Advocacy & Safety - "Reading" right turners

This is a thread for those who have tips to offer on how to judge if a motorist is planning to turn right or not. I've found this to be important for those times when the speed difference between you and faster traffic is great enough that merging left out of the road margin (bike lane/shoulder/right-side section of wide lane) is difficult to impossible in the distance between intersections. While I've found it to be important, I've also found that I'm either not very good at it, or the motorists who have right hooked me have done a fantastic job of hiding any signs that they were going to turn right in front of me.

To be clear, the roads that I have experienced right hook issues on are high speed roads (45-50mph speed limit, 45-60mph traffic) with many intersections (~10 or more per mile) where I'm moving at a decent clip (18-25mph). My lack of being able to read right turners has made me resistant to using the road margin in these situations especially when there is a passing lane available. If no passing lane, I'll force myself to slow down where a potential hook could occur. I'd prefer not to ride long stretches of road at 10-15mph in the shoulder when I could be going 20-25 in the traffic lane though. If I could keep my speed up in the shoulder, I'd have less of an issue using it to let faster traffic pass.

This post was sparked by a discussion with HH and John C. Ratliff in the "science of bike lanes" thread.

So, what are your tips?

Maybe this video I made will give you some clues.

youtube Pu1wOyS6UAQ - Fast Right Hook (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu1wOyS6UAQ) (previously posted)

Speed about the same as previously passing white car.
Blinker only turned on after they passed me.

Other videos of right hooks: (all I have posted before)
youtube 3_iibXnV4AU - Near Right Hook while in bike lane (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_iibXnV4AU)
youtube B7jKckRlwV0 - Right Hook Avoided (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7jKckRlwV0)
youtube nszYeDuDsTM - Bike Lane at Intersection (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nszYeDuDsTM)
youtube 98a55mSPQGA - Why to avoid Bike Lane (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98a55mSPQGA)

Here a 'bent driver is right hooked:
youtube Hir5oY-h10Y - stay out of bike lane to avoid right hook (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hir5oY-h10Y)

Enjoy.
Note I have never had a collision resulting from a right hook. In many cases I saw slowing and/or blinker. But over time I have learned I can not rely on those clues. Staying out of BL or far right of road seems to be only 100% method to prevent right hooks from vehicle in outside motorist travel lane.

Al

I'm assuming you are being sarcastic, right?

The "near right hook while in bike lane" video is similar to what I have experienced. I'll take ten honks per ride over having to deal with that.

I think I do much of it subconsciously, so I'm not fully aware of everything I do.

Here's a thought after looking at Al's video. If someone passes you and then is going to turn right, for them to be a right hook threat to you, they have to slow down to below your speed (so you can pass them). So perhaps the main thing to watch is the distance between you and any car that passes you. If that distance starts to shrink, that means they are going slower than you... that's your cue to look back and merge left asap, and probably slow down.

I think I do much of it subconsciously, so I'm not fully aware of everything I do.

Here's a thought after looking at Al's video. If someone passes you and then is going to turn right, for them to be a right hook threat to you, they have to slow down to below your speed (so you can pass them). So perhaps the main thing to watch is the distance between you and any car that passes you. If that distance starts to shrink, that means they are going slower than you... that's your cue to look back and merge left asap, and probably slow down.

Al's video is a perfect representation of what I've been through. It happened twice in two days while taking a detour around my normal commuting route which had a road closed. I used the right lane the rest of the time and put up with a few honks per day but no other issues. With debris being common in shoulders/bike lanes, I'd hate to be put in an emergency braking situation like that without max grip.

I think it is similar to the door prize avoidance technique situation.

One can learn clues, but the only 100% method is to stay out of the door or hook zone.
Experience may result in 99% accuracy in avoiding door or hook, but thats still 1/100 collisions or close calls for every turning driver or opening door.

Al

I think it is similar to the door prize avoidance technique situation.

One can learn clues, but the only 100% method is to stay out of the door or hook zone.
Experience may result in 99% accuracy in avoiding door or hook, but thats still 1/100 collisions or close calls for every turning driver or opening door.

