Advocacy & Safety - An idea for defense against hostile motorists

This is a carbon fiber core, aluminum 7050 baseball bat. It is light as all get out. Maybe slightlier heavier than a large water bottle as one cyclist noted. Alittle duct tape will mount a water cage to the base of your down tube. Make sure you can bend that water cage to fit. I'd stick with T-ball sized bats. They won't protrude so much past the headset that they will interfere with your turning. It's good to even pull it out and wield it behind your back for protection from a tailgating motorist who may decide to bump you.

Fight or flight, I always try to avoid situations. The worst was today when I was riding alone on my new bike in the country and a car full of punks passed me waving gang signs and screaming at me. I ignored them but kept my eye on them (they were going in the opposite direction) and when they turned around I pedaled like mad to a fortunately nearby intersection, and I hid in the cotton feilds. I stayed there for about 15 minutes while they drove up and down the roads looking for me. My wife says I need to carry a phone, which would have been no real help. I am seriously considering getting a pistol. Sad but true.

Rednecks are evil and dangerous. I don't know if a pistol would really be any help against that lot either.

Chris

Originally posted by Chris L
Rednecks are evil and dangerous. I don't know if a pistol would really be any help against that lot either.

Chris

No help? The only reason a pistol wouldn't be any help is if you couldn't aim or use it properly. Sad that we have digressed to this level. Sounds like they were a pretty agressive lot to hunt you as they did. Sometimes you have no choice but to get as ugly as they are. If you shoot, shoot straight.

Sounds to me like the run-away-and-hide method worked reasonably well, and no-one got shot.

This is a paraphrase of something I read somewhere (I think in one of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)

Realising that discretion being the better part of valour, and cowardice being the better part of discretion, he valiantly hid in the cotton field.
:)

Originally posted by Allister
Sounds to me like the run-away-and-hide method worked reasonably well...

Well yeah, but do we really want to spend our lives running away and hiding from people? Seems to me that there is a point that it has to stop.

Hopefully no one will be shot but it is always the aggressor's choice as to whether they get shot. Simple solution: Don't be the aggressor.

A pistol sounds great.

That is, unless, the Rednecks are sporting one or more shotguns.

Unfortunately, I read a true account of a cyclist who survived being shot by Rednecks when he pulled out his pistol.

Don't give anyone a reason to kill you. Get a description of their car and license, and that cell phone to call it in. Yes, the image of you calling on your cell phone may be more effective than whipping out a pistol. For all they know, a police cruiser could be very near.

Some folks have discovered that, even with a very fast car, it's hard to outrun police radios and computers.

Originally posted by Bikideshi
This is a carbon fiber core, aluminum 7050 baseball bat...It's good to even pull it out and wield it behind your back for protection from a tailgating motorist who may decide to bump you.
I can't imagine a baseball bat protecting me from a motor vehicle who's driver has "decided to bump me." I think I would lose that one.

What kind of advice is this?

Originally posted by Pete Clark
A pistol sounds great.

That is, unless, the Rednecks are sporting one or more shotguns.

Don't give anyone a reason to kill you. Get a description of their car and license, and that cell phone to call it in. Yes, the image of you calling on your cell phone may be more effective than whipping out a pistol. For all they know, a police cruiser could be very near.

Pete is absolutely correct.

Having a gun and knowing how to use it is only 10% of a gun being effective for self-defense. Having the will to actually aim and pull the trigger with potentially deadly results is the other 90%. This is difficult to do without hesitation.

Let's say this gang drove by and made gang gestures and swore and threatened. Exactly when would it appropriate to take out a pistol and start shooting? When the motorists passed him? While the cyclist is waiting in the weeds watching the motorists drive back and forth?

In my opinion, a firearm is not a good choice of weapons because it gives so few defensive options, mainly being deadly force.

Originally posted by HardBall

Well yeah, but do we really want to spend our lives running away and hiding from people? Seems to me that there is a point that it has to stop.

'Spend our lives'?? Exactly how often does this situation arise in your neck of the woods? Seems to me that this event was noteworthy at least partly because of it's rarity. It's certainly never happened to me, and I've never found myself in a situation where I've felt the need to run and hide (nor pull a gun on anyone for that matter - as tempting as it may seem at times).

