General Cycling Discussion - Mobile phones - Good news!

At last, some sense begins to prevail on the mobile phone & driving issue, here in the UK at least. Today the government has announced that it will be illegal to use a hand-held phone whilst driving.

For those interested, please check out this link from the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3015610.stm (http://)

Just hope they can police this effectively.

Cheers,

Ed

In New york, it has been illegal for close to a year now. I agree with this mandate.

Here is a link to the New England Journal Medical article on that subject.
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/336/7/453

I agree as well. It is so dangerous. Maybe it should be allowed if you have a hands free kit though.

It's been illegal to drive while using a mobile in Victoria, Australia for quite a while now, I am not sure about the other states but it is probably illegal there as well. You can use a mobile however if you are using a hands free kit.

However we still see people driving all the time holding phones up to their ears so perhaps the message hasn't gone through yet.

I think it's great, but the distraction is still there if you can use the hands free kit in your car.

I think the problem is more about the distraction it creates, not about having one hand preoccupied.

Ummmm... that didn't look right. One hand preoccupied with holding a cell phone, that is.

Koff

Originally posted by Koffee Brown
I think it's great, but the distraction is still there if you can use the hands free kit in your car.

Koff

Yup, the distraction is the issue - more that the physical act of holding the phone. There are countless studies that prove this - here is just one:

It's not the phone - it's the distraction (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030623/tc_nm/tech_sweden_handsfree_dc_3)

Unfortunately, the telecommunication industry OWNS our politicians; so don't look for a solution that benefits us. I do, however, look for our trusted politicians to enact a law that requires hands-free phones in autos. Of course, this law would not be about our safety, as we know that it’s the distraction, and not the physical act of holding a phone that is the real problem. This law would be purely about the giant telecommunication industry selling us more stuff.

Also, some will argue that talking to another person that resides in one’s car is also distracting. While this is true, the distraction is nowhere near the level of talking to someone on the phone. Your mind has to work much harder when the person isn’t present. This occupies space that should be used to actually drive the car.

Yup, the distraction is the issue - more that the physical act of holding the phone
True, the NEJM article mentions the same thing, hands free setups did not decrease the risk.


....and units that allowed the hands to be free (relative risk, 5.9) offered no safety advantage over hand-held units (relative risk, 3.9; P not significant).

it's illegal in Queensland too so I'd say the law is Australia wide.

I have heard somewhere that a person talking on a mobile phone is as dangerous as a drunk driver......

and what is even worse is the people who SMS while driving.

I found myself using the cell phone way too much while I was driving. Now I just turn it off when I am in the car. I figure if it is important, they will leave me a message!

It was illegal to use anything but hands free when
I was in South Africa, it helped a bit (less accidents
caused by fumbling for phone, dialing etc.) but
yes it is the distraction factor.

Marty

Yep!. Its a step in the right direction. Anything that gets drivers concentrating on their driving gets my vote.

Gon`na be a difficult one to police though. The cops can`t be everywhere and it is easy to lay your mobile down then take up again when the police presence has passed.

We shall just have to wait and see...

While it's very true that the majority of drivers are overly distracted while using a mobile phone during driving, it's very hard to legislate (and I think improper) something that may not always hold true. Some people are perfectly capable of talking into a phone while driving. Holding a phone on the other hand may be considered to cause an obvious temporary physical impairment that would be necessary for proper operation of the vehicle. I would suggest that the use of mobile phones whether with or without a handsfree kit be treated much in the same way as use of a substance which may impair judgement. This is to say that in the event of an accident or obvious erratic/impaired actions of the driver (weaving back and forth on the road) the penalty should be the same as if the driver was under the influence because well... they were. As they say in the flying world, "In order of priority: aviate, navigate, communicate."

Originally posted by skdsl
it's illegal in Queensland too so I'd say the law is Australia wide.

Yep, been illegal in Queensland for about five years now (meaning that every other Australian state has probably had it for about 40 years - but I digress). There are still two problems:

1. It's still legal to use a "hands free" kit, which is just as bad in my view.

2. It's not properly enforced. Unfortunately, there simply aren't enough police out there to catch all the offenders (and those who do get caught are never punished severly enough to deter the others). I say, up the penalty to $1,000 on the spot and immediate confiscation of the phone!

There's no point having a law without enforcement.

I also agree with this law, and it has been illegal in West Virginia for some time now.

