Vehicular Cycling (VC) - VC vs Bike Lanes vs Incompetent Cyclists

I ride in the door zone all the time..... it's impossible not to many times. To be out of the door zone has one on the line between the two same direction lanes. Curb lanes are filled with parked after 9am, until you get right into the core ...then it's cabs and deliveries. I try to maintain a fall zone, so if I pitch over I won't partially land on the sidewalk or slam a pole that is two inches in from the edge of the side walk. Seeing a cyclist eat a planter or a parking meter is no fun.

The reasons to vacate clean, wide, plainly marked bike lanes in favor of the middle of a "freewayified" road are:

A) to prepare for a left turn
Fair enough. This is not riding around in the middle of the road, however. It is crossing the road to get to a left turn lane. Moreover, on a "freeway" road you may find yourself "negotiating" with 70 MPH traffic. This is generally such a one-sided affair that it is often not worth the trouble and danger. I'm sure it chafes a certain kind of "I have rights!!!" cyclist, but sometimes just pressing the signal button and crossing in the crosswalk is the best option.

One thing that I nearly overlooked, though -- and a thing that demonstrates that one needs to visualize the situations before writing about them -- the reason it's "freewayified" is that there aren't any intersections. So where is our boy making a left turn?


B) during significantly long gaps in fsdt to make yourself more conspicuous sooner to traffic that will be approaching from behind, once they appear (on the assumption that a driver whose attention is grabbed by a cyclist up ahead is going to be less likely to choose to attend to a distraction before he passes that cyclist, thus reducing the chances that he will be inattentive and inadvertently drift as he passes the cyclist).
And again, we're talking about a young freeway. There are generally not going to be signifigant gaps. "Defaulting center" on these roads would mean continually veering in and out of traffic, and no argument in the world is going to convince me that's good for your health.


The aggravation and danger factors are not affected by (a) if the left-turning cyclist operates vehicularly, meaning negotiating and obtain ROW from those affected prior to merging in front of them.

Again, the cyclist trying to "negotiate" with 70 MPH traffic doesn't bring much to the table. He can roll around fuming about his "rights" while waving his hand at motorists, or he can throw himself in front of oncoming traffic and hope someone's got good reflexes, or he can just deal with physical reality and either wait for a break or go press the button. (On the freeway.:rolleyes: )


The aggravation and danger factors are not affected by (b) because part of the technique is to move aside well before they reach you (but after they are very unlikely to still be oblivious about your presence). This is why a mirror is required to use this technique.
Look, mate: there's one serious fly in the ointment here, and that's the 50 MPH speed differential. It makes hardly more sense for a cyclist to be riding in the middle of 70 MPH traffic than it does for the pedestrian to be walking in the middle of 50 MPH traffic. Yeah, they're both attention grabbers, but not in a good way. If you really want to ride in the middle of the road when any traffic is a long way away, that's cool, though I think you're kidding yourself if you think that "technique" makes you safer. But even the slightest hint that weaving in and out of traffic on what amounts to a freeway is a good idea? No thanks.

I think it'd be just peachy-keen if bicycles were vehicles just like cars and could operate with the same reality. But they aren't, and no amount of wishful thinking and tapping away at the keyboard is going to change that.

There's a 40 MPH and 3000 pound difference, and that's just the way it is.

Fair enough. This is not riding around in the middle of the road, however. It is crossing the road to get to a left turn lane. Moreover, on a "freeway" road you may find yourself "negotiating" with 70 MPH traffic. This is generally such a one-sided affair that it is often not worth the trouble and danger. I'm sure it chafes a certain kind of "I have rights!!!" cyclist, but sometimes just pressing the signal button and crossing in the crosswalk is the best option.
Few cyclists know how to merge left one lane at a time in fast/busy traffic using negotiation. It's probably the most advanced VC skill. Most cyclists think they need to be either off to the right, or in the left turn lane, or moving from one to the other in one cross-multi-lane move. The idea of traveling in each of the in-between lanes, one at a time, while negotiating for, and waiting to obtain, ROW in the next lane to the left, wouldn't even occur to them.


One thing that I nearly overlooked, though -- and a thing that demonstrates that one needs to visualize the situations before writing about them -- the reason it's "freewayified" is that there aren't any intersections. So where is our boy making a left turn?
By "freewayified" I mean the look and feel between intersections is like a freeway, and so are the expectations. Eventually, there is an intersection, and the cyclist may need to turn left there.



