Folding Bikes - Internal Gears; Rohloff competition finally available

From the commuter forum (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=281858)

How do I know if I can install this (http://cgi.ebay.com/NuVinci-CVP-Model-N170S-Gear-ratio-is-350-Bicycle-hub_W0QQitemZ110133505688QQihZ001QQcategoryZ42320QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) into my Brompton?

I am not too sure I would want to plunk that much weight into a folder, by my best guess it would add a good 3#+ to a standard 24# folder, pushing the weight up to unmanageable for all but the strongest people. I can jack a 60# bike around with no problems, but when it comes to folders I want to keep it as light as reasonably possible to make handling easier. But it is a neat device and I can see a market for it. I may give one a shot on my Staiger when I convert to the Xtracycle/StokeMonkey configuration next year.

Aaron:)

The weight is reported as 4.2 kg (or something like that) in the thread.

How heavy is that relative to the Rohloff? Which, by the way, also has a wider gear range.

I am eyeing the NuVincy hub for a long time now. It may be heavy, but it's just the thing for commuting or touring. If I don't lose interest in a year or so, I predict I will have one.

I dunno... I don't understand what problem CVT resolves - clicking a shifter? not enough gearing? Spending $1,000 and adding 4 kgs to your bike to solve those two issues seem like a bad trade-off to me.

What's the target market for this type of product?

mmmmm ... I DO like the idea of keeping a constant favourite cadence with variable road speed ... especially when setting off around town.

But I just cant see that without any positive transmission (ie just friction into / out of balls) that the efficiency will be same as regular hub gears (which are already a bit inefficent in non-direct ratios.

But like Jur, I am fascinated, and cant wait to try it in anger, (not just in the shop).

"What's the target market for this type of product?"

Electric motorbikes.

Gears sound slippy. Love the idea but sounds a bit like the DAF belt driven auto transmission - good on paper but - hmm - in practice?!?

Raph - your sig image it teh 2 big! lolz...

I wonder, it it was made from lightweight materials, what it would come to in weight.

Problems it solves: Infinite number of gears, being able to select the exact cadence you want at any speed. The gear range is wide enough; with a 305% on my Raleigh Twenty during my recent loaded tour I could ride almost everywhere, with 350% I can get everywhere.

I have not found any numbers for efficiency on Fallbrooks' site, but if it is 97%, everything else being the same, then it easily equals or beats a typical derailer system.

But I think they would need to reduce weight if it is to find widespread appeal in the bike market. Plus they need to cross the hurdle of the current paradigm that dismisses everything that is NOT a derailer system, as well as the historical attempts at CVTs for bicycles that turned out very inefficient, because as soon as people hear CVT, they say 'been there, doesn't work' just like for shaft drives.

Plus they need to cross the hurdle of the current paradigm that dismisses everything that is NOT a derailer system...
I don't know. I can think of a thing or two I'd rather spend $1k on, and a bike hub is not one of them.

I don't know. I can think of a thing or two I'd rather spend $1k on, and a bike hub is not one of them.Same here.

There are a few on ebay as we speak for $399, if I had spare wads lying around, I'd have considered it.

I wonder about long-term performance - as the various bearings wear, does the hub begin to slip?

I don't know. I can think of a thing or two I'd rather spend $1k on, and a bike hub is not one of them.

Plenty of people are plunking down $1400+ for the Rohlhoff hubs...and IIRC the LIST price on the NuVinci is around $450-$500 very competitive in my opinion. I will be interested to see the durability, serviceability, etc. I can see plenty of uses for it in commuting and commercial uses, and as fuel costs continue to rise I think more people will be turning to bicycles for short haul trips. FWIW I am working towards an xtracycle and the NuVinici would be a good fit for what I have in mind. I was contemplating a Rohloff but the limited availability and the price are a serious consideration.

Aaron:)

"What's the target market for this type of product?"

Electric motorbikes.

Good one.

It looks like the electric motor from Sram except that YOU have to provide the engine!

I don't like the device in it's current state but will say it might have a future if they can bring the weight down by 5 pounds (the hub weights 9 lbs). The Sturmey Archer 3 speed hub weights about 2 pounds and that is the standard. However, that might be asking for too much so if they can bring the weight down to 4lbs, it might have a future.

I also don't like the fact that you don't know what gear your're in. Spinning that shifter three complete turns to go through the entire gears would get old real fast. I like the the AW-3 and Sprinter because I always know what gear I'm in and can get there fast without having to constantly make adjustments from a friction shifter.

A 35-37 pound Brompton does not sound very attractive.

Plenty of people are plunking down $1400+ for the Rohlhoff hubs...and IIRC the LIST price on the NuVinci is around $450-$500 very competitive in my opinion.

