Mountain Biking - The shimano nightmare is here...XT goes down the drain

Hi all...

Take a good look at this...
http://www.singletrackworld.com/article.php?sid=1035

Unfortunately my favourite group XT goes down the drain with shimano new innovations :( :crash: . Anyway say goodbye to the excellent 4pot discbrakes...goodbuy to the good hubs....

The only thing I really can't stand there is the rapid rise bit. Well, that and the fact that none of my current stuff will work with any of it. Details I guess.

Originally posted by math2p14
Hi all...

Take a good look at this...
http://www.singletrackworld.com/article.php?sid=1035

Unfortunately my favourite group XT goes down the drain with shimano new innovations :( :crash: . Anyway say goodbye to the excellent 4pot discbrakes...goodbuy to the good hubs....

Well, my new scoot (should arrive in another month or so) will have full XTR. Given the fact that I've not used them, I am full of anxiety regarding the new STI-type shifter/brake levers and rapid-rise. I will give a FULL review once I get the bike, and have several miles under my XTR belt.

I've never had a bike with full XTR, so this is a big jump for me. However, if I don't like them, I'll sell them on ebay and buy the 02 rear deraileur, shifters and brake levers. I've decided that I'm going to be happy regardless of the cost!!! :o

Those SRAM triggers better be really good. Because theres no way I'm switching to flippy shifts. I like the splined disc interface idea and the new style bb, but those shifters gotta go.

Time to start shopping close-out deals for current XT components for spare parts!

I don't like the look and I definately don't like the integrated shifters! Don't even get me started on their splined hubs.

I like Shimano's 2002 XTR line-up. Maybe it's time to consider SRAM.

L8R

A2 whats your beef with the splined hubs? Aside from the fact that its a shimano deal right now it really is a pretty good idea. I mean it makes rotor swapping easier and motorcycles have the same system on them where the rotors are pinned to some arms which are then connected to the hub. If motorcycles use that system it cant be bad. The Hollotech cranks are also inovative since they're much easier to instal(they install like an aheadset) and stiffer. My only beef with that is the fact that if they do like they did with this years XTR and only offer 1 length i'm gonna be pist. DOnt know what say about the shifter/brake levers.........................................

That would make my idea of getting the current Shimano XT set a plus!!!! Can you say big-ass-internet-sales. woohoo!

Arg...what to do...I will wait I am hoping shimano will give two options for shifters and I just won't use the whole rear end...hmmm...I don't use xtr and will never pay for saint for I am hoping it doesn't trickle to lx (at least the whole rear hub idea)

originally posted in the link

The hubs now have Shimano's "we know there's an ISO standard, but we'll ignore it" splined fittings

:rolleyes: Ain't that the truth

Hey guys, maybe it's a conspiracy. Shimano had so much of the offroad market that there were whispers of anti-trust suits and the like, so they needed a plan to cut back their sales without facing a scandalous court situation, so they started pissing off half of their customers, and once they have serious competition, especially in the manufacturer contracts, they'll go back to quality products *gasps for breath*

maybe

But this is good for n00b riders like myself. Buy the older XT components and save some $$$. Ill stay away from their brakes though, im looking into Hope or Margura disc brakes.

I just don't like the proprietary method of technological advancements.

Kudos to companies like TruVative, Chris King, and Race Face who got together, created the ISIS standard for bottom bracket design and offered it for EVERYONE to use! More competition, better prices!

L8R

Originally posted by a2psyklnut
I just don't like the proprietary method of technological advancements.

Kudos to companies like TruVative, Chris King, and Race Face who got together, created the ISIS standard for bottom bracket design and offered it for EVERYONE to use! More competition, better prices!

L8R

yeah and it thoseguys were the onlyones supplying bikes parts there'd be 80% less people cycling because no one would be able to afford to.
5 flaming chillies to Shimano and their innovative approach. Keep the quality coming

Originally posted by troie
But this is good for n00b riders like myself. Buy the older XT components and save some $$$.

That's sound reasoning except that since Shimano is apt to trickle down the technology to lower-cost components, as you wear down your current components you'll start to run into a wall in terms of availability of the beloved older stuff. An extreme case of this is DeoreXT thumbshifters.