One thing I've always wondered about with the new laws banning cell phone use while drive (except for hands free), is what about the truck drivers who are using their CB? It's not much different from talking on a cell phone from my point of view. If it's unsafe to talk on a cell phone why is it not unsafe to talk on the radio?

Originally posted by gun-n-gal
One thing I've always wondered about with the new laws banning cell phone use while drive (except for hands free), is what about the truck drivers who are using their CB? It's not much different from talking on a cell phone from my point of view. If it's unsafe to talk on a cell phone why is it not unsafe to talk on the radio? Because a 10 - 15 second transmission is usually much less of a distraction than a 5 - 10 minute phone conversation.

I, and the other motorists of my state, have made it very clear to the legislature that we don't need them regulating the right to talk on a cell phone while driving. If the people don't want it, at least the legislators here have sense enough to listen. Just check a few opinion polls when it comes up. I think that such laws are inane and stupid. Just more and more of big brother deciding what is best for the little people.

My wife and I both use the Nokia Pro Installed car kits with the speakers so we can drive without using just the handsets. Having worked at AT&T Wireless I have been a very big proponant of the hands free method. Headsets are nice but not for driving in a car. My cell phone has voice dialing on it so I don't' have to fumble for a number when driving.

California legislature tried a couple of years ago to ban cell phone use while driving but the bill lost big time when it came time for the vote...guess all the hollywood types have the lobbies going on in Sacramento.

I have been using a bluetooth headset with my phone when riding the bike. It's nice to have, but have since just turned the phone off and kept it in my sadle bag when riding. One of the comforts I get from riding is not having to answer the phone. If it is that critical leave me a voice mail and I'll get back to you when I'm done breathing in the fresh Fresno air! :D

-Wynn

uhhhhh does this mean I should stop txting while riding? I generally only do it in the fenced off bike lane beside the motorway....

Brendon

Hmmm... I wonder if I should stop putting on makeup (okay so it was sunscreen) and reading the paper (okay so it was a route map) while riding. :D I've never answered the phone while riding. Actually, my phone supports profiles and combined with caller-ID, I can set up certain profiles to only ring from certain phone numbers. I have such a profile for when I take my phone with me while cycling and it will only ring when someone special (such as my wife) calls me because I know they'll only call if it's a dire emergency. Everyone else gets sent directly to voicemail although I do receive an entry in my call log telling me they tried to reach me.

Driving to the office this morning on the freeway, I looked over to my right and there was a woman in a brand new BMW doing 90 miles per hour with her face up close to her rear view mirror putting on her eyeliner!

I looked away for a couple of seconds and when I looked back she was halfway over in my lane still working on that makeup!! It scared me so much that I dropped my electric shaver, which, knocked the bacon roll out of my other hand. In all the confusion of trying to straighten out the car using my knees against the steering wheel, it knocked my mobile from my ear, which fell into the coffee between my legs, causing it to splash and burn BIG JIM AND THE ROUND TWINS, causing me to scream, which made me drop the cigarette out of my mouth, ruined my shirt and DISCONNECTED AN IMPORTANT CALL

WOMEN DRIVERS !!!!!!

Oh...... we were banging on about mobile phones were'nt we? Not women drivers? My bad..........

Over here in Singapore, it is illegal to use the handphone unless you are using handsfree. I guess the hands have to be on the steering wheel all the time when one is driving. It would definitely be much safer. Just imagine that there are people who would purposely try to knock you over or give you a scare when you are riding. What would be happening if these same people were using the handphone or trying to eat his burger? They simply do not bother about cyclists on the road if they try to scare us off the road, and they won't even bother to look out for any cyclists on road if they are using the handphones or putting that eyelashes on. That is dangerous.

All this kind of raises the obvious question....

What task, if any, can one perform whilst maintaining a safe level of attention to driving?

> Telephone (we pretty much have the answer here)

> Eat & drink (non alcoholic drink, obviously)

> Change cassettes & CDs, retune the radio etc.

> Read a map / newspaper / long Russian novel

> Make-up, shaving etc.

> Driving whilst tired.

> Thinking about something else...

For heaven's sake we're throwing 1 ton chunks of metal around at 70mph and are more preoccupied, for the length of a football field say, with switching over to the B-side of Phil Collins.

On the other hand, I've seen cyclists here with phones, shopping on the handlebars and even riding whilst trying to hold an umbrella! They are, however, more unlikely to do serious damage than an inattentive driver

Cheers,

Ed

Originally posted by gun-n-gal
One thing I've always wondered about with the new laws banning cell phone use while drive (except for hands free), is what about the truck drivers who are using their CB? It's not much different from talking on a cell phone from my point of view. If it's unsafe to talk on a cell phone why is it not unsafe to talk on the radio?