Well, the Rolhoff gives a 526% gear range, the NuVinci gives 350%. The SRAM iMotion 9 hub gives 340%. The iMotion's basic model, with coaster brake and steel shell, weighs about half of the NuVinci, and the carbon shell freewheel version will probably be under a third. The SRAM 9-speed hub will probably retail for about half the cost of the NuVinci in the USA.

TCS

FWIW I am working towards an xtracycle and the NuVinici would be a good fit for what I have in mind. I was contemplating a Rohloff but the limited availability and the price are a serious consideration.

Aaron:)
And let me go on record saying that we're all waiting to see this build! :D :D

Stokemoney too, right?

And let me go on record saying that we're all waiting to see this build! :D :D

Stokemoney too, right?:roflmao: now that is about the truth!

Yep long term plans call for a Stokemonkey too. I have a Staiger with aluminum frame, 700c wheels that is currently set up as a city bike with 21 speed dérailleur system on it. It already has the Nexus generator hub so that is one less thing to worry about. It will get built up in stages as funds allow. First round will be the Free Radical, then the rear wheel with whatever hub gets chosen, then the Stoke Monkey. It is going to become a replacement for my pickup truck;) if you call using a bicycle a replacement for a F350 crew cab dually:eek:

Aaron:)

Well, the Rolhoff gives a 526% gear range, the NuVinci gives 350%. The SRAM iMotion 9 hub gives 340%.... The SRAM 9-speed hub will probably retail for about half the cost of the NuVinci in the USA.
+1, I do not see the NuVinci as comparable to the Ripoff -- err, Rohloff. ;)

CVT seems like a neat concept, and I'm sure it has some good uses somewhere. But when it comes to cycling, I don't see the benefit. After all, to get a consistent cadence I'd have to micro-manage my gearing, and why do I want to be bothered with that -- especially when commuting or touring? For both those applications, I'd rather concentrate on my surroundings than on my shifter.

:roflmao: now that is about the truth!
Where's that freudian slip icon. :o (Don't tell Todd. :D )

Rohloff is the best gear on the world and the are nothing like this on the mark today,I own a Bike Friday NW Tourist with a Rohloff and is 1000 times better then the same bike my wife own with shimano xt 27 gear.If you have the money go for and if not save it

What is the efficiency? That's the real problem if 10% of your effort goes to heating up the oil in the hub who would want one. Can it run backwards like a fixed gear can?

+1, I do not see the NuVinci as comparable to the Ripoff -- err, Rohloff. ;)

CVT seems like a neat concept, and I'm sure it has some good uses somewhere. But when it comes to cycling, I don't see the benefit. After all, to get a consistent cadence I'd have to micro-manage my gearing, and why do I want to be bothered with that -- especially when commuting or touring? For both those applications, I'd rather concentrate on my surroundings than on my shifter.Some benefits: cheaper then Rohloff, no maintenance, shifting without any hassle (even standing still), always the right cadence.
Instead of "micro-manage your gearing and concentrating on your shifter", you simply turn the shifter a little bit if you're out of cadence. Without losing your concentration at the surroundings.

The high weight of the Du vinci might be to ensure durability in use with electric scooters or it may simply need refinement.Engineering costs money.Drop out width is 135 mm.Could this be used to convert a 6 speed derailluer Bicycle?!This could convert a sturdy 6 speed cruiser to a functional tourer just change the tires add some luggage capacity and Voila!( excusez moi Francais) If it is as good as they claim it will revolutionize the bike industry if allowed to.

I'd really like to see an independent engineering test of the performance of the hub - particularly with regard to efficiency. The 97% figure sounds incredibly good. If it is true, we will be seeing more of these when someone makes a version from lighter materials.

I'd really like to see an independent engineering test of the performance of the hub - particularly with regard to efficiency. The 97% figure sounds incredibly good. If it is true, we will be seeing more of these when someone makes a version from lighter materials.What is wrong with user reviews? Who cares about numbers? I don't care about exact efficiency numbers. I know the NuVinci is as good as a derailleur (or even better), because I own both.

Don't make a big issue of the weight. The NuVinci was introduced in 2007. They made it sturdy (and heavy) and there is only one model, so for now it can only be used in LEVs and citybikes. I'm sure there will be more (lighter) models next year.
My new NuVinci bike is heavy (24kg), but it rides as light as my former (derailleur) bike (about 20kg).

I'm sure NuVinci will be a hit (at least in Europe).

What is wrong with user reviews? Who cares about numbers? I don't care about exact efficiency numbers. I know the NuVinci is as good as a derailleur (or even better), because I own both.

Don't make a big issue of the weight. The NuVinci was introduced in 2007. They made it sturdy (and heavy) and there is only one model, so for now it can only be used in LEVs and citybikes. I'm sure there will be more (lighter) models next year.
My new NuVinci bike is heavy (24kg), but it rides as light as my former (derailleur) bike (about 20kg).