If such an emergency arises running away seems like a reasonably effective and perfectly reasonable technique, especially combined with a phone call to the local constabulary with the car's license plate number and a description of the occupants.


Simple solution: Don't be the aggressor.

Good advice.

Fighting fire with fire only makes a bigger fire.

Originally posted by HardBall
Well yeah, but do we really want to spend our lives running away and hiding from people? Seems to me that there is a point that it has to stop.

I'm sorry, but you don't end a fight by throwing another punch. I honestly think running away and hiding is the better option. What if the other guy's a better shot than you?

Chris

I think Pat was pretty clever. If he wasn't, he would probably now be eating through a straw in a hospital bed somewhere. Or worse!

It really does not pay to retaliate especially if it is a car full of drunk or drug-pumped weirdos. For one, they outnumber you, and two, they are armed with a 2-ton car! Use your bike to make your escape - everytime. By this, you are being clever, not cowardly.

:irritated + :irritated = :fight:
:cool: + ;) = :D

NO one said that Pat was being a coward, he is very smart for getting out of there.

I am not advocating the reckless use of firearms. The use of deadly force has to absolutely positively be the choice of last resort. One would not start shooting over annoying behavior. Not even threats unless they were acted upon.

I agree, trying to stay out of harms way and not escalate a situation is the best thing to do if you have that option.

I got the impression from Pat's post that they were actively trying to hunt him down. This is more than annoying behavior, it borders on assault. This is a great deal more serious than your average redneck with a smart remark or rude gesture. What do you do if they find you? Is there always enough time for the authorities to come and rescue you? If they don't the US Supreme Court has ruled they are not responsible to protect an individual and can not be held liable if they don't.

There are times when the options may be limited by the circumstances. It's better to be prepared than not.

Through the years we have been taught by the media and government how to be good victims. It just gets on my nerves when we (the good guys) have to continually alter our lifestyles because of the establishment's inabillity to handle the problem.

The most important question: When is defending one's self being the aggressor?

Originally posted by HardBall

There are times when the options may be limited by the circumstances. It's better to be prepared than not.

Through the years we have been taught by the media and government how to be good victims. It just gets on my nerves when we (the good guys) have to continually alter our lifestyles because of the establishment's inabillity to handle the problem.

The most important question: When is defending one's self being the aggressor?

A good, fair point.

Someone once said,"Good guys don't hide". Which is perhaps why there are not that many around.

Originally posted by Weasel


A good, fair point.

Someone once said,"Good guys don't hide". Which is perhaps why there are not that many around.

Sad but true! We just need to be careful out there and do what we have to do to avoid the idiots and rednecks.

It's so refreshing to be able to have a conversation with differing views that doesn't disintegrate into a shouting match or flame war. Looking forward to many more.

Imagine that, a bunch of adults playing together without fighting. Kudos to all!!

Be Safe!!

Even if one doesn't carry a baseball bat, a bicyclist often has a lot of tools close at hand that could be good for self-defense.

I currently have a metal clip that hangs on the front strap of my backpack. I sometimes carry my heaviest u-lock on that clip. I can reach over and release my u-lock with one hand. A good solid u-lock can make a decent weapon, and it has the advantages of being a> legal and b> something that doesn't raise any eyebrows when a bicyclist carries one around with them.

I carry my pepper spray in an empty pocket that I can get to with one hand. I deliberately don't keep it on my key ring. If I drop my pepper spray or have it knocked out of my hands, I don't want to lose my keys.

If I weren't using either of the above, I might carry my tire pressure gauge in my pocket. It's made of solid metal and thus can function like a kuboton.

The martial arts school that I go to has a street-survival orientation, but assumes that one will be on foot rather than, say, on a bike. But the bicycle adds so many variables into the mix (including, of course, the possibility of getting away quickly), that I half-seriously wonder if someone will ever tailor martial arts seminars to address the unique self-defense possibilities of bicyclists.

Originally posted by mike
In my opinion, a firearm is not a good choice of weapons because it gives so few defensive options, mainly being deadly force.
There is more to self-defense than using a firearm.

Look at the history of warfare, and of the success of the human race in general. Sheer might is always overcome by intellect.

;)

I've had a recent opportunity in our justice system to see a parade of people who stood their ground and got knives in the belly for their efforts.

