for the record:

Real estate prices in Lansing have outpaced the averages for the nation.

A "guaranteed" investment would probably have a very low rate of return.

There have been two or three threads about real estate in Detroit, at least one about N.O., but you didn't participate in any of these.
Most people who have $8,000 to purchase a real estate investment have to pick a specific property, which may or may not ride the average. Buying a property is not like investing in an indexed mutual fund with a market basket of real estate properties.

Most people who have $8,000 to purchase a real estate investment have to pick a specific property, which may or may not ride the average. Buying a property is not like investing in an indexed mutual fund with a market basket of real estate properties.
I guess for every example we come up with, you will come up with a counterexample. So let's get back to the main point:

In some cases, a car is a lousy investment. Not only could it get swept away in the Utah tsunami, but it will depreciate in value very rapidly. Also, it's expensive to operate and maintain. Many people will be financially ahead if they ditch the car and invest the savings (minus the cost of alternative transit) in some other commodity.

To save you the trouble, I will concede that sometimes a car is a great investment. That's IF (big "if") it's the cheapest way you can get to a profitable job, education opportunity, etc.

I guess for every example we come up with, you will come up with a counterexample. So let's get back to the main point:

In some cases, a car is a lousy investment. Not only could it get swept away in the Utah tsunami, but it will depreciate in value very rapidly. Also, it's expensive to operate and maintain. Many people will be financially ahead if they ditch the car and invest the savings (minus the cost of alternative transit) in some other commodity.

To save you the trouble, I will concede that sometimes a car is a great investment. That's IF (big "if") it's the cheapest way you can get to a profitable job, education opportunity, etc.
Most people, other than some car collectors, don't consider cars an investment at all, but rather a means of transportation.

Most people, other than some car collectors, don't consider cars an investment at all, but rather a means of transportation.
Well DUH! My point exactly. If they considered them as an investment, they wouldn't buy them.

Well DUH! My point exactly. If they considered them as an investment, they wouldn't buy them.
Sort of like a washing machine or stove, eh? Few consider them investments, and most could do without by using a simple life substitute, but are not likely to stop buying or using after hearing dreamy stories about the investment possibilities with the saved money.

Sort of like a washing machine or stove, eh? Few consider them investments, and most could do without by using a simple life substitute, but are not likely to stop buying or using after hearing dreamy stories about the investment possibilities with the saved money.
Cleaning your clothes is a necessity with no alternatives. Transportation is also a necessity, but for many people there are alternatives that are cheaper than a car. I'm sorry that you're not one of those people, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

Now enough of your pitiful little examples. If you can't address the central points, it's not worth my time.

Sort of like a washing machine or stove, eh? Few consider them investments, and most could do without by using a simple life substitute, but are not likely to stop buying or using after hearing dreamy stories about the investment possibilities with the saved money.

Listen to Dave Ramsey sometime and hear how many poor people without two nickels to rub together have car payments, gas payments, insurance payments etc.

Triple A's new estimate is that it costs over 60 cents per mile to drive a modest car like a camry!

Cleaning your clothes is a necessity with no alternatives.
Sure there are alternatives for those looking to remain above the fuelish crowd. Hand washing/air drying was good enough in the past, some people may still do that, and save money, too! So why change do anything else unless those who use those energy hog machines are lazy fat butts.

Gentlemen, I am not going to take the time to clean up this thread. However it is obvious that some of you have little intent here beyond causing problems, baiting and picking fights. It took only a few posts on the first page for this to start and it seems to continue for the next several pages of this thread. The Car Free forum is usually one of the less problematic areas of BikeForums and I expect that to continue from this point forward. Else I will be more than happy to let one of our new moderators use this thread as an exercise in how to clean up a mess.

To the OP - congrats on your plans and living car free. I wish I will one day live in an area that I can reduce my car usage by 50% let alone 100%. Best of luck to you.

Actually if you invested $8000 a year which is the average cost of car ownership then you would have $4,590,161 after 50 years with an average 8% return.

http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2006/05/31/the-true-cost-of-car-ownership/

http://www.ici.org/cgi-bin/calcs/SAV14.cgi/investment_company_institute

Well, your going to pay something for transportation, around here a annual bus pass is about $1100 ($91 a month), throw in $150 or so for bicycle repairs, and maybe another $2500 or so for car rentals and the occasional cab ride, your into about $1500 a year, that comes OFF the $8000 to be fair, meaning your investing $6500 -- after 50 years, your probably still north of $4,000,000.