I'm sure NuVinci will be a hit (at least in Europe).

I'm not discounting your experience at all fransb. It was a very useful review. And you're right to point out your subjective experience with this excellent idea. I'm just interested in the engineering numbers, because absolute values and close control of tests are the way we evaluate things in an engineering context. I doubt that any user riding his bike around the roads would notice the difference between 97% efficiency and 92% and know it absolutely. Our own effort varies day to day as our body adapts to life, one day is more windy, one is not; sometimes the breeze is from the south, another from the east. I defy a rider to notice a few percent efficiency in his gear system and measure it like an engineering test would, and yet if we are claiming the superiority of one system over another, that few percent is important information.

On the issue of cost (and I know what I'm going to describe is a very different animal) I just checked with Anita at www.mercbike.co.uk (http://www.mercbike.co.uk) about what is included in the spare rear wheel they are selling for £45. Believe it or not, it includes not only the rim and the spokes, but also the three speed SRF-3 Sturmey Archer hub gears. THAT'S an AMAZING price!. I've never ever seen the SA hub for less than £60 on its own, let alone built into a new wheel. The SA hub is shown to be 95.6% efficient under ideal conditions in this engineering research paper. The Shimano 27 speed ultegra Mountain derailieur is shown as slightly less at its best. http://www.ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/hp52-2001.pdf

The SA hub in these tests was lubricated with light oil. I've been experimenting with this for a few weeks and am very pleased with oil as a lubricant rather than the factory grease job.


As for the weight of the nuvinci, personally, I wouldn't be that bothered unless I had to carry the thing a lot. I'm already carrying about 15 pounds too much weight around my waist and other parts. If I can pedal that off, I might start worrying about shaving a few pounds off the bike....

I doubt that any user riding his bike around the roads would notice the difference between 97% efficiency and 92% and know it absolutely.

In fact, that's close to the drive train efficiency drop when shifting from a 52/14 to a 40/11, and in a literature search of dozens of cycling advice books that was never mentioned. Ergo: the body can't sense "drivetrain efficiency". However, just because we cannot discern this in real time, it definitely makes a difference over a ride.


On the issue of cost ... they are selling for £45....includes not only the rim and the spokes, but also the three speed SRF-3 Sturmey Archer hub gears.

Here in the USA I've recently seen new, complete bikes with Sturmey AWs for 110USD (~55GBP). Maybe you should try dumping a shipment of tea in the harbor - it worked for us.


The SA hub in these tests was lubricated with light oil.

As Sturmey did for the first 85 years.

Best,
TCS

What is wrong with user reviews? Who cares about numbers? I don't care about exact efficiency numbers. I know the NuVinci is as good as a derailleur (or even better), because I own both.Numbers from scientific tests are more objective than user reviews. How long have you owned the bike with the NuVinci hub and how many kilometers/miles have you cycled with it?

I am asking, because IIRC the main issue why CVTs where not successfully introduced in cars (until maybe very recently, and that's still out for debate) is that they were not reliable over a long time and were expensive to maintain and repair.


My new NuVinci bike is heavy (24kg), but it rides as light as my former (derailleur) bike (about 20kg).A bike that weights 24kg (~53lb) is really heavy. The weight might not be an issue if you only bike in the flat, but try riding up a hill with all that extra weight...

In fact, that's close to the drive train efficiency drop when shifting from a 52/14 to a 40/11, and in a literature search of dozens of cycling advice books that was never mentioned. Ergo: the body can't sense "drivetrain efficiency". However, just because we cannot discern this in real time, it definitely makes a difference over a ride.
Fair point. I well remember the difference of riding a hundred miles on a touring bike and 85 on a wide tyred mountain bike.




Here in the USA I've recently seen new, complete bikes with Sturmey AWs for 110USD (~55GBP). Maybe you should try dumping a shipment of tea in the harbor - it worked for us.
I think the price difference is more a matter of a long history of British companies profiteering on the back of the purchaser. I think it stems from the massive shortage of consumer goods after WW2. When I was born in 1951 even food was still rationed. The country was bankrupt and remained so until about 1960. Stuff is often priced dollar for pound here - a ridiculous situation. Fashion is almost the worst area of price exploitation. People pay £50 for levi jeans here - and I mean ordinary levis... As for dumping tea into the harbour, that would be a shocking waste! I drink gallons of the stuff. They say it even protects against cancer these days.

:)




As Sturmey did for the first 85 years.

Best,
TCS
Yes, I know, and they kept on going for about that long. I have a 1954 AW hub that I just bought on ebay for nostalgia's sake. My dad rode a bike with one when I was a small boy. It looks pretty good and still works properly.

