The myth of the perfectly competent cyclist

[Niles H.]

It is dangerous to presume that one's skills, however evolved, are infallible or perfect.

Even the most experienced and skillful cyclists still make mistakes.

Throw any cyclist a few curve balls and see how perfect his batting average is. Cyclists, including VCers, are often somewhat athletic, but far from perfectly athletic. Put them out in the real world, in a variety of fast-breaking difficult (hardball) situations, and see how perfectly they respond. See what their reaction times are.

See how some of their theories fall apart completely.

[Helmet Head]

It is dangerous to presume that one's skills, however evolved, are infallible or perfect.

Even the most experienced and skillful cyclists still make mistakes.

Throw any cyclist a few curve balls and see how perfect his batting average is. Cyclists, including VCers, are often somewhat athletic, but far from perfectly athletic. Put them out in the real world, in a variety of fast-breaking difficult (hardball) situations, and see how perfectly they respond. See what their reaction times are.

See how some of their theories fall apart completely. Perfect competence, e.g., achieving 100 on Forester's test, is not required to be competent (only 70% is required).

There are VCers playing "hardball" in every corner of the world, including all over the U.S.

[CB HI]

Not really sure what your point is Niles or what is up with the multiple threads on what appear to be similar rants.

[chipcom]

To the OP....did you just figure that out? Don't care who you are or how you ride...best laid plans of mice and men and all that...

To HH - Forester's test is to cycling competence as tarot cards are to predicting the future.

[Niles H.]

...Don't care who you are or how you ride...best laid plans of mice and men and all that...

...Forester's test is to cycling competence as tarot cards are to predicting the future.


We all goof up at times -- try anything like basketball, football, soccer, baseball, or a wide variety of other things, and (unless one is not honest with oneself) flaws appear. Misses. Fumbles. Dropped catches. Bad swings, bad moves, bad calls.

Yet somehow, some cyclists (or arguers for certain theories) do not take this into account very well.

The combination of bad calls or moves and highly dangerous (or not very forgiving) environments is a dangerous one. Riding among vastly heavier, harder, stronger vehicles when they are traveling at high speeds, and then making a wrong move now and then (as we all do) is..........

Yet somehow, there is a certain (flawed) logic train that some people follow and buy into that leads them to do things that are self-endangering.

[Helmet Head]

We all goof up at times -- try anything like basketball, football, soccer, baseball, or a wide variety of other things, and (unless one is not honest with oneself) flaws appear. Misses. Fumbles. Dropped catches. Bad swings, bad moves, bad calls.

Yet somehow, some cyclists (or arguers for certain theories) do not take this into account very well.

The combination of bad calls or moves and highly dangerous (or not very forgiving) environments is a dangerous one. Riding among vastly heavier, harder, stronger vehicles when they are traveling at high speeds, and then making a wrong move now and then (as we all do) is..........

Yet somehow, there is a certain (flawed) logic train that some people follow and buy into that leads them to do things that are self-endangering. Actually, a big part of VC - the whole visibility/predictability thing - rests on the possibility of the cyclist screwing up. If he screws up while visible and predictable he's likely to be better off than if he screws up while being overlooked and/or unpredictable.

VC is also about being less likely to screw up in the first place, by relying on habit and good practices along with vigilance rather than relying more on vigilance and less on habit and good practices as is done in other methods.

[chipcom]

We all goof up at times -- try anything like basketball, football, soccer, baseball, or a wide variety of other things, and (unless one is not honest with oneself) flaws appear. Misses. Fumbles. Dropped catches. Bad swings, bad moves, bad calls.

Yet somehow, some cyclists (or arguers for certain theories) do not take this into account very well.

The combination of bad calls or moves and highly dangerous (or not very forgiving) environments is a dangerous one. Riding among vastly heavier, harder, stronger vehicles when they are traveling at high speeds, and then making a wrong move now and then (as we all do) is..........

Yet somehow, there is a certain (flawed) logic train that some people follow and buy into that leads them to do things that are self-endangering.

If it's so dangerous, why aren't the fatality and injury rates per mile travelled higher? Yes, everyone makes mistakes, but if you pay attention and don't take what you are doing lightly, you are far less likely to make that mistake in a situation that will get you badly injured. The same applies in any endeavor. IMO, getting in a car and driving every day carries much more risk than riding a bike.

