Framebuilders - What's the diff?

Hello all,
I was wondering about steel frames. Lets say we are talking about the same kind of steel tubing, lugs and whatever else goes on. Now, weather its welded in China, Antartica, Italy, The USA, or in my back yard, what is the difference? Other than the possibility of nice hand welded puddles compared to some robot welds I can't see how it matters, it's a bunch of steel tubes welded together. C'mon, jump in with your opinions.

Are u talking about same type of bikes? I mean... u cant compare a nice colnago master 1984 with a fuji america steel made the same year... totally different types of bikes, a colnago master is a top of the line racing bike and a Fuji america steel is a crap that people was able to get in wallmart (making this up) that is a commuting bike... and as a commuting bike the geometry sucks, component sucks... the bike last forever but u cant compared it to the colnago because are different bikes, u got the idea? if i look at it the same way that u do it makes sense but there are too many factors that you need to think also like for example "are u talking about the same kind of bike?"... are u talking about brazing vs TIG/MIG? Are u talking about old or new bikes? ... just in case all is made in asia now a days...

:)

In the second sentence you talk about lugs, then you talk about welds and puddles and robots. Which is it?

There is a HUGE difference between a lugged steel frame handbuilt in a small shop by an experienced frame builder and an assembly line production bike with the same geometry, same tube set, same lugs, same BB shell, etc. The hand made bike will usually be built to much closer tolerences, the tubing miters will be much more precise, and the brazing will be clean and without voids.

Is the difference in quality worth the difference in price? To some it is, to others it isn't.

Just buy one from WallyWorld if you see no difference . . .

OK guys, I know alot about various metals, as I work as a machinist, and make things out of it all day, everyday. What I know about bike frames could not fill a paragraph. I was just looking for some knowledge here, some education if you will. Not snippy attitudes. Scooper, your response makes sense. More attention to detail can make a huge difference, Thanks.
Lugged frames are not welded? Tell me how are the tubes attatched to the lugs? I do not know. I know the wallyworld bikes are crap. I was talking about road bikes, with identical components, identical frame tubing and geometry. Sure a bunch of 10 year old Chinese production workers might be a little sloppy with their work. But if it's cut right and welded by a competent welder with appropriete jigs or fixtures it's the same no matter where it was done, you can't argue with that. I will agree that the Italian bikes are nice. And if you can afford to, buy one. (A $300,000 Ferrarri still gets beat at the track by a $80,000 Chevrolet.) ultraman6970, zonatandum, I'll wait at the top for you with my "Chevy"(I am joking here)

Short answer...all things being equal the tubes don't care who joins them. Said another way, a Colnago will ride the same as a China built frame if using the same tubes, geometry, etc. In fact, some Colnago's ARE made in Asia - Taiwan I think.

FYI, steel frames joined with lugs are BRAZED, not welded. As a machinist I trust you understand the difference. :)

Lugged frames are not welded? Tell me how are the tubes attatched to the lugs? I do not know.
As Nessism says, lugged steel bikes are brazed, often with a brazing alloy that's from 45% to 56% silver because of the advantages of using lower brazing temperatures on many of the steels commonly used for bicycle frame tubing.

Obtaining a clean, void free joint with lugs is not something a robot or unskilled brazer can do.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/k4drd/Bicycles/Waterford%20B07014/HeadTop.jpg

Thank you guys. Yes nessism I do know the difference. Great pic Scooper.

As Nessism says, lugged steel bikes are brazed, often with a brazing alloy that's from 45% to 56% silver because of the advantages of using lower brazing temperatures on many of the steels commonly used for bicycle frame tubing.

FYI, there is no real advantage of using silver brazing alloys over brass other than marginally easier repairability. Reynolds 753 was the only alloy that really needed silver...and those tubesets are not produced anymore. Brass brazing temperatures, while higher than silver, don't take enough temper out of the tubes to matter. That said, most investment cast lug sets these days fit quite closely on the tubes, and since they fit so tight, the clearance is most suitable for silver since the gap requirements are tighter. Not sure what this adds to the discussion but I felt like sharing. :)

Thanks, Nessism. I knew about the special certification requirements Reynolds had for 753, and I guess I've read too much into some of the stuff I've been reading. I have no experience framebuilding, but the impression I've gotten is that brass is normally used for lugless fillet brazing, and that silver flows better in between the tubes and lugs when using lugged construction, minimizing voids. My lastest frame is lugged Reynolds 953, and the Reynolds 953 FAQ says:

FRAME BUILD OPTIONS

Can be TIG welded with AWS ER630 wire or silver brazed using recommended filler wires. NB Silver brazing trials indicate this is workable, but allow for corrosion protection on the braze area. Silver brazing into lugs will also work. Brass brazing materials with melting points around 800-900 ºC have worked although if held at temperature for over five mins, will effectively anneals (sic) the 953 tubing down to strengths typical of heat-treated Cr-mo. Allow for corrosion protection in the brazing zone. Builders have indicated to us that the brass flows better when a special stainless steel flux is used. (typical examples suggested are SIF "tool tipping & brazing stainless flux" and Castolin "Castolin 181", EN1045 FH10OR DIN8511 F-SH 1 standard).

The idea of this thread, that how the tubes are joined is what matters, seems off base to me. Yes robots can tig weld very well. In some case they weld better than a person with limited skills.

I would contend that the joining of the tubes is just one small part of the equation. The tubes chosen, the geometry, the fit, the accuracy of the miters, the alignment are all as or even more important than how the tubes are stuck together.

Put another way..........a good welder/brazer isn't a framebuilder but a framebuilder is always a good welder/brazer.

One other tidbit to think of. When building a frame only a small percentage of the time is spent welding/brazing. A tig frame may take 8 hours to build and a lugged about twice that. In either case the joining of the tubes takes less than 10% of that total time. The rest of the time is spent doing stuff that is every bit as important (maybe more so) to the end outcome of the build.

I hope that makes sense.

Dave

I hope that makes sense.

Dave
It does. Thanks for an enlightening post, Dave.

Yep, I'd say the comparison between welding approaches (robot tig, lugs, fillet brazed, etc.) does not address the true difference between a small shop builder and a mass production crew in China - it's all about the fit and alignment of the bike to fit the needs of the rider. The small shop builder may not have the super accuracy robot tig weld, but his frames are perfectly aligned with its intended components that the whole is definitely greater than the sum of its parts. So if you were just looking at the welds you may even say that the tig weld is superior, but does that equate to a superior ride? Irrelevant. The weld just holds the frame together, and over a certain tolerance, it doesn't matter anymore. So the Giant frame may have better welds than a Richard Sachs frame, but people buy the Sachs frame for its "telepathic" ride not for an improved weld.

But if you're comparing tig welding automatons between the U.S., China and Italy? Yep, probably all the same, and if anything, the Taiwanese probably have the most sophisticated high tech welding facilities in the world for bikes.