"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - T-Mobile doping mess - more widespread

Well, this doping scandal broke wide open today. Should be an interesting press conference tomorrow. What do you think? Will T-Mobile call it quits at the end of the year a la Phonak? How many more of those T-Mobile racers of yore will confess? Should Aldag keep his job? So many questions. SO many dopers.

Link?

I understand Rudolph Hess is going to confess too...

Old, old news.

Riders are using this as an opportunity to clear the air or get into the media. Skippy came out with this when he published a book. Not sure why Dietz is doing it, but it's good to see it. Apparently the doctors who administered TMobile's PED program are connected to a University; they have now confessed. These revelations will affect the lives of those involved. Jobs and reputations sullied. But they cheated, so....

I wonder if they'll come clean about the 50 watt motors that were hidden in the T-Mobile TT bikes at last year's TDF :p :D. Their team's domination of the stage was fishy - to say the least.

I'm not at all concerned about who did what over 10 years ago. Sure, the T-Mobile DS's are talking out of both sides of their mouths saying how nobody associated with the team has doped. As far as I'm concerned either come forward and say you're doping now or STFU. Let sleeping dogs lie. This witch hunt of a bygone era is going to kill the sport today.

Link?
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/may07/may24news

This witch hunt of a bygone era is going to kill the sport today.
Based on today's news, it does not to appear to be a witch hunt. As to whether or not the exposure of numerous previously unknown doping instances may hurt the sport of today, I say let the truth affect the sport as it will. In fact, there are enough current doping scandals that they may, in and of themselves, "kill the sport." Heck I'm beginning - mind you just beginning- to think that may not be a bad thing.

I understand Rudolph Hess is going to confess too...

Old, old news.
Read the article and I think you will find some new news. Heck one of the Drs just today admitted that his previous statements were lies.

The german press likes this sort of stuff, just like the french. Careers will be built on it. There is also always a political angle with state funded sporting and the east/west ghosts.

Doctors will start to see that the riders can turn on them and their careers and reputations will also be affected. This could act as a deterent. Of course, the almighty euro/dollar/sheckel will still entice those with poor judgement. Wasn't Ferrari being roasted while Fuentes was feeding the buffalo?

Read the article and I think you will find some new news. Heck one of the Drs just today admitted that his previous statements were lies.

Rudolph Hess lied too. So did Hitler. They just admitted it. That's new.

Look, NO ONE but the most obtuse Lance fan believes there wasn't widespread, systematic doping in the 90's. Does the name Festina ring a bell? It's not like these guys are confessing to a murder someone else has been convicted for.

So I'm going to make a confession myself:

I've been breathing oxygen since birth. Yep, you heard it here first and I'm sure you're startled to find this out. Just like I am that T-Mobile was doping back then. EVERYBODY who won was. And most of the guys who weren't winning. It's like saying you smoked pot in the 60's or indulged in Peruvian nose candy in the 80's. Who didn't?

I'm reminded of the tribe of native americans that celebrated each morning when the sun came up.

It's what you're doing now that matters. By all indications there are teams like T Mobile and CSC that are trying to do the right thing, and teams like Disco that can't see beyond their own self interest and will continue to hire dopers and wallow in denial. Some people grow and learn from their mistakes. And who better to lead the fight than people who have been in that gutter?

Zabel joins in the fray with his confession. Happily he didn't try to seek the lowest moral common denominator by comparing it with breathing.

Is Walter Godefroot in hiding? Oh, he's with Astana now, isn't he?

Is Walter Godefroot in hiding? Oh, he's with Astana now, isn't he?
Yea but he is clean...clearly...I mean no way he knew about doping on the team he was managing when it was only just about every rider, the team doctors and the soigneurs were part of it....


Former team manager Walter Godefroot, now with Team Astana, said, "Dietz was paid to say that. If Erik Zabel said something like that, it would be a different matter.
OOPS :D

I think he's probably saying something like Vinokurtov:

Godefroot: "Why dredge up the past? It's what we are doing now that counts. I may have been associated with systematically robbing honest athletes of their just deserts by helping dope my athletes to the gill so we could get all the victories, but that's in the past. Those losers shouldn't be concerned that they went out and trained 40 hours a week in all weather and then watched our guys just ride away from them. After all, it's not like we're war criminals or something. Let's focus on the present. Look at my Astana riders. None of them have tested positive!"

Journalist: "Errr, Mr. Godefroot. Zabel never tested positive either."

