Fifty Plus (50+) - Clipless and efficency

I am not interested in riding harder but I am interested in riding easier. I am wondering if anyone has any information about how much efficency you gain by using clipless system. Just to make sure that we are in agreement about what efficiency is. To me efficency is defined as my body putting out 150 watts and 140 watts going to the rear wheel of the bike as opposed to me putting out 150 watts and 100 watts going to the rear wheel of the bike.

If clipless systems will allow me to increase my bodys output from 150 watts to 170 watts because I can pull up on the pedals and therefore get more power out of each pedal stroke, then this is not the kind of efficency I am looking for.

If anyone has any links to information about this please give them to me.

I am hoping that with the clipless system some of the muscles, that are having to work to stabilize the legs on a platform pedal, can be relaxed and therfore save energy and increase efficiency. But I sure would like to see some scientific data about how clipless pedals save energy while riding.

If this has already been answered in previous post, I apologize for asking it again. I did search for it and came up empty or really with so many hits that I could not sort through all the information. Maybe I need to know how to use the search function better. So any help on the search system would be appreciated also.

Check this out...http://www.computrainer.com/html/coaching_corner/dynbikefit-example.html

It does not directly address your question. I think one can see that without clipless pedals, it is impossible to achieve contant torque as discussed and measured by the trainer / computer. I saw a presentation of this system with a pro cyclist on the trainer and she got pretty close to perfect pedal stroke.

Edit: Bike fit and good pedal technique is an area that IMHO the 50+ gang can get a lot of bang for the buck and potentially reduce pain and fatigue. Loss of flexibility and and other problems of aging can be handled by repositioning and adjustments on the bike/ type of bike. The key is to find a service / guru that knows what they are doing. One may be able to get this at an LBS or NOT.

I seem to be nearly alone in my non-fascination with clipless pedals. I've tried two different setups several times on roads I ride often, and I've found no difference in time, speed or perceived effort.
That's the short version. Here's the long one: I've done the 25-mile round-trip commute to the same office regularly since 1981--hundreds of rides, if not thousands. For years, I rode in toe clips and what used to be called "touring" shoes, and I had a really good idea of my average time and speed, as well as how I felt coming back uphill, usually into the wind.
When clipless came along, I got some shoes and pedals and rode that way for awhile, did the mandatory falls before I learned to get out of them etc--but they didn't seem to make a difference in efficiency or speed, and the clipless pedals limited me to cycling shoes. I couldn't ride to lunch or out for coffee in my street clothes.
I've gone back and forth many times, trying Looks and SPDs on three different road bikes and two mountain bikes, and I just don't see a significant difference, certainly not enough to justify the cost of tossing usable shoes and decent-quality platform pedals and buying all new stuff. Right now I have toe clips on the Atlantis, which I ride to work, and clipless on the Rambouillet, which I use for longer rides, day trips and stuff. As far as I can tell, there's no difference.
The notion that you'll pull up on the pedals with clipless is probably bogus, by the way. There have been several studies done using strain gauges to see how people really pedal, and almost nobody actually pedals all the way around in a circle for more than a few seconds at a time. Certainly if you're comfortable with clipless and like the feel, they're fine, but don't expect a big improvement.

Hello Jim

I don't really have any objective answer to your question, and I think that you're looking for more of a scientific than subjective answer - but all the same

I'm a fairly retro, tourist type cyclist, and a latecomer to clipless pedals on my 1995 tandem and 1990 solo.

What I have felt, though, is whenever I tell myself "stop pushing, start pulling" my bike goes faster and my quads stop burning.

Used to do the same with clips and straps - but to a lesser extent

Just offered for what it's worth - maybe nothing!

This is a topic that folks will argue about forever. Clipless pedals are only part of the equation. If you go clipless, then develop an efficient pedaling stroke to go with it, then yes, you will be more efficient (How much more efficient is hotly debated). If you do clipless but keep the same pedaling stroke you have now, then you won't gain much.

