My daughter, Emily, is a student at ASU, and she got a ticket in Tempe for riding on the sidewalk. It cost her $180, with court costs. This is about the same rate for most motor vehicle violations in that city.
Emily rode the sidewalk because there was construction on the opposite side of the road. She tried to contest the ticket, but the officer wasn't in the courtroom. Being a student, she doesn't have a lot of spare time on her hands, so she just paid it.
I wrote a letter to City Council. I did get a response, telling me I'd hear from the Sheriff's Dept. About nine months later, I finally heard from the judge (after writing the City Council person a second and third time), who looked up all the records, and said that my daughter missed her first court date. My daughter knows nothing about it. The judge also said that the fees are slightly less than motor vehicle violations. Hmmm.
Moral of the story - you can't fight City Hall.
rando
05-29-07, 05:20 PM
that's pretty wierd. I thought it was legal to ride the sidewalks here!
randya
05-29-07, 05:24 PM
If you show up to contest your ticket in court and the officer fails to appear, the ticket is normally dismissed. If you miss your court date, the opposite is normally true. It doesn't sound like your daughter is telling you the whole story.
zeytoun
05-29-07, 05:27 PM
that's pretty wierd. I thought it was legal to ride the sidewalks here!
Generally it is, with a few restrictions.
Here is Tempe local ordinances on sidewalk bicycling.
Sec. 7-52. Riding on sidewalks or bicycle lanes.
(a) The city traffic engineer is authorized to erect or place signs on any sidewalk or roadway, prohibiting the riding of bicycle thereon by any person; and when such signs are in place no person shall disobey same.
(b) Whenever any person is riding a bicycle upon a sidewalk, such person shall yield the right-of-way to any pedestrian and should give audible signal before overtaking and passing such pedestrian.
(c) No person shall ride or operate a bicycle in any direction except that permitted by vehicular traffic on the same side of the roadway where the sidewalk or bicycle lane exists; provided, that bicycles may proceed either way where signs or pavement markings on the sidewalk, bikeway or bicycle lane appear designating two-way traffic.
(d) Any person riding a bicycle on a bikeway, sidewalk or bicycle path that is about to enter or cross a roadway shall yield the right-of-way to all traffic on such roadway. (Ord. No. 87.24, 1-14-88)
noisebeam
05-29-07, 05:42 PM
Tempe police regulary do crack downs on 'illegal cycling' in the university area. There are usually blurbs about it starting in the local paper and in the student paper. These enforcement waves are done in parallel with enforcement increase for motorist violations, targeting speeding and red light running at the most dangerous intersections for cyclists.
Main focus for cyclists is on wrong way riding (including wrong way on sidewalk which as noted above is illegal in Tempe) and failure to stop at lights.
I understand that the first offense one can take a cycling safety class to reduce fine.
Spend an hour riding in Tempe in the ASU areas and one will understand why this is done.
edit: Here is a thread about the last crack down in April:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=4132616#post4132616
Al
oilfreeandhappy
05-29-07, 09:59 PM
If you show up to contest your ticket in court and the officer fails to appear, the ticket is normally dismissed. If you miss your court date, the opposite is normally true. It doesn't sound like your daughter is telling you the whole story.
You could certainly be correct on this count. Her stories always make her out to be the Immaculate Angel. I have 2 major problems with this whole ordeal. First, the amount of the fine is exhorbitant. It's ridiculous to fine a student on a bicycle this kind of money. They're not going to kill anybody on a bicycle. Secondly, and I don't feel as strongly about this one, where's the warning? They talk about encouraging cycling for students, and discouraging car ownership, but then they respond like this.
seeker333
05-29-07, 10:25 PM
I agree, 180 is a ridiculous fine. Should be 50 bucks tops, lesson learned.
noisebeam
05-30-07, 08:17 AM
I agree, 180 is a ridiculous fine. Should be 50 bucks tops, lesson learned.