And again, we're talking about a young freeway. There are generally not going to be signifigant gaps. "Defaulting center" on these roads would mean continually veering in and out of traffic, and no argument in the world is going to convince me that's good for your health.
Again, if there are no significantly long gaps, then you stay to the right of faster traffic. That's basic to using the technique.



Again, the cyclist trying to "negotiate" with 70 MPH traffic doesn't bring much to the table. He can roll around fuming about his "rights" while waving his hand at motorists, or he can throw himself in front of oncoming traffic and hope someone's got good reflexes, or he can just deal with physical reality and either wait for a break or go press the button. (On the freeway.)
I don't know of any road with traffic signals where merging left with negotiation in fast/busy traffic by a skilled and experienced cyclist is unsafe or problematic in any way.



Look, mate: there's one serious fly in the ointment here, and that's the 50 MPH speed differential. It makes hardly more sense for a cyclist to be riding in the middle of 70 MPH traffic than it does for the pedestrian to be walking in the middle of 50 MPH traffic. Yeah, they're both attention grabbers, but not in a good way. If you really want to ride in the middle of the road when any traffic is a long way away, that's cool, though I think you're kidding yourself if you think that "technique" makes you safer. But even the slightest hint that weaving in and out of traffic on what amounts to a freeway is a good idea? No thanks.

I think it'd be just peachy-keen if bicycles were vehicles just like cars and could operate with the same reality. But they aren't, and no amount of wishful thinking and tapping away at the keyboard is going to change that.

There's a 40 MPH and 3000 pound difference, and that's just the way it is.
The speed differential can be reduced to 0 mph through negotiation; that's what negotiation is all about.

That's very different from your original statement: " Worrying about one without the other is a complete waste of time."

Why worry about what drivers are doing if it's true that a cyclist can avoid just about anything? How is it a waste of time to worry only about your own behavior when that's enough to "avoid just about anything"?

We've had this conversation before, but the bottom line is that if two people are both trying to avoid an accident, there is a far greater chance that accident will be avoided.

The best cyclist watching out for themselves is still going to make mistakes... is still going to slip up from time to time, and therefore if everyone is doing their best, the overlap of responsiblities tends to take care of the minor mistakes that any of us, cyclists and motorists alike, will make from time to time. But that means that we ALL have to work to avoid collision situations... no one gets a free ride to "download ringtones" or such other diversions.

But don't the "industrial campuses" have midblock entrances/exits? Those junctions are places where right turns are authorized, particularly when they are busy with in/out traffic at commute times.

Very very long blocks... it is quite different from most of San Diego... Look around the Irvine Ranch area to get a good view.

The industrial campuses tend to have driveway entrances that serve several companies... so rather than a Miramar road of a driveway every 50 feet, you end up with long boulevards with an intersection leading to a parking area serving many companies, with long separations between driveways... over 1/2 a mile is not uncommon. The areas are not conducive to walking due to the distances involved. Sidewalks do not tend to line the long boulevards for that reason... but do tend to surround the campus parking lots.

Try to imagine a rural setting with industrial campuses where a farm house would be and a wide boulevard where the narrow farm road might be, connecting the campuses... those are the types of distances involved.

Few cyclists know how to merge left one lane at a time in fast/busy traffic using negotiation. It's probably the most advanced VC skill.
Insert eyeroll icon here.



Most cyclists think they need to be either off to the right, or in the left turn lane, or moving from one to the other in one cross-multi-lane move. The idea of traveling in each of the in-between lanes, one at a time, while negotiating for, and waiting to obtain, ROW in the next lane to the left, wouldn't even occur to them...The speed differential can be reduced to 0 mph through negotiation; that's what negotiation is all about.


Well, I'm open to information about how this occurs, but I have to admit, the scenario I'm picturing is pretty much along the lines of an idiot on a bicycle creating a traffic jam.

^^:lol:^^ or lying dead under a car.... that'll reduce it to 0mph

Assuming he stops, anyway. Eesh.

Again, if there are no significantly long gaps, then you stay to the right of faster traffic. That's basic to using the technique.
And again, that's one of the basic points I'm trying to make. I live and ride in an area where steady high speed traffic is the norm. So my first reaction to the suggestion that spending a lot of time in the middle of the road is going to make me safer is, frankly, laughter. In my area, riding in the middle of the road is usually a bad idea.