Godefroot: "There you go digging up old news again! Stop being so negative!"

Will T-Mobile call it quits at the end of the year a la Phonak?

T-Mobile is in the midst of a strike. Their president mentioned that they would be looking at cost cutting and that advertising and sponsorships, specifically cycling, were at the top of the list.

My guess is that between that info and the doping, they are gone. Based on the way professionals were hanging on to the spectator barricades the other day in Italy, this is the cleanest the peloton's been in a long time.

Can't wait for the Dolomites. How many DNF's??

Zabel joins in the fray with his confession. Happily he didn't try to seek the lowest moral common denominator by comparing it with breathing.

Is Walter Godefroot in hiding? Oh, he's with Astana now, isn't he?

This is from good old Walt the day before the Zabel confession:

Former team manager Walter Godefroot, now with Team Astana, said, "Dietz was paid to say that. If Erik Zabel said something like that, it would be a different matter. I have never made my riders take illegal medications. I can tell you the names of 20 people who can swear that I have never recommended illegal medications."


Well I guess it's a different matter now.

Look I agree with Vinokurtov, for everyone to be up in arms about cyclist admitting doping from the 90's is a bit much. If anyone thinks that doping in the 90's was limited to the Festina Affair you dead wrong. I'm just waiting for his royal highness Riis to chime in about how he rode clean!

I'm just waiting for his royal highness Riis to chime in about how he rode clean!

You mightn't have to wait long. He's announced a press conference tomorrow.

Look I agree with Vinokurtov, for everyone to be up in arms about cyclist admitting doping from the 90's is a bit much. If anyone thinks that doping in the 90's was limited to the Festina Affair you dead wrong. I'm just waiting for his royal highness Riis to chime in about how he rode clean!But, it isn't about being up in arms. That type of hyperbole minimizes the crime and blunts our ability to respond in an appropriate manner. It's about trying to clean up the sport. This is exposure of a dirty lie. Sure, "everyone knew", but no one could or would do anything. Now it's coming out, it's exposed. If any niavete existed about these people, it is erased. If anyone was saying, oh, they would never do that, they have stopped saying it. The people involved will hopefully be sanctioned. Perhaps young riders will see the possibility for a level playing field in this sport and turn towards it instead of away from it.

And these riders are really the only ones who can do this. Zabel, Dietz, Skippy, they can't be retaliated against by the "road warriors" who insist on buying into the mob mentality. No one can knock Dietz or Skippy down now and break their collar bone. No one can ride up to a break they're in and tell the riders in the break to get rid of one of the riders because that rider spoke out and broke the code of silence. Since these riders are retired, there offenses were obviously from the past. Does that mean we should just shrug our shoulders and say, "Ah, just ignore it. They were good boys who got caught up in something everybody was doing." I don't think the riders who are confessing want this. Why should we?

Here is my list of teams that have not commited doping offences in the last 10 years.








I think I named them all. Let me know if I missed any.

Lol...I swear to G**, Betty Ford is going to be in the Comminsioner's car this July! :roflmao:

Here is my list of teams that have not commited doping offences in the last 10 years.








I think I named them all. Let me know if I missed any.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Based on today's news, it does not to appear to be a witch hunt. As to whether or not the exposure of numerous previously unknown doping instances may hurt the sport of today, I say let the truth affect the sport as it will. In fact, there are enough current doping scandals that they may, in and of themselves, "kill the sport." Heck I'm beginning - mind you just beginning- to think that may not be a bad thing.



I have already come to the conclusion that they are going to need to have a complete breakdown of sponsorship support before anything will be done to clean up this sport. No shock that T-Mobile is going to pull out. At this point, your image is not being helped by associating with a dirty team, a dirty former star (sorry RyanF) and being part of a sport that is at this point, along with baseball, the poster child for cheating athletes.


I know some people think this will not kill the sport. Well - cycling may survive, and the Grand Tours may survive, but the money for these athletes is going to dry up. My biggest problem is with obstructionist athletes like Bettini and Pereiro. They are ******** up the future of this sport, all for their OWN short term gain. Any cyclist coming up in the nest 10 years will most likely encounter a different economic environment, all because these guys could not possibly race clean. That is why, for the sake of future riders, there needs to be a sudden and quick decline in sponsorship monies. We need to see all of these riders realize that their paychecks will continue to suffer until they can provide sponsors with clear evidence that the sport can police itself, and ensure clean riders.