I think greased for life probably means that they'll run a few thousand miles and wear out. I took mine apart after a year of use and about 1500 miles and it had very little lube in it at all. It didn't seem any the worse for wear or anything, but it wasn't lubed as I'd have expected - just the odd smear of old grease. Now it's running wet and slippy - and incredibly quiet too.

A bike that weights 24kg (~53lb) is really heavy. The weight might not be an issue if you only bike in the flat, but try riding up a hill with all that extra weight...
I think the Dutch ride a lot of bikes like that. FransB comes from there. They ride a GREAT DEAL in comparison to most other nations, everybody cycles and these heavy bikes last for decades. The countryside is flat of course. A good part of the Netherlands is below sea level if the usual British view of the country is true. I'm thinking of going there on a bike touring exploit on my Merc. Not sure, but looking into it.

http://www.velorution.biz/images/Velorution%20-%20Dutch%20lady%20w%20two%20kids%20and%20face%20paint%20small.jpg

What is wrong with user reviews? Who cares about numbers? I don't care about exact efficiency numbers. I know the NuVinci is as good as a derailleur (or even better), because I own both.

User reviews have their place. So do independent reviews. Presumably independent reviewers have more experience with a wide variety of bikes. Moreover, they probably have more experience thinking critically about the bikes. Of course, every once in a while, we discover that "independent" reviewers were not so independent after all.

Lot's of people care about numbers. That people are talking about them demonstrates that.

I assume that you mean that the NuVinci is as good as a derailer equipped bike for you ... not globally.


Don't make a big issue of the weight. The NuVinci was introduced in 2007. They made it sturdy (and heavy) and there is only one model, so for now it can only be used in LEVs and citybikes. I'm sure there will be more (lighter) models next year.
My new NuVinci bike is heavy (24kg), but it rides as light as my former (derailleur) bike (about 20kg).

Weight matters more in different environments. A 50 pound bike would be a death sentence around here. One would still be able to get around on the bike ... one would just have to walk up all of the hills.

24kg?! Even for a dutch bike fitted with mudguards, carrier, NuVinvi, steel frame etc that is unreasonably heavy. Is that perhaps pounds...?

The only reason I wonder about efficiency numbers is to silence the skeptics. Whenever the phrase CVT is mentione ICW bicycles, inefficiency is brought up. But since this is a different design, not like a CV joint at all, the old arguments are invalid. So I would like to be able to argue the case of the NuVinci based on numbers.

Some benefits: cheaper then Rohloff, no maintenance, shifting without any hassle (even standing still), always the right cadence.
My entire bike collection is cheaper than one Rohloff hub. :D But as I said, you shouldn't compare the two, as the Rohloff has a substantially wider rage. NuVinci is currently about twice the price, and phenomenally heavier, than the Nexus hubs. Long-term maintenance is, obviously, as yet undetermined.



Instead of "micro-manage your gearing and concentrating on your shifter", you simply turn the shifter a little bit if you're out of cadence. Without losing your concentration at the surroundings.
Constantly adjusting the shifter = micromanagement

If you like it then by all means go for it. What can I say, it just doesn't excite me, especially in an era of 10-speed cassettes -- which already borders on cadence management overkill.....



What is wrong with user reviews? Who cares about numbers? I don't care about exact efficiency numbers. I know the NuVinci is as good as a derailleur (or even better), because I own both.
User reviews, particularly by non-professional reviewers, simply are not objective. Even pro reviewers can have their biases. And it is effectively impossible for a rider to accurately measure things like efficiency, power output and heart rate.

Efficiency is actually quite important, depending on the application; even a small percentage change can mean a huge loss of power for the rider. If the efficiency loss isn't that bad, and/or the rider is looking for basic transportation (e.g. short hops, grocery shopping, commuting, one leisure ride a week) then some efficiency loss will be worth the tradeoff in terms of maintenance.



Don't make a big issue of the weight.... I'm sure there will be more (lighter) models next year.
My new NuVinci bike is heavy (24kg), but it rides as light as my former (derailleur) bike (about 20kg)
I second jur, that can't be right. 53 and 44 lbs respectively? That's just nuts, even for a utility bike.

Regardless, when they put out a hub that isn't 8 freakin' pounds, and whose weight is more in line with other internal hubs, I will be happy to ignore the weight issue. :D

I think greased for life probably means that they'll run a few thousand miles and wear out.

They can always be disassembled, cleaned, and regreased on a regular basis - but that kills the whole "low maintenance" thing.

I recently took a brand new Sturmey SRF3 and drilled and tapped the aluminum hub shell 10-24 for a Sturmey HSA106 oil cap. It's an easy job before the hub is built into a wheel.

I'm not sure one can accomplish this with a SRAM T3, or should. The hub shell is hard steel, and I think the oil would mostly weep out the ends in short order. I could be wrong.