I went out and rode on the same route where I had my adventure, because I had to prove to myself that it was a one in a million ocurrence. (And when you fall off the bike, the first thing to do is get back on) I don't like guns, so I got some pepper spray. The directions emphasized that a weapon is a last resort, so try to avoid problems by being aware of your surroundings ( that's what saved me) I appreciate everyone's concern, and hope that we all can enjoy our wonderful sport for many years to come.

One of the messy things about using a pistol for self-defense is that you can end up being cast into the role of perpetrator rather than victim.

You can imagine the testimony to police. "We were lost, and this local bicyclist looked like he knew the area, so we yelled out at him to get his attention to ask for directions. He didn't seem to hear us, so we turned around our car to ask him for directions. When we got out of our car, he pulled out a gun. And then without any provocation opened fire on..."

You might know that this is a lie, and perhaps your lawyer might be able to convince a jury that this is a lie. But it's risky. Especially since a person with a gun against someone "unarmed" is often perceived as an aggressor.

(Of course, the term "unarmed" is misleading, since a person doesn't need a weapon to cause you serious harm.)

Originally posted by Allister
Fighting fire with fire only makes a bigger fire.
I'm with Allister and Chris L. Conflict-avoidance will let you live longer. Using firearms escalates a bad situation into a deadly one. Relying on the "security" of a gun makes it less likely you'll use other options when you perceive a threat. The dilemna of firearms usage, as pointed out by others, is that it's only effective with timely use - i.e., you must react and not think. If Pat O'Malley had been a competent shootist packing iron would running and hiding been first choice?

Could a pistol really stop a car? I mean, if a psychopathic driver really decides they're going to take you down, would that really stop them? Personally, I think the best approach is to try not to provoke them into that sort of attack in the first place. Yes, I know a lot of them don't require provocation, but I'd rather worry about things I can control.

Chris

All this talk about pistols and bats! Has any of you ever had a gun pointed in your face? I seriously doubt it! Let me tell you this, it ain't no fun. It's not some ****ing little joke! When a stranger points a gun at you, do you think he's just trying to scare you? We are talking about killing someone! Talking about it as non chalantly as some of you have is pretty funny. You haven't got a clue...

It's sad that Pat had to hide in a field but that is exactly what he had to do and it was the right thing to do. He's still alive because he used his brain. You kill to defend your family, your home, your freedom, not because somebody looked at you the wrong way. Someone is gonna argue that his freedom to use the road was violated and we can't live our lives in fear and on and on and on...Bull****! We don't live in fear from day to day. Isolated incidents are the wrong rationale to use for going out and getting a gun.

Let's say he did pull out a gun and it scared them away. They would have been back in a heart beat truly hunting him down. If not that day, then the next or the next. Then you would be living in fear. Because ignorant little punks are just that. Ignorant! In their puny little minds they would be obligated to "retaliate" even though they were the aggressors in the first place. Pretty sad but true.

I'm not an anti gun person by the way. I've had several and enjoyed using them in a recreational manner (skeet, targets, blowin' stuff up, etc..). It's what an idiot with a gun can do that bothers me. Though most of us are in the right frame of mind most of the time, there are those times when having a gun around is just plain scary. Someone is gonna get hurt or killed and it may be someone you love...

Ah well..time to go for a ride :D

If you do carry a gun, keep it concealed. DO NOT use it to threaten anyone, in hopes that it will scare them away.

If you have to pull it out your situation should already be at the point that you are going to kill or maim to protect your's or another's life.

Its your right to keep and bear arms for that purpose and thats what pistols are designed for.

I have no need for anything like that where I live (eastern NC). If I did I would move or quit riding. A gun would not be an option in this scenario for me... although I own several.

I hope you reported this incident to the police.

