VC = Vigilant Cycling

[Helmet Head]

We've talked about the relationship between vigilance and VC (obeying the rules) before.

I don't want to take this thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=4549202) up in A&S off topic, so I'm starting this one, but if you read the OP you'll find an excellent example of how paying attention is often required in order to be able to consistently obey the rules of the road. In this case, these guys were not paying attention, and, so, were not able to notice a stop sign in time to stop for it.

The point here is to counter Robert Hurst's criticism of EC/VC that we don't emphasize vigilance. The reason for that is that vigilance is inherent in obeying the rules of the road: if you're not paying careful attention for potential hazards, you cannot consistently obey the rules.

VC may stand for Vigilant Cycling as well as for Vehicular Cycling.

[zeytoun]

Other things that VC can stand for

Value-Added Cycling for those that think in business terms
Vehement Cycling for those that are full of zeal for their technique
Verbal Cycling for those that just talk about cycling on the internet
Vestigial Cycling for those that consider the fine points of the technique a superfluous carry-over from former times

[rando]

Vegan Cycling-- for those who don't consume animal products

Verboten Cycling-- for those who want to feel like a rebel

Varmint Cycling-- for those who like to ride with possums and such

vagabond Cycling-- kind of like touring, but you make a lifestyle out of it.

Vivaldi Cycling-- while listening to "The Four Seasons"

Vermicelli Cycling-- Cycling and eating Pasta at the same time

[genec]

Venture Capitalist.

[sbhikes]

Vicious cycling, like the way these arguments go 'round...

[noisebeam]

Vain Cycling ;)

[zeytoun]

Vicious cycling
Nice double entendre :)

[zeytoun]

By the way, Casque Tete, it appears you are using "paying attention" and "vigilance" interchangeably in your OP. Am I mistaken? If I am, would you highlight the big difference between the two, in the terms of you OP?

Paying attention and vigilance are not the same thing.

[Helmet Head]

By the way, Casque Tete, it appears you are using "paying attention" and "vigilance" interchangeably in your OP. Am I mistaken? If I am, would you highlight the big difference between the two, in the terms of you OP?
Vigilance is paying attention over time, with particular attention paid to potential danger.

[zeytoun]

So how does VC emphasize vigilance?

Or is vigilance just an implied stepping stone to VC?

[I-Like-To-Bike]

VC may stand for Vigilant Cycling as well as for Vehicular Cycling.
Some VC were not just weekend peloton riding blabbermouths.

http://www.transchool.eustis.army.mil/museum/VCBIKE.htm

[John C. Ratliff]

Vigilance is paying attention over time, with particular attention paid to potential danger.
I thought that cycling was a relatively non-hazardous sport (some here say so). If so, why the need to be so vigilant?

John

[John C. Ratliff]

Some VC were not just weekend peloton riding blabbermouths.

http://www.transchool.eustis.army.mil/museum/VCBIKE.htm
I brought up this connotation of "VC" for US ex-military from the 1960s and 1970s, and I don't think people realized what I was talking about. Thanks for sharing this link.

John

[Bekologist]

verbosa craposa disorder.

characterized by delusions and paranoid thought processes.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

I thought that cycling was a relatively non-hazardous sport (some here say so). If so, why the need to be so vigilant?

John
It helps to sell/market/promote Safety-Related Materials.

Think Styrofoam, as well as proprietary Safety Training courses.

[flipped4bikes]

I think Vainglorious Cycling is a better fit.

:roflmao:

[sbhikes]

Vicarious Cycling. The kind one does from the comfort of your computer chair, or your automobile, or your RV.

[Bekologist]

but head you talk repeatedly about NOT following the rules of the road if it doesn't benefit your riding..... why the contradictions?

and like diane states above, a lot of this VC blather is vicarious bicycling, engaged in front of a computer screen by a sometimes, part timer, weekend club fred rider, and emphatically NOT a transportational bicyclist.