Al

This is pretty much my attitude towards it any more. I'll accept going slower when I know that I'm seriously impeding traffic by blocking the only lane in my direction but with multiple lanes, why should I be the one to have to slow down and still take a risk (those people entering the road from my right are an issue too)? I guess that since so much of my experience has matched HH's and he's pretty insistent on being able to read right turners, I was hoping for some miracle cure for my apparent inability to do this consistently. 99% of the time isn't enough for me.

(those people entering the road from my right are an issue too)? .
Like this:
youtube kOoWtZag8Po - Driver noses car nto BL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOoWtZag8Po)

(actually this is a static version, it is the ones who pull out as you are approaching that are even more dangerous, but as I just got on a video kick, I figured I post it too)

Al

I just recently bought the new ATC-2000 camera. I'm pretty certain that when I get it hooked up and shoot some commutes, I'll be able to provide almost identical videos to yours.

Just lane position doesn't stop right hooks - I've been right hooked when in the center of the lane. Drivers are just too impatient sometimes and figure they can beat you to the intersection, rather than wait for you to clear. You gotta use your ears and eyes to monitor traffic to your rear and left and have a feel for the distance between you and that intersection or driveway - from a driver's perspective. There are literally hundreds of little nuances that can indicate a potential hooker...which is why, for a change, I won't blast HH for not being able to verbalize them. With experience, your mind begins to 'pattern match' and set off alarm bells when things look hinky, based on past experiences and observations.

Best defense - plan for Murphy. When a vehicle is moving/passing to your left and there are intersections or driveways ahead - expect a right hook and plan your actions accordingly, so when the 1% actually does it, you are prepared and can deal with it without having a bad day.

Just lane position doesn't stop right hooks - I've been right hooked when in the center of the lane. Drivers are just too impatient sometimes and figure they can beat you to the intersection, rather than wait for you to clear. You gotta use your ears and eyes to monitor traffic to your rear and left and have a feel for the distance between you and that intersection or driveway - from a driver's perspective. There are literally hundreds of little nuances that can indicate a potential hooker...which is why, for a change, I won't blast HH for not being able to verbalize them. With experience, your mind begins to 'pattern match' and set off alarm bells when things look hinky, based on past experiences and observations.

Best defense - plan for Murphy. When a vehicle is moving/passing to your left and there are intersections or driveways ahead - expect a right hook and plan your actions accordingly, so when the 1% actually does it, you are prepared and can deal with it without having a bad day.
I agree*, however center lane position eliminates the vast majority combined with hook-dar means that 99% number I pulled from darkness increases perhaps to 99.96%. ;)

*That is why I used the extra qualifiers when I wrote:
"Staying out of BL or far right of road seems to be only 100% method to prevent right hooks from vehicle in outside motorist travel lane."

I have only once been right hooked by a driver who was in inside lane while I was riding centerish in NOL. it was a beat me to the intersection type, they made the correct bad judgement and did beat me with me not needing to slow with brake, but that doesn't mean it was safe as if they had to stop suddenly for a pedestrian crossing side street we could have collided.

I did once have a near adrenaline heart stopping rush as I was about to pass an intersection at 25mph and a fast same direction vehicle put turn signal on which I saw in mirror. I was about to execute a quick turn, but then realized the motorist had put their signal on for a much later intersection.

Al

I've been right hooked once when a driver made a right turn from the outside through lane across the right turn lane. Hit his car and slide the full length along the car then shot into a Burger King parking lot. Not hurt and only a scratch on my bike.

Unfortunately for him I was on my motorcycle, and he did not care for my police uniform or attidue, but I think he got the message.

NNY

I have only once been right hooked by a driver who was in inside lane while I was riding centerish in NOL. it was a beat me to the intersection type, they made the correct bad judgement and did beat me with me not needing to slow with brake, but that doesn't mean it was safe as if they had to stop suddenly for a pedestrian crossing side street we could have collided.

I get one about once a week...but on a narrow two-lane 35mph road. No room to share the lane so I am always centerish. One intersection leads up to the Interstate, so every morning there are lots of impatient drivers who can't stand to wait a couple of seconds to make the turn. I can almost always 'read them' by the fact they are passing me so close to the intersection and because of where the turn leads. Every day I approach requires me to decide whether to sprint or back off. :(

I get one about once a week...but on a narrow two-lane 35mph road. No room to share the lane so I am always centerish. One intersection leads up to the Interstate, so every morning there are lots of impatient drivers who can't stand to wait a couple of seconds to make the turn. I can almost always 'read them' by the fact they are passing me so close to the intersection and because of where the turn leads. Every day I approach requires me to decide whether to sprint or back off. :(
When I am approaching a controlled intersection where I know there are frequent right turners I most often bias far left. I do this so if/when the light turns red and I need to stop I can then left right turners pass on my right. I don't always do this, but the times I don't I wish I had.