#1: carrying a concealed weapon is a FELONY, unless you have a federal permit to do so. These permits are typically given only to police, bodyguards, etc.
#2: What are you going to shoot? The BACK of the idiot after he hits you? That is called MANSLAUGHTER, another felony.
#3: If a pistol is chambered, it can DISCHARGE ACCIDENTALLY!
This is called RECKLESS ENDANGERMENT, which is also a felony.
#4: Bats weigh too much, and are too large to carry.
#5: If you need protection, a small can of pepper spray is the most effective weapon you can carry, and has the least chance of getting you into trouble for doing something stupid.
Unless you are planning on getting into a rumble, leave the weaponry at home!!
:fight:

Well I support the ride like hell and hide scenario. Vehicles can't go where bikes can. If they get out of the car, the drivers are slower than the bikes are.
Failing that, I suggest a small turret for a light and easy automatic weapon. I wouldn't leave the firearm there all the time but have the turret installed and keep the weapon where it's easy to reach.;)
I don't suggest this idea for anyone in Canada though. However, I've never seen a paintball gun mentioned in any weapons legislation.
I'm reminded of a movie I saw a while back about a semi-truck that was terrorizing Joe citicen in his station wagon. It was Speilberg's Duel (http://us.imdb.com/Details?0067023).

It's easy to get a permit in Texas to carry a concealed weapon. And it is not uncommon in the rural areas to see a pickup with a rifle in the gunrack. But I am not gonna get a gun. I will try be aware of potential dangers, and make do. Statistically, there is a much better chance of getting hit by a careless motorist. Biking is a dangerous activity, compared to other forms of recreation or transportation, but it's worth the risk. Life is risk.

Peter- I was meaning it not as a real defense, but as a way to increase the number of hit points involved for the driver should he hit you. I derived this more from an Aikido techique where you strike just to get your partner to flinch so you can apply a hold, etc. Drivers are still humans with reflexes, nomatter what they think of themselves. Reflex is quicker than thought. So if you get them to flinch, that gives you a few seconds more to clear out of the way. This technique is called 'atemi.' Most of my suggestions with the bat involve daylight city traffic, inwhich most conflicts between cyclist and car are intimidation tactics. I have better suggestions for the bat and I will give them. I posted it like that as to not appear as a 'terrorist' (how drivers conveniently see me- lacking much in the way of contact with other cyclists I watered down the post. This actually is the best legal idea I have for defense against drivers in Ohio. For some reason guns are illegal to carry on a bike here. My friend from Cleveland who rode messenger there said that projectile weapons are illegal here. I did pull the bat and raise it behind me when some *** was speeding in the righthand lane and raised it behind me. Most of my strategies evolved out of using the only available items in a time pressured situation. Then, anything is fair game. No way in hell I had time to jump the curb then. The nice thing about the bat is that you don't have to aim it. I can pull that thing out quickly. Due to the way it is mounted, the driver doesn't often see I have it. They arrogantly do something which usually involves trying to hit me. I then can pull that sucker to take out a window if need be. For rear attacks, I'd recommend something more along the lines of a grenade.
With the bat, though, I can more casually pull it out, without bystanders call the cops, etc. The strength of the bat is sufficient. Having impaled numerous potholes with my 7000 aluminum rims- sometimes at 15 mph with tires inflated to 120 psi and only getting minor bends, I have justifiable faith in some aluminum grades. If you want data on the tensile strength of various materials, checkout the following site: http://www.matweb.com/ Most good grades of aluminum have strength to bear some 70,000 pounds of pressure per square inch!!!. Infact, here is the info on 7050 aluminum: http://www.matweb.com/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnum=MA7003&group=General
My raised road rims are great!! The only problem is they crack over a span of years due to the brittleness of the material! This is why you can really fork out lots of money for good aluminum bike parts!! Aluminum of the 7000 series is stronger than aluminum 6061. If you really want to know how durable your bike is, check out this site!!
Carbon fiber is apparently stronger in some composites. Check matweb under the heading thermoset polymers to find carbon composite fiber info. Here's the strength for BP Amoco's carbon composite: Tensile Strength: Ultimate, MPa 930 134,885 psi
So don't think this is some flimsy bat. Oh, and where you strike is important! The book, Urban Cycling Tricks and Tips says that the most vulnerable part of the windshield glass is as shown on the enclosed diagram.
I like the study of Aikido and other martial arts. If simply, to learn concepts you can cross apply, such as striking vulnerable points. Practicing with a stick/wooden sword in Aikido builds up the arm muscle and coordination needed to successfully use a weapon like this in a real attack. Practicing specific possible defenses will program in muscle memory the response you will need to survive. I have had the urge to practice jousting with padded implements to get a better feel of how to maintain control of the bike while taking some force from a hit. This training isn't in vain if you ride the city where minor combat is more the norm, since most can't kill you without getting caught. They can try to do manipulative things to bump you out of the way. They figure if they can just make it look like it was your incompetance, they can get away with it. Unfortunately, this is true. The maintainer of the critical mass hub website has his own page at www.michaelbluejay.com. He talks in his section on police, on how often the law sides with the stupid lies drivers will come up with. One such lie is often, "Oh, I didn't see him!!" For some really hard core techniques on dealing with psychotic drivers, this imaginative work of fiction takes defensive cycling to new levels: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mjh/spike.html#precursor (Thermite is real, by the way- it melts through carbon steel and even asphalt- check out the following site on how to make it at http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/ka_****ing_boom/thermit2.html (I am not responsible for any misuse of this data!!!) An ex-military messenger aquaintence of mine, mentioned the viability of thermite. I think that you would need a magnet and some of those little snap and pop fire cracker type things to get it to stay on the car and ignite. It's amazing it's made with aluminum and iron filings- something many bike wrecks create!!!
The original unedited version of Spike Bike is available at: http://www.nowhere.net/~raster/bicyclist/Spike_Bike/
The next site has more Spike stories: http://users.aol.com/clubnbc/spike_14.htm