Originally posted by TimB
yeah and it thoseguys were the onlyones supplying bikes parts there'd be 80% less people cycling because no one would be able to afford to.
5 flaming chillies to Shimano and their innovative approach. Keep the quality coming

Hmmm... last I checked, many products from those companies were pricepoint compatible with Shimano.

an excellent opportunity for SRAM if you ask me.

Shimano makes good xc parts. I don't put much trust in their products for anything I try to do...except that deore deraileur :D

Originally posted by khuon
That's sound reasoning except that since Shimano is apt to trickle down the technology to lower-cost components, as you wear down your current components you'll start to run into a wall in terms of availability of the beloved older stuff. An extreme case of this is DeoreXT thumbshifters.


I know what you mean, wheres all the inexpensive 8spd parts? ugh...

Originally posted by TimB
yeah and it thoseguys were the onlyones supplying bikes parts there'd be 80% less people cycling because no one would be able to afford to.
5 flaming chillies to Shimano and their innovative approach. Keep the quality coming

What planet are you living on? For the Price of XTR, you can get a low end hardtail or a decent used bike. There will be a price increase on XT as well. Innovative definately not, becoming trust, definately.

Shimano sucks. There are two parts on my bike made by them... if they weren't so damn cheap I can assure you they wouldn't be there at all.


Hubs + Front derailler... both satisfactory...

deore disc brakes are pretty sweet for the $$$.

Originally posted by nismo400
deore disc brakes are pretty sweet for the $$$. Be better off with Avid Mechs IMHO

Be better off with Avid Mechs IMHO

i tried those before i bought the deores and there is no comparison. the feel of a real hydraulic brake will NEVER be matched by mechanical. i will admit that the avids work ten times better than other mechs. After trying the Deores i knew i couldn't be happy with the avids.

Sounds like PerformanceBike's gonna get much of my business this year in their XT sales. :p

xt disc

SRAM. Way forward. Bootiful rear mech. None better. I agree with what jim311, I keep what's left of Shimano on my bike because it was factory fitted and it's cheap enough to leave it for the time being. Next opportunity though...

Originally posted by danka24
What planet are you living on? For the Price of XTR, you can get a low end hardtail or a decent used bike. There will be a price increase on XT as well. Innovative definately not, becoming trust, definately.

Planet Earth at the moment but if this lunacy continues i'llhave to consider refueling my rocketship an fly away to Mars. Plenty of unridden trails there yo know.

Shimano make other groupsets besides XTR you know....
Deore, Doere LX, all Excellent components for the money.
And for the money XTR can't be beat.
Their hubs are cheaper than Hope, DT or Chris King. They're lighter than all except the new DT Hugi 240S hubs which licence Shimanos centre lock disc rotor technology. Cracking hubs those!

And who competes with the big S at the middle and bottom of the market??

Lets be reasonable, You may not like Dual Control or rapid rise but you have to give credit where it's due. Shimano is King of MTB components. But of course you're always free to choose someones else's components. But calling high quality components crap just because you don't like Shimano/the japanese/rapid rise/dual control (choose as appropriate) is rather silly:beer:

Originally posted by TimB
Lets be reasonable, You may not like Dual Control or rapid rise but you have to give credit where it's due.

I would guess that most people who don't like the new STI shifters haven't even tried them. Shimano bashing seems to have come into vogue lately. On the other hand, I have some on order, so I'm hoping that I'll like them! I will also give a full report with pix! :D

I don't have anything AGAINST the new shifter style except for the fact that I didn't ASK Shimano to give me another option. I liked Rapidfire just fine. Why give the consumer something he didn't ask for? Shimano may be the "King" of MTB components, but only because for the longest time they've been at the top of the food chain financially. It's like Cannondale's motocross line trying to compete with Honda. Honda is financially superior and has more experience. It's the same with the MTB components. Shimano is MASSIVE, and up until now not many companies have had the financial backing to even TRY and compete, which is why Shimano has been able to get away with making many sub-par components for so long. Now that they've got so much competion they're trying to make parts that ONLY work with their own. Even if their components WERE the best on the market (Which they aren't in my opinion with the exception of a few of their designs) I still wouldn't buy them because they don't work with everything ELSE that's out there. There's an international standard for a REASON!

Did anyone ask for Rapidfire? Don't get me wrong, I don't like the STI levers and the "total integration" approach (and I've got a fair amount of riding and wrenching time on the new stuff). Just because there's no one requesting the STI levers for mountain doesn't mean Shimano should just keep cranking out the old stuff.