I know this is a different situation than yours, so this is not meant to be a suggestion or argumentative.

Al

I get one about once a week...but on a narrow two-lane 35mph road. No room to share the lane so I am always centerish. One intersection leads up to the Interstate, so every morning there are lots of impatient drivers who can't stand to wait a couple of seconds to make the turn. I can almost always 'read them' by the fact they are passing me so close to the intersection and because of where the turn leads. Every day I approach requires me to decide whether to sprint or back off. :(

I get about one a week as well, usually either on my way into work on the 25mph 2 lane road leading towards the high school (never once has it been a student, always an impatient parent) or on my way home going past the Acme on a 45mph 4 lane road with right turn lanes. In both of these cases, it's obvious that the passer sees me due to their trajectory around me and no one has been so bold as to cut across my path at a 90 degree angle to make their turn. This would be quite a difficult manuever to pull off I expect. The sequence usually goes: passer comes up behind me quickly, quicly changes lanes with furious acceleration, then swings all the way back to right where they would have ended up had they waited 5 more seconds. Always blatantly telelgraphed.

It used to be much worse when I didn't seriously left bias near this intersection. Probably 75% of traffic turns right here and I'd end up with a train of right hooking motorists while I'm trying to move left. I move left very early now even though I could stay right a bit longer and possibly let 1-2 more motorists pass me before the intersection. Again, it's not worth the hassle for me. When I stay left, the worst I get is a honk or the telegraphed right swoop from the opposite direction lane.

On the other hand, right turners from the outside lane who are passing me while I'm in the road margin usually do not change their trajectory at all as they pass and if you watch Al's video, do not demonstrate having really taken notice of the cyclist to their right until it's possibly too late. This to me is a scary situation as I have no indication of what's going to happen next because I'm uncertain if they've seen me. As long as I'm uncertain as to what they'll do next, my only option is to stop. I'm not fond of counting on being able to outbrake a vehicle with vastly superior brake to my own, especially not while riding over some loose gravel, sand, or the dreaded pine needles ;)

There are literally hundreds of little nuances that can indicate a potential hooker...which is why, for a change, I won't blast HH for not being able to verbalize them. With experience, your mind begins to 'pattern match' and set off alarm bells when things look hinky, based on past experiences and observations.

Can you list any of them for me? I'm still willing to learn here if someone can point out something that I've been missing. And just to be clear, the right swoop where I need to shift my position a bit and tap a brake lever doesn't bother me one bit. I can read those well enough. It's the braking contest type that scares me.

the swoop. learn to do the bumper swoop.

once a week? jeez, sounds like a problem. like chip mentions, they'll try to hook ya, despite your position.

Here, at intersections with well travelled bike lanes, drivers actually watch for bicyclists as they approach, and yield to bikes versus hooking them. specifically, At one intersection here near a park, heavily travelled by bicyclists, most traffic seems to wait for bicyclists in the bike lane to clear a free right before using it.

the bike lane, and the cognizance of cyclists in the bike lane, seems to get drivers to not hook cyclists at heavily biked Seattle intersections. i know it is counterintuitive to all the anti-bike lane propagandists on bike forums, but I see the conditions and the yielding to bikes, versus hooking in the bike lane here.

Joe, learn the bumper swoop. like chip says, they'll hook you regardless of your lane position.

the swoop. learn to do the bumper swoop.

once a week? jeez, sounds like a problem. like chip mentions, they'll try to hook ya, despite your position.

Here, at intersections with well travelled bike lanes, drivers actually watch for bicyclists as they approach, and yield to bikes versus hooking them. specifically, At one intersection here near a park, heavily travelled by bicyclists, most traffic seems to wait for bicyclists in the bike lane to clear a free right before using it.

the bike lane, and the cognizance of cyclists in the bike lane, seems to get drivers to not hook cyclists at heavily biked Seattle intersections. i know it is counterintuitive to all the anti-bike lane propagandists on bike forums, but I see the conditions and the yielding to bikes, versus hooking in the bike lane here.