Best,
TCS

I second jur, that can't be right. 53 and 44 lbs respectively? That's just nuts, even for a utility bike.
Actually the "bike of the year" from that company supposedly weighs around 22kg (or 48lb). It comes with an aluminum frame. They also have steel frame versions which are probably heavier. So I don't think it's a mistake.

links:
http://nomoregears.com/blog/2007/04/27/now-that-maakt-mij-vrolijk/

24kg?! Even for a dutch bike fitted with mudguards, carrier, NuVinvi, steel frame etc that is unreasonably heavy. Is that perhaps pounds...?The weight of Dutch "comfort" bikes range from ~ 19kg to ~ 23kg. The weight of Hybrid Bikes (comfort bikes with derailleur) is ~ 17kg to ~ 20kg.
All these bikes are fitted with heavy locks, lights(+dynamo), mudguards, chainguard, coatguards, carrier etc.
So indeed heavy, but for a comfort bike not unreasonably heavy. The hub adds about 10% - 20% to the weigth of the bike, but if you add the weight of the biker itself it is only ~ 2% - 4%. Don't forget the hub itself is about 4kg, but a normal hub also is about 2kg, so it is only an increase of 2kg.

In Switserland simpel.ch is fitting the NuVinci hub in a 18.4kg bike.


User reviews, particularly by non-professional reviewers, simply are not objective. Even pro reviewers can have their biases. And it is effectively impossible for a rider to accurately measure things like efficiency, power output and heart rate.Of course it would be nice to have some objective, independent numbers to see if this concept will work for you. But numbers can also blur things: E.g. a Rohloff has an impressive range of 500% which is completely useless for me in good old flat Holland. Even NuVinci's 350% is quite a lot. So the parameter "range" can be important, but not for me. This doesn't make the Rohloff better then Shimano or Nuvinci...

Numbers from scientific tests are more objective than user reviews. How long have you owned the bike with the NuVinci hub and how many kilometers/miles have you cycled with it?Batavus started selling NuVinci bikes in april 2007, so my bike is brandnew. I cycled about 200km with it and loved it from day two (the first day I had to adjust some things on the bike).


I am asking, because IIRC the main issue why CVTs where not successfully introduced in carsIn the last century (1960-1980) there was a very popular Dutch car: the DAF, which had a real CVT. Unfortunately these cars were not "cool". In Europe automatic gearboxes in cars are only used by disabled and elderly people, so driving such a car is not cool.


Constantly adjusting the shifter = micromanagementNo, constantly thinking about your shifter instead of cycling is micromanagement. My point is: you don't think about shifting anymore. The shifter is a ring as an extension of your handles. If you're not happy with the cadence, you only have to twist your wrist a little bit.

They can always be disassembled, cleaned, and regreased on a regular basis - but that kills the whole "low maintenance" thing.

I recently took a brand new Sturmey SRF3 and drilled and tapped the aluminum hub shell 10-24 for a Sturmey HSA106 oil cap. It's an easy job before the hub is built into a wheel.

I'm not sure one can accomplish this with a SRAM T3, or should. The hub shell is hard steel, and I think the oil would mostly weep out the ends in short order. I could be wrong.

Best,
TCS

I did almost the same thing only more crudely the day before yesterday. I'd tried out squirting the oil into the hub through the hole in the axle where the indicator rod goes in after removing the rod and cleaning the hole. This was an inconvenient way to do it though. Having settled my mind that the oil wouldn't immediately come out of the sides, I ran it a couple of hundred miles and then took out the innards to see how it had gone. All was well inside with a residue of about 5cc of oil left in the hub and a very well lubed set of internals. I then drilled a hole in the hub shell as neatly as I could given the obstruction of spokes and rim, and tapped a bolt into the hole. Now I can just unscrew the bolt and add oil whenever I want, and I have no risk of pushing dirt and grit into the hub through the axle hole.

I'd rather have fitted a proper cap like you did. I should have been more patient and bought the right thing.

I did almost the same thing only more crudely the day before yesterday. I'd tried out squirting the oil into the hub through the hole in the axle where the indicator rod goes in after removing the rod and cleaning the hole. This was an inconvenient way to do it though. Having settled my mind that the oil wouldn't immediately come out of the sides, I ran it a couple of hundred miles and then took out the innards to see how it had gone. All was well inside with a residue of about 5cc of oil left in the hub and a very well lubed set of internals. I then drilled a hole in the hub shell as neatly as I could given the obstruction of spokes and rim, and tapped a bolt into the hole. Now I can just unscrew the bolt and add oil whenever I want, and I have no risk of pushing dirt and grit into the hub through the axle hole.

