Training & Nutrition - Milk?

http://www.notmilk.com/

Wtf?

http://www.notmilk.com/

Never have liked milk, but loved yogurt. Unfortunately due to the strong association of dairy products with prostate cancer, I gave up all dairy products and almost totally eliminated animal products as well. I've already exhausted both known cures for prostate cancer and can't afford for it to re-occur.

Surprisingly, my wife did as well and has never felt better. Her digestive issues disappeared as did the majority of her chronic allergy symptoms.

If one is interested in the exhaustive science behind the issues with milk and other animal products you can read Campbell's The China Study.

Another interesting item is that those countries with the highest dairy consumption have the highest bone breakage with advancing age. The explanation is quite simple, but kind of suppressed in the past as the doctors and the media get most of their information from the meat and dairy associations. Now folks have a much greater access due to the newer books and possibly the "notmilk" site.

Al

I've recently came to the conclusion that milk is very bad food.

It started by my wife and I getting this kind of lumpy zit. My sister said "avoid milk." I was very doubtful but the acne went away and never returned for both of us. Well my wife will get them because occasionally she's into sour cream and cheese on rare occasion.


I also found that milk fat negatively affects my digestion, my blood flow (which I can feel now that I'm riding more), and my weight loss. It's just terrible for me and it's terrible for my riding. I hate it.

http://www.notmilk.com/

- tks! i really needed some humor today!

(having a nice big chocolate milk right now)

:-)

- tks! i really needed some humor today!

(having a nice big chocolate milk right now)

:-)

My mom has bypass surgery friends who are the same way. "Hey, that stint was a little painful but my arteries feel great now! Let's dig into the ice cream again!"

:)

- tks! i really needed some humor today!

(having a nice big chocolate milk right now)

:-)


:beer:

Those of us who may have seen the light encourage the wise-asses to drink as much milk as possible. Then they'll be a lot fewer high-jacked threads in the future possibly.

Al

How do you know it isn't we, the milk drinkers that have seen the light? Usually when an opposing viewpoint is that offensive, it indicates that the offendee doesn't have much faith in their own viewpoint. I likes me milk, sue me.

Good ol' PETA. I did an analysis of their rhetorical approach for school, and it required digesting lots of their material. Most of it didn't agree with me, nor I with it.

Humans are omnivores, milk is food. Some people can tolerate it, some can't. (I'm still looking for the land of milk and honey.) ;)

How do you know it isn't we, the milk drinkers that have seen the light? Usually when an opposing viewpoint is that offensive, it indicates that the offendee doesn't have much faith in their own viewpoint. I likes me milk, sue me.
Honestly, it's a small effect. Some milk here and there won't kill you. If you're a very highly trained athlete or a supermodel (yes Chip, if you want to go to the Ford Modeling Agency from the Assos catalog, listen up!), you're most likely already avoiding milk and milk fat. Infants and kids probably suffer a little more from milk drinking as well. Cow's milk is meant for baby calves which grow at rates far greater than humans. The non-hippie doctors who write baby books as well as my toddler son's pediatrician are cautious about milk and have a bunch to say about it.

Also, if you work in the ice cream or dairy business, milk fat is a huge hazard. In the craft brewing business, I see a lot of overweight guys but they aren't dying of heart attacks. On the other hand, ice cream execs die of heart attacks left and right while they're still very young.

For the rest of us though, it's about personal preference. I of course think milk is disgusting. ;)

Can somebody point out something we eat or drink that isn't gonna kill us? If it agrees with ya, enjoy, if not, don't.

That site blames milk for playing a significant role in African-American cancer discrepencies versus Whites, linking it with American racism. I've actually studied cancer discrepencies between whites and blacks, and the milk angle has f**k all to do with it. It is a complex problem, with poverty/poor health care providers, lack of health information provision to blacks by providers, and staging at presentation playing significant roles, among other things.

That is sloppy work, and it makes me question the whole site.

EDIT: Just went through the "Acne" entry. It quotes what appears to be an editorial by a JHU Pediatric doc (who I'm sure has reasons for opposing milk drinking in kids/teens), but then follows with journal blurbs which support only parts of the connection. Not saying there isn't one, but again this is "journal-style" editorializing, not to be confused with the work of peer-reviewed journals. Hmmm.

How do you know it isn't we, the milk drinkers that have seen the light? Usually when an opposing viewpoint is that offensive, it indicates that the offendee doesn't have much faith in their own viewpoint. I likes me milk, sue me.

