Electric Bikes - What's up with all the sarcasm for electric bicylists?

One of the schools where I teach is perched on top of an 850-ft hill. It's not a huge hill by cyclists' standards, but it's steep in places, and can be a real disincentive for people who don't ride regularly to say "What the hell. I'm sick of trying to find a parking place; I'm gonna get a bike."

The city offers a rebate on electric-assist bikes, though, and I'm seeing more and more people take advantage of it.

So on my way up the hill, I get passed all the time by people using electric motor assist*. I'm always glad to see them. Maybe they're a student who wouldn't have made the leap to bike commuting without a little help on that hill. Maybe they're a professor who's been climbing that same hill for 40 years and is finding it harder lately, and they've damed well earned the right to a little technological assistance. Maybe they're recovering from an injury, and the motor allowed them to get back on the bike that much sooner without re-injuring themselves.

I don't care why they've got a motor on their bike. Thousands of people are driving their cars up that hill each day, and they're not. Who the hell am I to to quibble with them on the details?



* In the interest of full disclosure: I also get passed all the time on the same hill by people not using electric motor assist. I get passed by nuns in full habit on ancient penny-farthings, although there's quite a strong possibility that I'm making that part up.

I wish there were more of them. Standing on a pedestrian bridge (which I can't do anymore because they destroyed it), looking at the clogged freeway below, I had visions where all these single occupied cars would be replaced by bicycles. The electric bike is the path towards utopia.

And for what it's worth, if I purchased an Xtracycle or other cargo-hauling bicycle and was using it to haul a couple of children and a few bags of groceries around town on a regular basis, you can bet your butt that I would be throwing some kind of electric assist on there. Living car-free and performing many of the tasks for which we would usually choose a car is difficult to do on human power alone.

exactly. I wonder how many people who are willing to bash electric assist use their automobile to drive across the street to the grocery store. I don't have a stokemonkey, or any form of electric assist, but there have been times that I have been bumbling along at 5mph with a desk strapped to my xtracycle where it would have been very nice.

Walmart is now selling these electric assist bicycles.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5391437

http://i.walmart.com/i/p/00/69/40/27/61/0069402761463_215X215.jpg

$279.46 plus shipping.


When Currie first started producing their electric bike conversion kits they sold for more than the cost of this entire electric bicycle! I put a Currie kit on a neighbor's bike almost two years ago and it's still operating just fine. Currie produces a very good e-bike drive system.

To each their own, but there ain't a snowballs chance that I'll ever ride one of those things. If you do ride one, though, prepare to be ribbed. I don't see that changing.

Prepare to be ribbed. Hmmm, that's an interesting phrase :rolleyes:

I think the bias against them is largely based on the older models of electic bicycle- with SLA batteries, and heavy motors, you got a slow, impossible to pedal bike with a terrible range. Most people who actually rode, and knew that they were easily capable of longer-range rides at higher peak speed under their own power alone were understandably dismissive of the electric bikes.

More modern batteries and motors are slowly changing these images.

Echoing many people on this thread, i don't see a need for electric assist on my current fleet, but if i had an extracycle/cargo bike i would seriously consider it.

Not that it matters, but batteryspace.com and all-batteries.com are both DBAs of AA Portable Power Corp., 2700 Rydin Road, Unit C, Richmond, CA 94804. I have purchased headlight bulbs and a water bottle battery through batteryspace.com and was mostly satisfied with the goods.

True - but I think they're using different OEMs for at least their NiMH batteries; performance tests online mostly show that the all-batteries Tenergy ones outperform the batteryspace Powerizers. I don't know whether that's accurate overall or whether the testers just got better or worse batches - but I went with all-batt for rechargables just in case (though I've also bought chargers and other stuff from batteryspace, and been very satisfied.)

To each their own, but there ain't a snowballs chance that I'll ever ride one of those things. If you do ride one, though, prepare to be ribbed. I don't see that changing.

Prepare to be ribbed. Hmmm, that's an interesting phrase :rolleyes:
If you can't take a little good natured ribbing, you shouldn't be on two wheels on the road. It comes with the territory. :)

To answer the OP, the reason people make snide comments about your electric bike is because they don't have any manners. Ribbing from friends is to be expected, but from strangers it's just being rude.