[skanking biker]

Vicarious Cycling. The kind one does from the comfort of your computer chair, or your automobile, or your RV.


ding ding ding ding ding ding ding!!!! ....... Tell 'er whats shes won Johneeey!

[zeytoun]

Helmie,

Do any of the VC publications of John Forrester specifically highlight the need for vigilance?

Or is vigilance just an implied stepping stone to VC?

[John Forester]

Helmie,

Do any of the VC publications of John Forrester specifically highlight the need for vigilance?

Or is vigilance just an implied stepping stone to VC?

I have frequently written that the cyclist who understands and practices vehicular cycling, because he understands the pattern by which traffic should operate, is well equipped to detect the motions of a vehicle that indicate that it is being driven in a non-vehicular manner. Therefore, such a cyclist is more able to take evasive action than is a person who, not understanding how traffic should operate, does not detect the non-vehicular operation until much later.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

I have frequently written that the cyclist who understands and practices vehicular cycling, because he understands the pattern by which traffic should operate, is well equipped to detect the motions of a vehicle that indicate that it is being driven in a non-vehicular manner. Therefore, such a cyclist is more able to take evasive action than is a person who, not understanding how traffic should operate, does not detect the non-vehicular operation until much later.
Forester has written;
Therefore it is so;
Got it? :rolleyes:

[zeytoun]

I have frequently written that the cyclist who understands and practices vehicular cycling, because he understands the pattern by which traffic should operate, is well equipped to detect the motions of a vehicle that indicate that it is being driven in a non-vehicular manner. Therefore, such a cyclist is more able to take evasive action than is a person who, not understanding how traffic should operate, does not detect the non-vehicular operation until much later.
What about a cyclist who "understands" traffic patterns, but does not practice VC?

Comparing a vehicular cyclist who also understand traffic patterns to a non-vehicular cyclist who does not understand traffic is like comparing the test scores of a smart kid with a pencil and a dumb kid with a pen, and saying that a pencil is the factor that causes the better test score.

[John Forester]

What about a cyclist who "understands" traffic patterns, but does not practice VC?

Comparing a vehicular cyclist who also understand traffic patterns to a non-vehicular cyclist who does not understand traffic is like comparing the test scores of a smart kid with a pencil and a dumb kid with a pen, and saying that a pencil is the factor that causes the better test score.

Then, when riding on the roadway, he is riding dangerously. I rather doubt that a cyclist who understands how traffic works is then going to consciously violate the rules of the road that he recognizes endanger him. Oh, well, we know of the scofflaw cyclists who deliberately violate the rules of the road in the belief that their superior competence will enable them to avoid the dangers so created. Bike messengers are one example, but there are some others, including ILTB according to his own confession, and some pseudo-racing groups which have become notorious.

[zeytoun]

Oh, well, we know of the scofflaw cyclists who deliberately violate the rules of the road in the belief that their superior competence will enable them to avoid the dangers so created.
It appears to work though:

the accident/injury rate of the entire population of Boston messengers, including all the hapless, ridiculous rookies, was in the same ballpark as the Moritz rate for the highly experienced LAB member. That should tell you something about the veteran messengers.
And that's my point. In science you need to isolate a variable to show causation. Does VC show an improvement in safety between identical riders (same understanding of traffic, same athletic levels, same bicycles) who ride differently (say, on VC, one "inferior-style", and one "scofflaw-style")?
It hasn't.
So, scientifically, riding VC cannot be said to cause an improvement in safety.

[sbhikes]

Funny but all this "understanding" of traffic patterns can be done quite well from a bike lane. Not sure what it has to do with vehicular cycling.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

Bike messengers are one example, but there are some others, including ILTB according to his own confession, and some pseudo-racing groups which have become notorious.
Confessin' da VC Blues was I, eh? You must have me confused with Junior Wells who was singing the Viet Cong Blues.
http://www.bluesforpeace.com/lyrics/vietcong-blues.htm

[John Forester]

It appears to work though:


And that's my point. In science you need to isolate a variable to show causation. Does VC show an improvement in safety between identical riders (same understanding of traffic, same athletic levels, same bicycles) who ride differently (say, on VC, one "inferior-style", and one "scofflaw-style")?
It hasn't.
So, scientifically, riding VC cannot be said to cause an improvement in safety.