Then comes the caveat that, yeah, when there's steady high speed traffic, maybe I should stay to the right. So the "technique" for riding in my area is to, in general, stay in the bike lane.

Eureka.

And again, that's one of the basic points I'm trying to make. I live and ride in an area where steady high speed traffic is the norm. So my first reaction to the suggestion that spending a lot of time in the middle of the road is going to make me safer is, frankly, laughter. In my area, riding in the middle of the road is usually a bad idea.

Then comes the caveat that, yeah, when there's steady high speed traffic, maybe I should stay to the right. So the "technique" for riding in my area is to, in general, stay in the bike lane.

Eureka.
Indeed.

Well, I'm open to information about how this occurs, but I have to admit, the scenario I'm picturing is pretty much along the lines of an idiot on a bicycle creating a traffic jam.
Well, I wouldn't do it on 70 mph the first time. Like anything else, it takes practice to get accustomed to it, so you should definitely start on slower roads, and move up as your comfort level increases.

It doesn't create a traffic jam, but it does cause some momentary delay, and you have to be okay with doing that.

But the basic idea is:

How to get into a left turn lane across multiple lanes of fast/busy traffic.

Where you start this process, how far back from the intersection where you want to turn left, depends on the situation (number of lanes, amount and speed of traffic, length of left turn lane, gradient, your speed, etc.) and comes with experience. But most cyclists start way too late. When in doubt, start earlier.


From your current position, make sure it's clear ahead and look back for about a second by turning your head. It's important to not just glance back, but actually hold your look back. It's also important to make sure you know how to maintain your line while looking back prior to doing this in traffic (practice and test yourself on lines in an empty parking lot).
The look back in (1) is often enough for the driver of the 1st, 2nd or 3rd car to slow down to let you in. Yes, that may mean slowing from 70 to 15, but there it is. But remember, the context is often approaching a traffic signal (if your left is at a controlled intersection), so it's not unusual for traffic to be slowing and even stopping at that point (when the light up ahead is red). If you have no luck with just a look back, then use a left arm signal. Not a half-assed one that looks like you're pointing at something on the ground, but an assertive straight arm sticking straight out parallel to the ground, and look back again.
As soon as someone slows to let you in, move left into the lane in front of them, at least to the right tire track.
If you're not yet in the left only lane, and only moved as far as about the right tire track of the current lane, then you need to look back and merge left within the lane to the left tire track. Remember, at this point traffic behind you in your current lane is moving at your speed.

Repeat the above steps until you're in the left turn lane.

Again, this should be practiced on relatively slow 4 lane roads, then faster 4 lane roads, before moving up to fast/busy 6 and 8 lane arterials.

I'm having visions of the 80s arcade game "frogger".
remember that one?
only in this real life version, you could REALLY get smushed.

I'm having visions of the 80s arcade game "frogger".
remember that one?
only in this real life version, you could REALLY get smushed. Yes, it's easy to envision that way. How well it works and safe it is is difficult to envision, until you experience it for yourself. Again, it's important to start on easy roads in easy traffic, and move up.

In fact, I would start with an empty 4 lane road, and go through the steps, just to get accustomed to being "out there", one lane at a time, with no traffic on the road. Then try it with light traffic where some negotiation is required, etc.

The look back in (1) is often enough for the driver of the 1st, 2nd or 3rd car to slow down to let you in. Yes, that may mean slowing from 70 to 15, but there it is. But remember, the context is often approaching a traffic signal (if your left is at a controlled intersection), so it's not unusual for traffic to be slowing and even stopping at that point (when the light up ahead is red). If you have no luck with just a look back, then use a left arm signal. Not a half-assed one that looks like you're pointing at something on the ground, but an assertive straight arm sticking straight out parallel to the ground, and look back again.
This is where you lose me. On the roads I have in mind, folks just aren't going to slow down from 70 to 15 because a bicyclist has his arm out. I -- along with most roadies I've known -- will do this on certain roads, where experience and judgement tell us that it is appropriate. But on the 70 MPH "freeway" roads, no chance.

Which again brings me to the point that are no universally applicable "techniques".

Sorry ...but on a 70 MPH road...I'll wait my turn.

This is where you lose me. On the roads I have in mind, folks just aren't going to slow down from 70 to 15 because a bicyclist has his arm out. I -- along with most roadies I've known -- will do this on certain roads, where experience and judgement tell us that it is appropriate. But on the 70 MPH "freeway" roads, no chance.