It is $51 with a lesson learned:
http://www.tempe.gov/court/bdc.htm
Al
oilfreeandhappy
05-30-07, 08:39 AM
It is $51 with a lesson learned:
http://www.tempe.gov/court/bdc.htm
Al
That document is dated 5/29/07. This ticket was from last Fall, and the fine has already been paid. Nobody said anything to my daughter about this, so it must be a new policy. Maybe it was implemented, at least in part, due to all my bickering and letters. If this is the case, then it was money well spent. I feel better!
noisebeam
05-30-07, 08:41 AM
That document is dated 5/29/07. This ticket was from last Fall, and the fine has already been paid. Nobody said anything to my daughter about this, so it must be a new policy. Maybe it was implemented, at least in part, due to all my bickering and letters. If this is the case, then it was money well spent. I feel better!
Actually it is dated 2/1/06 (see bottom left), and that may only be the rev. date for the web page.
The date on top is an automatic timestamp of current date/time.
I am aware this policy has been in place for quite a while. It is mentioned on the ASU web site about bicycle requirements/safety, etc.
Al
oilfreeandhappy
05-30-07, 08:55 AM
Darn, thought I accomplished something. Nonetheless, she wasn't told about it, so it may be one of those documents that makes me people feel good, but is unknown among the officials. It was not brought up in the letter by the judge or the councilwoman.
zeytoun
05-30-07, 09:23 AM
Sorry, but riding on the sidewalk endangers pedestrians. Would your daughter ride by my grandmother, or dismount to pass her? My grandmother would not hear a verbal warning and a fall, from a minor touch or even being startled by a bike passing from behind, would probably kill her. I have no sympathy for people who endanger others for their own convenience or out of fear for their own safety.
How often do you imagine things like this happen?
No offense, but while a cyclist is rightly obligated to yield to a pedestrian and announce their presence, they are not obligated to avoid "startling" a person who is oblivious to their surroundings.
noisebeam
05-30-07, 09:30 AM
If you want or care, PM me with the location and date/time of the 'offense' I can try to estimate if it was reasonable (that is there were other legal ways to travel even for someone not comfortable riding in the street and if ped use of sidewalk is heavy or not at this time) or if this was overszealous enforcement.
Al
rando
05-30-07, 09:35 AM
Sorry, but riding on the sidewalk endangers pedestrians. Would your daughter ride by my grandmother, or dismount to pass her? My grandmother would not hear a verbal warning and a fall, from a minor touch or even being startled by a bike passing from behind, would probably kill her. I have no sympathy for people who endanger others for their own convenience or out of fear for their own safety.
You might help her learn to accept responsibilty for her own actions rather than complaining about a minor penalty.
Rajit
:cry: :roflmao:
jesus, rajit, get a grip. it's legal to ride on them here. nobody's endangering anybody.
randya
05-30-07, 12:31 PM
First, the amount of the fine is exhorbitant. It's ridiculous to fine a student on a bicycle this kind of money. They're not going to kill anybody on a bicycle. Secondly, and I don't feel as strongly about this one, where's the warning? They talk about encouraging cycling for students, and discouraging car ownership, but then they respond like this.
No argument from me here. This is very similar to the recent Portland police stings on bicycle commuters running stop signs on traffic-calmed neighborhood streets with almost no other traffic present. Those tickets cost $242.00. warnings/ education/ lower fines for cyclists based on the risk of incurred liability in the event of a violation would make a whole lot more sense to me.
I-Like-To-Bike
05-30-07, 12:53 PM
Sorry, but riding on the sidewalk endangers pedestrians. Would your daughter ride by my grandmother, or dismount to pass her? My grandmother would not hear a verbal warning and a fall, from a minor touch or even being startled by a bike passing from behind, would probably kill her.
How often do you imagine things like this happen?
No offense, but while a cyclist is rightly obligated to yield to a pedestrian and announce their presence, they are not obligated to avoid "startling" a person who is oblivious to their surroundings.
Sounds like the irresponsible person is the one who lets super sensitive/fragile granny wander about out of her wheelchair, ready to fall and get killed by any sudden noise or movement anywhere in her vicinity.
Camilo
05-30-07, 01:10 PM
You could certainly be correct on this count. Her stories always make her out to be the Immaculate Angel. ...
I'm lucky, I have two Immaculate Angels! Always right, and never wrong, just like their mother. (problem being, this is true more often than not :cry:
...I have 2 major problems with this whole ordeal. First, the amount of the fine is exhorbitant. It's ridiculous to fine a student on a bicycle this kind of money. They're not going to kill anybody on a bicycle. Secondly, and I don't feel as strongly about this one, where's the warning? They talk about encouraging cycling for students, and discouraging car ownership, but then they respond like this.
