Looking for a Tandem, small size

[Ginny]

Okay, so the universe has said that the Paso isn't to be, or at least not yet.
But it also knows that I have no patience to wait.

We need a size small or even better and XS.

Would this fit us?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Ibis-Cousin-IT-tandem-stunning-vintage-steel-beauty_W0QQitemZ180120515583QQihZ008QQcategoryZ56192QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Is this a good bike?
Does anyone have a good road bike (700c tires for the DH) in a smaller size that they need to get out of the garage?

Thanks,

[TandemGeek]

Would this fit us?

Not even close.

I guess you didn't like the idea of the Co-Motion Periscope as your "first" tandem.

[Ginny]

Trying not to spend over $2k.
And trying not to go through the tandem place here in Denver.
When I've called with questions, they've been pretty rude.
To them if you're not able to spend $3500 for a tandem, you might as well not
even bother. That's almost the exact words from 'Pat', who owns the shop. Puts
a bad taste in my mouth for the Co-Motion bikes. They carry the KHS and when I asked
about the road bike, Milano, I was told that if I could only afford the KHS I might as well
not get a tandem until I can afford a Co-Motion.

I've got some leads on Duets, but they are $2200 and shipping.

[Ginny]

I also don't mind getting a tandem that is older with lower components as long as it fits and
can be rebuilt.
I'm now kinda wishing I would have gone for the duet on eBay.
Not as good a frame as the current ones, but for $675 I could have it for a year and then upgraded everything little by little.
Live and learn.

[cat0020]

If you have not had much experience with tandems, you might want to start off with a less expensive model. My SO and I rented a regular tandem to ride for a week, just to make sure we liked riding together. I know KHS, Jamis and some other bike manufactuers make decent tandems below $2000.
Tandems are relationship accelerators, things change really fast when you are riding a tandem.

I purchased a TW-bent copy of the Hase Pino from eBay, since I
couldn't afford the real Hase Pino at +$4000 for experiment in riding a
tandem.

TW-bent Family tandem, does not have independent pedaling feature, no
fancy rear dropouts that incooperate pannier rack mounts, components
were decent enough for cherity rides... for under $1200 delievered to
my door, it was a pretty good deal.

My SO and I have ridden the tandem for approx. 180 miles since March,
got it up to approx. 42 mph on a good downhill. She doesn't have to
stare at the back of my head on the ride anymore, we both get full
view of scenery. I don't need to turn my head around to talk to her
and we don't have to shout to each other to talk.
We could switch between captn and stoker if need to, take approx. 2-3 minutes to get the proper sizing switch, but she will have to get used to pedaling longer crankarms when riding captn.
I really like the concept of a semi-recumbent tandem, if I save up
enough money, I would definately buy a Hase Pino.

[TandemGeek]

When I've called with questions, they've been pretty rude.

Interesting... Again, you'll be hard pressed to get a good fit on most of the tandems that I've heard you mention.

You might want to contact Co-Motion directly to see if they might be able to steer you towards another Co-Motion dealer who may have demo or rental frames available if the cost barrier to just too great. There's no way I can or would take sides in a "he said she said" dialog with a bike dealer; however, I do know that for the most part Co-Motion and its dealers usually go out of their way to support their customers and are otherwise really nice folks to deal with.

Now, and again I'm not taking sides, I myself have dealt with folks that have requirements which won't "fit in the box" and you can reach a point where further discussion is pointless. I've also seen where bike and tandem buyers have chosen to disregard a dealer's recommendations on sizing, equipment, etc... and ended up on bikes that just don't fit or meet their needs. Dealers can often times find themselves in a tight spot where it's pretty much a "lose-lose" proposition. From a consumer standpoint, given that there's no solution to be had any hope of a relationship just goes into the toilet.

Anyway, hang in there. What you're looking for can probably be found, but it will take time and effort. There are some extra-small tandems out there and, short of the aforementioned Periscopes and Bike Friday tandems, it will probably take some time to find one that meets all your requirements.

[Ginny]

Now, and again I'm not taking sides, I myself have dealt with folks that have requirements which won't "fit in the box" and you can reach a point where further discussion is pointless. I've also seen where bike and tandem buyers have chosen to disregard a dealer's recommendations on sizing, equipment, etc... and ended up on bikes that just don't fit or meet their needs. Dealers can often times find themselves in a tight spot where it's pretty much a "lose-lose" proposition. From a consumer standpoint, given that there's no solution to be had any hope of a relationship just goes into the toilet.