Jim311 summed it up nicely.

I also wonder if Big S don't deliberately build imcompatibility into their product range? I don't think the technological advances in their products make that 100% necessary and it certainly is not desirable. But by doing so, they eventually lock us out which means if we want to upgrade, we now have to think of multiple component swap outs when all we wanted to do was replace a link in the chain!

There are other options to replace the 'link in thechain' if need be.
It seesm the biggest problem is the shift lever and disc brake integration. Some want touse the Shimano shifters but want to run their own brakes ie Hope or Magura or Formula, (Insert brand here).

Even so, I don't see what all the *****ing is about. Replacement components for M950 XTR or M750 XT will still be available for the next 2yrs AT LEAST.

Would you prefer Shimano consult you first before improving theri range of products?
Why should they?
They're a business, with people to employee. To survive they make new products to keep them at the top of the market.
This whole arguement is stupid.
If you don;t like the new shifting the don't buy it. There are alternatives. Most who are *****ing would probably not buy it anyway.

The New Shimano range of components are here to stay.

All I see on this forum is a huge resistance to change. Are these changes for changes sake? Perhaps, but all the changes are a step forward in terms of performance;
ergonomics
shifting precision
weight reduction
Disc brake performance
Crank Stiffness


As for Shimano Saint, all I see there is a sensible offering for freeriders based on the needs of that type of riding.
Stronger hubs and bearings, ultra stiff crnak assembly, large discs for stopping those heavy bikes, use's dual control XTR shifters o XT which ever you se and the derailluer is a clever design.
whats the problem

Nice Tim. You just said what i've been wanting to say for a while, but i just didnt care to write that much...............................:beer:

Aside from that though, i like all of the new XTR stuff and havent ridden the STI shifters to know to sh*ts about them. Jim what Shimano component bugs you so much to the point that you bug the whole company? Their LX and XT lines are great and far above the lower end SRAM offerings in the same component :crash: :crash:

Personally I like Shimano products. I'm currently running full XTR on my bike, full XT on my wife's.

It's Shimano's Mine, Mine, Mine, attitude I don't like.

I've used their new shifters/levers and don't like them. Not because the don't work well, they do. But like mentioned, I want to use my own brake levers. Now what? The new XTR line doesn't include a seperate shifter pod. Also, costs! My word the new dual control levers are expensive. What happens when you crash and break a lever? You can't brake or shift in order to limp home. Also, instead of replacing just a lever for $50, I've got to buy a whole new dual control assembly.

I think all the development is great, but keep more options available. If you're going to the dual control for all your race bikes, great! But please also provide a seperate shifter for those of us without a team mechanic and on a limited budget, that want to run a different brake.

If you produce a brake system with an integrated hub, Great! But also provide a ISO 6-bolt rotor that'll work with your system.

If you produce a new crank with an integrated bottom bracket, Great! But also produce your chainrings in a 5 bolt pattern for compatibility with other cranks.

If you produce a new splined bottom brackett, Great! But allow the spec to be available to the other crank manufacturers for compatibility instead of having to buy a new bb as well!

L8R

Originally posted by TimB

As for Shimano Saint, all I see there is a sensible offering for freeriders based on the needs of that type of riding.
Stronger hubs and bearings, ultra stiff crnak assembly, large discs for stopping those heavy bikes, use's dual control XTR shifters o XT which ever you se and the derailluer is a clever design.
whats the problem

Do you freeride tim? Do you know large groups of freeriders? I don't know too many that like thre proprietary look of saint. I have anounced my conerns before and while some have been remedied there are still a few left that will have to be fixed before saint will be excepted as a freeride gruppo

1 - Cost - this is the biggest thing. For the cost, in canadian, of the xtr gruppo I can create a full xt with raceface bb/cranks, hayes brakes and a few types of hubs as well as an evil chainguide. Crap you might even be able to swing a mavic321d wheelset as well but I would have to look further. Freeriders are inherently cheap because a) we go through many parts quickly by bashing them into things b) Our bikes generally cost post 5000$ for a dually.
2 - Integrated shifter/brake - won't work for freeriding. Period. End of storey. I have tried them. Very few freeriders like SRAM's grip shift and this is worse. I am not even going to mention the 500$ canadian price tag on the frickin lever alone. While for now we can use xt and lx shifter assembly that will be weeded out in the next few years which is where my concern lies. I am not worried about the immediate but what kind of crap I will be left to use in two or 3 years.
3 - Rear deraileur - this scares me. We all whack the crap out of our deraileur and while I havent ripped one off of my bike I know guys who have (thank god for hangers)
4 - Brakes - forcing people to use their brakes always sucks. This will be remedied by aftermarket hubs which is cool.