Even assuming we don't know the "rest of the story", I agree with you on these two points. Even my Immaculate Angels, if they mess up and get called on it, generally understand, learn and follow the rules from that point forward. $180 for a bicycle infraction, a fairly minor one at that, seems absurd. If they ran a stop sign and hit a car or pedestrian, throw the book at them. But sidewalk riding?
zeytoun
05-30-07, 05:59 PM
Zeytoun, I can take no offense from the words of people who, due to their lack of reading comprehension and my not knowing anything else about them, I have no respect for. But thank you.
You're welcome.
My grandpa has polio. If you ever rev your engine when you pass him on the road, while he is walking on the sidewalk, he will poop his pants. I expect you to buy me new pants.
BTW, does your grandma live in Tempe, AZ?
I-Like-To-Bike
05-30-07, 06:44 PM
I-like-to-bike, you have no experience with the elderly, or your remark is dishonest/flippant.
I'm probably closer to your grandma's age than you are to getting a clue. The world doesn't revolve around your feverish nightmares of cycling demons harming your Granny.
No one said the OP's daughter buzzed anybody, Jack. Your Granny was unmolested by the cycling whipper snappers, and no other Grannys were harmed/threatened in this episode.
Just a ticket handed out by a zealous LEO for a victim less and harmless traffic violation.
rando
05-30-07, 07:37 PM
Seems I've brought out the me-firsters here.
I don't make decisions for my grandmother, but she has a right to the sidewalk. Passing her on a bike is unsafe. If you don't get that then you are immature or self-centered. The fact that you are on a bike doesn't make you right, even on these forums.
Zeytoun, I can take no offense from the words of people who, due to their lack of reading comprehension and my not knowing anything else about them, I have no respect for. But thank you.
I-like-to-bike, you have no experience with the elderly, or your remark is dishonest/flippant.
Rando, if it is legal in that situation, then why was the ticket issued? What does "get a grip" mean in your post? "Cut the OP some slack," maybe? The slack costs $180. I think it should be more.
Rajit
ooh, another reading comprehension professional! Glad to meet you. your grammy is in no danger here in Tempe. "Get a grip" means you are pretty much a clueless idiot for posting what you posted, IMHO. btw, Bite me.
CB HI
05-30-07, 07:47 PM
It is $51 with a lesson learned:
http://www.tempe.gov/court/bdc.htm
Al
BICYCLE DIVERSION CLASS ...
"Failure to complete the bicycle diversion class AT LEAST THREE DAYS PRIOR to your court date may result in additional monetary penalties being imposed, and possible drivers license suspension."
So if they suspend your drivers license, I guess you have to ride a bike.:eek:
randya
05-30-07, 10:55 PM
This is does not logically follow from what I wrote. Please reread my original post for clarity. Good luck! We're rooting for you!
DUI is also a "victimless and harmless traffic violation" in the vast majority of cases.
Are you beginning to get it? My post, I mean. Didn't want to scare you with "life" or "responsibility to others" or anything big like that.
not worth it, dude
Lt.Gustl
05-30-07, 11:22 PM
Need to be going same way as traffic in Tempe, but there is alot of construction about, because of the light rail and so forth. Also traffic lights can be pretty sparse so I don't know what they'd do about someone having to go a few yards so they can cross, all other Phoenix cities allow wrong way cycling on sidewalks. I think there was actualy some kind of action to get it through. Near ASU there are a few decent bike lanes but also some intersections that are not so great. Also where the light rail is being constructed the roads are all torn up and quite narrow at times.
Given the choice I'll take the road but around here it's pretty crazy, also when it's 106 degrees in the shade you don't see anyone walking on the sidewalks. in fact you don't see anyone walking on the sidewalks if at all. I've tried walking around and it's pretty damn pedestrian unfriendly here. the walk lights are on just long enough to cross 6 lanes of traffic on the bike. and crosswalks can be 1-2 miles apart. It's ridiculous.