Now the absolute highest investment rate, is to eliminate debt, think about it, if you have a credit card, that your paying 18% on, then paying it down, means your investing your money at 18% -- the 18% your not paying later.

The second best is your primary residence. If your renting, then even though it means adding debt, buying real estate is a good long term investment, because your building equity for free. Now here is where it gets interesting, the $200 a month you were paying on that $5000 credit card balance, that we eliminated the first year, that's our money, so instead of $6500 we now have $8,900 a year, so we stick that into an investment plan, that allows us to withdraw or sell at any time. After 3 more years we have $40,000 enough to put a down payment on a nice little condo, now your $8900 goes into fees, taxes, utilities and a little bit into the mortgage. In 25 years, we own the condo outright, so in 30 years we own our own home, and have no more payments to make, at this point your kids are making noise about college, and your looking at no more mortgage payments:D

Well the wife and I NEVER ride in busses/cabs and we drive about 5 times per year.

Those five times will cost us about $500.00 in rentals and gasoline.

MY bike comes with free lifetime labor from the bike shop so with parts we can keep rolling for well under 200 per year. All my bike stuff is paid for including two bikes and a bikes at work model 96 trailer and a burley flatbed trailer.

Columbia only has about 90,000 people so you never need anything but a bicycle. I lived here for three years and have never *needed* my truck the whole time I have lived here so I dont expect being without it to be any problem at all.

In fact I havent driven to work at all in the three years I have worked here. I used to live 3 miles from work and now only live about 1 mile away so even when it snowed 18 inches I just walked over in my snowboots.

Buying a house on credit is certainly not building equity for free. If it really takes you 30 year to pay off a house then you will have paid about 3 times the actual cost of the house. Check out a payment caluclator sometime. With 20k down on a 150k house the actual principle was only about 20% of the payment initially. Thats how I remember it anyway I have not looked at an amorization (SP?) table in a long time.

Have a good one everybody!

We understand you. You sound like a good guy. No doubt, "I like to argue" will take any statement as a gauntlet thrown down, but the rest of us are more relaxed. We salute your car-free efforts.

We understand you. You sound like a good guy. No doubt, "I like to argue" will take any statement as a gauntlet thrown down, but the rest of us are more relaxed. We salute your car-free efforts.

For those about to ROCK, we salute you!

Well the wife and I NEVER ride in busses/cabs and we drive about 5 times per year.

Those five times will cost us about $500.00 in rentals and gasoline.

MY bike comes with free lifetime labor from the bike shop so with parts we can keep rolling for well under 200 per year. All my bike stuff is paid for including two bikes and a bikes at work model 96 trailer and a burley flatbed trailer.

Columbia only has about 90,000 people so you never need anything but a bicycle. I lived here for three years and have never *needed* my truck the whole time I have lived here so I dont expect being without it to be any problem at all.

In fact I havent driven to work at all in the three years I have worked here. I used to live 3 miles from work and now only live about 1 mile away so even when it snowed 18 inches I just walked over in my snowboots.

Buying a house on credit is certainly not building equity for free. If it really takes you 30 year to pay off a house then you will have paid about 3 times the actual cost of the house. Check out a payment caluclator sometime. With 20k down on a 150k house the actual principle was only about 20% of the payment initially. Thats how I remember it anyway I have not looked at an amorization (SP?) table in a long time.

Have a good one everybody!

Well, actually you ARE building equity, for free. You have three options, when looking for a place to live, you can rent, or buy on credit, you can pay cash, but only if you win the lotto, or happen to have a rich family, neither of which you can control.

Okay, so you pay $1000 a month in rent, or $1000 a month in mortgage payments, in the case of renting, at the end of 30 years you have nothing, with the mortgage you have the $150,000 you can sell the house for, although a house that sells today for $150,000 could very well sell for $450,000 in 30 years time. That is what I mean by free equity, your building equity with money you would have spent anyway, and it's the only investment where the profit is non-taxable and often inflation protected, in that values tend to rise with inflation.

Rent is not that high here.

$485.00 gets you a pretty nice apartment.

You can buy a house for cash if you have a decent income and save.

If you live on 15k a year but make a combined 90K then after just a few years you could buy a nice house for cash. Most people dont do that though. Most people could not bring themselves to live on 15k a year if they made 90k because they would be afraid that people did not know they made 90k.

Thats the society that we live in.