Living Car Free - Thinking about going car free, help swing me

I have been thinking about going car free for a while especially as I start go enjoy cycling more and more. But I have some concerns about making the big step.

I work a farm job during the summer, about 10 miles out of town. Its a tough job and I have to be at work at 7am, if I sold my car I would have to leave my house around 6am to make it on time but I worry about doing this and exhausting myself before and after work.

My girlfriend also says that if I sell my car I will regret it, especially when I need to go somewhere further then I am willing to peddle or when I have to carry something heavy. Right now I have a truck so its nice when we need to haul something and I worry about giving this up.

Any tips on what some of you did facing similar situations?

Thanks :)

Hi Freud.

The only thing I think anyone can really say is try it before jumping into the deep end of the pool and selling your car.

If your job is only 10 miles out, let me be the first to say that this distance is nothing, and needn't tire you out if you're in even moderately good shape, tough job or no. In fact, low-impact cycling to the job over a long period of time will probably make the job easier because you will be more aerobically fit. Bodies are amazingly hardy and resiliant, and respond best to aerobic conditioning, not anaerobic work activities.

I do long-distance touring; that's my big bicycling passion. I've done rides of over 100 miles in a single day before, often in tough, hilly terrain both here in Cali and back east in the Appalachians, and 10 miles (or 20 miles round trip) has never ripped me up in any way. Maybe that's just me though.

Again, your girlfriend may be right and you may regret it. Who knows? That's all up to you and your outlook - not her, not me, not anyone else. All you.

My advice: Don't sell the truck just yet. But try making a sort of inner pact with yourself, if you're honest enough with yourself to stick to it: Say, "OK, in the next 3 months, I will only use my truck when I feel it is for an absolutely necessary reason like hauling 400 pounds of something or driving 800 miles, but not for beer runs, dates, getting a bag of chips, or joy riding."

See if this has a beneficial impact on your life. See if you feel better about yourself. See if you like it. And see if it has an impact on how your girlfriend acts towards you too! Not to generalize too terribly, but (assuming you're American) American women don't usually look too kindly on carless men.

The thing I would worry about is that with the truck available it's too easy to jump in the truck to get to work...if you feel like sleeping in or the weather is bad. I think you should give the keys to your girlfriend..keep the truck for a while..and make a sincere effort to not use it.

The thing I would worry about is that with the truck available it's too easy to jump in the truck to get to work...if you feel like sleeping in or the weather is bad. I think you should give the keys to your girlfriend..keep the truck for a while..and make a sincere effort to not use it.
Yeah, I was car free before I sold the car, I just didn't know it. I didn't need to give the keys to anyone I just gradually stopped using it. Give the car up first, then sell it. Don't wait to sell it like I did. I could've sold it years before I did and saved a bunch of money on taxes and tags and stuff.

Hi Freud.
My advice: Don't sell the truck just yet. But try making a sort of inner pact with yourself, if you're honest enough with yourself to stick to it: Say, "OK, in the next 3 months, I will only use my truck when I feel it is for an absolutely necessary reason like hauling 400 pounds of something or driving 800 miles, but not for beer runs, dates, getting a bag of chips, or joy riding."

+1
go car-lite first. Try biking to work. stick with it for a few weeks and I think you'll find it really doesn't wear you out too much for the job. My job used to be very active (not so much anymore) and the biking just revved me up for it.
Cheers

Your Super-ego is totally giving you an Al Gore-style guilt trip about your excessive carbon emissions, your Id has excess libido energy to burn off in the form of cardiovascular exercise, your Ego is on an online forum asking for advice, and cycling helps ease cocaine withdrawals-It's a win-win-win proposition for everyone, as well as a psychoanalytic breakthrough.

Also, you don't have to sell your car, just do what many on this forum do-Park it and don't drive it for months at a time until an actual need arises for it.

What your girlfriend isn't telling you is that she is worried about going out on a date with you if you have no car.

I agree with the poster who says give her the keys for the summer. Or give them to your Dad. Just far enough away to make it inconvenient. Then try pedaling and see how it goes. To help yourself, you might want to make a bet with someone, so there is a penalty if you don't succeed.

My husband and I also had misgivings about giving up our car. But it was the best thing we ever did. And after 1.5 years car free, we are in a car-sharing program. So if we really have the need for a truck, or hybrid car, or mini, or wagon, we just book one for the hour or the day.