You also involve more muscles in your pedaling with an efficient clipless pedal stroke. That's especially advantageous for recumbent riders like me, since we can't change positions and thereby recruit as many different muscles for pedaling as an upright rider can.

Give 'em a try.

If you like them, use them all the time.

If you don't, then bag them.

That's really all we can do for you around here.

As for me---going clipless was one of the best upgrades I have done. Yep---did the falling thing. In fact fell again this week and I have been riding clipless for over a year (Just takes a momements inattention). But that aside---I feel as though I pedal much more efficientlly clipless. I kept arguing that my toe clips were just as good as clipless until I tried clipless. I was wrong. Each to their own however.

After riding clips for years, I've been clipless for the last 3 years--I'd never go back. Clipless allows me to more effectively push through the top and (especially)pull through the bottom of the pedal stroke, which gets me a few extra RPM when I remember to do it (still trying to get to the point where it's automatic). It's really a matter of being able to apply power through as many degrees of the pedal stroke as possible--for me clipless makes it way easier.

Pulling on the up stroke means you will be putting out more effort. More energy will get to the rear wheel, but no real gain in efficliency. bk

This is a hot button in my book. It has long been my contention that the only thing foot retention does is encourage confidence, to spin like a madman, at a proper cadence, for maximum performance, in all weather, wet or dry. Having said that, I can site a reference from a book by a former trainer of U.S. Team cyclists who has coached racers to more than 50 U.S. National Championships who is himself a medical doctor, a consultant to US Cycling and the USCF plus, he is a Cat 1 USCF racer and 5 time national champion. Dr. Arnie Baker states on pg. 118 of his book, on the subject of pedal stroke, he says," pulling up forces were once thought to be significant......however, re-examination of the data and subtraction of the inertial forces of the legs has shown that these forces are not as strong as was formerly believed. Elite cyclists are more effective because of their greater downward forces, rather than because they unweight their pedals or pull up more than recreational cyclists."

I believe the only benefit to pulling up with retention is, it rests your muscles slightly and at the same time allows your feet to stay on the pedals. Of course the same thing can be done without attachment by just slightly lifting the upward traveling leg but thats not something you do in a race.
For recreational cyclists, clip in retention is hardly neccessary and good foot retention can be accomplished by other methods without the drawbacks of clip ins or simply by using wider platform pedals with traction and regular shoes with a softer sole. This combo actually for me has proven to be supremely comfortable as I use sandals and my toes are free to wiggle around, keeping my feet from going numb. The wide pedal surface area lowers psi and you get no hot spots or pressure points. This is simular to walking on flat ground as opposed to walking on the edge of a narrow rail. It also dispences with the need for overly stiff shoes since the pedal is wide enough to spread the load. Of course this approach doesn't sell shoes and pedals so its not popular and for those with $$$ invested in clip ins they won't want to admit to having purchased or promoted a solution to a non existant problem. :rolleyes:

To each his own ultimately.

"I am not interested in riding harder but I am interested in riding easier. "

I'm also looking for this answer. I just started about a month ago to ride clipless, again, a Shimano SPD system with Nashbar two sided pedals. I had tried clipless a year ago with one sided pedals and they were a PIA to get into. Pedal always rotated to clip in side down. My near falls occurred while trying to rotate and clip in. So now I have two sided, but the left shoe remains stubborn to clip in. Will probably try SpeedPlay next. This time around I seem to like the clipless system, as I am perceiving easier riding, if only slightly. My search in the forums earlier brought out that one doesn't so much PULL up on the opposite pedal as just lift to unload weight of your foot. Ergo your power down stroke is 100% applied to moving bike and not some of it lifting your opposite foot. However the son in law did mention pulling with opposite leg used different muscles, so apparently some do in fact pull. All quite confusing.

Should I even mention another theory I read, I believe in road forum, regards moving cleats back to foot or shoe arch, as opposed to ball of foot. Suppose to be a slight percent gain for riders??