ASU also just jacked up parking costs2X what it was so you can expect a few more cyclists from that. I think that Tempe is the only city with the wrong way ban and "illegal cycling enforcement crackdowns" because of ASU and the "deep pockets" of the students and their parents I think it's a conspiracy!!!!
randya
05-30-07, 11:29 PM
Need to be going same way as traffic in Tempe, but there is alot of construction about, because of the light rail and so forth. Also traffic lights can be pretty sparse so I don't know what they'd do about someone having to go a few yards so they can cross, all other Phoenix cities allow wrong way cycling on sidewalks. I think there was actualy some kind of action to get it through. Near ASU there are a few decent bike lanes but also some intersections that are not so great. Also where the light rail is being constructed the roads are all torn up and quite narrow at times.
Given the choice I'll take the road but around here it's pretty crazy, also when it's 106 degrees in the shade you don't see anyone walking on the sidewalks. in fact you don't see anyone walking on the sidewalks if at all. I've tried walking around and it's pretty damn pedestrian unfriendly here. the walk lights are on just long enough to cross 6 lanes of traffic on the bike. and crosswalks can be 1-2 miles apart. It's ridiculous.
ASU also just jacked up parking costs2X what it was so you can expect a few more cyclists from that. I think that Tempe is the only city with the wrong way ban and "illegal cycling enforcement crackdowns" because of ASU and the "deep pockets" of the students and their parents I think it's a conspiracy!!!!
still the whole issue of warnings and education vs. enforcement and tickets is relevant. can't the cops think outside of the box for a minute?
Lt.Gustl
05-31-07, 02:42 AM
can't the cops think outside of the box for a minute?
LOL, that's a good one, of all the police I've ran across maybe a third seems to be thinking at all. I doubt any Tempe police even know about the one way rule till they're given a quota to ticket a bunch of students for a two week period, also I bet ten bucks that it's all college kids they nab and not the transient or illegal alien population that ride bikes. I see a selective enforcement defense for sure. Also as for the Ur post, if construction blocked the sidewalk on the correct side of the street I'd see a legitamate reason for it, also as mentioned it can be quite a distance at times to get to an intersection where you can cross, so who knows.
As far as tickets being just as expensive for bikes as cars I don't see them having ten dollar tickets for blasting through a stop sign, or we can have it like in Finland where the price for your ticket is directly related to your income.
oilfreeandhappy
05-31-07, 07:25 AM
I think that Tempe is the only city with the wrong way ban and "illegal cycling enforcement crackdowns" because of ASU and the "deep pockets" of the students and their parents I think it's a conspiracy!!!!
As they say Down Under - "That's a good one, mate!". My daughter is there on a National Merit Scholarship, otherwise we could have never afforded to send her out of state. It's still very expensinve, even with the scholarship. We're proud as heck of her, and this isn't the first time we've forked out some cash for something unforeseen.
Thanks for mentioning about the construction. She did say that there was contruction on the other side of the road (the correct side to ride on). I didn't ask how extensive it was. I can just picture, wrecking balls and jackhammers with flying debris...
zeytoun
05-31-07, 07:41 AM
OK, let me explain my post to you. Riding on the sidewalk is dangerous for pedestrians, such as my grandmother. I understood your posts the first time through. You ignored my question. (How often do you imagine things like this happen?)
How many pedestrians are killed by sidewalk riding cyclists each year? You asserted that riding on the sidewalk is dangerous. Please back it up with something other then a strange imagined fantasy involving elderly people.
he OP's daughter got a ticket for riding on the sidewalk. He raised a big stink instead of helping her accept responsibility for her actions. What big stink did the OP raise? I didn't notice one.
Why are you in such a tizzy? I'm not.
That struck a nerve with you. Nope. I just thought found your OP to be rediculous.
My guess is because you are an irresponsible member of society. You can not see beyond yourself and your small piece of reality. If you can't respond with substance....
So, to sum up, Mr. Crabbykins, as I originally asked you, how many pedestrians are killed each year by cyclists passing on the sidewalk? Do you want to answer this, or respond with insults that you run by you 6-year-old daughter first (which is classy, I must say)?
noisebeam
05-31-07, 08:14 AM
Need to be going same way as traffic in Tempe, but there is alot of construction about, because of the light rail and so forth. Also traffic lights can be pretty sparse so I don't know what they'd do about someone having to go a few yards so they can cross, all other Phoenix cities allow wrong way cycling on sidewalks. I think there was actualy some kind of action to get it through. Near ASU there are a few decent bike lanes but also some intersections that are not so great. Also where the light rail is being constructed the roads are all torn up and quite narrow at times.