Check out the possibilities in your community, the money you might be spending to keep your truck in parking, insurance, maintenance, etc, could be used for a car-sharing membership. Then you have a car when you need it, and not when you don't.

We use Zipcar, but it is not available everywhere. But there are also local organizations. Best of luck!

Your Super-ego is totally giving you an Al Gore-style guilt trip about your excessive carbon emissions, your Id has excess libido energy to burn off in the form of cardiovascular exercise, your Ego is on an online forum asking for advice, and cycling helps ease cocaine withdrawals-It's a win-win-win proposition for everyone, as well as a psychoanalytic breakthrough.
:roflmao:

Go car lite first. Park your car in different places. When you can't remember where you left it, it's time to go car free.

You could resolve to always ride your bike to work whenever it's at all practical.

If you can stick with that, I'm guessing you'll be able to get to work without a car 99% of the days that you can go to work at all. If that leaves you with 20 or fewer days per year where you can't really do without a car/truck, you're better off (money wise) selling your car and renting.

Thanks for all the helpful advice,

Going out on dates isn't a problem at all. My girlfriend and I have been together for about 3 years and she also has a car. I think she just enjoys the convience of me having one too, I will admit it can be a hassle to pick me up if need be or to use her car all the time.

I live in the Willamete Valley in Oregon and for about 7 months out of the year it rains down here. Do I just buy some rain gear and tough it out? I generally bike to the bus stop and then take public transportation to campus and back then bike home. But the more I get into cycling and more specifically touring I think that biking to campus would be a good workout to warm up.(About 15 miles)

I definantly feel better when I take my bike instead of my car. I was pretty car free for a while but becuase of the weather and lack of sleep it is hard to not just sleep in and take my truck. I know the answer to this is just will power to get up a little earlier but it is hard.

Do you have any suggestions for rain gear and bags so that I can carry something like groceries? Also the rain gear should be quality, like I said it rains a lot down here, often with added wind.

Thanks for the replies so far :)

I wouldn't go carfree. It is foolish and impossible. Keep the car.

I was carfree for quite a while before getting another then I used it to go everywhere so decided to get rid of it , then also sold my motorcycle because without the temptation I have to ride my bike to go anywhere I want or need to go . It was the only way due to having a motorcycle accident which left my leg badly ( and when I say bad I mean they nearly amputated it ) broken I spent a lot of time on my butt because I couldn't really get around and laziness got the better of me so I decided for my health I had to bite the bullet and just sell them , so I did and now I have a real nice bike with panniers ready to go anywhere :D and I also bought my kids a few things and some new furniture . And now I wouldn't go back if you paid me .

I wouldn't go carfree. It is foolish and impossible. Keep the car.
Go frick yoursellf arshole. What are you doing on the carfree forum, dising our thing?:mad:

Thanks for all the helpful advice,

Going out on dates isn't a problem at all. My girlfriend and I have been together for about 3 years and she also has a car. I think she just enjoys the convience of me having one too, I will admit it can be a hassle to pick me up if need be or to use her car all the time.

I live in the Willamete Valley in Oregon and for about 7 months out of the year it rains down here. Do I just buy some rain gear and tough it out? I generally bike to the bus stop and then take public transportation to campus and back then bike home. But the more I get into cycling and more specifically touring I think that biking to campus would be a good workout to warm up.(About 15 miles)

I definantly feel better when I take my bike instead of my car. I was pretty car free for a while but becuase of the weather and lack of sleep it is hard to not just sleep in and take my truck. I know the answer to this is just will power to get up a little earlier but it is hard.

Do you have any suggestions for rain gear and bags so that I can carry something like groceries? Also the rain gear should be quality, like I said it rains a lot down here, often with added wind.

Thanks for the replies so far :)

I rode home from work 7.5 miles in the rain today and I got more smiles per mile than on a sunny day. It was fun. It wasn't very warm out, about 48 F. I had on a tee shirt, a long sleeve tee shirt, a flannel and a jean jacket with a rain jacket over that. On the bottom I had jeans covered with rain pants. I was afraid I would get over-heated but it worked out just about right. If I had over-heated I could have just shed a layer. I felt like a kid again, splashing in the puddles and laughing. It was great.

I wouldn't go carfree. It is foolish and impossible. Keep the car.

I must be superwoman then because I've never owned a car. It's not like a fresh faced youngster either.

