Folding Bikes - Thinking about a Brompton to tackle Europe

Hi everyone :)

I have a few questions, and I hope you guys have the time for me.

I'm planning on backpacking/cycling/camping through Europe from January to July. I'm going through Spain, France, Ireland, Italy, and wherever else I'm drawn. I will be taking flights (that's why I like the small folded size of the Brompton) and trains, but mostly I'm thinking of going from city to city on the bike, and camping along the way.

I'm also hoping to take an Osprey Ariel 55 backpack with me to carry all of my gear. I don't really like the idea of panniers, and want to be able to have all of my stuff pretty compact and easy to carry if I store my bike for the day. I was hoping to strap my backpack to the rear rack of the Brompton P6R. Does anyone know if that's possible?

I'm not sure what the pack dimensions are (I don't have the pack yet, and I can't find the dimensions online...) and if I had to guess I would say in the neighborhood of 28in x 14in x 10in. I could be way off, hopefully it's smaller than that, but it should be a general idea.

I'm going up to Palo Alto this week to give the Bromptons a test ride.

Has anyone been in the same situation and strapped a backpack to a folding bike? I would love to hear from anyone!

Thanks for your time.

I'm planning on backpacking/cycling/camping through Europe from January to July. I'm going through Spain, France, Ireland, Italy, and wherever else I'm drawn. I will be taking flights (that's why I like the small folded size of the Brompton) and trains, but mostly I'm thinking of going from city to city on the bike, and camping along the way.

Have you considered the various Bike Friday models? It sounds like you'll spend more time riding the bike than in transit, and the Bike Fridays are made for touring.. If you get the suitcase trailer, you're all set for the flight and how to carry your stuff from camp to camp.

If you do get a Brompton, you will probably want the 6 speed with the lowest possible optional gearing, otherwise you'll have trouble on the hills with your touring load. The P6L is probably a good choice for touring, though this will depend on your height. The lower handlebar on the P6 is lower than the S-type handlebar, I believe, and even that was too low for me at 6'4" tall. So definitely try all three types - S, M and P - and see what fits you best. You might find that a M- or S-type with bar ends would fit you better and give enough different hand positions to keep you comfortable.


I'm also hoping to take an Osprey Ariel 55 backpack with me to carry all of my gear. I don't really like the idea of panniers, and want to be able to have all of my stuff pretty compact and easy to carry if I store my bike for the day. I was hoping to strap my backpack to the rear rack of the Brompton P6R. Does anyone know if that's possible?

Can you really fit all your gear for a 6 month camping trip in 55 liters? That sounds ambitious, but if you can pack that lightly - my hat goes off to you! Yes, it's entirely possible to strap a backpack to the rack on a folding bike - I did it several times on my Moulton, using my MEC 42 Long pack. You have 2 choices - either upright, thin side lengthways to the bike and attached to the saddle (to avoid heel strike), - or, lengthways, but this will hang off the end of the rack quite a bit on the Brompton.

You might want to consider using the Brompton front touring bag and attaching a smaller bag on the back, rather than going for one big bag on the back.


I'm going up to Palo Alto this week to give the Bromptons a test ride.

Sounds like a good plan, and I'd be interested to hear how you like the shop. It's almost in my neighbourhood, and I wouldn't mind visiting some time myself.

Good luck, and I hope you post updates to this group!

Magnus

I haven't tried it with a folder, but I toured Bali for 4 weeks with a similar sized carry-on-legal backpack/suitcase strapped on a rack on a 26" wheel bike. It shouldn't be much different on a Brompton. Panniers are nice, but not required.

You might consider bringing a backpack sized cardbox box with you when you test ride the bike. That way you could attach it with some zip ties or whatever and get a reasonable idea of whether it might work or not.

My travel pack had an internal frame that kept it stiff enough to easily strap it on the rear bike rack without any problems. I will try and find a picture and post it later. I used to carry home a week's worth of groceries in a milk crate attached to a rear rack so I had plenty of practice with similar loads.