Joe, learn the bumper swoop. like chip says, they'll hook you regardless of your lane position.

Can you watch Al's video? There's no bumper swoop option there. Swooping would require outbraking a motor vehicle by at least the length of the vehicle to get behind their bumper. I'd need to be braking for the right hook long before it started to pull that off.

The times when the swoop is an option are a motorist impatience problem. The times when I don't have that option are a cyclist-going-unnoticed problem. The latter requires much more effort and vigilance on my part and I've decided that those levels of effort and vigilance are above my threshold for acceptable risk. I've decided that it's either learn how to recognize the currently unrecognizable or no longer put myself in that situation.

The more I think about this, the more I think what I do, as I approach any place where a right turn can be made, is look behind and try to ascertain whether I can rule out the "next" car as a potential right hooker. Steady lane position and steady speed is a pretty sure indicator that this guy is not going to turn, but to make sure, a lane adjustment and/or look back over the left shoulder can help. The thing is, for any given intersection approach, there is really only one, maybe two, potential right hookers. Everyone in front of him can safely pass you and turn right without affecting you, those behind are too far back to matter. So part of the trick is to identify the one (or two) cars that are a potential problem. And that's totally subsconscious calculations based on spatial and timing factors that can only be developed with experience. But once the potential problem guy is identified, that's who you focus on to ascertain whether you can rule them out as about to turn right or not. This is where lane adjustment and looking back can help. I can't verbalize this either, but someone who is turning right will behave differently, subtly, in reaction to your lane adjustments and look back than is someone who is continuing straight. Again, "reading" that comes with experience.

helemt head, you are just making that stuff up! reading a car behind you if its a hooker! hilarious, I'm sorry I'm laughing. do you use your mirror to study the cars behind you, check their nuances? :roflmao:

you don't ride in traffic as a bicycle commuter much, do you, head? like once or twice a week on average? you think your 'experience' has trained you to read cars and hooks approaching from behind to the extent you can gauge a hook before the vehicle has even come parallel to your bike? :roflmao: "everyone in front of him can safely pass you and turn right without affecting you..." :roflmao: you actually BELIEVE that?

to Joe....."going unnoticed...."

do you run visibility equipment on your commutes, joe?

planet bike superflash, or neon lime clothing?

The thing is, for any given intersection approach, there is really only one, maybe two, potential right hookers. Everyone in front of him can safely pass you and turn right without affecting you, those behind are too far back to matter. So part of the trick is to identify the one (or two) cars that are a potential problem.

This is really good. The whole post was good but this specific point is something that I have not fully considered before. If nothing else, focussing in on the potential problem vehicles can allow me to have that extra bit of reaction time that I normally might lose by paying attention to an irrelevant passing vehicle and maybe missing a subtle cue from the hooking vehicle in the process.

"going unnoticed...."

do you run visibility equipment on your commutes, joe?

planet bike superflash, or neon lime clothing?

Both times I had the problem hooks I was wearing my bright yellow fleece-lined vest, which is much brighter than what I commute in the majority of the time. I probably had my taillight flashing (TDL-1000?) as it was on my way home which, during the winter when they happened, usually meant the sun would be going down by the time I got home.

Joe, earlier in the thread you mentioned one hook a week, now it's only twice, while wearing high viz? what gives?


if you believe HH's artifice and specious construct, thinking passing vehicles are irrelevant to hooks, you've got to rework your cycling maxims, joe.

if you believe HH's artifice and specious construct, thinking passing vehicles are irrelevant to hooks, you've got to rework your cycling maxims, joe.

I'm not following. Are you trying to say that all passing vehicles are potential threatening (as opposed to non-threatening right hookers, the kind you would bumper swoop) right hookers?

now I'M not following you, joe.