It could be the milk drinkers who've got the best light. There's a lot of conflicting so-called research out there. That's a major reason I would never advise a person what to do. What I do advise is to educate your self to all positions and decide for your self.

There's been at least 40 years of pro-milk propaganda or "light" if you will, so the pro-milk case is well known and understood. The more recent research challenges all that big time. Some study and understanding of that evidence would be a good idea if you'd like to avoid some serious diseases as you get on in years.

I personally find the research and the evidence compelling and that's why I never touch milk products anymore. I'm particularly impressed with the science reported in the China Study. I'm educated and worked as a scientist (and engineer) for about 36 years and it's scientific basis, methodology, data analaysis, etc. are first class. However, as good as it is, it's not absolute proof yet and the author so states numerous times. But the evidence IS sufficient to demolish all the pro-milk evidence that's been around since I was a kid.

Nutrition is not well understood. It's not just vitamins, but there are thousands of chemicals involved in nutrition in ways not yet understood. So you have to keep up and keep weighing the new evidence and hope to make the best decisions.

Per the comment a little milk won't kill you, that depends on the rest of your diet and your susceptibility to prostate cancer and possibly to Alzheimer's although that link is not really as well established yet. It also depends on the definition of "little". In reality, moderation can kill.

Just to be clear, I'm not defending the web site as I have not read anything on it yet.

Al

EDIT: Just went through the "Acne" entry. It quotes what appears to be an editorial by a JHU Pediatric doc (who I'm sure has reasons for opposing milk drinking in kids/teens), but then follows with journal blurbs which support only parts of the connection. Not saying there isn't one, but again this is "journal-style" editorializing, not to be confused with the work of peer-reviewed journals. Hmmm.
This acne thing is interesting to me in that I had huge doubts about milk's relation to them as well.

My wife and I, both big former artisan cheese lovers, used to get these large subcutaneous cyst-like zits in addition to our normal acne. It seems our normal acne cleared up with age but the cyst like ones persisted. My sister took one look at the things and said, "Milk." Maybe it was placebo, but those cyst-like zits went away completely. I was stunned.

Yes, it's anecdotal evidence but the effect was plain as day.


One more anecdote...

Like I said, my wife and I were very into artisan cheese. We went to Saloné del Gusto in Turin, Italy to sample wines, beers, cheeses, breads and sakes. The cheeses were phenomenal and varied and I had to sample everything. After three days of this I could not eat another piece of cheese, even when stuff that I knew was amazingly delicious was put in front of me. That evening, at the age of 34 or so, I had what felt like a very minor heart attack.

I know I was totally gorging on cheese but the whole episode suggested to me that it wouldn't be hard to show that an athlete sitting down to a cheese plate before riding a timed event would not do as well as one with same abilities who did not. I guess that's one challenge for anyone who really loves cheese but doesn't think it affects them negatively.

It could be the milk drinkers who've got the best light. There's a lot of conflicting so-called research out there. That's a major reason I would never advise a person what to do. What I do advise is to educate your self to all positions and decide for your self.

There's been at least 40 years of pro-milk propaganda or "light" if you will, so the pro-milk case is well known and understood. The more recent research challenges all that big time. Some study and understanding of that evidence would be a good idea if you'd like to avoid some serious diseases as you get on in years.

I personally find the research and the evidence compelling and that's why I never touch milk products anymore. I'm particularly impressed with the science reported in the China Study. I'm educated and worked as a scientist (and engineer) for about 36 years and it's scientific basis, methodology, data analaysis, etc. are first class. However, as good as it is, it's not absolute proof yet and the author so states numerous times. But the evidence IS sufficient to demolish all the pro-milk evidence that's been around since I was a kid.

Nutrition is not well understood. It's not just vitamins, but there are thousands of chemicals involved in nutrition in ways not yet understood. So you have to keep up and keep weighing the new evidence and hope to make the best decisions.

Per the comment a little milk won't kill you, that depends on the rest of your diet and your susceptibility to prostate cancer and possibly to Alzheimer's although that link is not really as well established yet. It also depends on the definition of "little". In reality, moderation can kill.

Just to be clear, I'm not defending the web site as I have not read anything on it yet.

Al


I just drink it cuz I like it, not because of what some marketer says. I've liked it since I was a little guy...much better on my tummy than juices, soft drinks, even water. I didn't much like the powdered stuff my momma used to get, but rediscovered the joys of 2% when I went into the military and have been drinking it again ever since. If it's bad for me, there have been no indications after 47 years and heck, there's lots of things that are bad for me that will probably get me first...like smoking, drinking, partying, driving without a seatbelt, riding without a helmet, eating food bought in a store - not to mention fast food. I'm a firm believer that we are all unique...what's good for one may not be so good for another and visa-versa. So I kinda rebel at the barrage of generalizations about everything under the sun and it's potential bad effects. I just do what works for me and respect the right of others to do the same.