To D*Alex- This bat is not heavy!!! I showed this to some guy who uses a lightweight racing bike and other spandex-titanium types and they were amazed at how light it was. The former guy said, "This is only alittle heavier than a water bottle." Go to a store and pick one up. Just make sure it is an aluminum bat with a carbon fiber core and not a wood core. The wooden cored ones are the ones people used for baseball when I was young. Carbon fiber is very light though. Some guy with a carbon fiber ATM smoked my Trek 1200 aluminum alloy road bike, with 120 lbs of pressure in the tires and 23 mm wide tires. This guy had big knobby tires on his bike, and still 'smoked' me going up hill!

I think that also, the nice thing about the bat, and other non-hand gun type defenses, is that they keep your neck out of legal hot water. I don't have to raise the bat to strike even to have it work. If someone is copping and attitude about having to use the left hand lane to get around me, and tries to side swipe me in revenge, I can hold the bat parallel between his car and me to guard my torso if he gets to near. It will get their attention, no doubt. I concieved of the bat idea after getting into so many close calls where I was almost having to use my pump to defend myself, I decided to risk extra weight to save the $ on a new pump. Infact, one day, some kids in an SUV decided to have alittle fun by plowing the cyclist. They were drunk or something. Well, they sped up to force me to exit the right hand lane for the side of the road. The problem was that I was going around 17 mph and there was only a slight bit of shoulder left before the shoulder ended in a concrete curb. If I tried to make it into that enclave, I would have hit a 7 inch high curb. This part of the shoulder was designed for a bus layover point. Naturally pissed about the near disasterous conclusion to my ride, I used a messenger type skid to augment my brake's stopping power. I was really angry too, so I though if I raised my pump and kept it as close to their passenger side mirror, that I might take some of the pleasure out of this stunt! It worked almost uncannily well since one of the monkeys was hanging out the passenger side window leering at me when I did. The dumbfounded look on this arrogant asses face was worth the near sacrifice of my Zefal pump! So, alittle shaken up, I realized why my Cleveland messenger friend said that it was worth the extra weight he carried with his frame mounted pool cue. This bat is lighter and stronger than any pool cue. One time he had to use his cue against a harassing pickup truck. The people in it were trying to clip him from the side. He used it as a broad sword and cut through the bars holding the rear view mirror on their car. Such measures must be taken in redneck land. Some of the newer trucks and cars may have various grades of aluminum on parts such as mirror bars, etc. Use the best judgement for your situation, I guess. I can still do some serious miles with the bat in tow. The only place I notice it is on very steep hills. I live in a hilly place and it doesn't inconvenience me, much. As long as I keep my tire pressure high, weight doesn't really matter to much.