...if you think cars that have passed you approaching an intersection are not potential right hooks, you've got to rethink your cycling maxims, joe.

never had a car slow way down, and stop in the lane, to turn right?

you get right hooks once a week, joe. sounds like you need to do something different.

and listening to head's artifice, of him thinking he does when he thinks about bicycling, has little basis in bicycling reality, joe.

you think your 'experience' has trained you to read cars and hooks approaching from behind to the extent you can gauge a hook before the vehicle has even come parallel to your bike?
Yes. By the time they are parallel to my bike, these are the potential scenarios:


We are close enough to the right turn for me to be hooked, but they are definitely going too fast to make the turn. These guys are "blockers".
They are going fast enough and we are still far enough from the right turn that they can safely pass me and turn right without hooking me.
They are slow or slowing down, which means I slow down even more to not only avoid passing them on the right, but to get behind them before, hopefully well before, we reach the intersection. What almost always happens in such cases, if not always (I can't recall an exception), is not only do I get behind them, but I also merge left and pass them on the left. Sometimes this confuses them because they were expecting to do the Arizona/Oregon thing where they slow down and let me go (pass on their right), but I don't wish to take the chance that they are just slowing down for the turn and have not noticed me. I pass on the left. Sometimes a (b) situation suddenly turns into a (c) when the driver passes me but suddenly starts slowing. My instincts are to immediately slow down, get behind him, and pass on the left. I described such a scenario a couple of months ago in this thread. (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=274044)




:roflmao: "everyone in front of him can safely pass you and turn right without affecting you..." :roflmao: you actually BELIEVE that?
Of course. They won't affect me unless they suddenly slow way down, then it becomes a (c) situation from above.

head, your categorizing is pretty meaningless coming from a guy that hardly rides as a bike commuter.

My daily experience riding in traffic, hundreds of miles a week, year round, is that right hooks will and can occur by cars that have passed you. no guarantees that a car that has passed you won't turn into a hooking vehicle. watching cars behind you for hookers is about the most bucket of meaningless I've seen you post in a while, head. the car that hooks is abreast or ahead of the bicyclist.


but you're trying to think it through. nice armchair detective work, head.


Joe, learn the bumper swoop. get comfortable with the close pass behind. practice lane grabbing and sudden bumper swoops even when a right hook isn't apparant, like when you're merging across several lanes of high speed traffic. practice grabbing a spot immediately behind a car. immediately, like as in inches off the bumper.

what to watch for? head darts in the car ahead of you, countersteer, a wobble. a blinker :D:

does a driver initiate a turn with countersteer? :roflmao: time for a head poll....

...if you think cars that have passed you approaching an intersection are not potential right hooks, you've got to rethink your cycling maxims, joe.

never had a car slow way down, and stop in the lane, to turn right?

you get right hooks once a week, joe. sounds like you need to do something different.

and listening to head's artifice, of him thinking he does when he thinks about bicycling, has little basis in bicycling reality, joe.
When you're, say, 10 seconds from reaching the intersection, you can rule out anyone who will be at the intersection in significantly less than 10 seconds (because they can turn without affecting you), or anyone who will be there significantly after 10 seconds (because you'll be through the intersection by then).

Who does that leave? Often nobody. Sometimes it rules out all cars behind you but one car. Rarely you might not be able to rule out two cars. In any case, that's what I mean about being able to rule out all those who are not really a right hook threat due to timing factors. Again, the experienced subconscious mind can do the necessary calculations on the fly. Once you have it down to them, you can focus on them and be properly prepared.

But, when in doubt, negotiate and merge left. Here is a scenario from my commute where I never bother reading: map (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=Torrey+Pines+Rd+%26+La+Jolla+Shores+Dr,+La+Jolla,+CA+92037&sll=32.841796,-117.269474&sspn=0.00905,0.017703&ie=UTF8&om=1&ll=32.870144,-117.240745&spn=0.002262,0.004426&z=18&iwloc=addr).

I turn right from Torrey Pines Road onto La Jolla Village Drive going east. In my direction, there are three traffic lanes, plus a bike lane. My destination is to continue east on La Jolla Village Drive for a couple of miles. As soon as I turn right I may or may not get into the margin (the bike lane), depending on the traffic situation. Usually I don't. In any case, by the time I'm halfway to the first intersection with La Jolla Scenic, I'm out in the middle of the outside lane, which is straight-or-right at LJ Scenic. As I continue through this intersection I maintain my position taking the lane until I pass the mouth of the offramp to Gilman Drive, and then I will move aside if there is someone behind me who did not go down the offramp. Also, the bike lane ends at this point, or, rather it goes down the ramp. Anyway, my point is that here I often have someone behind me with a 2/3 likelihood (I'm guesstimating) that they will turn right down the ramp. So once every few days the guy behind me is continuing straight (east) with me, and, if I had known that earlier, but I never do, I could have ridden further right to let him pass me as we go past the mouth of the offramp. But, perhaps because everyone is usually starting from a stop at the La Jolla Scenic intersection red light, and it's a slight downhill, I can't seem to "read" drivers here. So, when in doubt, merge (or, as in this case, stay) left...