[chipcom]

Actually, a big part of VC - the whole visibility/predictability thing - rests on the possibility of the cyclist screwing up. If he screws up while visible and predictable he's likely to be better off than if he screws up while being overlooked and/or unpredictable.

VC is also about being less likely to screw up in the first place, by relying on habit and good practices along with vigilance rather than relying more on vigilance and less on habit and good practices as is done in other methods.

Yes, we know, vc is everything - especially when you are a zealot. :rolleyes:

[Helmet Head]

Yes, we know, vc is everything - especially when you are a zealot. :rolleyes:
Baseless opinion and insult that adds nothing to the discourse.

[Bekologist]

gap hunter! :roflmao:

[chipcom]

Baseless opinion and insult that adds nothing to the discourse.

Putting in plugs for your made-up brand of vc doesn't do much for it either. I'm thinking of a new sig line:

HH™ Vehicular Cycling - it'll get ya killed!

[flipped4bikes]

Baseless opinion and insult that adds nothing to the discourse.

And in other news, the kettle is still black! :D

[Helmet Head]

And in other news, the kettle is still black! :D Well, if you're suggesting that my post stating "Baseless opinion and insult that adds nothing to the discourse" is itself "Baseless opinion and insult that adds nothing to the discourse", I disagree.

The reasons I disagree are:
It's not baseless. The statement I quoted, "yes, we know, vc is everything - especially when you are a zealot.", was obviously pure opinion (no basis was provided for the allegation that my opinion is "vc is everything") and insult ("you are a zealot" was not meant as a complement).
It's not an insult.But I admit it added nothing to the discourse, nor does this post.

[zeytoun]

Yes, we know, vc is everything - especially when you are a zealot. :rolleyes:
Baseless opinion and insult that adds nothing to the discourse.
A Zealous VC advocate is someone who advocates Vehicular Cycling with eagerness and ardent interest. Given the absence of actual advocates of Strict VC, the term zealous VC advocate rarely if ever is used to refer to an actual advocate of Strict VC.
I think zealot is based upon your own words.

You advocate VC with eagerness and ardent interest, do you not?

So by your own admission, you are a zealous VC advocate.

What is the noun form of a person who is zealous? A zealot.

I'm sorry if you find it insulting, but then maybe you should have chosen a different word for yourself.

[Helmet Head]

I think zealot is based upon your own words.

You advocate VC with eagerness and ardent interest, do you not?

So by your own admission, you are a zealous VC advocate.

What is the noun form of a person who is zealous? A zealot.

I'm sorry if you find it insulting, but then maybe you should have chosen a different word for yourself. Please stop taking things out of context, zeytoun, as if you don't get the significance.

Surely you recognize that Chipcom intended it to be an insult, not a complement.

Again, context matters. It's akin to it being appropriate for people to use the N-word or the B-word (female dog) in reference to themselves, but not in reference to others.

If someone wants to describe his own zeal with respect to something as being zealous, that's very different from someone else referring to that person as a zealot. If you ignore the relevance and role of context when interpreting words, communication is impossible.

Please stop playing these semantic games of sophistry.

[Bekologist]

yeah, HE says communication is impossible. no doubt.


gap hunters of internet bicycling,

rally behind the banners of weekend club fred bike 'zealots' that drive their cars an awful lot!

[Bekologist]

context and experience DO matter when discussing an activity like bicycling or mountaineering. in the climbing world, there's a not-too flattering term for big talkers - "armchair mountaineers"

for the types of junk i see about bicycling posted by a self described 'zealot' about riding bicycles in this forum, 'armchair bicyclist' is pretty appropriate.

[chipcom]

Please stop taking things out of context, zeytoun, as if you don't get the significance.

Surely you recognize that Chipcom intended it to be an insult, not a complement.

Again, context matters. It's akin to it being appropriate for people to use the N-word or the B-word (female dog) in reference to themselves, but not in reference to others.

If someone wants to describe his own zeal with respect to something as being zealous, that's very different from someone else referring to that person as a zealot. If you ignore the relevance and role of context when interpreting words, communication is impossible.

Please stop playing these semantic games of sophistry.

Now you are a mind reader too? What can't you do HH?
If you are insulted by the term zealot, you must consider yourself a zealot.

[zeytoun]

If someone wants to describe his own zeal with respect to something as being zealous, that's very different from someone else referring to that person as a zealot.
Ok, let's substitute your words in Chip's quote, and see if the meaning changes substantively.