You are asking more than social science can deliver. We have to reach conclusions on similar but not identical cases. I rather doubt that a cyclist who understands traffic would ride in the cyclist-inferior method, because he would recognize that it endangered him. The scofflaw-style I identified as one who understands traffic but that refuses to obey the rules, trusting to his superior skill to counteract the added danger. But scoff-law cyclists are relatively rare. The typical cyclist who rides in the cyclist-inferior style is just plain incompetent; hence so many of the car-bike collisions documented in such things as the Cross study.

[John Forester]

Funny but all this "understanding" of traffic patterns can be done quite well from a bike lane. Not sure what it has to do with vehicular cycling.

You comment is utterly irrelevant. The understanding of traffic patterns is a form of knowledge that, once learned, is carried around in your brain to wherever you happen to be.

[zeytoun]

You are asking more than social science can deliver.
No. I am asking more that you have delivered.

All you have to do is measure the subjects of a study. Have them take a knowledge test. Have them take a fitness test. Have them fill out a survey or take a test on their riding style. Then have them log their miles, document any accidents, injuries. Is this beyond the ability of science?

I rather doubt that a cyclist who understands traffic would ride in the cyclist-inferior method, because he would recognize that it endangered him.
Circular logic.

All I am pointing out, John, is that you are comparing a vehicular cyclist who also understand traffic patterns to a non-vehicular cyclist who does not understand traffic.

Understanding traffic is a pretty big variable in safety as you have admitted, and yet has no required correlation to riding behavior, as I have demonstrated.

[John Forester]

No. I am asking more that you have delivered.

All you have to do is measure the subjects of a study. Have them take a knowledge test. Have them take a fitness test. Have them fill out a survey or take a test on their riding style. Then have them log their miles, document any accidents, injuries. Is this beyond the ability of science?


Circular logic.

All I am pointing out, John, is that you are comparing a vehicular cyclist who also understand traffic patterns to a non-vehicular cyclist who does not understand traffic.

Understanding traffic is a pretty big variable in safety as you have admitted, and yet has no required correlation to riding behavior, as I have demonstrated.

You haven't demonstrated such: the example of the bicycle messengers is not such a demonstration, being quite out of the ordinary for the typical cycling populations. Yes, it is theoretically possible to take a large sample of cyclists, test their riding styles, and then log in their riding history over the duration of the test, with accidents. This has not been done. However, what has been done is to measure the accident rate per mile for different groups of cyclists. The groups were general child cyclists, general university-associated cyclists, members of several cycling organizations, new members of Cyclists' Touring Club, old members of CTC. The assumption made about cycling style is that the members of the cycling organizations studied rode in a more vehicular style than did the members of the general public or the new members of CTC. That assumption was well in accordance with observations made many times at the era of these studies. The accident rate ratios were of the order of 25 for the members vs 100 for the nonmembers.

[zeytoun]

What do you think is the causative factor behind the fact that "scofflaw" bike messengers have safety levels similar to vehicular cyclists?

I would think that reasonable hypotheses would include, fitness, conditioned reflexes, hyper-vigilance, awareness and understanding about how traffic flows, etc.

If I told you that it was because their riding behavior was inherently safer you would laugh at me.


And now, you can imagine very easily how the CTC members likely also share such attributes as fitness, conditioned reflexes, hyper-vigilance, awareness and understanding about how traffic flows.

So now, we can suspect that it is these attributes that are a causative factor, or we can credit something else, namely VC riding techniques.

Have you heard of Occam's razor? ;)

[sbhikes]

I rather doubt that a cyclist who understands traffic would ride in the cyclist-inferior method, because he would recognize that it endangered him.
Why would anybody think that unless they only think about cycling from the armchair and not from the bicycle seat?