I think a big sign is going to be to see whether Team Disco announces the new sponsor prior to the TdF, and if so, what the terms of the agreement are as compared to the current Disco agreement. Given the Basso and other relevations, I have a feeling Team Disco is having trouble getting a sponsor to kick in the $$$$ this team has been used to since the Postal days.

Also - Team CSC this year implemented a much stricter doping policy. I find it interesting that in Stage 10, one of their riders (Andy Schleck) literally rode to the point of hit utmost limits and DiLuca (on a team without a stringent anti-doping plan this year) dropped him like Andy was some CAT 3 rider. I am sorry - but someone like DiLuca (not known for being a great Grand Tour rider in the first place) just does not drop such a future star like Schleck that easily. I am deeply suspicious to say the least.


Also - the commentators on Cycling.Tv mentioned they had never seen riders in those conditions in quite some time. Hmmmmm - I wonder why this is?

I think he's probably saying something like Vinokurtov:

Godefroot: "Why dredge up the past? It's what we are doing now that counts. I may have been associated with systematically robbing honest athletes of their just deserts by helping dope my athletes to the gill so we could get all the victories, but that's in the past. Those losers shouldn't be concerned that they went out and trained 40 hours a week in all weather and then watched our guys just ride away from them. After all, it's not like we're war criminals or something. Let's focus on the present. Look at my Astana riders. None of them have tested positive!"

Journalist: "Errr, Mr. Godefroot. Zabel never tested positive either."

Godefroot: "There you go digging up old news again! Stop being so negative!"

Actually that wasn't what I said at all...but:

So how many riders were "clean" back in the mid 90's? And who were they? And what, exactly, would you like to do about it? Erase all the finishing records down to the guys who didn't confess? Would you throw out everybody in the sport who doped ten or more years ago who is still involved? Who, exactly, would that leave? And how far back would you like to go in the sport?

Go do some reading if you believe many riders were clean back then. Kimmage and Voet both speak to that. Clean riders were the exception, not the rule.

The reason I don't care about confessions to ten year old doping practices is:

A) You can't fix the past

B) It wasn't a criminal act back then, even if it was the statute o' limitations has run out

C) It's like pointing out the sky was blue back then

Puerto is relevant today. The 1996 TDF is not. It just takes time and energy away from working on today's problems.

And to extrapolate my take on old allegations to the present situation is something that dovetails nicely in your own mind but not to anything I've written. I specifically didn't address Astana because, like the beloved Disco team, they've done nothing to make me believe they are serious about changing the sport. And when T-Mobile institutes tighter controls, and certain riders move to another team even though the money is the same, it makes you go hmmmmmm.

I believed Riis doped, along with everybody who finished in the top ten the year he won the TDF. I also believe he is bright enough to realize that, in today's world, doping could kill his team, so he's more likely being practical in his actions even though he knows other teams are still cheating, rather than a moralist about this. He's a Dane. They are nothing if not practical. Which is why he doped in the TDF.

Or do you believe that Cunego suddenly became a great "clean'" time trialist in last year's TDF when the white jersey was on the line? Shades of Pantani's Giro win and guess who the DS is at his team?

I find it interesting that in Stage 10, one of their riders (Andy Schleck) literally rode his heart out, ...
Did someone pick it up? Did they keep it or give it back to Schleck or the team?

Did someone pick it up? Did they keep it or give it back to Schleck or the team?

I think some guy just listed it on Ebay.

...I don't care about confessions to ten year old doping practices... The 1996 TDF is not...<snip>relevant<snip>. You don't care about confessions to ten year old doping practices when they are made by a rider currently riding and when they impact managers, doctors, and workers in this profession who are still working in this sport? Huh?:eek: Walter Godefroot is still managing, as is Bjarne Riis; Jan ullrich is still under investigation, so the 1996 TDF is extremely relevant.

And if a rider who cheated admits he won a race by cheating, doesn't this allow those who were beaten by the cheater to stake some claim on what they deserve? Ask Mick Rogers. Ask Ekimov. Ask them if you can fix the past.

If society were to take your point of view about things that happened in the past but weren't found out till later, think of the implications for child molestation victims, war crimes victims, on and on.

The present and the future are built on the past. If we can't change the past, at least we can try to make past mistakes right, fix them, so they don't impact the future.

I think some guy just listed it on Ebay.

Link please - I sure could use Schleck's heart for the Mt. Hood Classic. :)

Ask Ekimov.