Given the choice I'll take the road but around here it's pretty crazy, also when it's 106 degrees in the shade you don't see anyone walking on the sidewalks. in fact you don't see anyone walking on the sidewalks if at all. I've tried walking around and it's pretty damn pedestrian unfriendly here. the walk lights are on just long enough to cross 6 lanes of traffic on the bike. and crosswalks can be 1-2 miles apart. It's ridiculous.
ASU also just jacked up parking costs2X what it was so you can expect a few more cyclists from that. I think that Tempe is the only city with the wrong way ban and "illegal cycling enforcement crackdowns" because of ASU and the "deep pockets" of the students and their parents I think it's a conspiracy!!!!
Some good points, but...
There are lots of pedestrians on some sidewalks in the ASU area. For example, would you ride down Mill Ave or University except perhaps at 5am? On most evenings or during the rush between classes it can even be hard to walk down without occasionally pausing for ped-congestions.
This ticket was in the Fall when it was likely cool out and school in session.
Light rail has chewed up Apache Blvd (and other streets) University/Mill had construction too recently. Yes it looks bad to cycle on, but I found with the 25mph restrictriction and because of many detours/curves driver actually go that slow - that cycling in the lane is actually easier and more comfortable than when it is otherwise normally 40mph and multilane.
Yes parts of Tempe can be ped unfriendly, but remember this is the ASU area with many more x-walks, lower speed limits, etc. (by the way there is nowhere in Tempe that a x-walk is 1mi let alone 2mi apart, 1/2mi at the longest)
I very much am glad for the appropriate enforcement of cycling laws in the ASU areas. All my close calls with other vehicles have been in the ASU area and have been with cyclists running lights or ridng the wrong way. Gotta keep ultra alert in the area if cycling thru, not for motorist, but for peds and cyclists.
Remember its not a $180 ticket. Its a $123 ticket, that if ignored goes to $176 after a period of time. Also one can take a bicycle diversion class for $51 total instead if one gets on it and doesn't ignore the ticket. The intent here is clearly to teach, not punish or make $ as part of a conspiracy.
Al
I-Like-To-Bike
05-31-07, 08:35 AM
This is does not logically follow from what I wrote. Please reread my original post for clarity. Good luck! We're rooting for you!
DUI is also a "victimless and harmless traffic violation" in the vast majority of cases.
Are you beginning to get it? My post, I mean. Didn't want to scare you with "life" or "responsibility to others" or anything big like that.
Just take responsibility for Granny and get her a helmet and a walker. Just in case another pedestrian approaches her on the sidewalk, or she (or you) steps on a crack, or a nearby car exhaust or loud radio causes her to keel over.
BTW, The Real Nanny™ DUI analogy don't wash, Jack:rolleyes: But your obsession with cracking the "responsibility" whip on the ruthless hoardes of cyclists does seem rather anal. Ya sure the six year old isn't posting to this thread under your name?
rando
05-31-07, 08:41 AM
I apologize for calling you an idiot, Rajit. That was wrong. I should have written "self-righteous busybody buttinski" instead.
Mr. Underbridge
05-31-07, 09:21 AM
How many pedestrians are killed by sidewalk riding cyclists each year? You asserted that riding on the sidewalk is dangerous. Please back it up with something other then a strange imagined fantasy involving elderly people.
I realize this is chiming in late, but my father had his wrist shattered when a guy flying on a bike hit him when he was walking on the sidewalk. Required a number of surgeries and never was right again. Not a death, no, but I think serious injuries probably count, too.
As far as the case goes, what we don't know is how fast the girl on the bike was traveling on the sidewalk. If she was doing 15mph+, she deserves the ticket. If she was coasting at 7 mph, she probably should have gotten a warning.
noisebeam
05-31-07, 09:41 AM
IAs far as the case goes, what we don't know is how fast the girl on the bike was traveling on the sidewalk. If she was doing 15mph+, she deserves the ticket. If she was coasting at 7 mph, she probably should have gotten a warning.