Understanding traffic doesn't stop when there's bike lane paint in the vicinity.

You guys crack me up with your magical paint theories.

[John Forester]

Why would anybody think that unless they only think about cycling from the armchair and not from the bicycle seat?

Understanding traffic doesn't stop when there's bike lane paint in the vicinity.

You guys crack me up with your magical paint theories.

This puzzles me. It appears to me that bike-lane advocates have the magical paint theories, while vehicular cyclists consider the stripe to be irrelevant. The problem with bike-lane stripes is that they confuse those who are not firm in their understanding of traffic patterns, meaning the typical cyclist and the typical motorist.

[John Forester]

What do you think is the causative factor behind the fact that "scofflaw" bike messengers have safety levels similar to vehicular cyclists?

I would think that reasonable hypotheses would include, fitness, conditioned reflexes, hyper-vigilance, awareness and understanding about how traffic flows, etc.

If I told you that it was because their riding behavior was inherently safer you would laugh at me.


And now, you can imagine very easily how the CTC members likely also share such attributes as fitness, conditioned reflexes, hyper-vigilance, awareness and understanding about how traffic flows.

So now, we can suspect that it is these attributes that are a causative factor, or we can credit something else, namely VC riding techniques.

Have you heard of Occam's razor? ;)

I have seen bicycle messengers in operation, and I have seen films of them in operation. The levels of skill that they exhibit, and of risk they run, in their unlawful methods of operation, are far beyond that of the typical CTC member, or of a typical member of an American cycling club. I am considered to have very good bike handling skills, and the films I have seen taken from the handlebars of a messenger's bike, scare me to death. None of my associates would operate in that manner.

[Bekologist]

john, do you ride in bike lanes when that's the space on the road you should be riding?

do you ride much any more?

[John Forester]

john, do you ride in bike lanes when that's the space on the road you should be riding?

do you ride much any more?

Well, of course I do. It has been written a dozen times or more that the vehicular cyclist ignores the bike-lane stripe and rides in the proper location, whatever that happens to be for the particular location and the particular traffic conditions there and the route that the cyclist intends to follow.

[Bekologist]

glad to see you admit vehicular cyclists can ride in bike lanes.

[John Forester]

glad to see you admit vehicular cyclists can ride in bike lanes.

There's no degree of admission in my statement. There's nothing to admit. There never has been any question about this, except in your own weird mind.

[Roughstuff]

I have frequently written that the cyclist who understands and practices vehicular cycling, because he understands the pattern by which traffic should operate, is well equipped to detect the motions of a vehicle that indicate that it is being driven in a non-vehicular manner. Therefore, such a cyclist is more able to take evasive action than is a person who, not understanding how traffic should operate, does not detect the non-vehicular operation until much later.

Nice topic and nice spin on the VC moniker. Vigilance requires that the cyclist be alert, fully aware of the road (through rear view mirrors of whatever type you prefer), and able to anticipate and respond to actions by motor vehicles. What a nice alternative view to the endless barking about "share the road" and "we are traffic."

roughstuff

[SingingSabre]

Variable Chicanery

[Bekologist]

glad to see you admit vehicular cyclists can ride in bike lanes.

It has been written a dozen times or more that the vehicular cyclist ignores the bike-lane stripe and rides in the proper location, whatever that happens to be for the particular location and the particular traffic conditions there and the route that the cyclist intends to follow.......There's no degree of admission in my statement. There's nothing to admit. There never has been any question about this, except in your own weird mind.

john, john.

weather you insist in dodging the reality of vehicular cyclists by pretending to ignore bike lane striping; if a bicyclist is riding in the space demarcated by a bike lane; THAT BICYCLIST IS RIDING IN THE BIKE LANE.

sometimes, depending on traffic and road conditions, it IS expedient for a bicyclist to be positioned in the bike lane.

Vehicular cyclists can ride, vehicularily, in the bike lane.

you are agreeing by your dodge.