Just remember, now that you've posted here you gotta post some trip pix when you get back:)

Sounds like a good plan, and I'd be interested to hear how you like the shop. It's almost in my neighbourhood, and I wouldn't mind visiting some time myself.
It's actually a residence, but I'm sure 10 - 15 people could live comfortably in that place alone if he wanted that many around. Nice guy; too bad he's a Stanford supporter. :p

In terms of load, I second the notion of using the front bag on carrier block and a smaller pack on the rear rack, but this can get tedious if you need to carry around your gear plus a bike. You can buy the frame alone for the front carrier block, and attach the frame to your backpack; I did this with a Kensington saddle bag and it worked out ok but it was tricky attaching the frame to the bag. There might be a weight limit for the front carrier as well, but at least I could fold the rear triangle to act as a kickstand. You can't do the kickstand if you have gear on the rear rack.

Thanks guys. It's been less than an hour and I already have great advice. This forum rocks! Thanks a lot :)

Magnus, I thought about the Bike Friday, and I like them a lot, I just think I need to tiny folding size of the Brompton. Otherwise I would be charged the over-limit, or bike handling fee on every flight (And I'm taking three just to get to my first destination...it was cheaper than just flying straight there :) )

6 speeds sounds like a good idea. I think that's what I'll go for.

I'm 5'7" so the handlebars might be ok for me, but I'll definitely try them all out when I go up there.

On my trip I'm going to be working on some farm-stays and home-stays, and if staying in a city for a while I'll stay in a few hostels. So I won't be camping the ENTIRE time, just half of it. So I'm hoping that all the gear I will need ends up being "ultralight" and I think it will :)

So it is possible to strap the pack upright? That's what I was thinking I would do. Hmmm..

I'll let you know how everything went, and how the Palo Alto shop is when I get back :)



Pine Cone, That cardboard box idea is great. I have one that's perfect. Thanks!

I would love to update on my trip. I'm sure it's all I'll be talking about for the next year anyway :)

And of course pictures will be included. I'll start posting them as soon as I start buying my gear. I might not be getting my bike until closer to October, but I'll keep you updated :)

Wow...

I put smiley faces everywhere... :o

I just called the guy at the Palo Alto store, and he does seem to be a really nice guy.

Spam, yeah I did think about not being able to swing the rear wheel to park the bike, but I think I'll be ok with that. Or were you talking about an actual kickstand? Would that still work?

The bike friday will pack as small as the brompton, the brompton will just fold faster. The BF needs some dismantling. The rear rack on the brompton is also the kick stand, so putting something on it can be a pain. Folded it will be on the bottom.

Are you planning to get the brompton case?

JimC

I was planning on getting the soft carrying case for the Brompton, not the hard shell.

I wasn't aware the Bike Friday could pack as small as a Brompton. It does include some dismantling though you say? I'll have another look and see if it's something I could live with :)

Magnus, I thought about the Bike Friday, and I like them a lot, I just think I need to tiny folding size of the Brompton. Otherwise I would be charged the over-limit, or bike handling fee on every flight (And I'm taking three just to get to my first destination...it was cheaper than just flying straight there

Bike Friday's do fit in airline legal suitcases - that was the idea behind the very first models! So you shouldn't have any trouble with that.

As someone else mentioned, getting the BF down to size will require a little more effort than the Brompton. Not too difficult according to the BF website, but since I've never owned one I can't comment.

Hmmm....I'm going over the Bike Friday again...and I'm not sure how I missed it. I know I've been over these bikes before, and I could have sworn they packed up over 62"...but I guess I'm wrong.

That's really one of the only reasons I was dead set on getting a Brompton. I thought it was the only bike under 62"

Thanks again guys. I'm going to have to figure this out... :)

Hmmm....I'm going over the Bike Friday again...and I'm not sure how I missed it. I know I've been over these bikes before, and I could have sworn they packed up over 62"...but I guess I'm wrong.

Well, they used to supply a 29" Samsonite Oyster, which definitely fit in airline regs. They now supply a 31" Samsonite F'lite, which is right up there on the borderline, size wise. But it's just a normal (if large) suitcase and I haven't heard of anyone having trouble with it on flights.

Magnus

Spam, yeah I did think about not being able to swing the rear wheel to park the bike, but I think I'll be ok with that. Or were you talking about an actual kickstand? Would that still work?
I was talking about the swinging rear triangle kickstand. But I think you'll have options for a regular kickstand as well, more specifically some sort of axle mounted kickstand. Channell would probably have some good suggestions.

You shouldn't go wrong with Bike Friday either, but that's a whole different set up.

Does anyone know how to find the folded sizes of the bikes on bikefriday.com?