If I ever went car-free I would buy an Xtracycle and a Stokemonkey. Feeding 2 adults, 3 kids, and husky-mix takes a lot of groceries and I ain't getting any younger. Heck, I want an Xtracycle just to ride the kids around on, it's looks like fun.

To answer the OP, the reason people make snide comments about your electric bike is because they don't have any manners. Ribbing from friends is to be expected, but from strangers it's just being rude.
I would never say anything to a stranger, that is rude. But I would sure be thinking some elitist things, like:
1) Isn't the bicycle efficient enough? -- either motor or bike, not both!
2) how lazy are you?
3) geez, what a puss!

Just being honest.

If you can't take a little good natured ribbing, you shouldn't be on two wheels on the road. It comes with the territory. :)

Good natured ribbing makes the world go 'round :)

How snobbish must one cyclist be to criticise another for finding a way to go faster and/or farther than he would otherwise go? Don't we all want more bikes on the road? I can't understand the similar attitude toward recumbents. :rolleyes:

Of course, I've been a fan of electric vehicles long before I picked up a bike. In fact, until the early months of 2006, I completely dismissed the idea of travel by bike. Instead, I was very interested in the all-electric cars on the market, including the slick, three-wheeled craft that could be registered as motorcycles. I think they're fun! (And still very environmentally friendly compared to combustion vehicles) Personally, I think car makers have deliberately suppressed the all-electric alternative. GM pulling the superb EV-1 or Toyota ending the RAV4-EV despite high demand for both are examples.

I would never say anything to a stranger, that is rude. But I would sure be thinking some elitist things, like:
1) Isn't the bicycle efficient enough? -- either motor or bike, not both!
2) how lazy are you?
3) geez, what a puss!

Just being honest.

1) What's wrong with both? I think it's a facinating idea - transportation that builds upon human power. For 20lbs, you can add 100-150 watts of power to your own 100-150 watts of power and do that for 30-50 miles.

2) Probably not nearly as lazy as a driver or a motorcyclist. When was the last time you saw a motorcyclists and thought "how, lazy are you?" When I'm out there on my e-bike, I'm pedalling as hard as I would on my regular bike most of the time. I just get more distance out of each stroke (and a little more breeze to keep me cooler).

3) I don't need to prove I'm Lance Armstrong when going to buy some milk. I don't need to spend more time in the cold and freezing rain than necessary if I'm going to be doing this day in and day out.

I do appreciate keeping your thoughts to yourself though. It makes for a more enjoyable bike ride.

I don't own an electric bike, and have no criticism for them or someone who does own one.

But if I saw one, I might crack a joke about it. My intention, if I did so, would not be to offend, but hopefully it would be a comment you could get a charge out of.;) :D

1) What's wrong with both?
I think the thing with electric bikes that I get hung up on is: it seems to me work ethic among society has gradually eroded in general. People don't want to "work" at anything. An example: kids today would rather play 8 hours of video games than going outside to ride a bike, play baseball, soccer, etc. How many obese kids are running around compared to 20-30 years ago? How many kids have motorized scooters when they could just as easily pedal a bike or, God forbid, use their feet to push the scooter.

Granted, there are exceptions, and you're probably one of them. And your right -- riding an e-bike is more ambitious than driving. As I said, I would never make a rude comment. But I'm sure there are e-bikers out there who see it as a way to not having to put forth the full effort. So, with me, e-bikers get more credit than motorists, but fall short of those who advance on pure pedal power.


2) Probably not nearly as lazy as a driver or a motorcyclist. When was the last time you saw a motorcyclists and thought "how, lazy are you?"
C'mon now -- that's apples and oranges.

C'mon now -- that's apples and oranges.

Not if they're being used for the same purpose.

Not if they're being used for the same purpose.
OK -- apples to pears.;)

C'mon now -- that's apples and oranges.

Hmm... so if I decide one day I was just too tired to e-bike it to work and decide to hop on a motorcycle (not that I have one) instead, I'm no longer considered lazy?

Sorry+ if he cant ride 3 miles in a land where it never even rains.... without a battery?