I would understand if our convos even gotten that far.
My first conversation was about tandems and the cost. We hadn't even gotten to sizing and was told that the only decent tandems were the Co Motion and the Primera was what we should get. Was told they have all sizes and they start at $3200. When I said I was looking to spend a bit less for a first tandem, I was told that if I cannot spend the money on a 'good' tandem, at least the $3200 for the Primera, then I shouldn't even bother. That's almost verbatim!

I thought that maybe he was having a bad day and called again the next day with a question about converting a mtn bike tandem to a road tandem. Again, I was told that if I wanted to go cheap, then he couldn't help me.

This was before I found that bikeforums had a tandem subforum or I would have just asked the questions here. You all are way better than the bike shop.

[cat0020]

Take a look at this one:

http://rmn.craigslist.org/bik/325766624.html

Found it in Google, with keywords: tandem, craigslist. scan a few pages, not too difficult to do.

[Ginny]

Yep, I look at craigslist.
This is in Rochester Minn.
http://rmn.craigslist.org/bik/325766624.html

All the tandems near me are too big.

[cat0020]

Shipping a tandem UPS ground can't be more than $250 from most bikeshops, just need to find one that is willing to do it for you.

[Carbonfiberboy]

Used tandems - let's see if I can get some discussion going. I've been in the market for a tandem, small size, for a couple of years. I have seen a couple of interesting bikes go by, but those times haven't coincided with times when I've had the spare cash. During this period, I've borrowed and ridden a couple of friends' tandems for a month or two in the summers.

I think I've learned a couple of things. I want a modern, fairly light, fast tandem. I enjoy speed, riding in rolling terrain, and even climbing. So I want a bike that will be sporty. That means a modern bike with modern components. I don't want a 45# bike with dead-end components. By dead-end, I mean components which are either not easily upgradable, or which are no longer easy to find in their original form at a decent price. The other thing about older tandems is that they tended to have shorter captain's top tubes and shorter stoker compartment, because the frame technology was not as developed. We don't find those bikes nearly as comfortable as modern frames.

I know a number of active tandem owners. What they tell me is that maintenance costs for a tandem are at least twice that for a single bike. There is just so much wear because of the weight, momentum, and power on these bikes. One owner told me that she only rode her tandem 500 miles last year, but spent $400 on parts.

So looking at older used tandems, I'm only interested in 8 or 9 speeds, because you can convert an 8 to a 9, but AFAIK nothing earlier without changing out the wheels, too. So the price of an 8 speed will also include the price of new brifters, cassette, and both derailleurs. My stoker is pretty short-legged. She uses 165 cranks. I've never seen a used tandem with 165s. So that means a new stoker BB, and while we're at it, might as well go with a new captain's BB and chainrings, too, because the rings are probably worn anyway.

So considering all this, I see medium tandems which would be, say $4200 new, selling used for $3000. What's the point of that? By the time I ship, upgrade, and replace, I'll be very close to the price of new. And there's wear on everything: rims, spokes, hubs, tires, BBs, chains, chainrings, RD, headset, etc., etc. I see similar price differentials on lower priced tandems, too. A $1200 price differential is going to get eaten up pretty quickly. And I see so very few small tandems for sale at all.

So I'm discouraged about the used tandem market. Except for bike shops or manufacturers selling demos, which might be good deals, I just don't see anything that makes sense for me. I went to a Co-Motion dealer and got measured for a new tandem. I think that was a good idea. I still might opt for something less expensive, but new. I'm still looking. Meanwhile, I watch the web.

To Ginny: why don't you go to a couple of shops, say Co-Motion and Trek or Cannondale and at least get measured. Find out for sure what top tube lengths will work well for you, what your standover heights have to be, how low that captain's saddle can go before it affects the stoker's bars, etc. At least then you'll know for sure what sizes are possible for you.

[oldacura]

Carbonfberboy - as another data point to the active tandem owners that you know: We bought our 1998 Co-Motion Co-Pilot used in 2001 sight unseen from a couple in Sequim, Wa (size small). They said it had about 1000 miles on it. We have since put another 8500 miles on it and have replaced very little except tires, the drive chain and a new set of chainrings - that's about it. We couldn't be happier. We just rode up Independence Pass (12, 095') on Saturday from Aspen. The bike is steel & not very light (about 42 pounds, I think). When decending a steep mountian road at 40+ mph, I don't want to worry if my light weight wheels will collapse from inpact with a pot hole. I used to fret over the weight of stuff on the bike but now I realize that 10 pounds is a small fraction of the total vehicle weight (~340 lbs).

I contend that if one can find a good, used tandem, they are a bargain. I suspect that we could sell ours for not much less than we paid for it.