I wouldn't go carfree. It is foolish and impossible. Keep the car.

:rolleyes: 35, been car-free all my life.

I decided about nine months ago to give myself a break from the car. It was only going to be a break for a few weeks and now it's been nine months. Most of the time it's great. I much prefer riding bikes to driving a car.

The only downside so far is that I go out at night alot less so I'm feeling kind of isolated (I'm single). I live in a suburban Los Angeles area where busses don't run late and there's not much nearby to do after dark. For some reason I don't like riding late at night very far. Maybe being female has something to do with it?

Anyway you have a GF so you may not have that issue.:)

oh and it hardly rains in LA so I can't help you much there...

Go frick yoursellf arshole. What are you doing on the carfree forum, dising our thing?:mad:

:roflmao:

Take it easy, man. I'm pretty sure he was kidding. I mean, I doubt even the president of Ford could say that living without a car is "impossible" with a straight face.

If you want to go radically car lite, you may as well go car free; a truck costs money, even if you don't use it. In addition, there's the willpower issue. In my case, I decided that it was just more practical not to have a car at all, mostly because I'm weak (I sometimes drove ten blocks just to buy coffee, and not even in the rain), but also because I actually don't need a car more than once or twice a year, so why pay all that money? In those rare instances that a truck is necessary (e.g., to haul a water heater), I borrow a truck from a friend. As for going out with the girlfriend, it depends on the girlfriend and what her values are, and on how much she likes you. (If she likes you a lot, not having a car is not an issue; if she doesn't like you, not even a nice car will help; if she's on the fence, and very materialistic, a car might tip the balance, but God help you in the long run...)

:roflmao:

Take it easy, man. I'm pretty sure he was kidding...
Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Sorry. Must have just hit me at bad time. A winky smiley would have been appropriate. :p

Try getting to work by combining bike riding and driving. Find out the difference first before jumping into car free commute if you will like the bike ride everyday. With the price of gas on the rise, it's really a good idea to ride a bike to and from places these days plus staying fit and healthy.

Sorry. Must have just hit me at bad time. A winky smiley would have been appropriate. :p
Stick around & it will become matchlessly clear. It's all good.

I have been without ownership of a car for about 7 months now, much healthier because of that. I belong to a carsharing group as one of the others mentioned as a good idea, currently using about one day a month. Hopefully that will go down as soon as I get my Xtracycle fitted. www.xtracycle.com
My commute is 6km each way and I ride up to 40km a day, average is about 18-20km at he moment. I have ridden in weather down to -15C and 8 inches of snow. Bad weather takes some preparation and extra maintenance so learning to do your own fixing is a good idea. Clothing requirements vary depending on your location, if its not that cold and you can change when you get to work/school then just remember "skin don't leak" or at least it shouldn't.;) As a way of avoiding the temptation of using the truck, can you "disable" it? i.e. if you can park it off road and pull the plate. Its still there if you "need" it, but its enough of a pain that you won't be tempted to just do it if feeling a little lazy.

Sorry. Must have just hit me at bad time. A winky smiley would have been appropriate. :p

;)

I thought I posted enough around here for you to know that I wasn't serious. I'm glad some of you did.

I have been thinking about going car free for a while especially as I start go enjoy cycling more and more. But I have some concerns about making the big step.

I work a farm job during the summer, about 10 miles out of town. Its a tough job and I have to be at work at 7am, if I sold my car I would have to leave my house around 6am to make it on time but I worry about doing this and exhausting myself before and after work.

My girlfriend also says that if I sell my car I will regret it, especially when I need to go somewhere further then I am willing to peddle or when I have to carry something heavy. Right now I have a truck so its nice when we need to haul something and I worry about giving this up.

Any tips on what some of you did facing similar situations?

Thanks :)

Just do what I did. Put your car into a tree, totally wrecking it in the process of course.

There, now that the temptation to drive has been taken care of, you'll be amazed at how easy it is to go car free. Even in the rain and the snow. The winter is my fav. part, all the cars give you extra room cause they think your F*ing nuts, and theres no other bikers taking up the MUPs and right sides of the lane when your on the road.

I hadn't ridden a bike in years before my accident, and even as a kid I never really took to them, but now I couldn't imagine living with out Susan(my bike), and it hasn't even been a full year yet.