Hi Guys,

My room mate got one of those bikes a few months ago. The house is 3 miles from work location through dense residential streets with uphill all the way back. The motor and battery really do save him some sweating and he's been pretty happy with it (until recently, when he left the power on and accidentally drained the lead-acid pack). I suggested batteryspace.com for getting a new one. Any of you guy's have a suggestion about the best place to pick sealed batteries or if it's worth $200 for upgrading to NiCD or $350 for lithium to save weight?

Segways are cheating.

IIRC the bionx also allows you to recharge the battery by pedalling harder - that should shut up the people who claim it's wussy. If you only charge your battery through pedal power, what you're doing is trading the extremes of climbing, and recovering some of your braking power, for a 'cost' of some 20+ lbs (+$$). My wife likes riding her bike in the summer (no winter riding for her) but she hates the hill climbing. If I got her a BIONX rear wheel, it could probably solve that problem. I would definitely consider a bionx for that purpose or some combo of electric tricycle or electric bicycle + trailer for serious cargo hauling.

For my own two wheeler - I considered it - but the electric didn't seem to add any value for me (electric power + cost is offset by the extra weight of the bike - I have to lift my bike over my head to stow it). I would probably be faster with the electric, but I have a relatively short commute these days and shaving 5-10 min off the commute isn't worth the cost/lower conditioning.

Hmm... so if I decide one day I was just too tired to e-bike it to work and decide to hop on a motorcycle (not that I have one) instead, I'm no longer considered lazy?
People who regularly ride a motorcycle/car/truck obviously have a different mindset than those opting to ride a bike for transportation.

Look -- ride the hell out of your e-bike and enjoy it. You're obviously sold on it -- good for you. I gave you my answer to your original question of "why the sarcasm?" Some people look at it as a cop-out, some don't. If you're looking for universal acceptance from the cycling community, I don't believe that's going to happen. Life goes on...

If you're looking for universal acceptance from the cycling community, I don't believe that's going to happen. Life goes on...

Not overnight, nor even in a year, but threads like this one helps remove some of the myths and negative attitudes about e-bikes (I hope).

In China and other countries where bicycles are used more for transportation than recreation, the e-bike are more accepted. I think here in the US, biking is more recreational and if you use it as transportation, you're making a statement like "I'm fit enough or tough enough to make the trip by bicycle and not add to our world problems." And if you add a battery with that, you're kind of "cheating" to live up to that statement. Of course, I'm not saying everyone thinks that way. But that's the general perception I get.

I think the technologies in e-bikes have just recently (in the past 2 years) become advanced enough to make it a decent and practical biking alternative. I think you'll see a lot more of these things in the coming years as they continue to improve.

I've seen a stand-up gas powered scooter in the bike rack most days lately. The motor is the size of a weed wacker. I don't think he's adding to the green house gasses much more than me. Heck I'd be happy if we all drove 3 cylinder Citroen's to work instead of the 2-ton SUV's from Ford and GM.

Edit: That said, I don't see much advantage to scooters and electric assisted bikes over just a plain old bike. I mean what you add in horse power, I think you deduct in terms of weight versus efficiency. I'd challenge anyone with a moped to a race anyday with my light road bike.

2-stroke engines (weed whackers) are absolutely awful for emissions.

"advantage" is measured by each user's preference metrics. If a BionX adaptation extends the useful cycling radius of someone who's otherwise on the fence as a potential utility cyclist, {s**he's more likely to give it a try. No, a plug-in won't have the unlimited range of a bicycle, fueled only by PowerBars and Gatorade. But it will suffice for a lot of the short-distance runabout needs that account for the vast majority of automobile trips - 80% within 5 miles and driving solo, or whatever the statistic is.

I commute 15+ miles each way, every day year round, on my light road bike. But I don't use it for errands because I hesitate to lock it outside a store where it is vulnerable to vandalism. I would love for our family's fleet to include a BionX-equipped utility bike - simple and lockable and easier than our van to take around the corner or a couple of miles to Safeway or OSH or REI or PetsMart or the photo shop or... able to sustain a useful speed in traffic without needing to wear special shoes and sweat-proof clothes, and able to haul groceries (including gallons of milk) up the hill to home.

Edit: That said, I don't see much advantage to scooters and electric assisted bikes over just a plain old bike. I mean what you add in horse power, I think you deduct in terms of weight versus efficiency. I'd challenge anyone with a moped to a race anyday with my light road bike.