I've found the interior size of the Samsonite F'lite TravelCase (29.5 x 20.3 x 10 inches.) And I'm pretty sure you have to take off the wheels to get it in there. And I'm not to keen on having a hard case, even if it turns into a trailer.

In the FAQ it says that the Pocket models fold down to 34 x 33 x 12 inches, which would be too big.

So if I did buy a pocket model, would I have to remove both wheels to get it down to size?

The New World Tourist looks great. I wonder how small it can go...

I'll keep looking :)

Use cam-lock straps to hold the pack on the rack and keep it upright if you want. For straps you can't beat these from NRS. Fast to use and rock solid. The gold standard in the kayak and rafting world.

http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product.asp?pfid=1440

You might need some auxilary rack support to get the pack to stay vertical, but you can always strap it to the seatpost or stempost or bottom of the seat with some sort of bracket to help it stay where you want. You can carry almost anything on a bike if you try hard enough.

The only reason I ended up considering, buying and actually becoming a big fan of folding bikes was due to a trip similar to yours, and if I had to give you one single advice, here it is:

Most folders will fit inside internationally accepted luggage. No matter how nicer a Bike Friday or any other 20"wheeled bike is, stay away from them UNLESS you are really into bike mechanics and see assembling bikes, adjusting brakes and gear cables as something fun to do.

I used to see it that way but it can grow old REALLY QUICK, specially if you are traveling.

You will be a happier traveller if you spend less time assembling bikes and more time riding them. Go for a Brompton.

Pine Cone, thanks for the info. I'll have to get a few of those.

14R, thanks for that. I do like working on bikes, but I'm not a bike mechanic. And if I was stuck somewhere in the rain, in a bad mood, having trouble assembling or disassembling my bike, I think I would get pretty mad. Looks like the Brompton is right for me. I can't wait to test it out. How did your trip go?

I live in Florida (USA) for the last 10 years, but I am originally from Rio de Janeiro (Brazil). Twice a year I travel back home to visit relatives and I add (as money and time permits) other states that I never had a chance to visit while living down there (I'm actually on my way there this up coming Sunday).

One time I took a 20" Downtube VIII NS and I visited 10 cities in 12 days. That was a turning point and I will never try to travel with a bike bigger than a Dahon Curve or a Brompton.

I got some good pictures. I transfered all the rights to Yan from Downtube, but I don't think he will have a problem with me sharing some of them here with bikeforum users.








Now I have 2 16" bikes and I am very happy with them. If you can afford a Brompton, go for it!

R.

Awesome pictures 14R!

I was taking a look at the DownTubes, and they look really nice. I was checking out the 2007 FS 9 speed. It says it folds down to 12 x 23.6 x 33 inches (which would be about 6.6 inches too big for me) but then it also says that the rear swingarm is removable for super compact folding.

So I have two questions for you, and I hope you know :)

1 - What is a swingarm, is that a part of the suspension, and is it easy to remove?

2 - What are the dimensions of the folded bike with it removed?

Hopefully your bike is similar. I doubt it would give me the size I need though. I'll keep looking in the meantime and see if there is a smaller one.

Oh wait...I just found the mini. Do you have any experience with that bike? And do you know if it can be fitted with a rear rack?

Thanks!

The swingarm is the point of of attachment of the rear portion of the Full Suspension (FS) model where the coiled suspension attaches to the seattube. I have no experience attempting to fit a DT FS into luggage, but some people here (including Yan himself, the creator of the Downtube design) can explain to you how it works.

I was strongly considering a DT Mini but ended up buying a Dahon Curve instead. The only reason was that Dahon is quite popular in Brazil and from time to time I just end up selling my bike while downthere. A Brand new Dahon Curve D3 down there costs the equivalent of US$ 700.00, so I can easily sell my lightly used one for US$500.00, while I am not sure if I can see my money back attempting to sell a Downtube down there yet.

Downtube is a great bike, very upgradable and some people travel with the Mini a lot (try a search on this forum). If I could make some money selling them in Brazil I would buy 2/year (like I do with other brands) :)

Now my official traveling bike is a Brompton, that I am not planning on selling any soon. That's why I believe one will work for you. After riding lots of folding bikes, that's the one that keeps me happy. For now.

My original question was about strapping a pack to a Brompton. And thanks everyone, again, for helping me out with that.

Now it seems that this thread is turning into Brompton vs. DownTube, which I don't mind, but I should probably start another thread for that. That is, unless there is one open already :)

Thanks 14R for the DownTube info.