[John Forester]

john, john.

weather you insist in dodging the reality of vehicular cyclists by pretending to ignore bike lane striping; if a bicyclist is riding in the space demarcated by a bike lane; THAT BICYCLIST IS RIDING IN THE BIKE LANE.

sometimes, depending on traffic and road conditions, it IS expedient for a bicyclist to be positioned in the bike lane.

Vehicular cyclists can ride, vehicularily, in the bike lane.

you are agreeing by your dodge.

The twisting and turnings of your warped mind absolutely puzzle me. I don't understand what point you are making, though I have some clue as to the point that you think you are making. However, the dominant information transmitted by your statements is that your mind works in very peculiar ways.

[RobertHurst]

I have seen bicycle messengers in operation, and I have seen films of them in operation. The levels of skill that they exhibit, and of risk they run, in their unlawful methods of operation, are far beyond that of the typical CTC member, or of a typical member of an American cycling club. I am considered to have very good bike handling skills, and the films I have seen taken from the handlebars of a messenger's bike, scare me to death. None of my associates would operate in that manner.

The messenger videos out there are almost all of the informal yet occasionally intense races (popularly known as 'alleycats'), which tend to involve various levels of intoxication and the type of risk-taking that does not often occur during business hours. The only video I've seen of actual messenger work was created by a co-worker of mine, and even his video contains race footage and general fooling around with riders who know they're being filmed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1J9UDhDXQQ&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eeleventooth%2Ecom%2Fvideo%5Flloc%2Ehtml The presence of a helmet cam has a profound effect. Video of nothing but regular messenger activity would be pretty boring I imagine. Veteran messengers are among the most conservative riders out there. While they run lights and break various laws they do it in a very conservative fashion, for the most part.

Robert

[Bekologist]

dodger, john, dodger.

vehicular cyclists can ride in bike lanes, vehicularily.

agree?

[John Forester]

dodger, john, dodger.

vehicular cyclists can ride in bike lanes, vehicularily.

agree?

I fail to understand why you consider this to be dodging. There never has been any issue of this kind.

[Bekologist]

do you agree? vehicular bicyclists can ride in a bike lane, vehicularily. yes or no?

since bicyclists can ride in bike lanes, vehicularily, then a lot of your prattle about bike infrastructure is meaningless.

vehicular bicyclists can ride in a bike lane, vehicularily. vehicular cyclists can advocate for bike infrastructure like bike lanes on high speed arterials.

vehicular bicyclists can keep to the side of a wide lane, can ride in a bike lane vehicularily, can ride on well accomodated shoulders of high speed roads.

since these are possible, then the anti-facilities prattle is meaningless, john.

[SingingSabre]

Vile Council

[John Forester]

do you agree? vehicular bicyclists can ride in a bike lane, vehicularily. yes or no?

since bicyclists can ride in bike lanes, vehicularily, then a lot of your prattle about bike infrastructure is meaningless.

vehicular bicyclists can ride in a bike lane, vehicularily. vehicular cyclists can advocate for bike infrastructure like bike lanes on high speed arterials.

vehicular bicyclists can keep to the side of a wide lane, can ride in a bike lane vehicularily, can ride on well accomodated shoulders of high speed roads.

since these are possible, then the anti-facilities prattle is meaningless, john.

Your position, then, is that since a bike-lane stripe does not influence my cycling, my opposition to such stripes is either meaningless or without right. That is an interesting claim, indeed. Shall we turn it around, on the similar assumption that you cycle in the vehicular manner (correct me if I am wrong). Since the bike-lane stripe does not affect your cycling, then you have no right to advocate bike-lane stripes.

I've given you two choices, bekologist. You may choose to argue that you have the right to advocate bike-lane stripes because they do influence your cycling. If that's your choice, then explain the changes and the reasons for them. You may choose, instead, to argue that your right to advocate bike-lane stripes comes from some other reason. If that's your choice, then please inform us of what that reason is and why it gives you the right.

[rando]

Vociferous Conmen