I'd rather have fitted a proper cap like you did. I should have been more patient and bought the right thing.
Me too started oiling the Merc hub. I bought a 20ml syringe and about 8 cm long syringe injection needle. With the needle it was quite easy to apply 10W-40 oil into the hub. With the needle I could find the threaded hole in the hub where to squirt the oil. I think I could do it without disturbing the dirt on the walls of the axle hole – at least I hope so. It really made the hub completely noiseless on second gear and decreased noise on other gears. Thank you for giving the link to the research paper.

Me too started oiling the Merc hub. I bought a 20ml syringe and about 8 cm long syringe injection needle. With the needle it was quite easy to apply 10W-40 oil into the hub. With the needle I could find the threaded hole in the hub where to squirt the oil. I think I could do it without disturbing the dirt on the walls of the axle hole – at least I hope so. It really made the hub completely noiseless on second gear and decreased noise on other gears. Thank you for giving the link to the research paper.

I got that link from a post by someone else - Jur, I think. It was an interesting read I thought.

We could start a new trend in really slippy SA SRF-3 gears. If you put a lot in, the system self corrects - it just pisses the surplus out of the hub via the driver and you'll see it on the rear sprocket and if you've been very overgenerous, maybe on the tyre too. If you stick to about 5 cc, and just top up with a couple of cc when the hub starts making the 'bright' ticking it used to make, you'll not see much if any mess outside the hub.

The only reason I went as far as drilling the casing for an oilport, was the inconvenience of undoing the indicator rod that changes the gears. Maybe your needle will allow you to do the job without removing that. My oil can method required the removal of the indicator rod and then I had to readjust the gears. I thought that was a nuisance.

IThe only reason I went as far as drilling the casing for an oilport, was the inconvenience of undoing the indicator rod that changes the gears. Maybe your needle will allow you to do the job without removing that. My oil can method required the removal of the indicator rod and then I had to readjust the gears. I thought that was a nuisance.

Well, I did have to move the rod first – it is inconvenient. But with the needle there may be less chance of dirt getting in. I think I’ll later do what you or tcs did, because obviously dirt is the worst thing for the hub. It’s pity they don’t fit oiling nipple in the factory – I suppose it would be old fashion, and couldn’t be advertised maintenance free of course.
I found this amazing story of Sturmey-Archer’s history http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/elegy.htm - might interest somebody.

Well, I did have to move the rod first – it is inconvenient. But with the needle there may be less chance of dirt getting in. I think I’ll later do what you or tcs did, because obviously dirt is the worst thing for the hub. It’s pity they don’t fit oiling nipple in the factory – I suppose it would be old fashion, and couldn’t be advertised maintenance free of course.
I found this amazing story of Sturmey-Archer’s history http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/elegy.htm (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/%7Ehadland/elegy.htm) - might interest somebody.
Hell that's a sorry tale Maranen. I've read it before some time ago, but I was glad to refresh my memory. Sadly, this kind of management haunted the British manufacturing sector up until the modern era. Short term thinking, lack of investment and other vices too. I'm not surprised that so much of the ordinary manufacturing business has for so long been outsourced to places where people take risk, work harder, and innovate. I think Brompton are similarly affected. Look how little they have done to improve their product - and look at the ridiculous price!

Thanks for posting it.

If you do drill a hole in the hub casing, I hope you get a better angle than I did. Owing to the spokes, rim and my drill, mine went in at an angle. Fortunately, I had a short bolt which I was able to tap into the soft alloy shell as a plug. I have to be careful how far I screw it in though..... A touch too far and it fouls the internals, which are fortunately well protected at the point of contact. I'm not much of an engineer drilling into the casing with a hand-held drill....:eek:

On the other hand, Anita at Merc will sell us all an entire rear wheel with complete new SA SRF-3 hub gear for a mere £45 plus postage.

1st off, it's amusing to note that those making the most negative comments about the NuVinci hub have never ridden a bike with one. I have and if the weight ever gets down to 5 lbs I'll buy several.

As for reliability and durability – I'm sure an outfit like Batavus would be the last to sign on if it wasn't thoroughly tested. And since there will be parallel development in the automotive and industrial applications I expect the technology to advance quickly.

If I lived in Europe, I'd rather have a SRAM iMotion 9. However the people at SRAM USA booth acted as is I must be simple minded for asking if it will be brought to the US.

They are convinced that Americans will never pay much for hub geared bikes. One SRAM guy told me they sold over 2,500,000 hub gears world wide, but less than 200 in the USA last year. Since they don't stock any parts, (Apparently figuring American mechanics are as dumb as our "leaders".) no one in their right mind would buy one. Catch 22- The don't stock parts or promote internal hubs because not enough people buy them. Nobody's buying them because they don't promote them or stock parts.

I've heard Bianchi will be bringing in an iMotion equipped bike but will only sell it thorough 30 "Boutique" shops. But with the departure of Sky Yeager from Bianchi, even this may not happen.

People used to ride around the world on one speed. I tour using a Sturmey S5 with a 225% overall range. I don't understand those who don't believe they can tour with 340 or 350%.