Other points I made have been addressed when I looked into the gruppo more but these were my main concerns anyways.

Now Tim I know you don't like to acknowledge any of my posts as being valid which tends to insult me greatly but these points are valid to every freerider I have spoken with. And most of these freeriders have gotten a look and a try on the line. Please don't dismiss me again as an uneducated buffoon who 'just doesn't like shimano'. I do like shimano and have a lot of respect for most of their work but they are in serious need of rethinking these aspects of this gruppo for this target group.

Don't worry guys this is my last post regarding this manner. The shimano side just doesn't want to listen to the concerns and continues to dismiss any arguments to the contrary.

Originally posted by TimB
Why should they?


It is called refering to your target market. Create a prototype, go out and test it amongst the little people who tell them ya, nay or work on it. And guess what, all companies do it in 'regular' markets especially on shimano's size.

Crap not even microsoft was this bad at understanding their target market.

Originally posted by Maelstrom
Do you freeride tim? Do you know large groups of freeriders? I don't know too many that like thre proprietary look of saint. I have anounced my conerns before and while some have been remedied there are still a few left that will have to be fixed before saint will be excepted as a freeride gruppo

1 - Cost - this is the biggest thing. For the cost, in canadian, of the xtr gruppo I can create a full xt with raceface bb/cranks, hayes brakes and a few types of hubs as well as an evil chainguide. Crap you might even be able to swing a mavic321d wheelset as well but I would have to look further. Freeriders are inherently cheap because a) we go through many parts quickly by bashing them into things b) Our bikes generally cost post 5000$ for a dually.
2 - Integrated shifter/brake - won't work for freeriding. Period. End of storey. I have tried them. Very few freeriders like SRAM's grip shift and this is worse. I am not even going to mention the 500$ canadian price tag on the frickin lever alone. While for now we can use xt and lx shifter assembly that will be weeded out in the next few years which is where my concern lies. I am not worried about the immediate but what kind of crap I will be left to use in two or 3 years.
3 - Rear deraileur - this scares me. We all whack the crap out of our deraileur and while I havent ripped one off of my bike I know guys who have (thank god for hangers)
4 - Brakes - forcing people to use their brakes always sucks. This will be remedied by aftermarket hubs which is cool.

Other points I made have been addressed when I looked into the gruppo more but these were my main concerns anyways.

Now Tim I know you don't like to acknowledge any of my posts as being valid which tends to insult me greatly but these points are valid to every freerider I have spoken with. And most of these freeriders have gotten a look and a try on the line. Please don't dismiss me again as an uneducated buffoon who 'just doesn't like shimano'. I do like shimano and have a lot of respect for most of their work but they are in serious need of rethinking these aspects of this gruppo for this target group.

Don't worry guys this is my last post regarding this manner. The shimano side just doesn't want to listen to the concerns and continues to dismiss any arguments to the contrary. Yup that about says it all.

Originally posted by TimB

Would you prefer Shimano consult you first before improving theri range of products?
Why should they?
They're a business, with people to employee. To survive they make new products to keep them at the top of the market.
This whole arguement is stupid.
If you don;t like the new shifting the don't buy it. There are alternatives. Most who are *****ing would probably not buy it anyway.




OK, normally I stay out of arguments and try to not gripe about anyone, BUT this is an exception. Now I'm not saying I'm for or against what ever system anyone wants to use. Fine they use it it works, good for everyone........

BUT TIM re read what you typed there.....this proves that no one should take what you said with any grain of integrity, YES shimano is a buisness, how did they become that, because of us the consumers so if they want to stay in buisness, they do in a sense need to ask us what we think, then they'll see what everyone likes and make that.....and from what most think....they don't like this new stuff, so in the long run this could HURT shimano... Just like you said if we dont like it don't buy it....fine, but when it's being forced down everyones throats when it comes on the new bike they are buying....then they don't have much of a choice, unless the bike shop is a good one and will swap it out without charging them. But shimano is betting on people having to accenpt this stuff on new bikes.