I just drink it cuz I like it,.

That's the worst reason of all. The smokers, the heavy drinkers and the over-eaters probably think the same way.

Al

Oh, the earth is flat too.

That's the worst reason of all. The smokers, the heavy drinkers and the over-eaters probably think the same way.

Al

Oh well, seems to bother you more than it does me. :lol:

Al.conoe - I've been following the same plant based diet for the last several months (since reading the China Study), my cholesterol numbers have dropped significantly and my overall "numbers" according to my doc are excellent. It was an odd transition but I feel much better now and have passed the info on to my friends. A few have poo-pooed it and some have decided to try it, I'm happy most are just starting to consider their control over their health in a new light..."diseases of affluence" are so avoidable.

Al.conoe - I've been following the same plant based diet for the last several months (since reading the China Study), my cholesterol numbers have dropped significantly and my overall "numbers" according to my doc are excellent. It was an odd transition but I feel much better now and have passed the info on to my friends. A few have poo-pooed it and some have decided to try it, I'm happy most are just starting to consider their control over their health in a new light..."diseases of affluence" are so avoidable.

Have you noted cycling performance changes?

Have you noted cycling performance changes?
I've been off the bike a while and just started back this year so I can't speak to that. I can say that while kayaking I breathe much better and seem to have less early onset muscle fatigue (burning sensation) in my back and shoulders than I did before the dietary changes.

This acne thing is interesting to me in that I had huge doubts about milk's relation to them as well.

My wife and I, both big former artisan cheese lovers, used to get these large subcutaneous cyst-like zits in addition to our normal acne. It seems our normal acne cleared up with age but the cyst like ones persisted. My sister took one look at the things and said, "Milk." Maybe it was placebo, but those cyst-like zits went away completely. I was stunned.

Yes, it's anecdotal evidence but the effect was plain as day.


One more anecdote...

Like I said, my wife and I were very into artisan cheese. We went to Saloné del Gusto in Turin, Italy to sample wines, beers, cheeses, breads and sakes. The cheeses were phenomenal and varied and I had to sample everything. After three days of this I could not eat another piece of cheese, even when stuff that I knew was amazingly delicious was put in front of me. That evening, at the age of 34 or so, I had what felt like a very minor heart attack.

I know I was totally gorging on cheese but the whole episode suggested to me that it wouldn't be hard to show that an athlete sitting down to a cheese plate before riding a timed event would not do as well as one with same abilities who did not. I guess that's one challenge for anyone who really loves cheese but doesn't think it affects them negatively.

Man, I hope you are not having any complications from that incident, whether it was a heart attack or chest pain or whatever. Yikes.

As for the acne...hey, whatever works. Placebo, cure, I'll take any positive result myself. ;)

I've never been a big milk drinker until very recently, when I started drinking lots of protein shakes, and I'm already looking at ways to cut back by using juice in some of the shakes etc. Cutting back on cheese as well. I don't doubt that there is some validity to at least some of what the website claims...at least for some of the population. However, it inspires me to look at research myself rather than taking their word based on the presentation. My $.02.

That's the worst reason of all. The smokers, the heavy drinkers and the over-eaters probably think the same way.

Al


Yeah, cuz milk is JUST like smoking and heavy drinking and obesity...... :rolleyes:

I used to get acne and have wild mood swings when I was living in PA and drinking PA water. But now that I live in New Jersey, I hardly get any. New Jersey rocks!!! Sure I was a teenager when I lived in PA, but that couldn't be it.

I used to get acne and have wild mood swings when I was living in PA and drinking PA water. But now that I live in New Jersey, I hardly get any. New Jersey rocks!!! Sure I was a teenager when I lived in PA, but that couldn't be it.

Used to?

Humans are omnivores, milk is food. I do drink milk (in my coffee) and have cow milk with cereal (I need to get back to almond milk, not sure what happened, there!). But when I did stop drinking milk for a long time, I felt so much better.

It isn't a bad thing to remember that although it is undeniably a "food," it's "food" especially made for growing baby cows into big cows.

But just for further edification, how about THIS? www.dhmo.org (http://www.dhmo.org) :lol:

What are the dangers of Dihydrogen Monoxide?