I think one can see that without clipless pedals, it is impossible to achieve contant torque as discussed and measured by the trainer / computer

I don't think so. What evens out your torque is not the clips or cleats, it's your brain and legs learning to pedal smoothly so that each leg complements the other. In the hypothetical diagram below you can see that even if you let your leg go somewhat limp on the upstroke, so that the other leg is both propelling the bike and lifting the opposite leg, you could have steady torque as long as the total effort of both legs adds up to the same number at every point around the pedal stroke.

My understanding is exactly how charles vail put it. And the old "scrape gum off the bottom of your shoe" technique (that you do with clipless) only hurt the knees.

In MTB clipless is pretty darn helpful to keep your feet stable when you're being tossed around. It also helps climbing, as if you don't make it up the hill, and you stall and have trouble clipping out, you will endure at least several moments of intense pain. It can be a real motivator.

It sounds backwards, but when I got used to clipless on the trails, using them on the roads was pretty easy.

In any case, you look like a real wuss without them. And you have no cajones.

Check this out...http://www.computrainer.com/html/coaching_corner/dynbikefit-example.html

It does not directly address your question. I think one can see that without clipless pedals, it is impossible to achieve contant torque as discussed and measured by the trainer / computer. I saw a presentation of this system with a pro cyclist on the trainer and she got pretty close to perfect pedal stroke.

Edit: Bike fit and good pedal technique is an area that IMHO the 50+ gang can get a lot of bang for the buck and potentially reduce pain and fatigue. Loss of flexibility and and other problems of aging can be handled by repositioning and adjustments on the bike/ type of bike. The key is to find a service / guru that knows what they are doing. One may be able to get this at an LBS or NOT.

Thanks for the link......I enjoyed reading the information and was pleased that the report supported my contention, at least partly.
The decrease in performance as the result of leg length discrepancy, while not a total surprise, was very good to read about ( I have this problem) and the concept of a smooth spin as being a key performance feature of elite cyclists, further supports my opinions. One point we differ on however is, the idea that you need to be attached to the pedals to achive full power transfer/torque in your spin. The article doesn't really support that position completely from what I can tell. I'll re-read it to be sure.

I know that for me there are times I would not be able to make it up some hills without being able to use both legs at the same time. Just going on down the road, I can't tell much difference, but on steep hills, they rock for me.

I don't think so. What evens out your torque is not the clips or cleats, it's your brain and legs learning to pedal smoothly so that each leg complements the other. In the hypothetical diagram below you can see that even if you let your leg go somewhat limp on the upstoke, so that the other leg is both propelling the bike and lifting the opposite leg, you could have steady torque as long as the total effort of both legs adds up to the same number at every point around the pedal stroke.

I see your point and agree. I have long thought that riding clipped in, makes your legs/brain lazy, when it comes to spinning smoothly and fast. I tried after using retention for a long time to ride platforms and I got nervous thinking, my feet might slip off the pedals but after a few miles I re-trained my brain/legs to "keep em on" shall we say. I can see the point about foot slippage on really rough mountain biking courses, as has been mentioned but after my testing, I still think no retention is better, as it allows uninhibited release when neccessary. If a cyclist is riding that fast, over that rough of terrain and his shocks aren't working, then maybe he should slow down! I know... I know.....this is not something adrenaline junkies want to hear. But hey! motocross racers don't clip in!

If a cyclist is riding that fast, over that rough of terrain and his shocks aren't working, then maybe he should slow down! I know... I know.....this is not something adrenaline junkies want to hear. But hey! motocross racers don't clip in!
Srongchewboy?

Srongchewboy?

It took me a couple of seconds.......but I'm
oldnfatnsmellindaroses

my site http://www.myspace.com/eccentriccyclistcharlie

I agree that there's nothing to be gained by pulling on the upstroke. Pedal stroke improvements for me are in the 11 to 1 o'clock and 5 to 7 o'clock areas of the stroke, and I think clipless is very helpful there, at least for me. Plus, my big old feet don't fit in clips very well in anything other than cycling shoes anyway, and I find clipless way easier to get into from a dead stop than clips. YMMV.