[Ginny]

To Ginny: why don't you go to a couple of shops, say Co-Motion and Trek or Cannondale and at least get measured. Find out for sure what top tube lengths will work well for you, what your standover heights have to be, how low that captain's saddle can go before it affects the stoker's bars, etc. At least then you'll know for sure what sizes are possible for you.
We've done this for our singles.
My solo is a 53cm frame but the top tube slants slightly and has a stand over of 28 where I stand.
DHs solo is also a 53cm frame but has a 31.5 inch stand over.
So, how does knowing the frame size help me? We have the same frame size and two different
stand overs.

And I've called all the LBS in Denver and the Springs. No one has a Trek or C'Dale tandem in stock and no one will order us one to try. If we order it we have to buy it.
If I buy one used if it doesn't fit I can CL it and get probably most of my $$ for it. Buying new and finding that it doesn't fit won't give me that.

[Ginny]

I've found a few that could work, but the DH hates the thought of 26" wheels. Wider, more drag, less milage with each pedal round.
We plan on touring with the bike and I'm thinking that with two people, rack and panniers, etc
it would actually be BETTER to have the more rugged tires. He hates flat bars, he's a drop man.
We can take the flats off most bikes and replace with drops, right?

So, how do I explain that having the 26" wheels would help us.
Or wouldn't they?

[Ginny]

This one is still available.

http://denver.craigslist.org/bik/313761838.html

We don't know what year, model it is but I may go check it out tomorrow.
It's a good size, 20/18 but other than that we know nothing about it.
Current owner isn't a bike person and can't find a serial number.
I figure that we look, try it, take $600 cash and see if they would go for it.
It may be that we are buying a frame and going from there.
Tom hates flat bars and 26'' tires but we'll look at it anyway.

[Carbonfiberboy]

We've done this for our singles.
My solo is a 53cm frame but the top tube slants slightly and has a stand over of 28 where I stand.
DHs solo is also a 53cm frame but has a 31.5 inch stand over.
So, how does knowing the frame size help me? We have the same frame size and two different
stand overs.Captain's top tube length. If his arms are long enough so that he can use 56.5cm top tube length, then a medium size might fit you both. A medium Trek, for instance, has a captain's standover height of 30.6". A L/S C'dale has a captain's top tube length of 56.1 and a standover of 30.3. I don't think the stoker's top tube length is as critical. If he has standover, you will, too.

And I've called all the LBS in Denver and the Springs. No one has a Trek or C'Dale tandem in stock and no one will order us one to try. If we order it we have to buy it.
If I buy one used if it doesn't fit I can CL it and get probably most of my $$ for it. Buying new and finding that it doesn't fit won't give me that.I certainly agree with that! My point is that knowing the range of frame sizes will make it much easier to find a used bike, because you'll know what your size range is. My guess is that you've passed over bikes that might have fit. I'm a little smaller than your DH. I ride a 52 and like a 54 cm top tube.

[Ginny]

Tom say he feel a bit too compacted on his current bike at 53cm.
He thinks that going up to 56 would allow him to stretch out a bit and
it would feel good. My bike is a 53cm and I do sometimes feel I'm too
upright on mine. It's a hybrid with flat bars and I figure a 54 would be okay.

I've got a lead on a Trek T200 that is a 56/54. Owner will measure for me tonight.
Nice bike, too. We'll see.

[rmac]

And I've called all the LBS in Denver and the Springs. No one has a Trek or C'Dale tandem in stock and no one will order us one to try. If we order it we have to buy it.
If I buy one used if it doesn't fit I can CL it and get probably most of my $$ for it. Buying new and finding that it doesn't fit won't give me that.

Have you tried the giant REI store in Denver? REI sells Cannondales. If they don't stock tandems they will order one for you and if it doesn't fit you can return it with their great return policy. In addition, they rebate 10 percent off the list price.

Cannondale's medium/small has a front standover height of 28.3 (rear 26.6) and a top tube length of 55.

[TandemGeek]

He's 5'6 with a 30 Inseam. DHs solo is also a 53cm frame but has a 31.5 inch stand over. Tom say he feel a bit too compacted on his current bike at 53cm. He thinks that going up to 56 would allow him to stretch out a bit and it would feel good.

Given the foregoing, it sounds like Tom must have disproportionately long legs and arms with a short torso so disregard any of my previous comments on sizing. If at 5'6" he can obtain a good fit on a bike with a 31.5" standover height and is looking at 56cm top tubes, then just about any small or medium tandem will fit. Good hunting; there are lots of bikes that fall within his described size range.

[TandemGeek]

.... the DH hates the thought of 26" wheels. Wider, more drag, less milage with each pedal round.