Yes, we know, vc is everything - especially when you are very eager and ardent about advocating VC. :rolleyes:
Do you find that insulting? I think the substantive meaning of his post is not very different from before.

It's akin to it being appropriate for people to use the N-word or the B-word (female dog) in reference to themselves, but not in reference to others.
What does this mean? It's a little confusing. I'm guessing you mean that it's ok for you to call yourself zealous, but that you should not call others zealous. But if you call yourself zealous, then surely others can call you zealous, right?

[Helmet Head]

Now you are a mind reader too? What can't you do HH?
If you are insulted by the term zealot, you must consider yourself a zealot.
I'm not insulted by anything you morons write about me (if I were, I'd be long gone).

I'm just pointing out when you (or anyone else) refers to someone else as a zealot, it's an insult, and inappropriate in a civil forum. Yes, yes, I know I referred to Bek as a jihadist today. My bad.

[Helmet Head]

What does this mean? It's a little confusing. I'm guessing you mean that it's ok for you to call yourself zealous, but that you should not call others zealous. But if you call yourself zealous, then surely others can call you zealous, right? Depending on the context and intent, maybe or maybe not.

If an African American refers to himself using the N-word, that's one thing.
If someone else, particularly a white guy, refers to him using the exact same word, that has an entirely different connotation. Context matters. You can't simply take words out of one context and insert it into another and assume there are no differences in connotation. I hope this is not news to you.

[Bekologist]

the myth of helmet heads' riding skills revolves around internet semantics and wordplay versus actual bicycling.

[Helmet Head]

the myth of helmet heads' riding skills revolves around internet semantics and wordplay versus actual bicycling.
We are trying to communicate about riding skills using words on the internet.

Your apparent inability to discern genuine efforts to accurately convey and clarify meaning from sophistic semantic wordplay is disappointing.

[zeytoun]

morons
Harassment occurs when a member insults, attacks, and denigrates another member at any time. We have zero tolerance for taking an argument about a any topic to a personal level. For instance, the use of terms such as "idiot, moron, stupid" and other derogatory terms constitutes harassment. The idea is to make this a pleasant environment to discuss cycling, not a schoolyard, or name-calling and rock-throwing festival. Repeated critical and sharply negative posts toward a forum member can also constitute harassment.
By the way, "zealot" is not necessarily a derogatory term. Look it up.

What is the noun form of a zealous person?

[Helmet Head]

Yes, I shouldn't have referred to others as morons.

By the way, "zealot" is not necessarily a derogatory term. Look it up.

What is the noun form of a zealous person?
Good question. But the definition of zealot is not simply "a zealous person".

[zeytoun]

zeal·ot http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pnghttp://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2Fzealot) /ˈzɛlhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngət/ Pronunciation Key (http://bikeforums.net/) - Show Spelled Pronunciation (http://bikeforums.net/)[zel-uhhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngt] Pronunciation Key (http://bikeforums.net/) - Show IPA Pronunciation (http://bikeforums.net/) –noun 1.a person who shows zeal. 2.an excessively zealous person; fanatic. 3.(initial capital letterhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png) a member of a radical, warlike, ardently patriotic group of Jews in Judea, particularly prominent from a.d. 69 to 81, advocating the violent overthrow of Roman rule and vigorously resisting the efforts of the Romans and their supporters to heathenize the Jews.
But the definition of zealot is not simply "a zealous person".
Stop playing semantic games.

Do you show zeal? Do you show "fervor for a person, cause, or object; eager desire or endeavor; enthusiastic diligence; ardor."? According to your posts, you do.

What is the noun form of one who shows zeal?

It's a zealot. Get a grip.

[Helmet Head]

As if Chipcom meant "1. a person who shows zeal", and did not mean, "2. an excessively zealous person; fanatic."

Please. You know better. You are playing the sophistic game of acting as if Chipcom meant (1) when you know he meant (2).

If I'm wrong, Chipcom can correct me and I will be happy to apologize.

[zeytoun]

Please. You know better. You are playing the sophistic game of acting as if Chipcom meant (1) when you know he meant (2).
I, in fact, don't know exactly what Chipcom meant.