I concur with Raiyn

I also think truckers are better drivers than most of us four wheelers. Their testing is more rigorous than the sham we call a drivers test here in Georgia.

I disagree with banning cell phones while driving - you can't legislate common sense. There are a dozen distracting things people do while driving, and cell phone usage is just one of them. How many of us have seen drivers drive down the road reading the paper or a magazine??


Personally, I use my cell phone sparingly, and if I do use it while driving, it's to communicate information, not to shoot the breeze.

Originally posted by gun-n-gal
One thing I've always wondered about with the new laws banning cell phone use while drive (except for hands free), is what about the truck drivers who are using their CB? It's not much different from talking on a cell phone from my point of view. If it's unsafe to talk on a cell phone why is it not unsafe to talk on the radio?

I don't think that talking on a cell phone or a CB is inherently dangerious. The problem is that most folks just are not paying the proper attention to driving. If they weren't on the cell phone they would be day dreaming. The truck driver that is driving constantly knows he has devote most of his attention to driving can eat, take a sip of coffee, or talk on the CB and keep track of what's going on. If we could get the general public that concerened about driving then they could drive and answer the phone.

Joe

Originally posted by Colonel
. . . which fell into the coffee between my legs, causing it to splash and burn BIG JIM AND THE ROUND TWINS. . .

I believe this gives you sufficient reason to sue McDonalds for
4.9 million dollars.


Marty

I always thought the "driving without due care and attention" law would cover the cell phone issue.

I agree they're a distraction, but so are a couple of fighting kids in the back seat (let's not get into the spouce, or girlfriend, in the front seat as a distraction). What about those 1000 watt stereo's booming away or those terribly distracting, contraversial, radio talk shows? Isn't using a standard transmission much more of a distraction than using an automatic transmission?

The reality that enforcement will be dim and the fact that many turn unproductive time in a car into productive, money making time, make me think the phones in the cars are here to stay.

Originally posted by closetbiker
I always thought the "driving without due care and attention" law would cover the cell phone issue.

I agree... enforce the laws which are already present. I do however think that mobile phone usage should be taken into account during an accident investigation and the driver could be held accountable for using the phone as if they were under the influence. I wouldn't say it should be an automatic thing but definately looked into more and discerned as a higher "contributing factour" with stiffer penalties than currently.

Originally posted by The Terminator
If the people don't want it, at least the legislators here have sense enough to listen.

I don't want to be taxed either, but I think that we both agree that it's a good idea.

When a relative or a friend gets injured or killed by a cell phone wielding driver, I'll bet that you'll change your mind. Sorry to be so blunt, but I've been almost taken out by these mindless "drivers" too many times to count. Be responsible, and pull over if you really need to speak on the phone.

In other words, don't put my life @ risk for your convenience.

khuon

Right on! But then some folks say you are waiting for an accident to happen when you could be preventing it. I still agree with you though. Use of a cell phone while involved in an accident should be looked at as a possible cause.

Joe

Originally posted by joeprim
khuon

Right on! But then some folks say you are waiting for an accident to happen when you could be preventing it. I still agree with you though. Use of a cell phone while involved in an accident should be looked at as a possible cause.

Joe

this would probably be the best compromise for all parties.

its funny how people always blame something other than themselves... a good, careful driver will drive well even when on a cell phone because driving is the priority, not the cell phone. a careless, unskilled driver doesn't need to be on a cell phone to be a hazard to commute. those who do not take driving seriously don't deserve to drive, stop blaming the cell phones, the makeup, the food, the papers... just like how smoking causes cancer... well then don't smoke! it really isn't that hard to quit. if you don't think you can handle talking on a cell phone while talking, then either don't talk or don't drive.

Originally posted by tFUnK
its funny how people always blame something other than themselves...

driving without due care and attention puts the blame on someones actions, not the device.

Originally posted by tFUnK
its funny how people always blame something other than themselves... a good, careful driver will drive well even when on a cell phone because driving is the priority, not the cell phone. a careless, unskilled driver doesn't need to be on a cell phone to be a hazard to commute. those who do not take driving seriously don't deserve to drive, stop blaming the cell phones, the makeup, the food, the papers... just like how smoking causes cancer... well then don't smoke! it really isn't that hard to quit. if you don't think you can handle talking on a cell phone while talking, then either don't talk or don't drive.