Which again brings me to the point that are no universally applicable "techniques".
First, how do you know "folks just aren't going to slow down from 70 to 15 because a bicyclist has his arm out"? Have you tried it? If not, how do you know? I agree if no one slows down for you the technique is not possible. So we agree that's a key element.

Perhaps you can identify an intersection at which you would not attempt to make a left turn by negotiating with thru traffic one lane at a time, and we can ask someone like LCI_Brian to try it out, ideally with his helmet cam.

I should add that this is not a Forester technique, which is why I call it "Advanced VC". in EC, Forester writes about using existing gaps, and how once the speed differentials are of a certain magnitude merging is no longer practical. But I've found this technique of creating gaps to work for me, and so have other LCIs I've corresponded with.

This is where you lose me. On the roads I have in mind, folks just aren't going to slow down from 70 to 15 because a bicyclist has his arm out. I -- along with most roadies I've known -- will do this on certain roads, where experience and judgement tell us that it is appropriate. But on the 70 MPH "freeway" roads, no chance.

Which again brings me to the point that are no universally applicable "techniques".

Of course, just sticking your arm out rarely is going to get the attention of motorists enough to cause them to slow down. A lookback and a move closer to the left of the lane is often required in addition to a hand signal in my experience.

Of course, just sticking your arm out rarely is going to get the attention of motorists enough to cause them to slow down. A lookback and a move closer to the left of the lane is often required in addition to a hand signal in my experience.
Good points. All of them.

A left turn signal from the middle of a bike lane seems to be much less effective than issuing the same signal from the left edge of a bike lane.

I find a look back alone (no hand signal) to be more effective than a hand signal alone (no look back), but nothing gets motorists to yield faster than a look back combined with a hand signal.

By the way, this is true in a car too! On a freeway, using turn signals to get someone passing you in the adjacent lane to yield is a 50/50 proposition, at best. But if you stick your head out an open window and look back, it's much more effective. I've noticed drivers in convertibles seeming to get better treatment too, and I surmise this is because their head turning is so conspicuous (hard to ignore).

First, how do you know "folks just aren't going to slow down from 70 to 15 because a bicyclist has his arm out"? Have you tried it?

They often can't see the brake lights/turn signals of cars as big as they are and plow right into them...get freakin real for a change. :rolleyes:

First, how do you know "folks just aren't going to slow down from 70 to 15 because a bicyclist has his arm out"? Have you tried it?

They often can't see the brake lights/turn signals of cars as big as they are and plow right into them...get freakin real for a change. :rolleyes:
What does that have to do with anything?
You only need one driver per lane to notice the signalling and slow down for you (and those behind him to slow down for him) before you merge left.

What does that have to do with anything?
You only need one driver per lane to notice the signalling and slow down for you (and those behind him to slow down for him) before you merge left.

Tell that to the people who get rear ended on the highways daily. You got it backwards...all it takes is one who doesn't see you...end of experiment, you are now having a very bad day. I swear your wacky theories are gonna get some poor unsuspecting schlep killed someday...and of course you'll blame him and his lack of reading comprehension.

First, how do you know "folks just aren't going to slow down from 70 to 15 because a bicyclist has his arm out"? Have you tried it? If not, how do you know?

It's called common sense.

It's called common sense.
I agree it's common sense.

Common sense is not always correct. In this case, empirical evidence, by those who have actually tried it, suggests common sense got it wrong.

Tell that to the people who get rear ended on the highways daily. You got it backwards...all it takes is one who doesn't see you...end of experiment, you are now having a very bad day. I swear your wacky theories are gonna get some poor unsuspecting schlep killed someday...and of course you'll blame him and his lack of reading comprehension.
Huh? When would you be in front of someone who doesn't see you?
The whole point is to move left only after they've yielded.

First, how do you know "folks just aren't going to slow down from 70 to 15 because a bicyclist has his arm out"? Have you tried it? If not, how do you know? I agree if no one slows down for you the technique is not possible. So we agree that's a key element.



I know other folks have already given their two cents on this... and some of these debates can be pretty silly...

But I know this does in fact work... I use a Freeway in my commute, and in order for me to go in the direction I need to go, I have to hit the offramp and make a left turn across the ramp at the top... of a hill. I typically move at about 8-10MPH on the ramp... and where I need to start my crossing of the ramp, the motor traffic is leaving the freeway at 65-70MPH and I need to cross right in front of them. (this is NOT my favorite part of the ride).