Scooters go pretty fast. I'd put my money on the scooter.

But for the e-bikes, on flat or downhill terrain, you'd win easily since most of them stop assisting at 20mph (mine starts to taper out at around 21).

My own personal bias is that if you are going to add power, you might as well step up to a real motorcycle.

My own personal bias is that if you are going to add power, you might as well step up to a real motorcycle.
This is the camp that I'm currently in, but if you ride an e-bike, scooter, or small dog to work or wherever you're going - more power to you. Who knows, when I finally get my Big Dummy from Surly, I could see myself looking into a stokemonkey assist, so I guess we'll see. (Nearly) anything is better than a 3000+ car moving less than 200 lbs of person/cargo.

Are you disabled?

Are you disabled? Are you a troll? What does it matter? The man rides a bike. Not a scooter, not a motorcycle, not a Moped, to work, thus he commutes. This is the commuting forum after all. He wanted to know why everyone had so much hate towards a fellow bike commuter. As it is we get enough hate from outside.

This is what it amounts to; If you are a cyclist and you are harassing someone for riding any variety of bike, KNOCK IT OFF. Who knows maybe eventually he will 'graduate' and ride a 'real' bicycle. Until then congratulate and encourage anyone you see on a bicycle.

Build it up.

Are you a troll? What does it matter? The man rides a bike. Not a scooter, not a motorcycle, not a Moped, to work, thus he commutes. This is the commuting forum after all. He wanted to know why everyone had so much hate towards a fellow bike commuter. As it is we get enough hate from outside.

This is what it amounts to; If you are a cyclist and you are harassing someone for riding any variety of bike, KNOCK IT OFF. Who knows maybe eventually he will 'graduate' and ride a 'real' bicycle. Until them congratulate and encourage anyone you see on a bicycle.

Build it up.

No.

According to this definition, he is infact not on a bicycle: "A bicycle, or bike, is a pedal-driven, human-powered vehicle with two wheels attached to a frame, one behind the other. "

http://www.reference.com/search?q=bicycle

So he should find another place for his posts.

No.

According to this definition, he is infact not on a bicycle: "A bicycle, or bike, is a pedal-driven, human-powered vehicle with two wheels attached to a frame, one behind the other. "

http://www.reference.com/search?q=bicycle

So he should find another place for his posts.
Quit being a prick.

An electric bike is still a bike.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bicycle

1) a vehicle with two wheels in tandem, usually propelled by pedals connected to the rear wheel by a chain, and having handlebars for steering and a saddlelike seat.

2) A vehicle consisting of a light frame mounted on two wire-spoked wheels one behind the other and having a seat, handlebars for steering, brakes, and two pedals or a small motor by which it is driven.

3) a wheeled vehicle that has two wheels and is moved by foot pedals

No.

According to this definition, he is infact not on a bicycle: "A bicycle, or bike, is a pedal-driven, human-powered vehicle with two wheels attached to a frame, one behind the other. "

http://www.reference.com/search?q=bicycle

So he should find another place for his posts.

I see. You either A. have no arguement excluding semantics or B. Don't think it is a bike.

IMO the OP does not utilize his bicycle with an optional electric assist as a dedicated scooter. If he did so he would more likely purchase a moped or any other variety of electric or fuel powered vehicle that would be much more efficient, and faster.

Since he is using it as a bicycle with an extra additional feature you need to realize not everyone can utilize a bicycle that is intended to go at a high rate of speed. At the moment it enables him to commute without using a car or walking. This has an array of benefits of which I would hope you would be aware, since you are in fact posting on a cycling forum.

This optionaly powered electric bicycle allows him to bridge the gap between being a pretentious ass in an SUV with a recycle sticker, to someone who is actually concerned about their selves, the environment and future generations well being.

Since you are discouraging any mindset that does this that is not yours, you are halting the growth of what may well be the pebble in the pond.

An electric bike doesn't hurt anyone. If you have ever complained about an automobile pilot who has honked at you for slowing them down, you have no right to say any single discouraging thing to someone. That cager wasn't impeded by your presence, nor are you by the OP's.