Also to help understand if over-zealous ticketing or not is which street and what time of day this occured.
Al
zeytoun
05-31-07, 10:06 AM
I realize this is chiming in late, but my father had his wrist shattered when a guy flying on a bike hit him when he was walking on the sidewalk. Required a number of surgeries and never was right again. Not a death, no, but I think serious injuries probably count, too.
And I certainly believe a cyclist should be held liable for situations like this. I'm sorry to hear about your father, and the a55hat who hit him.
My only reason for posting was someone raving about their grandma being killed by a hypothetical startle, and the resulting "responsibility".
There are lots of "if"s regarding the OPs daughter, and like you I cannot make assumptions regarding the applicability of your points to the OP. However, your points are valid, and I favor at least strong punishment for any bicyclist that violates the ROW of a pedestrian.
slowandsteady
05-31-07, 11:20 AM
If you show up to contest your ticket in court and the officer fails to appear, the ticket is normally dismissed. If you miss your court date, the opposite is normally true. It doesn't sound like your daughter is telling you the whole story.
Bingo.
Groundhawg
06-01-07, 02:18 AM
If you show up to contest your ticket in court and the officer fails to appear, the ticket is normally dismissed. If you miss your court date, the opposite is normally true. It doesn't sound like your daughter is telling you the whole story.
randya is correct on this. Laws do vary from state to state though. I know a guy that got a DUI. He hired a lawyer, and the lawyer kept getting the court date postponed. His goal was to wait until the officer went on vacation.
When the officer went on vacation. The guy and his lawyer went to court. The case was thrown out because the officer was a no show.
recursive
06-02-07, 06:48 PM
randya is correct on this. Laws do vary from state to state though. I know a guy that got a DUI. He hired a lawyer, and the lawyer kept getting the court date postponed. His goal was to wait until the officer went on vacation.
When the officer went on vacation. The guy and his lawyer went to court. The case was thrown out because the officer was a no show.
Good ol' justice system in action.
deputyjones
06-02-07, 11:16 PM
You could certainly be correct on this count. Her stories always make her out to be the Immaculate Angel. I have 2 major problems with this whole ordeal. First, the amount of the fine is exhorbitant. It's ridiculous to fine a student on a bicycle this kind of money. They're not going to kill anybody on a bicycle. Secondly, and I don't feel as strongly about this one, where's the warning? They talk about encouraging cycling for students, and discouraging car ownership, but then they respond like this.
So, your adult daughter was cited for breaking the law, lied to you about the details and now you are complaining on an internet forum because you can't fight for her the battle that she has already decided wasn't worth fighting?
slowandsteady
06-04-07, 10:35 AM
Okay, so this is so predictable it might as well be carved in stone. Girl clearly violates law and gets caught. Doesn't like to accept personal responsibility so blames the situation(construction) for getting her in trouble. When that doesn't work, she blames the laws for being too constricting. When that doesn't work, she complains that the punishment is too severe. When that doesn't work, she blames the cop for being too close minded. Did I miss anything?
rando
06-05-07, 10:28 AM
watch out for rajit's grandmother.
Blue Order
06-05-07, 09:24 PM
Sounds like the irresponsible person is the one who lets super sensitive/fragile granny wander about out of her wheelchair, ready to fall and get killed by any sudden noise or movement anywhere in her vicinity.That's not what the law says...
noisebeam
08-22-07, 10:32 AM
Head up to Tempe cyclists. Enforcement of the laws is again in full effect with the start of ASU:
I read that this am. in addition to riding wrong-way, they said they are giving out tickets for riding on the sidewalk... I thought that was legal? is there some signage around ASU that prohibits it?
noisebeam
08-22-07, 10:43 AM
I read that this am. in addition to riding wrong-way, they said they are giving out tickets for riding on the sidewalk... I thought that was legal? is there some signage around ASU that prohibits it?
I'm real hazy on the laws and rules, but I am pretty sure there are sidewalks in the Mill Ave. area that are illegal to ride on. There are signs along Mill that say something like "No skateboards, bicycles on sidewalk.
Riding on the paved ped. paths throughout ASU may also be agains the campus rules.