Most of these deaths are caused by accidental inhalation of DHMO, but the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide do not end there. Prolonged exposure to its solid form causes severe tissue damage. Symptoms of DHMO ingestion can include excessive sweating and urination, and possibly a bloated feeling, nausea, vomiting and body electrolyte imbalance. For those who have become dependent, DHMO withdrawal means certain death.

Oh well, seems to bother you more than it does me. :lol:

You appear somewhat self centered if you think anyone here is bothered by what you drink. Possibly it's the same logic you use to drink milk.

I encourage you to drink milk, lot's of it. Possibly someday you might earn a nomination for one of those annual Darwin awards.

Al

You appear somewhat self centered if you think anyone here is bothered by what you drink. Possibly it's the same logic you use to drink milk.

I encourage you to drink milk, lot's of it. Possibly someday you might earn a nomination for one of those annual Darwin awards.

Al

Yeah, yeah, typical safety nanny response. It pisses you off to no end that people can do all the things you are afraid of and not only survive, but thrive. Yep, I fall under Darwin alright...survival of the fittest. :lol:

Al.conoe - I've been following the same plant based diet for the last several months (since reading the China Study), my cholesterol numbers have dropped significantly and my overall "numbers" according to my doc are excellent. It was an odd transition but I feel much better now and have passed the info on to my friends. A few have poo-pooed it and some have decided to try it, I'm happy most are just starting to consider their control over their health in a new light..."diseases of affluence" are so avoidable.

I never thought I'd be on a Vegan diet, much less that my wife would too. I was actually some what hostile to the China Study as I read the recommendations at the end first. But in hindsight, I already was eating meat only a couple of times a week and very minimal amounts of dairy. That's mostly because over the years I discovered I felt better that way.

My son-law's cholesterol really went down, like 35 points to around 150. Mine didn't budge a bit.

One caution though. It's tricky being vegan. You have to insure to get sufficient protein which Campbell implies is no problem. I mentally added up what I roughly get and I think it's hard to insure you get enough for folks like me who don't do soy. I get and extra 20 grams a day by supplementing with rice protein.

Best I can tell you need 0.45 gram/pound body weight for a couch potato to 1 gram for a extremely active person like a Tour de France participant. This is from Monique Ryan's book. I figure I need an average of 100 to 110 grams a day.

Before I supplemented, my last annual blood test put the blood protein in the middle of the acceptable range, but I felt like I had lost some energy and I was sleeping an extra hour at night. After about a month of protein supplementing I got back to my usual self. Not proof it had anything to do with protein, so I will experiment further.

Al

It pisses you off to no end that people can do all the things you are afraid of and not only survive, but thrive. :


Sounds like you are REALLY bothered! Sorry!

Al

Used to?


Nothing but a perfect complexion and my mood is consistently pinned on b#itch 24/7. :)

gave up cow juice about 5 yrs ago.. Got SoyMilk?

Sounds like you are REALLY bothered! Sorry!

Al

I'm not the one railing away about milk and Darwin and 'worst reasons', pal. If not drinking milk makes is what it takes for you to feel superior to others, good for you, better than taking meds I suppose. :lol:

Nothing but a perfect complexion and my mood is consistently pinned on b#itch 24/7. :)

Nice! ;)

gave up cow juice about 5 yrs ago.. Got SoyMilk?
Love soymilk! Cow milk tastes really weird to me now.

Love soymilk! Cow milk tastes really weird to me now. An adult human, wet nursed on the teat of a cud-chewing cow is indeed a very weird thing. Throw in loads of antibiotics, steroid and hormone treatments into the "mother's milk" and you got something super freaking sketchy going on! :lol: I can't imagine if dairies didn't exist. Would humans be found late night in the barn stealing a suckle?

I usually exercise aerobically and occasionally weight lift for weight loss purpose. I always finish up with whey protein or I take micellar casein 40 min before. Will this sort of ruin, so the speak, trying to not eat dairy for a day? (I'm seeing if I can make 7 days of it, and notice how I feel afterwards)

An adult human, wet nursed on the teat of a cud-chewing cow is indeed a very weird thing. Throw in loads of antibiotics, steroid and hormone treatments into the "mother's milk" and you got something super freaking sketchy going on! :lol: I can't imagine if dairies didn't exist. Would humans be found late night in the barn stealing a suckle?


And Soy milk is SOOO natural... :rolleyes:

And Soy milk is SOOO natural... :rolleyes:

Based on some excellent posts on this site and some research by my daughter, Soy is not "naturally" consumed in significant quantities, even by the Asians. Apparently, the so-called long-formented soy IS consumed in very moderate quantities.