Here's the easiest way to say it, shimano is in buisness because of us, not because of the employees they have working for them, they make products for us, and if we as a consumer don't like them, then shimano will have done the wrong thing.

I could keep going for hours on this, but you get what I'm saying

:beer:

I have to agree with someone's earlier statement about this being an opportunity for SRAM, but probably not for a few years. It will take that long for the demand for trigger shifters to filter back to the bike manufacturers, some of whom (I put my money on Cannondale to be the first) will start to offer rides built up with all SRAM components.

Personally, I have loved Rapidfire. They just plain feel "right." As for the comment that "no one asked Shimano to develop Rapidfire, either." There are some things you just know by looking at won't work for you, like Winamp 3 and the Segway scooter. For a better example, compare Nikola Tesla's idea for electrical transmission to Westinghouse's.

Originally posted by Maelstrom
It is called refering to your target market. Create a prototype, go out and test it amongst the little people who tell them ya, nay or work on it. And guess what, all companies do it in 'regular' markets especially on shimano's size.

Crap not even microsoft was this bad at understanding their target market.

And that's what Shimano did. asked peope what they would want changed andthe came up with Dual Control. If you don't like the answer them go for SRAM. Nobody's forcing you to like the answer.
Your type of person is not the only market out there you know. Heaven help us if it was. We'd stillbe riding penny farthings ;)


When i asked the question should they consult you? I refered to all people with nothing positive to contribute to a survey.
You're the guys who in a servey could have had the following to say:

1) Bring back 8speed (maybe when hell freezes over)
2) give us cartridge bearing hubs (perhaps one day when we think it'sbetter from a cost perspective
3) bring back thumbshifters or (Are youa dinosaur)
3b) keep rapid fire (THats a possibility)
4) while you at it, won't you mind allowing guys like Hope to build their brakes to your std without them using your license yousee we wnat to be able to pick our components ( Ithink I'm going to cancel his cheque after he leaves the survey...)

On the other side of the table, the OEM's (who purchase far more components than you my dear forum members, are saying; " we want a complete groupset because we want a one stop shop supplier. If our customers want something different, we'll supply the frames and they can pick and choose their bits at their LBS. But we want groupsets and we want them at a good price so we can make a better margin on our sales.

Hmm dilema. Listen to the poor humble (yeah right) man in the street who will stab you in the back and run to SRAM or give the OEM's what they want.........hmmmmmmm :rolleyes:

I think the answer is pretty obvious.

Hope, Magura, Chris King, Hayes, SRAM are all specialists in certain areas and thats all they will ever be. Prhaps SRAm will grow bigger. So if you want the exclusive brandnames and pay a premium because it 's exclusive thats your choice.

I want a bike that gets me up the hills reliably, as fast as my legs can go with minimal fuss, one that has a comfortable fit, components that work. and I don't want to pay the earth for them.
People like me are the customer that Shimano cater for. And I don't give a hoot about integration. If Integration saves me money in maintenance and ease of component obtainability then I can ride more, Thats great!!
For those who want exclusivity and their bikes to be topics of conversation there are other manufacturers. For Me I think Ill stick with Shimano. They've answered my needs with Dual Control. I'll be sticking with the Japanese on this one..

So let me get this straight, Tim. You'd rather buy something that FORCES you to be more selective in your parts spec?


What if I just want to use some XTR hubs?


What if I just want to run XTR brakes and levers, but don't like their shifting?



Shimano is ultimately shooting themself in the foot. Like I said earlier.. there's an international standard for a REASON! I don't see why Shimano insists upon limiting themselves like this. If there are so many people who object to the new integration, they won't buy it.

Personally, I've had some great XTR stuff in the past. Their old brake levers and hubs were some of the finest on earth. But I can't run those anymore, now can I? So Shimano ultimately loses because I don't want to buy some overpriced crap that only works with OTHER overpriced crap?