I agree 100%. However, I don't trust the drivers to police themselves as to who can handle a cell while driving and who cannot.

Do you??

Originally posted by Markedoc
There are a dozen distracting things people do while driving, and cell phone usage is just one of them. How many of us have seen drivers drive down the road reading the paper or a magazine??

So ban them too, and beef up the police force just to make a bird of it.


Originally posted by tFUnK

its funny how people always blame something other than themselves... a good, careful driver will drive well even when on a cell phone because driving is the priority, not the cell phone

But what percentage of the population fit the description of good careful drivers? Around here it's less than 5%. And who decides who is a "good careful driver" and who isn't? Given the types of people who can get a driver's license, I'd say that nobody does at present.

My issue with cell phones has never been that somebody might injure themselves while using them. On the contrary, I'm all for Darwinism. My issue with them has always been that they're likely to take someone else out while they do it. And I think it flies in the face of any kind of free society or democratic principles to allow people to put others lives at risk so carelessly.

Other ways you can get into trouble with a mobile phone...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=857&ncid=757&e=10&u=/nm/20030626/od_uk_nm/oukoe_odd_finland_phone

... and ways they can be helpful... sorta...

http://www.wftv.com/news/2292846/detail.html

Originally posted by bac
I don't want to be taxed either, but I think that we both agree that it's a good idea.

When a relative or a friend gets injured or killed by a cell phone wielding driver, I'll bet that you'll change your mind. Sorry to be so blunt, but I've been almost taken out by these mindless "drivers" too many times to count. Be responsible, and pull over if you really need to speak on the phone.

In other words, don't put my life @ risk for your convenience.

That is the good thing about living in the US. You are free to live in a state where the plurality want restrictive cell phone laws. I am free to live in a state where the plurality does not want such laws. Just like guns, people always blame the gun for what the person does with it. Ditto for a cell phone. People hold the inanimate object responsible for the behavior of the person wielding it. I can agree with you that some people have absolutely no business trying to talk while driving. However, I still don't need .gov to make even one more intrusion in my life as to what I can and cannot do. I don's subscribe to the "because you will kill somebody with it" syndrome that .gov likes to use to regulate every little detail of our lives.

The distracted driver statute that was passed long ago in South Carolina has held up in court as a ban on cell phone handset usage. There is a big "but", the arresting officer has to show how mush the driver was distracted.

a lot of it depends on how your city is like, though. i live in the suburbs, and for me i see no sense in banning cell phones while driving, it's not distracting at all, plus i'm more likely to run into a tree than to damage or cause an injury. in the suburbs there are virtually no bikers nor pedestrians. but then again i go to school in a city/urban area, where i am not a driver but a pedestrian. my views are different as i can only imagine what it'd be like to navigate a vehicle in an urban setting. but point is, this ban will affect everybody, not just in the urban areas or areas where it's a problem. that's what pisses me off.

Although I agree with the banning of cell phone use whilst driving. A disturbing and sinister item almost simultaniase with the M`bile phone legistation news as "Ed" has not pertained to , was the anouncement by "Blunkett" of the freedom to smoke "Cannibas" in a limited quantity without the threat from prosecution.

I find this as disturbing as dropping the drink driving law,.

Having not partaken of this and any other form of so called "designer drugs" I am no expert on the affects of smoking such.

But in future I shall be wary of anyone with a weed between their lips whilst driving, unsure as to whether this might not be a normal tobacco cigerette or some swamp-head seriously spaced out.....

Originally posted by tFUnK
in the suburbs there are virtually no bikers nor pedestrians.

You must live in the only city in the world where that is the case.


Originally posted by tFUnK
but point is, this ban will affect everybody, not just in the urban areas or areas where it's a problem. that's what pisses me off.

Given that the effect is a very small one (i.e. having to pull over to the side of the road for 30 seconds to talk on the phone when it rings), I hardly think this is any justification for complaint. A far bigger effect is being run over by some tosser who was too busy blabbing on with some deep and meaningful conversation along the lines of "yeah I'm driving down the street" to watch what they were actually doing. I know which of the two 'effects' I'd rather be subjected to.


Originally posted by tFUnK
i see no sense in banning cell phones while driving, it's not distracting at all, plus i'm more likely to run into a tree than to damage or cause an injury.

This in the same post as....


Originally posted by tFUnK
but then again i go to school in a city/urban area, where i am not a driver but a pedestrian.