A friend recently forwarded the following review, which contains a good description of how the rider takes advantage of CVT.

The NuVinci CVT Bicycle Hub

A Review

Since before the turn of the twentieth century, the development of
gearing systems for bicycles has inspired a vast amount of technical
invention and innovation. The overwhelming variety of drive train styles
has been the subject of many articles and several books, and new
developments continue to appear. One goal that has obsessed inventors
almost from the beginning has been the creation of a continuously
variable drive system. There have been many attempts to build such a
system, which would allow the rider to change the gear ratio throughout
the range without being limited to specific gear increments. Until now,
all the imaginative approaches to this mechanical conundrum have been
either completely unworkable, or inappropriate for use on bicycles.

The NuVinci Continuously Variable Transmission hub has finally achieved
this goal: a bicycle drive train of moderate weight, good efficiency and
durability under torque, with an infinitely adjustable gear ratio and a
range of 350%. As one of the first US distributors of this revolutionary
hub, Seattle Bike Supply recently received a sample, which we promptly
built into a wheel, installed on a bike, and began testing under the
toughest conditions we could impose. I had the privilege of riding it
for the first week, and these are my impressions.

The hub itself is larger and heavier than any other internally geared
hub, but not unreasonably so. The 150 mm flange means that wheels must
built in a two cross pattern, and the resulting wheel will shift the
center of gravity rearward on the bike. Initial installation requires
careful attention to the instructions, as the shifting mechanism must be
properly installed on the axle, but once the set up process is complete,
removing and reinstalling the wheel is only slightly more complex than
it would be for a standard bolt on wheel, and easier than a coaster
brake wheel (our wheel was set up for disc brake use - there is also the
option of using the Shimano roller brake, which would make removal and
reinstallation more difficult). The shifter uses a double cable system,
and is easy to install when assembled with cables and axle mounted shift
box. Setting up the cables and shift box is a somewhat complex process,
but not too technically sophisticated. The twist grip style shifter
makes one full revolution going from the low end of the range to the
high end, and has an unusual display which indicates the ratio without
numbers. In the lowest ratio, a red line forms an inchworm-like hump,
indicating the sort of hill you can climb in that ratio, and as you
shift up, the line flattens out, until it is perfectly straight for the
highest ratio.

Once we had a working bike, I began using it as my primary commuting
bike. My daily commute is 8 miles one way, and the return trip involves
1 ¼ miles of 9.6% uphill grade. To make things more fun, it is winter in
the Pacific Northwest, and rain, grit, mud and freezing temperatures add
to the conditions that any bicycle must endure. I am also the sort of
person who always needs to have a certain amount of paraphernalia (tool
kit, thermos, lunch, rain gear, first aid kit, etc.) and cargo space for
running errands. I never travel light, so I was towing a two wheel cargo
trailer at all times during this week of testing, with a minimum of 20
lbs. on the trailer.

During the first day of riding, I did have some minor problems with the
axle slipping in the dropouts, but this was easily rectified with more
torque on the axle nuts. Once the wheel was properly secured, I was
unable to cause any sort of malfunction whatsoever, and I did try.

The function of this hub is different than anything you have ever
ridden. There are no "gears" as we know them. The range built into the
hub is the equivalent of having an 11-38 tooth cassette, but the rider
does not select a gear within this range. Instead, you simply adjust the
ratio to match your riding preference and the terrain. It feels like
turning a dimmer switch or the volume dial on your stereo. The hub is
always "in gear" because the mechanism is always engaged, and always
capable of transmitting the pedaling torque to the rim. Because of this,
there is no way to miss a shift, and no need to worry about when you
should shift. You can always shift, whether pedaling, coasting or stopped.

One of the best aspects of this is that it makes shifting simple. It is
no longer something you need to think about at all; if you want to
shift, you shift, any time, even when stopped. Even so, using the hub to
its best advantage does involve learning some different habits. During
the first day of riding, I found myself waiting until my cadence was
high enough to get into the next gear, a good habit with any other
gearing system, but totally unnecessary with the NuVinci. When
accelerating, it is possible to shift continuously, keeping your cadence
constant as you go from a stop up to cruising speed. If you shift a
little too far, and find yourself in a ratio that is a bit too high,
adjust back down a little - there is no trauma, no hesitation, no chain
slipping.

Once I got used to shifting whenever I felt like it, I found that the
hub gave me some very useful feedback about my pedaling stroke. The
manufacturer states that you can shift the hub under load, and while
this is true, it is also true that any system under load will resist
shifting. The more force you are putting on the chain, the more force it
will require to move the shifter. If you have consciously developed the
habit of relieving the pressure on the pedals when your hand shifts,
this will be no problem, but if you do shift this hub under pressure,
you will find that it tells you exactly where the "dead spot" is in your
pedaling stroke. Under rapid acceleration, with moderate pressure on the
shifter, the hub shifts in small increments every time your foot hits
that spot. I found that in some circumstances, I actually had almost no
dead spots in my stroke, and at other cadences, on different terrain, I
seemed to have three. Very educational; after a while the feedback
between feet and shifting hand becomes totally instinctive, with no
intervention from the brain at all.