I agree that there's nothing to be gained by pulling on the upstroke. Pedal stroke improvements for me are in the 11 to 1 o'clock and 5 to 7 o'clock areas of the stroke, and I think clipless is very helpful there, at least for me. Plus, my big old feet don't fit in clips very well in anything other than cycling shoes anyway, and I find clipless way easier to get into from a dead stop than clips. YMMV.

It is in the area of the arc of pedal movement that you have to understand. without clipless- you will put power in from say 10 oclock to 5. As the foot moves out of this area- it will not be of any benefit so you learn not to pedal out of this range. In fact 10 to 5 is probably the extreme that any one can pedal. With me on clipless- I will still start at 10 but will continue round to at least 7 without thinking about it. When I do start thinking about the pedal stroke- It will be from 10 right throught to 10. In other words full circle. That does take some practice and I do this frequently but if you learn to pedal in a full circle and don't even know you are doing it- Then you can imagine the extra power that is getting to the back wheel. And once the system is learnt- The body doesn't feel it- Does not take any extra effort and the legs do not realise they are doing any extra work.

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But their motor is in a different place and doesnt put much stress on the pedals either.

Not a technical answer, but I'd have a hard time believing that pros would use a pedal system that didn't improve performance. And, while you indicated that you wanted to ride easier, would improved performance be a function of using one's power output to the greatest advantage? Hence, it would be an issue of taking the output you have and getting the most out of it.

Not a technical answer, but I'd have a hard time believing that pros would use a pedal system that didn't improve performance.

Amen.

Thanks for all the great replys and the links. From what I am reading there is not much increase in efficiency to be had by going from platforms to clipless. It seems that the riding style and the terain may be the best argument for going clipless. In my case I ride on smooth surfaces and do not race so I can slow down for the occasional rough spots. A racer would not have this luxury and therefore would need the clipless system to keep his feet on the pedals.

If I could pick up a 10% increase in efficiency I would probably go with the clipless system but since I ride for exercise maybe I would be cheating myself out of a good workout. I know that the clipless system has some great advantages for many riders but for my relaxed riding I would probably have a hard time getting much use out of their advantages. Maybe one day I can get in good enough shape to justify the clipless system and then I can ride with some of the groups around here that don't want to ride slower than 18 mph.

For me it is comfort and confidence. I just feel better with clipless. I started out with platforms, went to cages, and then clipless. I have the least knee pain with the properly adjusted clipless. That lack of pain is very important to me. I don't care about the potential efficiency increase. I just want comfort.

When I do start thinking about the pedal stroke- It will be from 10 right throught to 10. In other words full circle. That does take some practice and I do this frequently but if you learn to pedal in a full circle and don't even know you are doing it- Then you can imagine the extra power that is getting to the back wheel. And once the system is learnt- The body doesn't feel it- Does not take any extra effort and the legs do not realise they are doing any extra work.
I'll look for the link but I'm pretty sure the research doesn't support you: elite cyclists do very little pulling up.

EDIT...never mind, charles vail produced a good reference in an earlier post.

I'd have a hard time believing that pros would use a pedal system that didn't improve performance.

Sure, but the pros would use it even if it provided only 0.05% increased efficiency or reduced the likelihood of slipping off the pedal by only 0.01%. The advantages are probably much smaller than many people assume, and aren't necessarily realized by all cyclists.

Don't like clipless? Don't wear 'em.

Nuff said.

Sure, but the pros would use it even if it provided only 0.05% increased efficiency or reduced the likelihood of slipping off the pedal by only 0.01%. The advantages are probably much smaller than many people assume, and aren't necessarily realized by all cyclists.


Any advantage is an advantage. It is likely the combination of many very small advantages that add up and make the ride "easier".

This thread is timely for me. I just installed PowerGrips on my pedals this week. Got my feet into them nice and snug. Almost no wiggle room, so while these aren't clipless, I can't see how clipless could have hardly any more effect.

Have ridden on them twice, and didn't notice any difference at all in terms of effort. They did keep my feet in good position, and I don't always do that.

I'll keep them on for a while, but may be eyeing some of those nice, wide cruiser pedals I spotted the other day.