This is what is referred to as "bovine scatology" or successful marketing.

700c is more popular because it's more popular. It's what the racers have adopted so its what consumers want, without regard to whether it makes sense or not. Of course, given the popularity of 700c wheels, availability of 26" rims and tires is about as scarce as 700c tires in any width other than 23mm on the shelf of your average LBS.

As for the data points:
- Wind drag on a narrow 26" racing wheel is lower than on a narrow 700c racing wheel.
- A 26" wheel is inherently stronger and lighter than a 700c wheel and can be built with fewer spokes without any loss in strength.
- Forward progress / gear inches are determined by the gearing more so than the wheel diameter and any "perceived" loss of gear inches from a 26" wheel can be easily remedied by using chainrings with one or two more teeth than someone would use on their 700c bike.

Unfortunately, all of this pales in comparison with the riducle anyone riding a 26" wheeled road bike becomes subjected to when mingling wth the racer boys and wanna-be racer boys. Admittedly, if you are a USCF licensed racer you really do need to have 700c wheels because that's what neutral support provides. Also, from a practical standpoint, having 700c wheels usually means there's always someone around with a spare innertube that will work, if not a spare tire. Heck, 27" wheeled bike riders are just as isolated in today's market.

Anyway, FWIW, 26" wheels make A LOT of sense for many riders. Unfortunately, they're are only a few brave souls who are willing to set aside fashion for functionality. Oh yeah, color-me vane: all of our road bikes have 700c wheelsets, even though Debbie at 5'2" is riding a 48cm custom Ritchey that should probably have 650c wheels.

[Carbonfiberboy]

Of course, given the popularity of 700c wheels, availability of 26" rims and tires is about as scarce as 700c tires in any width other than 23mm on the shelf of your average LBS.My wife rides a nice little MTB framed bike with road components. 26" road tires can be hard to find but they do come in quite a decent variety. This recumbent shop has the best selection I've found:
http://www.hostelshoppe.com/cgi-bin/search.pl?category=704500
I understand rolling resistance is slightly higher for smaller wheels, but is probably more than balanced by the reduced windage. There seem to be a few aero MTB wheelsets on the market, also.

[zonatandem]

Another note on 26" wheeled size small tandems: it'll give both of you about an inch more standover room. And if you want go-fast 26" wheels, daVinci's V22 rims surely fit the bill.
Know of a licensed racer that had his 20"-wheeled Bike Friday and at spur of the moment decided to do a local USCF race. The racers snickerded at him. He kept up easily with the lead group . . . surprise, it's not the size of the wheels, it's the legs/experience/power that'll make 'em quit snickering!

[Red Rider]

We've done this for our singles.
My solo is a 53cm frame but the top tube slants slightly and has a stand over of 28 where I stand.
DHs solo is also a 53cm frame but has a 31.5 inch stand over.
So, how does knowing the frame size help me? We have the same frame size and two different
stand overs.

And I've called all the LBS in Denver and the Springs. No one has a Trek or C'Dale tandem in stock and no one will order us one to try. If we order it we have to buy it.
If I buy one used if it doesn't fit I can CL it and get probably most of my $$ for it. Buying new and finding that it doesn't fit won't give me that.

Our LBS sells Trek & Co-Motion. We told them we weren't in the market for high-dollar bikes & they steered us toward the Raleigh, which, despite my b*tching, has carried us over 2100 mi. since Oct. '06 with (relatively) few issues. It cost us $1600. It could fit you two. So maybe you want to call your LBS and your not-so-LBS and see if they have anything like this.

You might also do a Google search to see what's near you, or at least what's available.

I enjoy your enthusiasm and your posts. I hope you find what you want soon.

Good luck!

[la2sei]

i don't know how up to date the ads are but there is a small burley tosa on the RTR classified ads
http://www.rtrmag.com/classifieds.htm
there is also a med/sm cannondale. can't tell where they are located.
we have a small burley softride samba, 26 in wheels. my wife loves the bike. it's comfortable and happend to be in her favorite color the year we bought it.

[JTGraphics]

We ended up with a Trek T900 the after considering many. The final deciding factor was on fit which eliminated most all frames I was looking at. My wife (stoker) is short and top tube height was just to hi or to close to make it a wise choice for her to enjoy the ride. You need to keep them happy (stoker) if you don't the tandem experience won't last long and it will just sit.
It rides great is on the lighter side with its aluminum frame and for what we do is just fine. The only thing I changed was the tires were using 26x1.25 slicks and diffrent seats, but bottom line is fit and the Trek T900 was the only one with a low top tube for her to enjoy the ride on.
In any case hope you find one that fits your needs.