Here is what I inferred as his meaning:
Yes, we know, vc is everything - especially when you are so very eager and ardent about advocating VC. :rolleyes:

[chipcom]

You can pick whichever definition tickles your little heart, HH, you fit two out of the three...maybe even three out of three...are you Jewish by chance?

[Helmet Head]

You are such a hypocrite, as well as being a liar.

Not insulted? Just a single example, among many. (http://bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=4407900&postcount=373)

Serge, what is so very amusing is that you constantly find yourself in "semantic" arguments because you have such great difficulty communicating like normal people do. When coupled with an apparent need to "always be right," it makes for some spectacular threads wherein folks can watch you tie yourself into knots as you unsuccessfully attempt to "win."

Even more amusing is watching your contortions while people so VERY obviously play with you, using your own words to point out your flawed "reasoning" (often coupled with numerous Headspeak™ gyrations. The fact that you cannot see that you're repeatedly being played like a fiddle is astounding.
Yes, my feelings were hurt by that, post, Pete. But I am not insulted by Chipcom's and Bek's inane comments.

As far as being played, I know and I don't care. I don't understand why people choose to spend their time doing that, but I use it as an opportunity to expand and clarify on my position, including working out the inevitable inconsistencies and problems that you and others take so much odd delight in finding, no matter how insignificant with respect to the overall relevant issues they may be.

[zeytoun]

But I am not insulted by Chipcom's and Bek's inane comments.
So that's who you were referring to when you said "you morons". I feel a little left out.

[rando]

So that's who you were referring to when you said "you morons". I feel a little left out.

it's OK, Zeytoun, I'll call you a moron!:p

I'm a moron, you're a moron, he's a moron, wouldn't you like to be a moron, too? :eek:

[zeytoun]

it's OK, Zeytoun, I'll call you a moron!:p

I'm a moron, you're a moron, he's a moron, wouldn't you like to be a moron, too? :eek:
Why you dirty zealot..... :p

[Helmet Head]

Did you get the flowers that I sent?



Based upon the evidence at hand (your posting history), that's another lie, and you are insulted by what they write.



Another lie.



Why do you think that your inconsistent claims/outright fabrications are inevitable?

Speaking of credibility Serge, I guess this is the second time that you've gloated about "ignoring" me, while responding to me. Do you need some help with the ignore function? I'm sure someone with a little computer savvy could walk you through it.
Here's the problem. How much of the above is serious, how much is "playing" me? Is any of it serious? Who knows? Back on ignore you go.

[uberleet]

Here's the problem. How much of the above is serious, how much is "playing" me? Is any of it serious? Who knows? Back on ignore you go.
SOMEBODY CALL THE WAHMBULANCE!

[rando]

No Soup for you!

[zeytoun]

Killing me softly with his semantic sophistry

I heard he sang a good song, I heard he had a style,
And so I came to answer his questions for a while.
And there he was this young boy, stranger to my eyes,
Strumming my pain with his pedantry,
Mocking my polls with his words,
Taking my posts out of context,
Killing me softly with his posts,
Summing my whole belief system with his words,
Killing me softly with his semantic sophistry.
I felt all flushed with fever,
Embarrassed by the crowd,
I felt he found all my threads and read each one out loud.
I prayed that he would finish,
But he just kept right on strumming my pain with his pedantry,
Mocking my polls with his words,
Taking my posts out of context,
Killing me softly with his posts,
Summing my whole belief system with his words,
Killing me softly with his semantic sophistry.

[le brad]

Perfect competence, e.g., achieving 100 on Forester's test, is not required to be competent (only 70% is required).

There are VCers playing "hardball" in every corner of the world, including all over the U.S.

wait. there is a test!?:lol:

[natelutkjohn]

wait. there is a test!?:lol:

WHAT!?!?!?!?!? You don't know? then GET OFF THE ROAD YOU INCOMPETENT CYCLIST YOU! :roflmao:

[le brad]

WHAT!?!?!?!?!? You don't know? then GET OFF THE ROAD YOU INCOMPETENT CYCLIST YOU! :roflmao:

all this time I've been riding around with my pedalcycle skills completely unscored!?

[Bekologist]

There are VCers playing "hardball" in every corner of the world, including all over the U.S.

is that 'gap hunting', or talking to radio shock jockeys about how bicyclists should be liscensed?

you humor me, head. rabid foresterites would be merely pathetic if they weren't so insidiously and damagingly anti-populist towards the rest of the bicycling community.