There was a similar thread on this and someone posted a chart that showed which muscle groups used in each part of the pedal stroke. Very little energy used during the back part of the motion.

I'll look for the link but I'm pretty sure the research doesn't support you: elite cyclists do very little pulling up.

EDIT...never mind, charles vail produced a good reference in an earlier post.


Even I have to work and think at pedalling in a full circle but in normal riding, I am pushing and pulling for 75% of that crank movement. That is just the natural pedalling stroke that I have got into and if you talk to clipless riders- you will probably find they are about the same.

That 100% circle does come in very handy on the steep sit down hills that just go on and on and on and...
Then I get to the very steep parts and it all goes out of the window as it is out of the saddle and struggle with the down stroke only.

I am not saying that pedalling on the upstroke is more efficient or faster or easy. All I know is that at the end of a long ride-my legs are not the bit of my body that hurts.
As to the efficiency- I know that if I am not using a clipless pedal- then I will be using leg power that will not be getting to the back wheel.

Even though I am a recreational rider, I do enjoy riding fast and have lots of hills and mountains to deal with on any ride. in an effort to minimize pain and increase efficiency, I paid for a pro fitting that included finding my body flexibility, better than many crit racers half my age, and with some magic formula, know where everything should be, incluing cleat position. This fitting was good for a speed increase and had the desired effect of reducing pain.

During the fit/coaching session the discussion touched on pedal technique. From my recumbent riding, with a great deal of recline, I did develop a pull that was more than enough to feel pressure on the top of the shoe, but I was never able to get that degree of pull while riding the Trek. He told me, circa three years ago, that the current spin training was to "kick forward" at the top and "scrap mud" off the bottom of the circle, don't think about pushing down or pulling up.

I found that changing my thoughts about how to apply the power had the effect of increasing my spin by 5-10 rpm, but more of interest to this thread, on a long hard grind, if I concentrated on that, to the exclusion of the usual downward push, I gained 1-1.5 mph over just pushing. He said they had data of pros on trainers with infrared film showing where the muscles were working to support this, but even if not true, I have a result I like, and others I've told about this confirm the increase in climbing speed.

Also, in favor of clipless and speed, I've hit bad spots in the pavement that lifted me off the saddle. I came back down right where I was because my feet were attached.

When I ride a bike w/o clipless, my feet slide off, usually on the bottom of the stroke. While I've not tried soft soled shoes and pedals with teeth to grip, I can't imagine that that combo would hold me to the bike on a 30+ mph descent.

I've found that it's not so much the pulling up but the "ankling," i.e. pushing over the top when I remember to do it that makes 1-2mph difference. Efficiency boils down to good pedalling action and is probably independent of clips or clipless pedals.

This is a hot button in my book. It has long been my contention that the only thing foot retention does is encourage confidence, to spin like a madman, at a proper cadence, for maximum performance, in all weather, wet or dry. Having said that, I can site a reference from a book by a former trainer of U.S. Team cyclists who has coached racers to more than 50 U.S. National Championships who is himself a medical doctor, a consultant to US Cycling and the USCF plus, he is a Cat 1 USCF racer and 5 time national champion. Dr. Arnie Baker states on pg. 118 of his book, on the subject of pedal stroke, he says," pulling up forces were once thought to be significant......however, re-examination of the data and subtraction of the inertial forces of the legs has shown that these forces are not as strong as was formerly believed. Elite cyclists are more effective because of their greater downward forces, rather than because they unweight their pedals or pull up more than recreational cyclists."