:roflmao:

Yes, those Russians and eastern Euros had absolutely no systemic doping practices. Other than the state sponsored ones. That are on record. Ekimov. That's a good one. I'll ask about those vitamins.

Unless you're deep inside one of these teams, you can't point to a single rider who was clean (again, see Voet and Kimmage's books). What part of this is shocking to anyone but a noob?

Nope, don't care what they did ten years ago while 97% of the other riders were doing the same thing.

Just like I wouldn't preclude drug counselors from having the straw up their nose ten years ago.

And you never answered my question as to what you'd like to do about these ten year old "revelations", other than be righteously indignant about what one doper did to another doper back in the heyday of EPO?

We've known all we need to know to move on. The rest is just National Enquirer gossip.

If society were to take your point of view about things that happened in the past but weren't found out till later, think of the implications for child molestation victims, war crimes victims, on and on.

Comparing a bike race to any of the above is an insult to the very people you mention. Are you that obtuse not to see the difference between murder, crimes against humanity, and cheating at sport?

I can differentiate between the two as to the degree of importance and the relevance of righting past wrongs. If you believe I, as you, can't, then please quote me where I've disregarded any of the above crimes as irrelevant.

insults, personal attacks, and other attempts to divert the discussion in the complete absence of rational argument.What about Mick Rogers? You didn't even touch on that. And you are aware that Ekimov finished second to Tyler in the Olympics, right? You're saying we should ignore this because of Russia's alleged doping practices? Do you think if you asked these riders they would say, "Nah, just forget it. Don't do anything about it." If that is the case, why did Mick Rogers wear the world champion stripes? Shouldn't he have refused to wear them cause, "you can't fix the past."

These confessions are good for the sport, dealing with past mistakes and holding people responsible is a universally acknowledge way to make a better future, and burying our heads in the sand will only create more problems.

What about Mick Rogers? You didn't even touch on that.
O.K. I'll do it. How are you so certain that Rogers isn't just as guilty of doping as Millar? I know it's the obvious response, but you just seem to be begging for it.

Here is my list of teams that have not commited doping offences in the last 10 years.








I think I named them all. Let me know if I missed any.


You forgot






but that's all i think.

:roflmao:

Yes, those Russians and eastern Euros had absolutely no systemic doping practices. Other than the state sponsored ones. That are on record. Ekimov. That's a good one. I'll ask about those vitamins.


Dude, before you get all high and mighty, the US had a well known Olympic doping program in the 80s co-run with Nike.

1984.
Legal (under IOC).

O.K. I'll do it. How are you so certain that Rogers isn't just as guilty of doping as Millar? I know it's the obvious response, but you just seem to be begging for it.So you're suggesting that since one person dopes, everyone should be penalized, whether they test positive or not?

I'm trying to look at the substance of what you're saying here, not the obvious circulus in probando that you introduce, that is, "begging the question", "circular argument", by introducing a proposition that cannot be proved(whether or not Rodgers doped) and as such is designed to take the discussion off track.

What exactly are you suggesting? Everyone should be penalized on general principle because we all have the potential to do wrong???:rolleyes:

So you're suggesting that since one person dopes, everyone should be penalized, whether they test positive or not?
I thought I was suggesting that if the premise was dopers shouldn't be rewarded that it doesn't make sense to take a medal from a confirmed doper and give it to a potential one. As should be obvious, Millar and Rogers have exactly the same record in terms of passing doping controls.

I thought I was suggesting that if the premise was dopers shouldn't be rewarded that it doesn't make sense to take a medal from a confirmed doper and give it to a potential one. As should be obvious, Millar and Rogers have exactly the same record in terms of passing doping controls.It is obvious that their records in testing are the same, but one confessed to doping and the other did not. Those records are exactly opposite. And I'm sure you don't really mean that the officials should have refused Rodgers the medal because of his potential to do wrong.

The premise I'm really trying to hash out here really has nothing to do with Rodgers, He is only an example of a rider who benefited when a doper confessed and the past was fixed by Rodgers being given the World Championship. Vinokurtov made the assertion that we should not go back and try to fix the past,
A) You can't fix the past
, (the past being injustices caused by dopers), because "they all did it", or his revised number was "97%" of them did it. I'm simply saying confession is good for the sport; it gives us an opportunity to correct wrongs; it makes people accountable; and it lays the ground work for a more positive future.