dangerous assumptions, head. that '10 second' rule rings hollow in real time traffic.

i sincerly doubt your abilities at reading traffic, you bike commute a few days a month, in the summer months, correct? and no transportational cycling besides a few commutes a month, correct?

head, your categorizing is pretty meaningless coming from a guy that hardly rides as a bike commuter.

My daily experience riding in traffic, hundreds of miles a week, year round, is that right hooks will and can occur by cars that have passed you. no guarantees that a car that has passed you won't turn into a hooking vehicle. watching cars behind you for hookers is about the most bucket of meaningless I've seen you post in a while, head. the car that hooks is abreast or ahead of the bicyclist.


but you're trying to think it through. nice armchair detective work, head.


Joe, learn the bumper swoop. get comfortable with the close pass behind. practice lane grabbing and sudden bumper swoops even when a right hook isn't apparant, like when you're merging across several lanes of high speed traffic. practice grabbing a spot immediately behind a car. immediately, like as in inches off the bumper.

what to watch for? head darts in the car ahead of you, countersteer, a wobble. a blinker :D:

does a driver initiate a turn with countersteer? :roflmao: time for a head poll....
Bek, do me a favor, please. Please go back through the few posts I've made in this thread and identify the words that I wrote that caused you to think that once someone passes me they are no longer a right hook threat. I have no idea which words those might have been, but I implore you to read them again, because I assure you that that is not what I wrote, and of course not what I meant.

As far as watching behind you, the purpose for that is to identify the potential hookers, and rule out the ones who cannot be a threat because of timing factors. Say you're going 15 mph and 10 seconds from an intersection. 15 mph is 22 feet/second, so you're still 220 feet from the intersection. Cars are passing you that are moving about 45, so they're going 66 feet per second. That means the guy who is 660 feet from the intersection, or 440 feet behind you, will be at the intersection about the same time as you. More importantly, the guy who is 800 feet back is too far back, and the guy who is 330 feet back, or still 110 feet behind you, will reach the intersection about 5 seconds before you, unless he slows down, which he will if he's turning right, in which case it might be only 3 or 4 seconds before you, but still not a threat. Of course, a few seconds later you reevaluate the situation, and behave accordingly, but watching behind you in a mirror is an excellent way to predict the possible futures, and rule out the impossible ones.

Of course, all of this is done almost entirely subconsiously, and is much less complicated than it sounds.

But if you think the time to start thinking about potential right hooks is after they passed you, and observing the situation behind you is not helpful, I suggest you're starting to pay attention too late.

you think a car four seconds ahead or behind of you isn't a potential right hook? :eek:

use more math, that'll confound the situation. you're watching cars 800 feet behind you and ruling them out as hooks?

again, I need to emphasise for the good of this forum, that you drive your car more than you bicycle, mr head. no offense, but you're not much of a transportational bicyclist, and i doubt your armchair analysis of riding conditions that result in right hooks.

dangerous assumptions, head. that '10 second' rule rings hollow in real time traffic.
What 10 second rule? I was using 10 seconds as an example snapshot of what's going on and how you can rule out some cars based on timing factors and how far you and they are from the intersection.



i sincerly doubt your abilities at reading traffic, you bike commute a few days a month, in the summer months, correct? and no transportational cycling besides a few commutes a month, correct?
False. I commute by bike year round, and only drive a few days a month.

???? you've mentioned numerous times about riding 0-4 days a week and how most of your cycling is weekend club rides and rides with your daughter on a trail-a-bike helping to diffuse the weekend drivers.you don't have a bike for errands or hauling stuff from the store with, but you're ALWAYS going on about cyclists you saw from your car, or driving to the dentist....

last winter, when you mentioned your blinkies, ones you didn't even know what brand you run, being on the bike you had hoisted in the rafters, that was pretty telling..... dedicated transportational bicyclists are all about visibility in the winter months, mr. head. just in case you weren't aware of that facet of year round bicycling in north america.....

i'm not going to debate your lack of cycling ,mr head, just find it imperative to let the forum know you misstate your cred about bicycling.

i'm much more intrigued by joejack stating he gets hooked once a week, then he insists he's only gotten hooked twice, while wearing high vis clothing.

another "VC" contradicts himself....