Thanks guys. It's been less than an hour and I already have great advice. This forum rocks! Thanks a lot :)

Ha! Now way. You're the one that opened my eyes! Putting a backpack on the back of a folder's lower rack... interesting.

If that works OK then that sounds like a cool option for touring on a folder.

Does anyone have photos of a back pack attached to a folder? I'm hoping I have the same image in my head :).

By the way your trip sounds great!

Here is a pack strapped to a regular non-folder. This was back in the 80s when I though I weighed too much:D


Of couse the locals carry a bit more...:eek:


You really can make it work on a folder, it just might take some imagination.

I was talking about the swinging rear triangle kickstand. But I think you'll have options for a regular kickstand as well, more specifically some sort of axle mounted kickstand. Channell would probably have some good suggestions.

You shouldn't go wrong with Bike Friday either, but that's a whole different set up.
Fitting a regular light aluminium kickstand to Brompton takes 15min. I did it to my Merc - folded size stays the same. I fitted it to the lower tube 10 cm from the rear axel.

Fitting a regular light aluminium kickstand to Brompton takes 15min. I did it to my Merc - folded size stays the same. I fitted it to the lower tube 10 cm from the rear axel.

Do you have a picture of that? I am more interested in the kind of kickstand and the position where you placed it than enything else.

Thank you.

Hehe, but your photo has a suitcase strapped horizontally. I think dancedoula is thinking more of a vertical setup with a pack, including attachment to the seat/post, yes?

I tried this setup today with my normal day pack and it worked quite excellent: mind you my day pack is tiny compared to the rack sack dancedoula mentioned :). Still worked better then my regular filing crate: I wanted to replace my crate since it forces me to carry it as well. Not sure why I never thought of strapping a bag vertically to the seat post before. Tunnel vision sucks.

I have seen a Brommie loaded with a 60l back-pack (vertically stowed). It appeared to be tethered with a few bungee cords.

You will have to remove the front wheel for the bike to fit into a flight legal case. Which is generally the case for most bikes. The Brompton would be the exception.

In my opinion, it is not that hard to pack and unpack a 20" bike. We just went to Santa Fe and I have the process down for my New World Tourist to 30 minutes including a quick check of the bike. And I was taking my time. Although adding racks and such would add to the total time.

Anyway, I think that most people will write that their 20" bike rides better than their 16" bike. So there is a tradeoff involved.

Maybe you should consider the Birdy.

I really like the idea of mounting the fully loaded bag, whatever bag it is, in the area between the seat and the wheel; and on the DT Mini (and similar 16" wheel bikes) it should not be that hard to do. The problem with most racks, such as the ones that mount to the seatpost, is that you're supposed to put stuff on top of the rack, or off the sides if they're pannier racks; but what I really want to do is hang my briefcase from the rack. I have been working on various options for this... but have nothing to report at this point.

The DT Mini, with it's 8-speed hub, is well suited to touring. I just did about 30 miles on mine yesterday, mostly in Manhattan and Brooklyn, and of course taking it on the NJ Transit train; and it was fine. If it folds small enough for your needs, it may be a good solution.

Something to consider, by the way, is that with a Brompton you're paying a lot to get it to the US; if you want a Brompton, you may do better to buy it overseas. Less hassle. The DT, however, is cheaper here. You might do very well buying it here, using it in Europe, and selling it there when you're done.

More later, I'm still working on this rack thing.... --Rudi

Go Bears!

Do you have a picture of that? I am more interested in the kind of kickstand and the position where you placed it than enything else.

Thank you.
Hope these pictures help - only VGA I'm afraid.

Thank you so much. I'll see if I can find something similar around here.

I really like the idea of mounting the fully loaded bag, whatever bag it is, in the area between the seat and the wheel; and on the DT Mini (and similar 16" wheel bikes) it should not be that hard to do. The problem with most racks, such as the ones that mount to the seatpost, is that you're supposed to put stuff on top of the rack, or off the sides if they're pannier racks; but what I really want to do is hang my briefcase from the rack. I have been working on various options for this... but have nothing to report at this point.

More later, I'm still working on this rack thing.... --Rudi

My still being developed stand is also the rack, & in fact luggage has to hang underneath it, which I prefer :-)

Pity there's so much water between us - we could pool ideas ;-)

Look forward to seeing how you get on with the rack, & the DT in general......