Seriously.. what benefit can the splined hubs POSSIBLY have? It would have to be SO minimal it's not even funny. I had thought about using XTR hubs because of good experiences in the past, but I was disappointed to find out that XTR basically WASNT an option anymore. So how does Shimano win in a situation like that? We're talking about a business here. They can't switch things up without the consumer's consent. They CAN, but they'd better be prepared for the financial consequences. I seriously don't see how this integration is a good thing whatsoever. It's not giving us MORE options, it taking them AWAY! So while Shimano works hard to make products that only work with their own, the other manufacturers will be collaborating to make top-notch stuff that will blow XTR out of the water in terms of individual parts selection and overall function.


I don't understand why Shimano doesn't continue making the old stuff that people liked before. Just because something is new doesn't necessarily mean it's better. I'll take tried and true over new and expensive anyday.

I really hope that CAMPY will save the day..... but i totally agree with maelstrom.

Originally posted by math2p14
I really hope that CAMPY will save the day..... but i totally agree with maelstrom.

To be honest, I have little hope for Campy to compete in the offroad arena. They've been out of that game for so long that they'd need to do some serious catching up. I'll keep my hopes up for the guys trying to develop interoperable standards and consortiums. Many other industries learned a long time ago that was the way to go in a marketplace that was highly evolutionary or the cost of development for a single manufacturer was too risky and high. Look at the history of Airbus and Panavia as an example. That said, the Dia-Compe/Suntour/Sugino alliance ultimately failed but I think they had failed to capitolise on their strengths as opposed to the whole consortium concept being unsound.

True khuon. Single corporations dont last in the modern world. Car companies, computer companies and aerospace companies are good examples. Same will go (hopefully) with bike companies.

One of the great things about having Toys like MTBs, is the ability to mix and swap parts to come up with the best setup possible for each individual. Shimano is taking a step backward in that area here.
In the world of DirtBikes, no company could ever hope to get away with something like this, because there are many component companies all jockeying to build compatible, reliable and affordable high performance parts that suit the average rider. Shimano is obviously looking to prolong their domination of the MTB component companies by making their products appear incompatible and hence, obselete. This may be a good business move in the short term, but at the pace MTB (mainly freeride and DH) are changing, look for companies like SRAM to come out with some real offerings. Maybe XC weight Nazis will love whatever Shimano vomits at them. Good for them. I destroy too much stuff to have a completely exclusive groupo. Most riders of my style feel the same and the competitive market WILL answer our cries. Shimano can dominate fishing reels and XC geeks for as long as they care to IMO.
PS. I do ride XC, but only on a singlespeed with no shimano parts.

I only skimmed this thread so perhaps this has already been answered, but when does the 2004 product line roll out? I would like to buy my hubs and shifters before everyone stops carrying the 2003 model, but dont know how long I have.

want a bike that gets me up the hills reliably, as fast as my legs can go with minimal fuss, one that has a comfortable fit, components that work. and I don't want to pay the earth for them.

Great! That's what the XTR line is for.

The SAINT line however caters to the Freerider market. And they want strength and durability without having to break the bank everytime they shred a component. Which happens much more often freeriding than XC racing.

A $375 dual control that makes it difficult to shift multiple gears at a time is NOT what freeriders want/need.

I commend Shimano for being the first to make a FR specific line. Like I've said, I LIKE Shimano products. BUT, just like every first run of product there are some good points and bad. The bad being you can't replace the BAD with an alternate product you have to stick with another BAD replacement!

L8R

Originally posted by RussellM
I only skimmed this thread so perhaps this has already been answered, but when does the 2004 product line roll out? I would like to buy my hubs and shifters before everyone stops carrying the 2003 model, but dont know how long I have.

XT inherits the STI and other features in 2004 which starts to trickly out in fallish I believe.

09/2003 for bike builders 10/2003 for lbs parts. Personally i have XT mech,XT discs and they kick ass. Perfect job they do and i wouldnt replace my brakes for any other. XT discs all the way. But if my transmission breaks down in the future then my obvious solution will be SRAM X9 or X.0 . Cranks? Raceface prodigy or Turbine LP. BB? RF again. Pedals? ONLY TIME Z. Hubs? If my hubs go down the drain then probably hope hubs or DT.

Im looking to get avid disks, so I want to get the XT hubs before they change. And I am used to the regular shifters, dont really want the flipy ones, but I just ordered shifters so now all I have to worry about is saving up for new wheels before they change the hubs. What a pain in the A$$. I just bought a 9 speed drive train, and If they still made them I would have been happy to stick to my 8 speed, but what are you going to do right?