Other plus's:
Say good bye to dieting if your the type like me that needs to watch what you eat or else turn into a fatty
Say hello to awsome legs
Say hello to better health in general

And you already have a GF, so you don't even have to worry about dating with out a car.

;)

I thought I posted enough around here for you to know that I wasn't serious. I'm glad some of you did.

Sorry I took you seriously. I'm still getting to know who is who here. And I really do come across people who think car free is impossible.

Sorry I took you seriously. I'm still getting to know who is who here. And I really do come across people who think car free is impossible.

I do to, I also come across people that think I am totally nutz for riding in traffic or riding a bike period, much less owning more than one ;) :D (last inventory was 26...I know, I know I have a problem:rolleyes: :p ) I personally think that people who unequivocally state that car free living is impossible aren't willing to make any changes in their status quo, however I think they may be forced to very soon. FWIW I am not car free and by most counts not even car light. However I minimize the use of my vehicle at every opportunity. I am currently working out of town at a project, starting in 3 weeks I will be able to commute to work by bicycle and leave the truck parked during the week!:beer: However the every other weekend trip home still adds up to over 10k miles a year:eek: :(

Aaron

For me the choice to become carfree is part of an overall effort to bring my life into line with my ideology. As some of you may have surmised from other posts I have made, I abhore the the capitalist system and its rampant globalization. Of course there is no way, that I know of, to completely divest myself from that system because it is so pervasive. But I can choose to participate in it as little as possible. Hence I avoid commercialism/blind consummerism, buying what I need second-hand almost exclusively, don't watch TV, don't spray chemicals on the yard, etc. To be car free is to choose not to participate in two very large and very destructive industries, the petroleum industry and the auto industry.

:roflmao:

Take it easy, man. I'm pretty sure he was kidding. I mean, I doubt even the president of Ford could say that living without a car is "impossible" with a straight face.
Oh, I don't know. Though David's post may not have been serious, some posters on this list do make some pretty wacky over-the-top economic/political/sociological statements/rants (that have nothing to do with bicycling or living car free) and are dead serious about 'em. Doncha think?

Oh, I don't know. Though David's post may not have been serious, some posters on this list do make some pretty wacky over-the-top economic/political/sociological statements/rants (that have nothing to do with bicycling or living car free) and are dead serious about 'em. Doncha think?

I suppose that depends on your perspective and how good you are at connecting the dots. Ultimately, economics, politics and sociological considerations have a strong bearing on the choices we make including the choice to be car free, (at least for some of us).

I suppose that depends on your perspective and how good you are at connecting the dots. Ultimately, economics, politics and sociological considerations have a strong bearing on the choices we make including the choice to be car free, (at least for some of us).
Possibly. Of course, conversely, we have some who think their car free sympathies gives credence to any/every nutty statement they make/hear about economics, politics and sociological considerations.

Don't feed the trolls.

Don't feed the trolls.
+1

Don't feed the trolls


+1

You guys are right. Especially the thought police :eek:

You guys are right. Especially the thought police :eek:
It's not the thought police, it's just our friend Sméagol looking for a fish.

It's not the thought police, it's just our friend Sméagol looking for a fish.

"What'sss it got in itssss pocketsesss? My precioussss...It's ot my preciousssss."

I remember my dad reading that to us kids with most of the lights out. Scared the crap out of us!

Of course going carfree shouldn't be quite that scary, but I know it's a big step for a lot of people when they're starting out. (Posting on Bikeforums shouldn't be scary either but sometimes it is!)

Freud, I think you're asking the right questions and going through the right thought processes to make the transition. Even though your girlfriend doesn't agree, it sounds like she'll be supportive of your decision? That would be your bigest hurdle, I think, getting her support.

The second biggest hurdle is commuting to work. You must be in pretty good shape if you're working on a farm. Like others said, I don't think a 10 mile ride will bother you, but there's only one way to find out. Also, you're allowing yourself an hour to do the commute. It probably won't take nearly that long. A 10 mile trip on country roads will usually take a young rider only about 30 minutes. Even an old guy like me could do it in 35 on a good day, 40 on a bad day.

As for getting wet.... You work outside all day, if I'm reading it right. What do you do about rain in that case? For me, if it's cold I'll wear rain gear. If it's warm I wear quick drying shorts and T shirt, and let my riding clothes dry out while I'm working.

You guys are right. Especially the thought police :eek:
Yep. The thought police who prefer an electronic PC group hug from their tiny support group over any intelligent discussion.