Years ago I tried soy milk just for cereal. Tasted better than milk. However, after about 10 days my digestive system felt like it had shut down. I stopped the soy and got back to normal. I repeated the soy milk as an experiment twice more and got the same results each time. I must be soy intollerant.

I would suspect milk is as natural as the soy. Soy milk it's highly processed and adulterated too if I remember the label information correctly. Plus if the soy is imported from Asia, who knows the chemicals it contains as there are no real enforced standards over there.

Al

Since I've added more soy to my diet, my hotflashes are almost gone. I'd rather do soy than pills made from horse urine (premarin). :D

I can't stand the taste of soy yogurt so I eat dairy yogurt. Strangely, I can't stand the taste of plain cow's milk.

Rice milk is a good alternative.

And Soy milk is SOOO natural... :rolleyes:

Why are you assuming people who avoid dairy drink soy milk?

I just made almond milk, and tried it a few minutes ago. It's pretty good :)

Just a random thought...

Last night, my wife was reading "Heidi" to our daughter. (The children's novel, written ages ago.) For breakfast the characters would have a bowl of goat milk. For dinner they'd have toasted goat cheese. (No bread, just a big hunk of cheese.) I want a goat. ;)

People have been drinking the milk of goats and cows since prehistoric times. We practically invented the modern milk cow; they're just big, dumb, biological machines. My daughter is allergic to soy, and is just getting over her cow milk allergies. Rice milk just doesn't have the fat or protein (or myriad other things) that milk has. It's in a completely different nutritional class. (Yes, they add stuff to it, but I don't trust manufactured foods to provide complete nutrition.) So we started giving her. . .goat milk! If it could help poor Clara learn to walk. . .

And since milk from the store is more or less manufactured, too, I don't completely trust it, either. Fresh milk from pastured cows would be much better, but how many people can keep cows?

Drinking the milk of another animal does seem a bit strange, but no more so than drinking rotten grain or fruit.

(What I wonder is who first looked at an artichoke and thought "That looks good to eat" and then kept chewing on it long enough to find the good part.)

(What I wonder is who first looked at an artichoke and thought "That looks good to eat" and then kept chewing on it long enough to find the good part.)

The first guy to find one that was really hungry.

Al

Just a random thought...

Last night, my wife was reading "Heidi" to our daughter. (The children's novel, written ages ago.) For breakfast the characters would have a bowl of goat milk. For dinner they'd have toasted goat cheese. (No bread, just a big hunk of cheese.) I want a goat. ;)

People have been drinking the milk of goats and cows since prehistoric times. We practically invented the modern milk cow; they're just big, dumb, biological machines. My daughter is allergic to soy, and is just getting over her cow milk allergies. Rice milk just doesn't have the fat or protein (or myriad other things) that milk has. It's in a completely different nutritional class. (Yes, they add stuff to it, but I don't trust manufactured foods to provide complete nutrition.) So we started giving her. . .goat milk! If it could help poor Clara learn to walk. . .

And since milk from the store is more or less manufactured, too, I don't completely trust it, either. Fresh milk from pastured cows would be much better, but how many people can keep cows?

Drinking the milk of another animal does seem a bit strange, but no more so than drinking rotten grain or fruit.

(What I wonder is who first looked at an artichoke and thought "That looks good to eat" and then kept chewing on it long enough to find the good part.)

Goats milk is better for three reasons

1. It doesn't contain a milk protein found in cow's milk that is the most difficult to digest
2. It doesn't contain all the fungicides, pesticides (from grass and grain), hormones and antibiotics found in your non-organic cow's milk. The major brand of commercial goat's milk in the US is organic
3. The nutrient mix is not as hefty as cow's milk. Goats are smaller than cows.

My infant son recently made the painful switch from formula to milk and oh man, I wasn't prepared for it. He got painful rashes, would wake up screaming and reduced his total intake by 50%. Switching to organic alone eliminated the painful rashes. That's a bit freaky. What the heck is in our milk supply and why?

The first guy to find one that was really hungry.

Al

Even better is the story behind South American yagé which is prepared by toasting a tree bark and adding it to a pot of water where it's boiled for hours with another plant with the unique property of making an alkaloid in the bark bioactive. The dimethyltryptamine would otherwise be easily broken down.

Given that this went down in the rainforest, the odds of coming up with this combination, even minus the heat processing, is probably smaller than being crushed by a meteor.

I bought some hemp milk the other day and it is the first plant "milk" I didn't like too much.

Too much aftertaste...

I saw on a site I usually get powder protein from, the hemp protein. I thought it was from nuts, but I'm not sure. I tried oat milk today also. Now that is good!