The moment you add non-trivial non-human power to a bike, you no longer have a bicycle but a motorcycle, moped or even "hybrid bike"--just not "bicycle."

This doesn’t necessarily imply anything about the person riding it—especially if the purpose is commuting. If it can save you gas $ and prevent the burning of petroleum, do whatever works for you. On the other hand, if you’re out for sport riding—an eclectic bike defeats the purpose of refining your physical fitness.

I haven’t seen all the different model’s, but my room mate has a Pacific brand. The thing’s a hog—it feels like about 100 pounds. I tried it one time and the 600 Watt electric motor really can go. However, if you’re not using the motor, it absolutely sucks as a bike. If you haven't done this, try an ultralight bike with clipless peddles.

The moment you add non-trivial non-human power to a bike, you no longer have a bicycle but a motorcycle, moped or even "hybrid bike"--just not "bicycle."

This doesn’t necessarily imply anything about the person riding it—especially if the purpose is commuting. If it can save you gas $ and prevent the burning of petroleum, do whatever works for you. On the other hand, if you’re out for sport riding—an eclectic bike defeats the purpose of refining your physical fitness.

I haven’t seen all the different model’s, but my room mate has a Pacific brand. The thing’s a hog—it feels like about 100 pounds. I tried it one time and the 600 Watt electric motor really can go. However, if you’re not using the motor, it absolutely sucks as a bike. If you haven't done this, try an ultralight bike with clipless peddles.
Again, this is the commuting forum.

Again, this is the commuting forum.
I was simply pointing out the pro's and con's of electric bikes. Personally I enjoy a good discussion, which is the purpose of most of my posts--I never intend for any of it to be taken personally. I don't feel like the above post is outside the realm of commuting discussion.

Hmm... so if I decide one day I was just too tired to e-bike it to work and decide to hop on a motorcycle (not that I have one) instead, I'm no longer considered lazy?
Depends on a motorcycle. :D

No.

According to this definition, he is infact not on a bicycle: "A bicycle, or bike, is a pedal-driven, human-powered vehicle with two wheels attached to a frame, one behind the other. "

http://www.reference.com/search?q=bicycle

So he should find another place for his posts.

Last time I checked, mine's pedal driven. Mine's about 50-100% human powered, depending on how fast I want to go. And it's got two wheels attached to a frame, one behind the other.

The moment you add non-trivial non-human power to a bike, you no longer have a bicycle but a motorcycle, moped or even "hybrid bike"--just not "bicycle."

This doesn’t necessarily imply anything about the person riding it—especially if the purpose is commuting. If it can save you gas $ and prevent the burning of petroleum, do whatever works for you. On the other hand, if you’re out for sport riding—an eclectic bike defeats the purpose of refining your physical fitness.

I haven’t seen all the different model’s, but my room mate has a Pacific brand. The thing’s a hog—it feels like about 100 pounds. I tried it one time and the 600 Watt electric motor really can go. However, if you’re not using the motor, it absolutely sucks as a bike. If you haven't done this, try an ultralight bike with clipless peddles.


You don't have to call it a bicycle. Maybe it's a transformer. When the assist is off, it's just a bike carrying a battery and a motor. When it's on assisting my pedaling, it then becomes a hybrid bike. When I feel like wasting my batteries, I can just hit a button, let my legs rest and it can push me long at 20mph and then it becomes a lame moped.

95% of the time, I use it as a hybrid-bike.
5% of the time, I use it as a regular bike

I've never used the moped mode except just to see how it feels. An electric bike without adding your own power is really senseless. You don't get much mileage per charge if you don't pedal. The whole point of electric bicycles is to combine human power with electric power.

I use mine mainly for commuting. But even if you use it for exercise, it's a perfect use for it. You'll end up pushing yourself as you normally would on a regular bike on level ground and you won't be over straining yourself on the hills. It's a more evened workout.

Most electric bikes today aren't 600 watt 100lb behemoths. Mine is only about 44lbs. When the batteries are dead, it's no different than a regular bike carrying a few books or groceries. Keep in mind, my bike used to be a normal bike. It wasn't the lightest of bikes, but it did weigh about 25 lbs (with all the commuting gear) and I do use clipless pedals.

Mine's about 50-100% human powered, depending on how fast I want to go.