I believe the only benefit to pulling up with retention is, it rests your muscles slightly and at the same time allows your feet to stay on the pedals. Of course the same thing can be done without attachment by just slightly lifting the upward traveling leg but thats not something you do in a race.
For recreational cyclists, clip in retention is hardly neccessary and good foot retention can be accomplished by other methods without the drawbacks of clip ins or simply by using wider platform pedals with traction and regular shoes with a softer sole. This combo actually for me has proven to be supremely comfortable as I use sandals and my toes are free to wiggle around, keeping my feet from going numb. The wide pedal surface area lowers psi and you get no hot spots or pressure points. This is simular to walking on flat ground as opposed to walking on the edge of a narrow rail. It also dispences with the need for overly stiff shoes since the pedal is wide enough to spread the load. Of course this approach doesn't sell shoes and pedals so its not popular and for those with $$$ invested in clip ins they won't want to admit to having purchased or promoted a solution to a non existant problem. :rolleyes:

To each his own ultimately.

I trust the reference above because of his credentials as a real racing coach, physician and winning Cat 1 racer. Racers use what they get paid to use because sponsors want to sell products. Clip in pedals and shoes allow real racers to pedal hard and fast over rough roads with less concern for keeping their feet on the pedals. While fine for racing, these features don't translate to convenience to non racing cyclists especially when you consider the small performance gains. In a racing scenario, any gain can mean the difference between winning and losing. For the rest of us, a few seconds difference over many miles does nothing but support our fantasies. :rolleyes:

The larger picture I am trying to present, is the fact that, cycling doesn't require all the specialized, expensive and inconvenient gear to enjoy it. Further, a versatile set up that allows walking and ease of use coupled with low cost and flexability in use is better for most of us. Looking less like a comic book super hero and being able to do other things, off the bike, rank pretty high in my book too.

A link to a different approach to cycling
http://ramblings.cyclofiend.com/?cat=10

Let it go, boys.

Let it go.

Looking less like a comic book super hero and being able to do other things, off the bike, rank pretty high in my book too.

A link to a different approach to cycling
http://ramblings.cyclofiend.com/?cat=10

I get your point. I just don't see why you have to use perjorative language (comic book super hero) to make it. If you don't like the stuff, don't use it. Why try to elevate yourself by putting down others? I don't see the point of that.

I've found that it's not so much the pulling up but the "ankling," i.e. pushing over the top when I remember to do it that makes 1-2mph difference.

That't not really ankling. Ankling is when you lift the front of the foot at the top and drop it at the bottom so your ankle flexes and extends with every stroke. It has long been discredited.
http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_an-z.html#ankling
http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/ankling.html

Let it go, boys.

Let it go.

Agree. You either ride clipless or you don't. The choice is yours.

Looking less like a comic book super hero and being able to do other things, off the bike, rank pretty high in my book too.


I like comic book super heros. For some reason I loved Green Lantern growing up. I don't know why. I think it would be cool to have a kit that made me look like him. I don't take it personal.

I wonder if Spider Man goes clipless. Considering his climbing efficiency and his speed, I'm thinking that he surely must. I can't imagine Spider Man using pedals. And if he did, Kirsten Dunst would be wise to dump him.

:love:

As they say around here, 'I don't have a dog in this fight' but I will say that if a person wants to ride clipless and wants to increase efficiency a local guy might have the answer.

He does group rides with one foot clipped in for about half the ride (10-12 miles) and then uses the other foot for the rest of the ride. He also appears to have about 1% body fat and looks like the cover of an anatomy text.

As for me, my knees are sooooo bad that I'm afraid to even try clipless. If I fell, and was clipped in, it would possibly mean a TKR (Total Knee Replacement).

My $.02. I've ridden platforms w/out retention of any type, platforms w/ clips, straps & flat shoes , the same with cleated bike shoes & clipless. I have no scientific proof, but I have to believe retention is more efficient than no retention. I also think clipless is more efficient than clips & cleated shoes, but the main advantage is comfort. Pulling the straps tight enough was just uncomfortable especially on long rides. Now, my livelihood does not depend on whatever efficiency gains (if any!) I get from using clipless over no retention, so it really comes down to what's more fun. I don't commute and rarely stop when I ride, so for me clipless is the way to go. I feel a much better connection to the bike than w/out retention. If I was commuting or riding to Star$s I might have a different answer.

Dan

I just read this entire thread, I greatly appreciate the non-biased opinions and responses.
One thing I think most agree on is those "Clips" or cages on the pedals are not real good.