I simply stick my arm out. :eek:

I have never had to wait more than 2 cars to get one to slow down to 8-10MPH to "cover" for me as I go from the shoulder (of the freeway) onto the ramp and cross from right to left as I ascend to the top.

I don't do this lightly... and I never attempt to do it unless I get a "blocking car" to cover me as I do this. But simply all I do is stick my arm out and wait... while I continute to ride slowly on the Freeway shoulder at the merge of the ramp.

Yeah, it works... but I sure wouldn't bet I could do it all the way across 6 lanes with 70MPH traffic. :rolleyes:

I know other folks have already given their two cents on this... and some of these debates can be pretty silly...

But I know this does in fact work... I use a Freeway in my commute, and in order for me to go in the direction I need to go, I have to hit the offramp and make a left turn across the ramp at the top... of a hill. I typically move at about 8-10MPH on the ramp... and where I need to start my crossing of the ramp, the motor traffic is leaving the freeway at 65-70MPH and I need to cross right in front of them. (this is NOT my favorite part of the ride).

I simply stick my arm out. :eek:

I have never had to wait more than 2 cars to get one to slow down to 8-10MPH to "cover" for me as I go from the shoulder (of the freeway) onto the ramp and cross from right to left as I ascend to the top.

I don't do this lightly... and I never attempt to do it unless I get a "blocking car" to cover me as I do this. But simply all I do is stick my arm out and wait... while I continute to ride slowly on the Freeway shoulder at the merge of the ramp.

Yeah, it works... but I sure wouldn't bet I could do it all the way across 6 lanes with 70MPH traffic. :rolleyes:
First, it's only 3 lanes of traffic (a 6 lane arterial is 3 through lanes each way), not 6.
Second, you're not betting on anything since you only merge left in front of someone after they've slowed and yielded for you.

gotta go

Huh? When would you be in front of someone who doesn't see you?
The whole point is to move left only after they've yielded.

Then you're gonna be waiting a long time...ain't nobody on any 65mph 4 lane with any appreciable traffic gonna yield to a cyclist puttering along on the shoulder with his arm out looking back with a steely eyed stare.

Hint, Einstein - slowing from 70 to 15 in traffic causes accidents...which would be caused by you and the idiot who is dumb enough to brake for you. You wanna move to the left lane on a 55mph+ 4 lane? You watch the gaps in both lanes and move when you know you can spend minimal time in each of the main traffic lanes. You sit there in one lane for too long, you're gonna be toast. Signalling is futile...if they are close enough to see you, you don't have enough of a gap unless the slow rapidly, endangering themselves and others.

As usual, your wacky theories indicate you are speaking from the la-la land in your head, not from any actual experience dealing with fast, multi-lane traffic.

First, it's only 3 lanes of traffic (a 6 lane arterial is 3 through lanes each way), not 6.
Second, you're not betting on anything since you only merge left in front of someone after they've slowed and yielded for you.

gotta go


First I don't care how many lanes of traffic... I used "6" only as an example. (I only cross one lane, period)

Second... be my guest... I'll take pictures and post them here as you cross any 3 lanes on any fast moving freeway with regular traffic, while you are riding your bike. Have to do it near a bridge however... so I can get good shots.

First I don't care how many lanes of traffic... I used "6" only as an example. (I only cross one lane, period)

Second... be my guest... I'll take pictures and post them here as you cross any 3 lanes on any fast moving freeway with regular traffic, while you are riding your bike. Have to do it near a bridge however... so I can get good shots.
Nobody is talking about crossing a freeway. Not only is that illegal, but unless there is a rare leftside offramp, there is no point even in theory. We're talkinga bout merging left across multiple lanes near the end of a freeway-like section of a busy/fast arterial as we're approaching an intersection with a traffic signal and a left turn only lane.

i thought this thread was about Baltimore and its higher degree of bike accidents despite it's 'great' vc road design. Baltimore, versus cities with bike infrastructure providing better road position, more riders, and a reduction in the indexed crash rate when bike infrastructure is added to cities.


only later did this thread devolve into yet another helemet head obfuscation soapbox about lane position.

only later did this thread devolve into yet another helemet head obfuscation soapbox about lane position.
Yah, we really need a DLLP sub forum for HH.