I think any reasonable person would agree with these things. Picture yourself trying to convince your child that what he/she did in the past doesn't matter anymore. People here just get caught up in defending their point of view rather than doing/saying what is right.

Dude, before you get all high and mighty, the US had a well known Olympic doping program in the 80s co-run with Nike.

. . .and how could we ever forget Ben Johnson, "the fastest man on earth"

But more to the point, I like Ekimov and all but almost anyone who came out of the Warsaw-block has to be looked at with some amount of suspicion.

He is only an example of a rider who benefited when a doper confessed and the past was fixed by Rodgers being given the World Championship.
By your definition the past was fixed. It could just as well be argued that nothing was changed. The title may well have gone from one drugged rider who never tested positive to another drugged rider who never tested positive. The only difference being the current state of who's confessed. If you're arguing for righting historical wrongs, you better make sure you have the correct solution.

By your definition the past was fixed. It could just as well be argued that nothing was changed. The title may well have gone from one drugged rider who never tested positive to another drugged rider who never tested positive. The only difference being the current state of who's confessed. If you're arguing for righting historical wrongs, you better make sure you have the correct solution.ok.:rolleyes:

The german press likes this sort of stuff, just like the french. Careers will be built on it. There is also always a political angle with state funded sporting and the east/west ghosts.

Hahahahahahahaahahahha, funny post.

Hahahahahahahaahahahha, funny post.

. . .that's my impression and I've worked for Deutsche Welle.

Did someone pick it up? Did they keep it or give it back to Schleck or the team?

i didn't want to laugh, but i had to. i think there is a seinfeld episode about the word literally. :)

as far as diluca goes, he was a really good rider two years ago and had a really bad season, comparatively, last year. i would not be surpised if he loses time and the lead later in the race, but it is early in the race and the climbs, although tough, are not killers (pardon the pun) yet. according to belgian tv (as told to me by someone on bike forums) schleck wasn't even the gc man for csc entering the giro. i guess i am not really that surprised about diluca's performance so far compared to that of schleck who is on what, his first grand tour?

. . .and how could we ever forget Ben Johnson, "the fastest man on earth"


Wait, I thought after the Atlanta Olympics the US media proclaimed Michael Johnson the “fastest man on Earth”. You know, the same Michael Johnson that was implicated in the Balco scandal.

Then of course there are Tim Montgomery and his wife Marion Jones. Both 100 meter world record holders - one admitted user of HGH and the other still skirting accusations.

Wait, I thought after the Atlanta Olympics the US media proclaimed Michael Johnson the “fastest man on Earth”. You know, the same Michael Johnson that was implicated in the Balco scandal.


Michael Johnson obviously decided to take the tried-and-true Canadian method as pioneered by BJ.:roflmao:

Dude, before you get all high and mighty, the US had a well known Olympic doping program in the 80s co-run with Nike.

Duh.

Laughing about the Soviet block doping programs is hardly getting high and mighty Doc. You might go back and read my blanket condemnation of our all time fav USA Team O' Choice, Disco.

Skinny used Eki as an example of someone who was shorted by others taking drugs. I thought this was pretty poorly considered. As was his extrapolating my general yawning at decade old stuff everybody knew about bike racing with my supposed approval of child molestation and the genocide in Rwanda...or whatever.

If he had used Grewal (sic?) or any of those guys, I would have had the same response. Though at the time it was legal.

Skinny's take on Mick Rodger's is worth an :roflmao: also. How many years were you his private physician and hematologist? Given that we know a fair number of his competitors who he beat were doping...

Confessions to the obvious well past the expiration date just amount to hand wringing. Basso's confession has a lot more relevance, though it's half a$$ed at best (also see Zabel, Eric and Musseuw, Johan). It would be even better if he came clean about who set him up with Puerto, or did he happen to be walking down a street in Spain one day and see a sign...

And if anyone thinks this is going to open up the floodgates for current riders to start throwing themselves on the sword about recent transgressions if they aren't under investigation or think they can weasel by, I have some swamp land in Manitoba I'm willing to let go cheap.




See: Hamilton, Tyler.

Michael Johnson obviously decided to take the tried-and-true Canadian method as pioneered by BJ.:roflmao:

Dick Pound said BJ was an innocent victim.

You want to fix a past mistake? Start with that guy.

If he had used Grewal (sic?) or any of those guys, I would have had the same response. Though at the time it was legal.
I don't follow. Are you saying there is something wrong with using legal methods to improve performance?

Zabel is still my favorite.