Right, so let's get the mods to create a category called almost biking for you to post in.

So much for the all inclusive forum.

I simply don't see what all the fuss is about. Electric assist makes a lot of sense. I don't want it on any of my bikes, for a number of personal reasons. Other folks may have personal reasons for deciding that they do want it - more power to them. If electric assist gets more people riding a bike who otherwise would not choose to cycle, it sounds like an excellent idea to me. I believe that it does do this! That sounds like a win for bicycling and for reducing the environmental impact of how we recreate and/or get to work everyday.

And for what it's worth, if I purchased an Xtracycle or other cargo-hauling bicycle and was using it to haul a couple of children and a few bags of groceries around town on a regular basis, you can bet your butt that I would be throwing some kind of electric assist on there. Living car-free and performing many of the tasks for which we would usually choose a car is difficult to do on human power alone. What's more, calling the use of electric assist "cheating," is discouraging to people of smaller size and strength or reduced physical fitness due to injury, handicaps or illness. Changing the world can't happen unless we make alternatives accessible to everyone without making them feel as if they are lesser human beings for choosing electric assist. It's a big part of what makes car-free or car-lite living possible for many people, and that's not something to sneer about. It you're concerned about people "cheating" by not making the push on physical effort, you're in the wrong forum - that kind of sentiment might be appropriate in the Road Cycling forum. But we're in Commuting, here. It's not about a race, it's not about best times, it's not about getting a good workout. It's about getting to work and back on a bicycle and how to make that possible for as many people as possible.
+1
Thank you this was the best response yet.

I am also very surprised by all the negative comments. Think about it this way. Many people riding ebikes are people who might otherwise be driving. What ever the reason for choosing an ebike, would you rather have them driving a car or riding their e-bike. The negativism displayed here and on the roads is more likely to encourage them to move to driving a car than to keep with cycling. So even if you are so small minded that you can't see the reasons why others would chose to ebike, keep it to yourself so the rest of us can encourage more people onto cycles instead of autos.

Craig

I'm thinking responses would be much kinder in the car-free forum. I have no problem with electric assist, and the Stokemonkey varieties certainly are not mopeds. If I were to substitue a car you can bet I'd get an xtracycle and a Stokemonkey. My only concern would then be theft.

But even if you use it for exercise, it's a perfect use for it. You'll end up pushing yourself as you normally would on a regular bike on level ground and you won't be over straining yourself on the hills. It's a more evened workout.
uh? If you're going for exercise, I'd think a regular bike would be your ticket. Why would you want your workout to be "evened" all the time? It's a "work"out.

Has anyone hacked the controller software on a BionX or Stokemonkey or eBike (or whatever) to remove the 20mph top speed limiter? Another alternative would be to tell the BionX a smaller-than-correct wheel size, then ignore the controller's speedometer and odometer display and use your own cycle computer instead.

But I still get the snide remarks...
The fact is you are a success if you found something you like to do. People's snide remarks are about as important as whether or not they have clean underwear.

Enjoy yourself and be happy. It's nobody's business but yours.

Kudoos to anyone riding an electric bike in lieu of taking their car; a co-worker of mine is a little (well, a lot actually) overweight and rides one of those - gets him a little exercise and a lot of oxygen twice a day - can't be a bad thing, can it!

uh? If you're going for exercise, I'd think a regular bike would be your ticket. Why would you want your workout to be "evened" all the time? It's a "work"out.

You obviously haven't tried riding in an e-bike. Take one for a good 30 minute spin, read the following articles, and tell us what you think.

http://www.electricvehiclesnw.com/main/effort.htm
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/03/electric_bikes.php

And here's a good one that lists the advantages in general:

http://www.atob.org.uk/electricbikeadvantages.htm

Has anyone hacked the controller software on a BionX or Stokemonkey or eBike (or whatever) to remove the 20mph top speed limiter? Another alternative would be to tell the BionX a smaller-than-correct wheel size, then ignore the controller's speedometer and odometer display and use your own cycle computer instead.

Yes, I figured it out for Bionx. However, I found that on the 24V model, the controller can only max out at 24-25mph. I think the controller needs more voltage to spin this particular motor any faster. The 36V model probably has a higher limit.