Oh, one of the suggestions made by a bike shop worker from the West Coast, was wouldn't it be great if you could create an oil slick behind you? Obscuring the windshield of a pursuing vehicle would be the best and most innocent(?) way of escaping. Egg whites in breakable ziplock baggies would be pretty adhesive. I have even carried eggs a few miles with my bike, jumping off one curb, and only breaking one egg as a result. By no means do any of this unless it is a do or die situation. I just know that having a few ideas on how to handle crisis before they happened is the only reason I am alive now. Like one book said, always be looking for an escape route. Atemi ususally buys me the time I need to avoid most injury.
Also, I was contemplating some kind of smoke bomb type thing to evade an armed thief attacker. Martial arts such as Aikido which utilize an opponents center of gravity against them work for thieves. Ofcourse, this is an entire subject in and of itself.

Psycho drivers, SUV's and bike thieves, oh, my!!!
Psycho drivers, SUV's and bike thieves, oh, my!!!

Whoops- this was supposed to be posted in reply to the article on aggressive drivers. Sorry, for my error!

I mean no offense bikideshi, but you either live in a war zone or you seem to bring out the worst in drivers. Do you really encounter that many hostile people? I feel extremely sorry for you if biking is just a step away from death everytime you venture out.

I also mean no offence, but with an attitude like yours, Bikideshi, do you think that might be a contributing factor toward some of your problems? I seem to be getting less abuse than I did three years ago, and I've never resorted to the sort of tactics you describe here.

Chris

I never said that I actually use them on a daily basis. Geeze!!! I've seen one kid get hit. A friend of mine saw a messenger die. Drivers aren't nice to each other. Mostly what I get is drivers who do as one bike commuting book says they do- they try to intimidate you with threats of violence so you will always give way to them. I see it more as a power issue. If I make a threat back, (and I have only threatened!!!!!) then they don't like that. That I will stand up to intimidation when intimidated, is a better description. I include the info I do so that there will be people who survive them when they take it a step further. Ya know, we have the right to use the road, anyway. So I don't think sometimes it's appropriate, when it's 20 degrees warmer than the normal average, that I should wait 12 hours behind a parked car for all the commuters to go home. I don't have the option of riding the sidewalk here, since it is illegal. Sometimes when I am late, and feeling bitter from wasted hours behind parked cars I will try to take the lane. I will get up to speed and use atemi to keep them off my back long enough to get up to speed. Whether I do this or not they always try to send the not so subtle message, "get off the road or die." I'm not talking asking drivers to wait in 35mph lanes when I am going 10 mph. I use a good road bike and I will take the lane in 25 mph zones, etc. Period. I can keep up to speed. It still annoys the heck out of the drivers, since I am on a bicycle! Most of the ignorant nitwits see two wheels and go nuts. They assume I'm on a 50 pound bike and am just getting in the way to annoy them. They don't want to give it a chance. What's worse, is that the amount of drivers in this town with basically no real public transit, is going thru the roof. Urban sprawl is a big issue here, and many studies have linked it to increases in aggressive driving. The problem is not their 2 hour commute, and congested freeways, it is those dumb cyclists who want to ride on the sidestreets they have to use at excessive speeds. All this they do to avoid the natural consequences of their violent controlling behavior. I am like one of the few cyclists left in this town, and it is really becoming too dangerous to do. The hills demand that one has a good bike, thus thieves will take special notice to any cyclist. They think they'll get 2 grand off you cuz that's been the type of bikes up to the hills and the midwestern drivers. We have no trains or subway and there are no cross town busses. This would make a market for bikes. Anyone who buys bikes becomes the bandaid for the socio economic problems of this town. So fast bikes get stolen. No one sees them used. They see one cyclist on a bike going fast. They think they are some super powerful lunatic. That makes it all the more lucrative to punish, this nut whose taking the road. The blacks collude with it, cuz they know nothing about environmental issues and are roped up with so many other problems, they don't care. So they will laugh at the cyclist being attacked by the motorists. They want to drive, too. This town lives in a dreamworld, since the reality of bikes and good public transit doesn't happen here. Everyone has the secret modus operandi of wanting to drive, and not being inconvenienced while doing it. It is breaking the cities infrastructure. Smog makes people drive further out. Urban sprawl is being funded by the tax payers. Road building, sewer building, etc. is expensive. The morons who run city council won't say no to the people who push for funding for the infrastructure to provide for their 'drive the SUV 45 miles round trip a day' diet. Social programs are getting cut out here. It's become a hostile dog-eat-dog situation. The blacks don't see the luxury homes creeping up on farm land, but think it's the fault of the whites who are too busy biking. This forces you to fight to keep your bike, especially if it's your only asset left. There's nothing left here but a bunch of scared lemmings who will drag us all off the cliff until they understand the problems and are willing to accomodate changes. There is a sense of entitlement about driving here, which is worse than in other cities, for the reasons I've mentioned. There are also little in the way of bike lanes and other such accomodations. This certainly increases competativeness on the part of the drivers. I do have one bottom line, though- driving is expensive and the idea that it has become mandatory here, particulary with global warming, should be an issue of concern. Not just here, but everywhere. If drivers were so nice, how come they are increasing the costs of insurance by causing wrecks through careless driving. Gee, not only am I not allowed to ride a bike, unless it's on some useless park trail. There is mass denial about climate warming in this town of the automobile.