The clipless units seem to be a little more efficient, with some learning, can keep the foot on the pedal in those heated moments.
On the down side, folks like me who ride with anything from steel toed work boot to sandals kinda rules them out on my cargo bike. Not to mention the added cost$$$$$.
On the dirt I got my own ideas.
But when I get my road bike I want for a year now, I just may put clipless pedals on it and MTB shoes.

I do have a concern, I have tried clipless, pros/cons bla bla bla, but whats this talk about knee pain?
I ride because the doc told me to for my knees, will clipless pedals affect that?

He does group rides with one foot clipped in for about half the ride (10-12 miles) and then uses the other foot for the rest of the ride. He also appears to have about 1% body fat and looks like the cover of an anatomy text.

That's a quirky way to ride but it offers no insight on the efficiency of clipless. Maybe he has 1% body fat because his riding style is so inefficient that he burns off way more calories than the rest of you.

I ride because the doc told me to for my knees, will clipless pedals affect that?
Sometime pedals are set up so your foot is at a slightly uncomfortable angle, and over a long ride that can cause knee discomfort. However if you adjust the cleats to the right angle, and if your cleats and pedals allow some "float" (at little looseness so you can adjust the tilt of your foot) you should be okay. Also try to use the lowest gear and highest pedalling cadence you are comfortable with ("spinning"). That is better for your knees than pedalling hard in a high gear ("mashing"). There's also a claim that shorter cranks are better for your knees, since you can still have the same leg extension at the bottom, but don't have to bring your knees as high at the top.

I sure use em on my bent, more to keep my feet on the pedals which is more important in a bent position than an upright.
Thinking about though, I think it does increase my power a bit, the powerstroke being from about 10 to about 5. But maybe all it does is increase the inertia of my legs and reduce drag for the other leg, but even with only that as a helping factor think they help come end of the day.

I appreciate the information shared here that questions the standard assumptions about clipless pedals. As a long-time researcher, and audiophile, I have participated in many experiments have disproven common assumptions. With many of the believers in those assumptions refusing to accept the proof, even if they have no viable counterargument. I'm of the mindset that everything should be questioned ... and then questioned again. Drives my wife crazy.

As this subject intrigues me, I will keep poking around for more data. I love doing that ... it is one of my favorite hobbies.

I could see how the equation could vary significantly for a bent, especially one where the BB is above the seating position.

Here's an interesting read, a report from the Cycling Science Symposium & Expo. Several things in it, including a session on "private numbness."

At this symposium, an expert bike fitter did say that clipless pedals helped his business because it locked in cyclists to riding for extended periods in a fixed, repetitive position. This increased injuries unless one had a very good fit. They didn't address the pedaling efficiency issue.

http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/articles/11555.0.html

To me efficency is defined as my body putting out 150 watts and 140 watts going to the rear wheel of the bike as opposed to me putting out 150 watts and 100 watts going to the rear wheel of the bike.

Think about your feet on the pedals.

With no retention system, you have to maintain light pressure on the pedal as it comes up the back side or the circle in order to maintain contact between your foot and the pedal. That's "wattage" that you have to put out that's actually working against you. Forget about pulling up on the backside, just think about being able to push down less hard on the backside.

Mini toe clips are a little bit of help. Toe clips and straps are better, but your feet can still "escape" from time to time. Clipless pedals systems work better.

I ride clipless on all my bikes, and have done so since the early 1990's... I have a 'beater' bike that I decided to install "campus" pedals on--so I could ride it in street shoes. Yes, it works, but I am so used to riding clipless that I found my feet coming off the pedals (and scraping my shin)-- I still have the campus pedals on the bike, but I tend to ride it with the biking shoes (mnost of the time), so I can clip in... I think it is a matter of personal preference, but having gone through the whole gambit over the years-- I had clips and cleats, which I thought were az great improvement over platforms, then went to the first generation Look pedals in the late 80's... Then spds for the mountain bike and commuter-- newer generation Looks on my road bike-- I won't go back-

train safe-