???? you've mentioned numerous times about riding 0-4 days a week and how most of your cycling is weekend club rides and rides with your daughter on a trail-a-bike helping to diffuse the weekend drivers.you don't have a bike for errands or hauling stuff from the store with, but you're ALWAYS going on about cyclists you saw from your car, or driving to the dentist....

last winter, when you mentioned your blinkies, ones you didn't even know what brand you run, being on the bike you had hoisted in the rafters, that was pretty telling..... dedicated transportational bicyclists are all about visibility in the winter months, mr. head. just in case you weren't aware of that facet of year round bicycling in north america.....

i'm not going to debate your lack of cycling ,mr head, just find it imperative to let the forum know you misstate your cred about bicycling.
If you are going to make claims about me, you should get your facts straight. My winter bike is the one with the lights and I generally stop using it in the summer. But this winter I added lights to another one of my road bikes, so now I have two bikes I can use to commute home on in the dark.

you got no cred, head. but no offense, fred, keep on riding.

you think a car four seconds ahead or behind of you isn't a potential right hook? :eek:
At 15 mph, four seconds is about 100 feet. If some car is turning right 100 feet ahead of me, yes, I don't think it's a potential right hook.


use more math, that'll confound the situation. you're watching cars 800 feet behind you and ruling them out as hooks?
No, I'm noting the cars that are potential right hooks at the next intersection, and ruling out the ones that are too far back. At 10 seconds from the turn, that would including ruling out cars that are 800 feet or more back assuming 45 mph car traffic.

A car a hundred feet ahead of you while you're travelling 15 MPH hour isn't a potential right hooker :eek: such dangerous assumptions, head. cars can and often do linger before turning for much more than four seconds, dude.


back on topic, and to reiterate my POV to joejack, " my daily experience riding in traffic, hundreds of miles a week, year round, is that right hooks will and can occur by cars that have passed you. no guarantees that a car that has passed you won't turn into a hooking vehicle. the car that hooks is abreast or ahead of the bicyclist.

Joe, learn the bumper swoop. get comfortable with the close pass behind. practice lane grabbing and sudden bumper swoops even when a right hook isn't apparant, like when you're merging across several lanes of high speed traffic. practice grabbing a spot immediately behind a car. immediately, like as in inches off the bumper.

what to watch for? head darts in the car ahead of you, countersteer, a wobble. a blinker :D

does a driver initiate a turn with countersteer? time for a head poll..."

First I look for a signal, but if it's not showing, I watch the front wheel for 'action'.

...does a driver initiate a turn with countersteer?
some do some don't

This is really good. The whole post was good but this specific point is something that I have not fully considered before. If nothing else, focussing in on the potential problem vehicles can allow me to have that extra bit of reaction time that I normally might lose by paying attention to an irrelevant passing vehicle and maybe missing a subtle cue from the hooking vehicle in the process.

I don't think not being visible causes many right hooks - they see you alright, they just have little patience, underestimate your speed and overestimate their own speed and skill, so they think they can get around you and make the turn - and of course if they don't, they expect you will brake because after all, they are bigger than you.

You gotta be careful about determining what passers are 'relevant' when it comes to hooking...remember, road intersections are just one place they can happen, indeed they seem to happen as often at driveways, entrances to parking lots, etc. That's why, in an urban environment, every passer really is a potential right hooker, because there is always an entrance or intersection of some sort just ahead of you.

As far as those nuances...one that pretty much always gives them away is catching their face in your mirror while they are behind you, before they pass - if they are making hand gestures or you see expressions of anger or their lips moving rapidly...if there is no traffic preventing them from passing and then they finally do pass...they're probably gonna hook ya. One reason why I like my Take-a-Look better than other mirrors...you get a better, clearer view without the 'objects are closer than they appear' effect which limits what kind of detail you can pick up in a glance. Once you are used to a glasses mounted mirror, you can pretty much snap your head right to where you want to view, rather than scanning around trying to get your bearings.