I must say that when I'm out on the road riding hard and suddenly am threatened for whatever reason (monster SUV, cellphone swerver) the ol' adrenaline gets pumpin and I'm not in much of a mood to go hide somewhere. The combination of the threat and the physical activity seems to really get my angry - which is probably not a good thing.

I personally feel the police are completely useless. I think advocacy groups have to be taken to a new and maybe global level. If a bicyclist is threatened in Texas then the combined resources of the network will move to protect him/her. There have to be consequences for these things. Zero tolerance.

A can of pepper spray against a truck full of drunk/drug induced rednecks or gangbangers... WHAT are you smoking? That stuff will just p*$$ them off and make the situation worse.

Getting a permit to carry in the USA is easy (thank God) unless YOU ARE A FELON. Get one and take this issue seriously IF your life is really threatened (I assume that Pat's story is true) one should take that sort of event very seriously. There are some real mean/sick people in this world.

If you can't figure out how to carry a multi-safety automatic without discharging it you need fundamental training before buying one... but they are quite easy to master.



Originally posted by D*Alex
#1: carrying a concealed weapon is a FELONY, unless you have a federal permit to do so. These permits are typically given only to police, bodyguards, etc.
#2: What are you going to shoot? The BACK of the idiot after he hits you? That is called MANSLAUGHTER, another felony.
#3: If a pistol is chambered, it can DISCHARGE ACCIDENTALLY!
This is called RECKLESS ENDANGERMENT, which is also a felony.
#4: Bats weigh too much, and are too large to carry.
#5: If you need protection, a small can of pepper spray is the most effective weapon you can carry, and has the least chance of getting you into trouble for doing something stupid.
Unless you are planning on getting into a rumble, leave the weaponry at home!!
:fight:

I like Gandhi's approach, better. Martin Luther King Jr. used it with great success in the United States. "Nonviolent resistance."

:thumbup:

I agree with *WildHare* and ChrisL, maybe something you are doing is provoking motorists, or at least upping the ante. Let's face it, in traffic we are the vulnerable ones. Sure you can keep your place in the lane, and not be intimidated, but sooner or later you might have to back down, or the consequences will be serious. It's only natural that if someone sees you acting aggressively they will act the same way. There is a difference between aggressiiveness and assertiveness.

Baseball bats and pool cues are bad enough, but I can't believe some of the options presented, such as oil slicks, and thermite bombs. That's going way beyond acting defensively.

Thank god I don't live in an area like yours, if that is the only way you can protect yourself.

Sorry to burst your bubble bikedeshi dude, but an aluminum bat and a U-lock and various other items will not protect you from a weapons charge if you use them as weapons. People have been charged on weapons charges in addition to assault for hitting people with umbrellas, bats and so forth. And even if you don't hit a person, if you brandish it in a threatening manner and do some property damage, don't be surprised if some DA decides to make a lesson of it.

This thread is getting out of hand, and as the admin of the forums, I am closing this thread until further notice.

When I hear the words bicycle advocacy, I think of waving to others, educating the public, helping out new cyclists, being a general ambassador to the cycling community. When i heard the words bicycle safety, I think of riding on the right side of the road, wearing a helmet (personal opinion), using lights at night etc...

What is comes down to, is the focus of this forum is to promote cycling as a lawful and legal form of transportation. Not how to brake car windows if they cut you off and other forms of malicious behavior.

I hope you all understand why I have closed this thread. If you have any questions, PM or email me.