The ease of adjusting the ratio also led me to discover an interesting
riding strategy - I found that when my legs were laboring on long
upgrades, I was able to shift down just slightly and spin a bit faster,
sometimes just for two or three pedal strokes, and then shift back up
into the original ratio without any trouble. With a conventional gearing
system, the need must be dire before this sort of multiple shift is
worth the trouble.

I did try to put as much torque on the hub as I could, to see if I could
break anything, with no success. After one grocery run, I chose the
steeper of two possible routes home to haul the 60 lbs of trailer and
supplies home, but even muscling over speed bumps on an extreme slope
from a dead stop using 180 mm cranks seemed to have no effect on the
hub. I never felt any slippage in the hub, though by the end of the week
the chainring I had used was showing signs of extreme stress.

The factory specs on torque state that the chainring should be at least
twice as large as the cog on the hub, and this is how it was set up for
this test, with a 19t freewheel and a 38t chainring. With this
combination, the lowest ratio available gives the equivalent of a 1:1
gear, in which the rear wheel rotates once for each crank revolution. On
this bike, a Redline Monocog Flight with Rhyno Lite rims, this
translates to a 26" low gear. With the 350% range of the hub, this means
that the highest ratio is a 91" gear - all in all, high enough and low
enough to be useful in almost all situations. I did find myself using
the full range, and I never felt that I really needed more, though I
occasionally thought I might want it.

One of the main advantages of any internally geared system is resistance
to extreme weather and dirty conditions, and the NuVinci is no exception
to this. At the end of my week, I took the time to clean around a half a
pound of road grit off the bike, and had to open the Euro style BMX
bottom bracket to let the water out. Through all the slop that winter
dumped on it, the hub remained impervious, and chain maintenance was the
main concern, though there was never any question of derailing, as the
chain line was essentially the same as any BMX drive train.

Overall, I would say that the hub performed excellently, and definitely
lives up to its promise as a unique and revolutionary technology. The
one feature that is lacking is some sort of protection for the shift
box, which is mounted on the right side of the axle, and could be
vulnerable in a crash, or when parking in a bike rack. It should be
possible to modify a derailleur guard to prevent such damage, but it
would be best if the manufacturer were to provide a guard. It is
possible that future versions of the hub will be lighter, as well, but
the current weight is not inappropriate for the comfort, city, commuting
and cruiser style bikes that it is likely to be installed on. The great
news is that we have continuous shifting at long last, and it is not
only reliable, it's fun!

Thanks for the info. A fascinating review.

fransb, you that is YOUR website? Are you selling this hub?

MnHPV .. thanks for this review - it answers (positively) all my questions about this. I'd like to try it in traffic - I would guess that by keeping prefered cadence and gradually increasing the gearing it should give best 'from the lights' starts, without even getting out of the saddle - useful in London. this would be on a road/town bike tho - as weight would be bad on a folder.

this would be on a road/town bike tho - as weight would be bad on a folder.Not necessarily - if you started with a good frame, took care to use quality light weight components and added the NuVinci hub, you could quite easily have something as light as 12kg. And while this is far from the lightest weight folder, it would probably outclass almost all commercially available folders.

Yes maybe - I am just fascinated by the infinitely variable gear concept - so who on here will be the 1st to get one and report back :)

What a waste of money:
http://www.rei.com/product/760064?vcat=REI_SSHP_CYCLING_LD
http://www.rei.com/product/760062?vcat=REI_SSHP_CYCLING_LD

...and of course they won't list the weight.

Edit: On the other hand, there is enough space within the main frame to fit an engine of some sort. Perhaps that's the intention behind the design?

What a waste of money:
http://www.rei.com/product/760064?vcat=REI_SSHP_CYCLING_LD
http://www.rei.com/product/760062?vcat=REI_SSHP_CYCLING_LD

...and of course they won't list the weight.
It appears it is also not real, at least the signature version when they took the pics.
If you look at he close up, it doesn't have belt drive, pity, THAT I might find iinteresting.
Ooops! Just found a picture of a prototype at a show with belt drive.
We shall see I suppose, I don't see it being light and strong with that frame shape.
Racing is obviously not its purpose, cruising along the boulevard I suspect, they
do make comments elsewhere about it being an ideal commuter.(!?) It has its purpose
I suppose, but its not my scene, you might say, though if I had the money spare, I would
be tempted to by the Signature, purely as an investment.