Another giveaway - when already in the left lane and just behind or next to you, suddenly accelerating for no apparent reason.

Maybe this video I made will give you some clues.

youtube Pu1wOyS6UAQ - Fast Right Hook (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu1wOyS6UAQ) (previously posted)

Speed about the same as previously passing white car.
Blinker only turned on after they passed me.

Other videos of right hooks: (all I have posted before)
youtube 3_iibXnV4AU - Near Right Hook while in bike lane (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_iibXnV4AU)
youtube B7jKckRlwV0 - Right Hook Avoided (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7jKckRlwV0)
youtube nszYeDuDsTM - Bike Lane at Intersection (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nszYeDuDsTM)
youtube 98a55mSPQGA - Why to avoid Bike Lane (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98a55mSPQGA)

Here a 'bent driver is right hooked:
youtube Hir5oY-h10Y - stay out of bike lane to avoid right hook (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hir5oY-h10Y)

Enjoy.
Note I have never had a collision resulting from a right hook. In many cases I saw slowing and/or blinker. But over time I have learned I can not rely on those clues. Staying out of BL or far right of road seems to be only 100% method to prevent right hooks from vehicle in outside motorist travel lane.

Al
Al, I nearly got right hooked after occupying the lane to prevent it. This JAM did a close pass and nearly turned on top of me with no signal, flipping the bird out the window the whole time.

Al, I nearly got right hooked after occupying the lane to prevent it. This JAM did a close pass and nearly turned on top of me with no signal, flipping the bird out the window the whole time.
If you were occupying the outerlane then the driver who hooked you could not have been in the outer lane when they hooked you. Maybe part of their vehicle was.
Al

bek- I am puzzled. You speak of bike conscious Seattle as a place where drivers don't right hook as they are so aware of cyclist and have learned to 'work' with bike lanes. Yet later you criticise others due to you imagining their lack of experience with right hooks. If Seattle drivers don't right hook, where do you get your current experience?

Al

Yes. By the time they are parallel to my bike, these are the potential scenarios:





I think I could classify each of the hooks in the videos using this, maybe I'd need to expand a bit.
Al

you're puzzled as to how I've experienced right hooks and potential right hooks, Al? :roflmao: unlike mr. head, I ride my bike daily. hundreds of miles a week. day and night, all weather conditions.

give me a break.

I mention a scenario where a bike lane at heavily travelled intersections has seemed to reduce drivers' hooking bicyclists. more bikes on road, greater congizance of bikes by drivers, lessened the right hooks at some intersections I ride thru.


less than 4 percent of seattle roads have bike lanes. that leaves 96 percent of roads without bike lanes. you do the math, al.

you're puzzled as to how I've experienced right hooks and potential right hooks, Al? :roflmao: unlike mr. head, I ride my bike daily. hundreds of miles a week. day and night, all weather conditions.

give me a break.
"Here, at intersections with well travelled bike lanes, drivers actually watch for bicyclists as they approach, and yield to bikes versus hooking them. specifically, At one intersection here near a park, heavily travelled by bicyclists, most traffic seems to wait for bicyclists in the bike lane to clear a free right before using it.

the bike lane, and the cognizance of cyclists in the bike lane, seems to get drivers to not hook cyclists at heavily biked Seattle intersections. i know it is counterintuitive to all the anti-bike lane propagandists on bike forums, but I see the conditions and the yielding to bikes, versus hooking in the bike lane here."

So either hooking where you ride is about the same as everywhere else or its not.

al, your insistence lane position is a cure all for hooks is perhaps, a bit stunted. right hooks can occur regardless of a rider's lane position. drivers partially crossing a lane stripe to then hook a cyclist is pretty dang common. you've never experienced a driver crossing a lane line? does the nuance of a drivers' lane position really matter if the car is hooking a bicyclist?

al, your insistence lane position is a cure all for hooks is perhaps, a bit stunted. right hooks can occur regardless of a rider's lane position. drivers partially crossing a lane stripe to then hook a cyclist is pretty dang common. you've never experienced a driver crossing a lane line? does the nuance of a drivers' lane position really matter if the car is hooking a bicyclist?
Where have I ever said lane position is a cure for all hooks?
Al