... leads me to seriously question the "it's not distracting at all" conclusion.

Originally posted by Chris L
So ban them too, and beef up the police force just to make a bird of it.



Really Chris? That kind of thinking can lead to a police state. I'm much more afraid of governments than inattentive drivers.

If you look at the 20th century more people were killed by their own government than any other cause.

Joe

Originally posted by Chris L
So ban them too, and beef up the police force just to make a bird of it.

Okay, then on that note, we need to ban all reading materials from a vehicle. No maps. No operator's manuals. You're not allowed to print out driving directions from MapQuest and take it with you. What? you have tickets to a play or a flight? Better be e-tickets or something.

I have almost been hit head on by cyclists trying to take a drink from their water bottle while riding. Shall we ban water bottles too?

Simply banning mobile phones is grabbing for the lowest dangling fruit. Once you've done that, there will always be more fruit to dangle in its place. Where does it stop? See how ludicrous this can all become?

I agree when you say that there are other things that can distract you while driving, (nobody has mention big signs with colorfull adds on highways), but for some reason your brain diverts more of your senses and attention when you get into a conversation with other person over a phone. I had saw people moving their heads, wayving their arms, shouting, getting angry, laughing and each and every time getting their eyesights out of the road ahead. It something at the unconsuis level.

Trust me is completly different and IMHO it should be banned no matter if you are driving in a big or small city.

Originally posted by joeprim
If you look at the 20th century more people were killed by their own government than any other cause.

I would dispute that. I was under the impression that more people were killed by automobiles than any other cause. Do you have any statistics on this?


Originally posted by khuon
Okay, then on that note, we need to ban all reading materials from a vehicle. No maps. No operator's manuals. You're not allowed to print out driving directions from MapQuest and take it with you. What? you have tickets to a play or a flight? Better be e-tickets or something.

I have almost been hit head on by cyclists trying to take a drink from their water bottle while riding. Shall we ban water bottles too?

Simply banning mobile phones is grabbing for the lowest dangling fruit. Once you've done that, there will always be more fruit to dangle in its place. Where does it stop? See how ludicrous this can all become?

You may wish to take the time to read what the law actually says. It does not say that you cannot have your mobile phone in your car, it simply says that you should pull off the road and stop driving if you wish to talk on it. Why not also stop to look at your map, too (something I do in cycle tours so I can have a good look at it)? Or look at your airline tickets or read your newspaper or whatever? It's hardly a ludicrous expectation or a major inconvenience.

Originally posted by Chris L

You may wish to take the time to read what the law actually says. It does not say that you cannot have your mobile phone in your car, it simply says that you should pull off the road and stop driving if you wish to talk on it.

I know what the law says. I still submit that it is indescriminantly penalising folks who are perfectly capable of carrying on a conversation over a mobile phone while driving. It also attempts to solve the problem by adressing a symptom and not the cause. The cause is that there are individuals who are incapable of task management. Simply removing the phone from the equation does not lessen the impact as there will always be something else to distract that individual. Ban this... ban that and in their defense, they will just claim that they were not doing anything illegal when they swerve into you because they were daydreaming... "It was not my fault... I was paying attention... I wasn't even using a mobile while driving!" Some may claim that banning phone operation while driving is a start but it's a start down a road without end. The ultimate solution is to test against a driver's ability to multitask and if they fail then they lose the priviledge to drive. Crisis and task management skills are taught in other forms of vehicular operation with great effect.

Originally posted by khuon
The ultimate solution is to test against a driver's ability to multitask and if they fail then they lose the priviledge to drive. Crisis and task management skills are taught in other forms of vehicular operation with great effect.

I agree. However, we need to be mindful of the scale of this issue. If you banned people who couldn't do two things at once from driving, around here at least, you'd be removing more than 90% of drivers from the road. Heck, I remember a quote from a local driving instructor claiming that 90% of people around here can't even manage to do one thing at a time.

The problem is the perception of driving as a right, rather than a privilege. However, while ever this perception continues to exist, we are simply not going to get a perfect solution to this problem. That being the case, I'll make do with the next best thing.

Chris

I have seen statistics on people killed by their government (Hitler, Stalin, ...) and cars and other causes. I don't have them handy but the next time I find them I'll send them to you.

I think if we raised the required skill level to get a drivers license it would show that is was important and people would pay more attention when they frove. I believe that people could learn to do it right. They don't because they don't have too.

Joe