Yep. The thought police who prefer an electronic PC group hug from their tiny support group over any intelligent discussion.
And your hugs are the bestest hugs of all!

:love:

Yep. The thought police who prefer an electronic PC group hug from their tiny support group over any intelligent discussion.

So you're saying that what you have to say is sooo much more intelligent than what anyone else here does. Nice hubris there. Why, you're a regular (Excuse me while I laugh my arse off for a second) Diogenes!

Anyway, by your own, uh, admission, the lowly discussion here is a great indicator that you're well above our group of intellectually-challenged PC dummies and that you should stop wasting your time by posting here ever again, especially if you're going to post the same tiresome messages over and over and over and over and over (and over) again. Unintelligent people like us just can't learn, you know? We're zealots, what can we say?

I think we should make a sticky, so that you don't ever have to post your monotonous, boorish, and unbelievably boring (but oh-so-superintelligent) drivel here - ever - titled, "What ILTB thinks of the car-free forum," with the following message:


"Some people like to proselytize about the self-righteous car-free life with their social/political/environmental eco-nanny, morally pure, unintelligent PC group hug conversations, and that's all they ever talk about. Ever. Well, I need my car and so do most people who have kids or don't live in sunny places, or who work jobs that make them travel thousands of miles every day, and some of us don't like the idea of living irresponsible, childless lives in major cities in rat-infested slums, digging into dumpsters for our daily food like car-free people do, or having to hear about how awful all of us totally responsible "cagers" are doing anything wrong by using cars for every bit of transportation we engage in. Cars of course are completely innocent and exponentially wonderful things. I think the car-free forum is bad for bicycle advocacy™ and shouldn't exist."

I'm pretty sure I just about covered the overwhelming majority of the hundreds (thousands?) of posts you've ever delivered in here with that one paragraph, and I tried to include your favorite buzzwords to make it satisfactory to you. I even included your trademark that makes you think you're so e-clever: The charmap trademark (™) symbol! Only intelligent people use that! Admittedly, I embellished with the "innocent cars" remark and will happily remove it, but - funny enough - I've never seen you argue against a completely pro-car person here or suggest otherwise, so I naturally assume you would approve.

Mods, can we get this sticky, pretty please, so that he can just shut the hell up forever and stop trying to start petty internet arguments in here with the exact same statements in threads that have nothing to do* with what he's talking about? I think that would be really good for bicycle advocacy™.

PS: ILTB, you're a joke. And you're about as intelligent as a frozen pizza, even if you correctly use the word "chimera" once in awhile. I would bet real money that you don't know how to pronounce it though.

PPS to the other unintelligentsia: Sorry for taking on the troll, but when I'm in the mood I consider him a target, not someone to back away from. He's easy like Sunday morning to me. Dunno about you dummies, though.

*Anyone notice that davidmcowan's joke about how impossible it is to be car-free had nothing to do with wacky, over-the-top economic/political/sociological statements/rants, and yet ILTB still took it in that direction? He's not only superintelligent, he's incongruously superintelligent! What an absolute flower of humanity!

Originally Posted by ILTB [made up of Alekhine's cute fabrications and strawmen arguments with a hint of truthful quoting]


Sorry Prof, your fabrications and derisions don't carry weight because you believe you are clever with your fabricated quotes.

Just in case someone believes your cute lies about what I have posted, I have revised your fabrication.

Originally Posted by ILTB =False

"Some people like to proselytize about the self-righteous car-free life with their social/political/environmental eco-nanny, morally pure, unintelligent PC group hug conversations,"=True enough

"and that's all they ever talk about. Ever." =False

"Well, I need my car" = False

"and so do most people who have kids or don't live in sunny places," = True enough

"or who work jobs that make them travel thousands of miles every day," False; Alekhine Straw man argument

"and some of us don't like the idea of living irresponsible, childless lives in major cities in rat-infested slums, digging into dumpsters for our daily food, or having to hear about how awful all of us" = True enough

"totally responsible "cagers" are doing anything wrong by using cars for every bit of transportation we engage in." False; Alekhine Straw man argument

"Cars of course are completely innocent and exponentially wonderful things. I think the car-free forum is bad for bicycle advocacy™ and shouldn't exist." False; more Alekhine Straw man arguments

Sorry Prof, your fabrications and derisions don't carry weight because you believe you are clever with your fabricated quotes.

Just in case someone believes your cute lies about what I have posted, I have revised your fabrication.

Originally Posted by ILTB =False

"Some people like to proselytize about the self-righteous car-free life with their social/political/environmental eco-nanny, morally pure, unintelligent PC group hug conversations,"=True enough

"and that's all they ever talk about. Ever." =False

"Well, I need my car" = False

"and so do most people who have kids or don't live in sunny places," = True enough

"or who work jobs that make them travel thousands of miles every day," False; Alekhine Straw man argument

"and some of us don't like the idea of living irresponsible, childless lives in major cities in rat-infested slums, digging into dumpsters for our daily food, or having to hear about how awful all of us" = True enough

"totally responsible "cagers" are doing anything wrong by using cars for every bit of transportation we engage in." False; Alekhine Straw man argument

"Cars of course are completely innocent and exponentially wonderful things. I think the car-free forum is bad for bicycle advocacy™ and shouldn't exist." False; more Alekhine Straw man arguments

The problem is, of course, I can only go back to 500 of your posts through search to provide evidence to the contrary, and you post so much that this only takes me back to mid April. Well, that and the fact that for all your superintelligence, you can't tell the difference between "lies" and sarcasm.

But this doesn't matter. The last thing I would want to be is your spokesman, but you have definitely asserted that this forum is bad for bicycle advocacy and should be relegated to P&R. Are you going to deny that? Er, excuse me, you just did. If I have the time, I'll try to find it. Aside from the admittedly sardonic "cars are wonderful and innocent" statement (again, I don't think you've ever said that - I was being a smartass), it's the only one that's too far back for me to find through search without literally scouring every post in this forum's history, which I'm not willing to do right now. As for the rest...


"or who work jobs that make them travel thousands of miles every day," False; Alekhine Straw man argument

Yeah, it's probably actually fewer than thousands of miles (making my argument more pronounced, not less), but you did say this (http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=4021144&postcount=8). Strawman? Incidentally, why would you say false to this? Even I, crazy anticar zealot, would say that a person who works a job that makes them travel thousands of miles a day would likely need a damned car - that or a superman cape.


"Well, I need my car" = False

This (http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=4406234&postcount=4) and this (http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=4406197&postcount=22) both confirm your position towards the "need" aspect of car-ownership. It's no strawman. Nice try though. Again, revise my quote as you will. It's your tired statements we're talking about here, not mine. Unhappy that I said that "you" in particular need your car? Tough. You still assert that it's a need, not a want, but I'll happily revise it to not include you personally, for whatever purpose that serves. As we all know, this is all about you.


"and that's all they ever talk about. Ever." =False

I'm not sure, but there's a totality to this statement (http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=4474316&postcount=5) that suggests that a curious person looking to find practical issues with car-free living won't find them, despite the numerous threads on the current first page alone that have (whoa) nothing to do with social/political/economic rants. You said it, not me. Alekhine strawman?

In any case, it's amusing that you should only take issue with that comical suggestion of mine that there be a sticky that describes your BS, and you took it so seriously too. In the whole scheme of things, you just don't like me talking for you, which is funny because you tend to try to talk for the entire forum here (or should I say list, to appear pre-1997 computer-savvy?) nearly every time you post. I think that you most object to your own methods being used against you, but how could I know that? I really don't claim to post for you. It's really your job to post about what others think, not mine.

1) P-K4 P-Q4
2) PxP QxP

1) P-K4 P-Q4
2) PxP QxP

Ahh, the good ol' Scotch.

What else other than 3. N-QB3?

Bxf7 Checkmate.

Bxf7 Checkmate.
The point is, don't bring yer queen out like that.

I'm not completely carless since my wife has a car. But I'm not buy myself one. I go everywhere (work, church, grocery shopping, etc) on my bike and it works for me just fine.

I don't know what it is but riding my bike also gives me satisfaction thinking that I can tell the ------- that they can keep their oil.

GreenAnvil

The point is, don't bring yer queen out like that.

My fault for calling it the Scotch. Dunno why I said that; maybe because I've been drinking Scotch tonight.

'Tis the center-counter opening/Scandinavian.

Anyway, ya...lousy opening for black for exactly that reason.

My fault for calling it the Scotch. Dunno why I said that; maybe because I've been drinking Scotch tonight.
Note to self, Scotch Opening very different effects from opening a scotch, haw! :roflmao: