I honestly lean towards the belief that there is no excuse, no reason, for an able-bodied person to be poor. I know first-hand in my and my peer's jobs: companies have a hard time attacting and keeping good mid-paid people ($12-17/hr). All they really need to do is be reliable, just show up: no special skills needed! Yet the job market must be really good, cause they get bored after a few weeks, quit showing up, don't bother to call in... and get on "unemployment" till it runs out.

I don't give a tiny little rat's rear what your color is, where you used to live, what you watch on tv, what kind of accent you speak with, who you vote for; all I want is for you to show up on time and drive the dang forklift safely. In other words: to do the job you're getting paid for!

We have an epidemic of Laziness in this country. And a scarsity of personal responsibility, imho.

And yet here I am. I have left the country because, very simply, I was unable to find a job that paid more than minimum wage (and the was with a 60 mile commute). After finishing college I set my standard at 13/hr, then lowered it to 10/hr. I was still unable to find a job that paid more than I was earning before college (Business Admin w/ HR), or even 7-8/hour (and those were the ones with the 60 mile commute). I tried insurance sales for a while and found that it paid less than minimum wage and required me to drive all over the place. Before I went to college I worked as a copier repairman with over ten years experience. I was always an early to work and work late kind of person; but, I am in a "no rehire" (blackball) area so I can not return to that industry (a pretty common thing around the country, there are just too many people looking for too few jobs).

The facts are that when I return to the US I do not see things looking any better than they did when I left; and yes, I do regularly check the job and EDD websites. The jobs are just not there.

It's true that it seems like people don't like to work. And it's true that companies aren't interested in keeping good employees (at sub $10 an hour level). So which came first? And who is going to be the first one to stop?

I'm semi retired and used to own a couple of my own businesses. It was always hard to find people that would show up, do what they said they would do, and get it right the first time. When I found people like that, I would do just about anything I could to keep them.

Now I'm working part time in retail, mainly for something to do. I started in management, but the corporate entity simply wasn't interested in giving me any ability to reward good employees. (Or do any real management, for that matter) Their attitude is simply "there's lots more where they came from". Now I'm part time, and a lot happier not to have to deal with the responsibility and the issues. Funny things is, I'm always on time, rarely miss any days (at least without a lot of advance notice) willing to fill in for people that don't show up on my day off, (a very common occurence) and even help out management by taking on some responsibilities that are not normally handled by non management employees, like opening/closing, inventory and training. And yet, when my yearly raise came around I was offered $0.18 an hour. Does that make sense?

With that kind of attitude it's pretty easy to see why employees don't care about thier jobs. There's no future in sticking with something like that.

And to stay on topic, I ride my bike to work every day that I can.

Az

Agreed.

My post was not ment to attack the poor. The individual has hijacked my thread and hurled insults while offering no real solutions. Maybe he really believes the poor are doomed to live with costly motorized transport the rest of their lives.

I happen to believe there are solutions and it can be hard or easy. It depends on the circumstances.

I love the criticism of "offers no real solutions". That is fantastic. Like you've published a whitepaper by using three women in an article aw a springboard to repeat the car-free montra. Is there anything in the world "move closer to work, work closer to home, ride a bike" isn't a quick and easy solution to? You've practically founded another Brookings Institution by trotting that out one more time.

I've already explained myself, at length. I offer no "solutions" because I'm not an idiot, I've got enough neurons firing to realize the problem of the poor being squeezed by gas prices is a systemic, institutional one. I've already said, more than once, that I can't speak for the women in the article, and in fact I can't speak for any specific person getting squeezed. Of course they may be idiots, or course they may be lazy, of course they may be able to work closer to home, etc. My point is, again, that it is ridiculous, asinine, insulting, and fairly disgusting to look at problems in this country and effectively say, "These people are stupid. All they have to do is be like me." Which is where this thread quickly went, which is where the car-free forum often goes. Which, hell, is where lots of people go all the time.

But I hijacked your thread. Because I didn't jump in to say "yeah, those people are stupid for not being more like us"? I don't get it. I've been on topic, the thing is I just think you and others here, are completely wrong. And, even though I've explained this in painful detail, I guess I have to point it out again... not wrong in that those people in the article, or people in general may be lazy or stupid or may be able to live closer to work, etc., not wrong in that regard. That's just the particulars, and it's silly to say you're wrong because I don't know if you are- but more importantly, you don't know if you're right, so it just kind of makes it all pointless. You're wrong on a more basic level. Acroy and maddyfish and the other guy who hates taxes are wrong on an even more fundamental level, but they're pretty similar. You're wrong thinking societal problems are right now and individual. You're wrong thinking solutions for societal problems- and the price of gas severly effecting large numbers of people is one- are individual problems, personal lifestyle problems. Acroy and maddyfish are more deeply wrong in that they think societal problems are not only purely individual, but they are the manifestations of individual problems... sort of like, a labor or employment problem is a gestalt entity made up of a nation of lazy, stupid people. Basically they're wrong for not thinking there's anything outside their own experience that could possibly make any difference to their personal conclusions. You're all wrong for realistically not being able to distinguish between the individual and societal.

I'm sorry, some things I just can't be kind and accomodating any more. Life's too short to not say to a guy who... just an example, thinks taxes for public education is theft and he doens't like educating other people's children that, "You're an utter fool. It's not about you or your neighbor's kid or even if that kid does well or not, it's about maintenence of the republic, it's about a nation creating a context for it's people in which potential can most easily grow. It's not a dollar out of your pocket, it's a man on the moon." Some things are too important to *****foot around.

It's true that it seems like people don't like to work. And it's true that companies aren't interested in keeping good employees (at sub $10 an hour level). So which came first? And who is going to be the first one to stop?

I'm semi retired and used to own a couple of my own businesses. It was always hard to find people that would show up, do what they said they would do, and get it right the first time. When I found people like that, I would do just about anything I could to keep them.

Now I'm working part time in retail, mainly for something to do. I started in management, but the corporate entity simply wasn't interested in giving me any ability to reward good employees. (Or do any real management, for that matter) Their attitude is simply "there's lots more where they came from". Now I'm part time, and a lot happier not to have to deal with the responsibility and the issues. Funny things is, I'm always on time, rarely miss any days (at least without a lot of advance notice) willing to fill in for people that don't show up on my day off, (a very common occurence) and even help out management by taking on some responsibilities that are not normally handled by non management employees, like opening/closing, inventory and training. And yet, when my yearly raise came around I was offered $0.18 an hour. Does that make sense?

With that kind of attitude it's pretty easy to see why employees don't care about thier jobs. There's no future in sticking with something like that.

And to stay on topic, I ride my bike to work every day that I can.

Az

You're right. The service industry, and most large business, sees workers as nothing more than a necessary evil. They're an expense, that's all. Wall street rewards companies when they lay off hundreds or thousands of workers because it means a plus to the bottom line. Service jobs are the worst precisely because hardwork, intelligence and integrity are not valued and not rewarded, for the most part. Their business model isn't to invest in their workers and have a stable, compentant front-line workforce but rather to make their business as independant from their service employees as possible so they can afford to pay little. It doesn't matter how high the turnaround is, all they need is a bag of meat to fill the shoes. My ex-stepmom worked at a grocery chain that was bought out by a larger grocery chain. She was in a union and made decent money and got good benefits. Really good worker, very dedicated, model employee, basically. When they got bought out everyone was fired and then allowed to reapply for their old jobs, less pay, no benefits. They don't promote from within, for the most part, so now, what's her reward for being a good worker? She's paid lousy, raises are a joke, there's no hope of serious advancement, literally it doesn't matter if she does her job well or does it half-assed, it would not change her circumstances on bit. The only thing keeping her working hard is simple pride.

Those kinds of jobs, and the service industry is I believe the largest segment of employers, reward incompetence. Failing to reward hard work or knowledge or whatever else is the same thing as rewarding incompetance (not the sort in my sig. btw). A slack-jawed drooler gets paid the same and treated the same- by the company- as a smart go-getter. This is why if you're in LA and you go into a department store, the last thing you ever, ever want to do is ask someone for help. We're talking barely conscious people. And every large retailer follows the low-pay, few-promotions, no-benefits, high-turnover model any more. REI used to be great. They opened a new on in Santa Monica and the bike mechanic didn't even know how a crankset worked, basically. I asked him if this park BB remover tool fit all shimano bb's or if there was a different standard for say, their newer octalink bb's and square-taper bb's (I didn't know at the time). He told me it was only for splined cranksets because the notches around the tool fit into the splines of the crankset. I said, 'this is to remove a bottom bracket'. He said, 'yeah, and these splines mate with the spines on the crankset, so it only works for splined cranksets.'

He's still the head mechanic. Why? Don't matter if he doesn't know what he's talking about, all they need is meat to fill the shoes.

If you've always had a good education and opportunities for a good income, it's almost impossible to comprehend the trap that poverty represents.

For example, those who say "just move" just don't get it. First, truly poor people (disabled or making less than say $12 at a full-time job) are often forced to live in subsidized housing. That means they really can't afford to move some place else. There are usually waiting lists for public housing, and you're forced to live where they put you. Second, to move is expensive. First and last month, security deposit, plus the moving expenses themselves. A poor person is unable to save a couple grand to move. Third, if you're poor you know that the only way out for your kids is to get them a good education. In many parts of the country that means you must live in a suburb, because urban schools are just plain terrible.

You know, no matter how hard people try, a number of people are going to HAVE to take the low-paying jobs, a number are going to HAVE to be unemployed, a number are going to HAVE to suffer with disabling conditions. And yes, looking at distribution principles, a number are going to HAVE to possess less than average intelligence.

If you're too cheap to pay to help these unfortunate people, fine. That's between you and God. But at least don't fall into the cheap thinking that they deserve what happens to them, or that it's their own fault. That's adding stupidity to your innate lack of compassion.

Personally, I have a real problem with how Diet Coke makes me FAT. I drink it all the time, and can't get rid of the last 10lbs!

j/k :), though identifying Causality when it comes to race & economic background may be a fool's errand, due to the politically & emotionally explosive nature of the beast

I honestly lean towards the belief that there is no excuse, no reason, for an able-bodied person to be poor. I know first-hand in my and my peer's jobs: companies have a hard time attacting and keeping good mid-paid people ($12-17/hr). All they really need to do is be reliable, just show up: no special skills needed! Yet the job market must be really good, cause they get bored after a few weeks, quit showing up, don't bother to call in... and get on "unemployment" till it runs out.

I don't give a tiny little rat's rear what your color is, where you used to live, what you watch on tv, what kind of accent you speak with, who you vote for; all I want is for you to show up on time and drive the dang forklift safely. In other words: to do the job you're getting paid for!

We have an epidemic of Laziness in this country. And a scarsity of personal responsibility, imho.
Most of the poor are not able-bodied adults. Most have a disability, physical or mental, that makes it hard or even impossible for them to work. Others lack the education or training to get a job that pays enough to live on, let alone support a family.

The simple fact that low-paying jobs exist, and somebody will get stuck doing these jobs. I'm glad I was lucky enough that it wasn't me! Half of the population is "below average" when it comes to abilities, but people should not be forced into jobs that don't pay enough to support a family. Also, remember that the nation's largest employer is Walmart, and that explains a lot. Like Walmart, many large retail employers don't offer full-time schedules, and most don't offer adequate health benefits. If you break your collar bone riding your bike, you get fired, and you have no way to pay for your health care. You enter that poverty trap, and it is very difficult to escape.

>>>>Single mom Esther Guzman is used to juggling her family finances. But lately, it's gotten harder to make ends meet. The 38-year-old mother of four's monthly gasoline bill has jumped to more than $300. Guzman, of Monmouth Junction, N.J., makes $11 an hour helping others apply for low-income energy aid, and receives $400 a month in child support<<<<<

This is insanity.


So if she spends $300/month at $3/gallon that's 100gallons.... x 3.78 = 378 Litres.... HOLY COW!!!

Wonder how far she drives her suv - you do know that anytime there's even the remote possibility of having more than two people in a vehicle in the next 7 years the purchase of a SUV is mandatory, right?

At the moment, our little car burns through about 110L/month.

Biking - it's a beautiful thing.

I love the criticism of "offers no real solutions". That is fantastic. Like you've published a whitepaper by using three women in an article aw a springboard to repeat the car-free montra. Is there anything in the world "move closer to work, work closer to home, ride a bike" isn't a quick and easy solution to? You've practically founded another Brookings Institution by trotting that out one more time.

I've already explained myself, at length. I offer no "solutions" because I'm not an idiot, I've got enough neurons firing to realize the problem of the poor being squeezed by gas prices is a systemic, institutional one. I've already said, more than once, that I can't speak for the women in the article, and in fact I can't speak for any specific person getting squeezed. Of course they may be idiots, or course they may be lazy, of course they may be able to work closer to home, etc. My point is, again, that it is ridiculous, asinine, insulting, and fairly disgusting to look at problems in this country and effectively say, "These people are stupid. All they have to do is be like me." Which is where this thread quickly went, which is where the car-free forum often goes. Which, hell, is where lots of people go all the time.

But I hijacked your thread. Because I didn't jump in to say "yeah, those people are stupid for not being more like us"? I don't get it. I've been on topic, the thing is I just think you and others here, are completely wrong. And, even though I've explained this in painful detail, I guess I have to point it out again... not wrong in that those people in the article, or people in general may be lazy or stupid or may be able to live closer to work, etc., not wrong in that regard. That's just the particulars, and it's silly to say you're wrong because I don't know if you are- but more importantly, you don't know if you're right, so it just kind of makes it all pointless. You're wrong on a more basic level. Acroy and maddyfish and the other guy who hates taxes are wrong on an even more fundamental level, but they're pretty similar. You're wrong thinking societal problems are right now and individual. You're wrong thinking solutions for societal problems- and the price of gas severly effecting large numbers of people is one- are individual problems, personal lifestyle problems. Acroy and maddyfish are more deeply wrong in that they think societal problems are not only purely individual, but they are the manifestations of individual problems... sort of like, a labor or employment problem is a gestalt entity made up of a nation of lazy, stupid people. Basically they're wrong for not thinking there's anything outside their own experience that could possibly make any difference to their personal conclusions. You're all wrong for realistically not being able to distinguish between the individual and societal.

I'm sorry, some things I just can't be kind and accomodating any more. Life's too short to not say to a guy who... just an example, thinks taxes for public education is theft and he doens't like educating other people's children that, "You're an utter fool. It's not about you or your neighbor's kid or even if that kid does well or not, it's about maintenence of the republic, it's about a nation creating a context for it's people in which potential can most easily grow. It's not a dollar out of your pocket, it's a man on the moon." Some things are too important to *****foot around.

This is not discussion, your posts are largely pollution. You make no friends and influence no people by throwing mud, and rabidly attacking the OP as above. I assume you are taking the time to write in such length and detail because you hope to influence others on this board. Please start showing enough maturity to debate in a reasonable manner. This is doing the forums no credit.

You have labeled those who disagree or question you as "wrong on a basic level", "utter fool", and "small-minded"! "I'm sorry, some things I just can't be kind and accomodating any more". You are very clear that you consider your opinion on the matter to be so very superior , that you will no longer discuss it! I would say, sir, that you are the small-minded, because I at least wish to debate.

This is not discussion, your posts are largely pollution. You make no friends and influence no people by throwing mud, and rabidly attacking the OP as above. I assume you are taking the time to write in such length and detail because you hope to influence others on this board. Please start showing enough maturity to debate in a reasonable manner. This is doing the forums no credit.

You have labeled those who disagree or question you as "wrong on a basic level", "utter fool", and "small-minded"! "I'm sorry, some things I just can't be kind and accomodating any more". You are very clear that you consider your opinion on the matter to be so very superior , that you will no longer discuss it! I would say, sir, that you are the small-minded, because I at least wish to debate.

I, for one find TimJ's posts insightful, informative and to the point. He seems to be far better informed and far more thoughtful and analytical than the vast majority. The only part he and I don't see eye to eye on is the federalist Libertarian slant. And that is only because my orientation is closer to Marxism than anything else. IMO, the systematic and institutional problems that TimJ so skilfully elucidates are a direct consequence of organizing society for production for profit. I don't think these problems CAN be fixed, because they are part and parcel of the system itself. The only way to fix these problems and many others, is to replace the current system of production for profit with a system based on democratically controlled production for use.

Sorry, but my personal experience disproves it.
We have a glut of jobs, not enough people to fill them. A job requires work, and no matter what, there's some folks who would rather be taken care of at a bare minimum level than go to that extreme.
I am sure there are exceptions to every rule. But they are exceptions, not the rule.
I commute through the small poor area of this town every day. my schedule is sporadic: sometimes i go home at 2pm, sometimes 10pm. No matter what, if the weather is nice, there are a lot of obviously able-bodied people lounging around, not looking for work.
My cleaning crew has a terrible time retaining people, apaprently for a lot of the $7/hr crowd, 15hrs a week is just too much. Some of these folks are 30ish, able, guys living with their parents, nothing better to do than watch tv.
Maybe I have been poisoned. But so far my personal experiences have re-enforced the notion that no matter how cynical I become, i can't keep up.
Don't get me wrong, I wish all these people well, I just resent that most plans attempting to help the poor require me to help pay for it....

I work with a guy from Africa here with a green card. We are both Software Engineers. Anyway, he's lived all over Europe and the US and he constantly re-iterates how lazy people are here and is amazed at the levels of poverty people will deal with without moving on to find better living conditions. He said he sees it back in Africa too but not as bad as what he has seen here.

He guessed that it was the fear of the unknown that keeps people from moving on. The rational that it could always be worse.

I work with a guy from Africa here with a green card. We are both Software Engineers. Anyway, he's lived all over Europe and the US and he constantly re-iterates how lazy people are here and is amazed at the levels of poverty people will deal with without moving on to find better living conditions. He said he sees it back in Africa too but not as bad as what he has seen here.

He guessed that it was the fear of the unknown that keeps people from moving on. The rational that it could always be worse.

I work for a very global company: 3.4 percent of workforce is in US. Many of my office coworkers are from other countries. As a mid-level manager for the company, almost all of my "extended coworkers" (i.e. people in similar postions around the world) are non-US.

Their comments re-enforce your point; many, many people here are LAZY!

We are fortunate in that we are a rich enough society that you can get away with being VERY lazy and still not go hungry, not freeze...

This is not discussion, your posts are largely pollution. You make no friends and influence no people by throwing mud, and rabidly attacking the OP as above. I assume you are taking the time to write in such length and detail because you hope to influence others on this board. Please start showing enough maturity to debate in a reasonable manner. This is doing the forums no credit.

You have labeled those who disagree or question you as "wrong on a basic level", "utter fool", and "small-minded"! "I'm sorry, some things I just can't be kind and accomodating any more". You are very clear that you consider your opinion on the matter to be so very superior , that you will no longer discuss it! I would say, sir, that you are the small-minded, because I at least wish to debate.

We're not having a discussion. You haven't discussed anything. You've stated your opinion on some things and that's about it. You also seem to think telling me you're happy is germane to the topic, like you're making a point. See I keep telling you, in not so many words, that ain't a discussion.

The real solution requires breaking away from the motorcar lifestyle once and for all.
Back to the OP....
this country's current society & infrastructure was built on the assumption of cheap gas.
Before then, only the "rich" had horses and were able to "commute" to work! The rest of the poor schmucks had to live within walking distance of work!:D
As soon as gas got cheap, and Mr Ford started selling Model T's, the current situation started to evolve.
If and when it gets expensive, things will change again... it may be painful, much more so than what we see now.

Most of the poor are not able-bodied adults. Most have a disability, physical or mental, that makes it hard or even impossible for them to work.

I think you're way off on that statement. I've never seen any information to corroborate that.

I, for one find TimJ's posts insightful, informative and to the point. He seems to be far better informed and far more thoughtful and analytical than the vast majority. The only part he and I don't see eye to eye on is the federalist Libertarian slant. And that is only because my orientation is closer to Marxism than anything else. IMO, the systematic and institutional problems that TimJ so skilfully elucidates are a direct consequence of organizing society for production for profit. I don't think these problems CAN be fixed, because they are part and parcel of the system itself. The only way to fix these problems and many others, is to replace the current system of production for profit with a system based on democratically controlled production for use.

Although I wouldn't label myself a "marxist", I agree with this poster. TimJ may come off as curt, however his analysis of modern society is on point.

As for the original USAToday article, it's obvious (as someone pointed out earlier) that they were going for the most extreme examples possible -- I mean come on Tuscumbia, AL?! Population 7800, whose main claim to fame is the Helen Keller Museum? Yeah.

Anyway, what TimJ and I think Roody touched on are correct; it's no easy task to get up & make an instant life change when you have various issues that range from screwed up family history, lack of financial acumen to functional illiteracy (among a ton of others) to contend with. I'm not saying folks are all victims by any means, however I know from being around many individuals in this category that we can't always look at life through our own little perspective.

Oh yeah, to the guy talking about $19-$20 jobs no one wants, how about you post a link or something if it's a national company? I know quite a few people that would be up for it. A lot of you all are under the false impression that everyone knows that your job (or any other job you know of) is hiring and that people just don't want 'em.....or maybe the job just sucks.

I work with a guy from Africa here with a green card. We are both Software Engineers. Anyway, he's lived all over Europe and the US and he constantly re-iterates how lazy people are here and is amazed at the levels of poverty people will deal with without moving on to find better living conditions. He said he sees it back in Africa too but not as bad as what he has seen here.

He guessed that it was the fear of the unknown that keeps people from moving on. The rational that it could always be worse.

Yeah, I hear that same thing all the time too. And it's true in a way, but the US is not a third world nation with no middle class and no power in the masses. It's apples and oranges, in a way. We grow up with the power to shape and influence the country we live in to a degree, someone from a 3rd world country with a corrupt and/or impoverished government does not. Someone like that comes here and it's simple- you have the opportunity to work your ass off and actually be able to afford clothes and food, a place to live, etc., and a lot of places reward working your ass off so things get even better.

Yeah, I agree, Americans aren't generally like that. But there's laziness and there's being an American. I thought, growing up, that America was about potential. I think it has been, off and on, but more so than anything now it's just a place to make a buck. I don't make a lot of money, probably because a lot of my energy, as much as I can muster, goes to writing and filmmaking and stuff like that. Am I lazy for not working my ass off, pursuing more money? To your friend I probably am. To a bunch of people I probably am. Personally I wish I had the balls to be even "lazier" so I could devote more time to what I love to do. I used to feel that's what this country was about, but more and more, especially as art becomes more and more commodified, I feel the answer is "no".

USA: Taxation is theft because the only important thing is wealth.

I, for one find TimJ's posts insightful, informative and to the point. He seems to be far better informed and far more thoughtful and analytical than the vast majority. The only part he and I don't see eye to eye on is the federalist Libertarian slant.

Me? I'm federalist libertarian? I think libertarian is french for dumbass.

Everyone has to make certain choices in how they are going to live their lives.

I chose to locate where I am primarily for the fishing and outdoors. When my house got knocked down by the high water from Hurricane Dennis two years ago, the week before we were to move in, we chose a place 10 miles up the road. Because of my choices I have several excellent places to fish, both freshwater and inshore saltwater, canoeing/kayaking, hunting, swimming, golf, the job I chose after moving in, etc., all within bicycle distance, which means any of it can cost me as little as nothing per trip.

I set up my life to support what is important to me. Obviously the people refered to in the OP set up their lives on the false premise of always having a car and cheap fuel. They can make the choices to set up their lives to support what is important to them, just like I did, but they have to want to do this. That is the problem. Most people don't want to make choices, particularly not if the choices involve having to make a sacrifice.

I am a firm believer that people set themselves up to induce their own problems.

Me? I'm federalist libertarian? I think libertarian is french for dumbass.

Sorry, I guess I misinterpreted the comment about 'maintenance of the republic'. :o

Everyone has to make certain choices in how they are going to live their lives.

I chose to locate where I am primarily for the fishing and outdoors. When my house got knocked down by the high water from Hurricane Dennis two years ago, the week before we were to move in, we chose a place 10 miles up the road. Because of my choices I have several excellent places to fish, both freshwater and inshore saltwater, canoeing/kayaking, hunting, swimming, golf, the job I chose after moving in, etc., all within bicycle distance, which means any of it can cost me as little as nothing per trip.

I set up my life to support what is important to me. Obviously the people refered to in the OP set up their lives on the false premise of always having a car and cheap fuel. They can make the choices to set up their lives to support what is important to them, just like I did, but they have to want to do this. That is the problem. Most people don't want to make choices, particularly not if the choices involve having to make a sacrifice.

I am a firm believer that people set themselves up to induce their own problems.

We're all heros, in our own little ways.

I too am sick of the news reports of people *****ing about gas prices while standing in front of a shiny new Navigator or F-350 Turbo. Maybe they have to own these cars and live 50 miles from work, I don't know, I don't care. It boggles my mind that they or the TV station think that I care.

Life is a series of choices, and the consequences of those choices. People who think otherwise and want to get something for nothing drive me up the wall.

I will strongly oppose any effort to use my tax dollars to support people making decisions for which they don't want to be held accountable. People should be forced to make a decision to adapt in one way or another.

It is a shame that the poor are feeling a squeeze at the gas pump. But I can't help but notice every time I ride the bus to work instead of bike, that it is cramed full of people who have found a way to work and live without using a car for commuting...

We're all heros, in our own little ways.
Well, the point is (can't believe I have to explain this) that if I can do it, anyone can.

I actually make very little money, but am very wealthy. I made these choices and set my life up the way I want to live it, in a manner that I can support. Therefore, I speak from experience. Anybody can do it, it's not rocket science.

I'd just about bet money that nobody told Mitzi she has to live 66 miles from her work, and nobody told Ester she has to spend $300+/month for gas. These are choices that they made on their own as responsible adults. Now they have to pay for their choices, but do they take the responsibility of making the decisions to make the changes to their lifestyle? To a lifestyle they can support? I don't know, maybe they did, but most people in this country and that situation wouldn't. Most of these people that whine and cry to the media about how poor and downtrodden they are, are merely victims of their own apathy.

Well, the point is (can't believe I have to explain this) that if I can do it, anyone can.

I actually make very little money, but am very wealthy. I made these choices and set my life up the way I want to live it, in a manner that I can support. Therefore, I speak from experience. Anybody can do it, it's not rocket science.

I'd just about bet money that nobody told Mitzi she has to live 66 miles from her work, and nobody told Ester she has to spend $300+/month for gas. These are choices that they made on their own as responsible adults. Now they have to pay for their choices, but do they take the responsibility of making the decisions to make the changes to their lifestyle? To a lifestyle they can support? I don't know, maybe they did, but most people in this country and that situation wouldn't. Most of these people that whine and cry to the media about how poor and downtrodden they are, are merely victims of their own apathy.

You didn't have to explain. I knew that's what you meant.

I'd just about bet money that nobody told Mitzi she has to live 66 miles from her work, and nobody told Ester she has to spend $300+/month for gas. These are choices that they made on their own as responsible adults. Now they have to pay for their choices, but do they take the responsibility of making the decisions to make the changes to their lifestyle? To a lifestyle they can support? I don't know, maybe they did, but most people in this country and that situation wouldn't. Most of these people that whine and cry to the media about how poor and downtrodden they are, are merely victims of their own apathy.
For as long as I have been alive a car/truck/suv is how you got from point a to point b there are very very few communities where you have any other option unless you happen to pedal and I for one never have seen anything where someone was telling me to go out and pedal unless I happen to be looking for that information.
Every marketer around here commercial/roadsign/newspaper/magazine is telling people to move out in the burbs and find a nicer less expensive house. Nearly every representative is saying we should have lower energy prices. Elected officials are saying that people in the US shouldn't have to lower their quality of living so why should anyone think any differently? So there are lots of people saying their lifestyle is fine and heck really they need more more more.
For decades the price of energy has raised very slowly. Yes there is the saying past performance does not indicate future performance but the increase is tremendous in a short time given how everything is built around cheap gas.
When I moved to Texas just 3 years ago Gas was under $1.50. Now some signs I see here are $3 a gallon at the same station. If she saw a similar increase that means $150 a month extra for gas then she was paying just 3 years ago. Likely 2 full days wages for her after appropriate deductions.
Because of how ingrained driving long distances is to everywhere I've ever lived changing transportation models for people isn't as easy as some of you would like to think. There are over 4,000 people that work at the 3 locations near me. Other then me every single person drives whether it is the person I know who drive less then 1/4 mile to the one that drives 90 miles. I have the only bicycle around per security and my own observations..

^^ Just cause everyone else is doing it doesnt make it right, and sometimes one must make that choice for themselves. Seems like a disingenuous copout to me to blame conditions or what everyone else is doing. Sometimes you have to think and act for yourself, those that cant or wont, will suffer somehow no matter what is going on.

energy could be free and unlimited and some people still wouldnt have enough of whatever it is they want or desire or even really need

Elected officials are saying that people in the US shouldn't have to lower their quality of living so why should anyone think any differently? So there are lots of people saying their lifestyle is fine and heck really they need more more more.

This reminds me of a couple things. The first time I thought "something is really wrong" in regards to the Bush administration was when we were (supposedly) having an energy crunch here in CA and there were rolling blackouts that got a lot of national airtime. That summer was supposed to be real hot, and a reporter asked Dick Cheney if people should try to conserve their use of energy. He smirked a 'what a foolish thing to say' smirk and said. "No." She was kind of taken aback, obviously she expected some pleasant "we're all in this together" kind of platitude, so she stumbled "No? People shouldn't-" (paraphrasing, it was back in 2001 pre 9-11) "No. People don't need to conserve energy" and then something like- it's a supply problem, there's no reason to do anything different. Of course we now know the entire crisis was manufactured by energy trading companies that only existed thanks to massive deregulation... but I digress.

Another thing it reminds me of is when after 9-11, when the president could have asked anything from this country, any sacrifice, and noble pursuit for the common good and we would have given it to him, he asked us to "Go shopping."

It's awesome, super awesome that some of us- the uber-mensch that we are- have figured out a way to not drive much, if at all, but good lord... is it really surprising that not driving as a lifestyle choice doesn't occur to most people? The citizens of a nation who's president, in the face of a frightening, bewildering national crisis, asks everyone to go shopping? I mean... we elected this guy a whole 1 times, and it's surprising people think of life as job, house car? Come on...

^^ Just cause everyone else is doing it doesnt make it right, and sometimes one must make that choice for themselves. Seems like a disingenuous copout to me to blame conditions or what everyone else is doing. Sometimes you have to think and act for yourself, those that cant or wont, will suffer somehow no matter what is going on.

energy could be free and unlimited and some people still wouldnt have enough of whatever it is they want or desire or even really need

Can we just sort this out so you guys don't have to keep repeating the same thing over and over again?

We get it- people's lives are the product of their choices, they have no one to blame but themselves, they should stop whining... plus- look at me, I'm not like that, everyone could be like me, but they aren't (pssst- am I not special?).

We get it. Everyone gets it. You can find that same "argument" on every forum on every server in the universe. I've heard that repeated in bars, cars, buses, planes, trains, malls, river falls and mile-high skyscrapers. It exists everywhere and at every time and it has never changed and has never been original, it simply is. And just as it is on the planet Zizziplex so to here can no one can argue with said "argument" because... it isn't an argument. It's just a statement of personal opinion.

We get it. Let's call it: Standard Conservative/Libertarian Personal Responsibility Statement #1. You can call it SCLPRS 1 for short. As in, you come here on the forum, see someone give an example or offer data that you don't agree with and just reply by saying:

"SCLPRS 1 to that."

OK?

Can we just sort this out so you guys don't have to keep repeating the same thing over and over again?

We get it- people's lives are the product of their choices, they have no one to blame but themselves, they should stop whining... plus- look at me, I'm not like that, everyone could be like me, but they aren't (pssst- am I not special?).

We get it. Everyone gets it. You can find that same "argument" on every forum on every server in the universe. I've heard that repeated in bars, cars, buses, planes, trains, malls, river falls and mile-high skyscrapers. It exists everywhere and at every time and it has never changed and has never been original, it simply is. And just as it is on the planet Zizziplex so to here can no one can argue with said "argument" because... it isn't an argument. It's just a statement of personal opinion.

We get it. Let's call it: Standard Conservative/Libertarian Personal Responsibility Statement #1. You can call it SCLPRS 1 for short. As in, you come here on the forum, see someone give an example or offer data that you don't agree with and just reply by saying:

"SCLPRS 1 to that."

OK?

SLTHS 1!

If I could go completely car-free, I could move to near my work. However, as I said, I'd have to go COMPLETELY car-free, to get rid of insurance and all of that. And, once I would go car-free, there's no turning back - once you've had no car insurance for more than 30 days, you might as well be a triple-DUI driver starting back up, with how the insurance companies rape you.

As a side issue, if you want to avoid this problem, see about joining a car sharing group. If you NEED a car, its there, for a low monthly fee (sometimes zero) to preserve your insurance record. YMMV. if there is a local group checkout the details.

As a side issue, if you want to avoid this problem, see about joining a car sharing group. If you NEED a car, its there, for a low monthly fee (sometimes zero) to preserve your insurance record. YMMV. if there is a local group checkout the details.
Unfortunately, there is not a local group. There's rideshares (read: carpooling), but those aren't going to do what I need.

Can we just sort this out so you guys don't have to keep repeating the same thing over and over again?

We get it- people's lives are the product of their choices, they have no one to blame but themselves, they should stop whining... plus- look at me, I'm not like that, everyone could be like me, but they aren't (pssst- am I not special?).

We get it. Everyone gets it. You can find that same "argument" on every forum on every server in the universe. I've heard that repeated in bars, cars, buses, planes, trains, malls, river falls and mile-high skyscrapers. It exists everywhere and at every time and it has never changed and has never been original, it simply is. And just as it is on the planet Zizziplex so to here can no one can argue with said "argument" because... it isn't an argument. It's just a statement of personal opinion.

We get it. Let's call it: Standard Conservative/Libertarian Personal Responsibility Statement #1. You can call it SCLPRS 1 for short. As in, you come here on the forum, see someone give an example or offer data that you don't agree with and just reply by saying:

"SCLPRS 1 to that."

OK?

lessons are repeated until learned, and apparently not everyone gets it, otherwise we wouldnt be discussing it and the OP's article never would have been written

sure its basic common sense, no doubt about that, however, facing the problems this country has, seems some basic common sense actions are in order instead of idiot sound bites from guys like Bush or Cheney suggesting we go shopping

rising gas prices have done way more than just ding some poor americans wallets, in some countries its prettymuch a life or death situation, does anyone think they didnt go thru the same personal responsibility discussions at some point? its part of the process, crisis brings this stuff out bigtime, heck this is just the beginning

all you can do is help those that will take it, and detach yourself from the others and watch them flounder, and step one is verbally whacking a few people in the head and making it abundantly clear some of the realities of life-------one of which is this little upward blip in prices may have stung a bit, but some people in poor places on the planet are now going without electricity, lesson here, its the same behavior that got all of them in the same predicament, and it WILL get much much worse

Can we just sort this out so you guys don't have to keep repeating the same thing over and over again?

We get it- people's lives are the product of their choices, they have no one to blame but themselves, they should stop whining... plus- look at me, I'm not like that, everyone could be like me, but they aren't (pssst- am I not special?).

We get it. Everyone gets it. You can find that same "argument" on every forum on every server in the universe. I've heard that repeated in bars, cars, buses, planes, trains, malls, river falls and mile-high skyscrapers. It exists everywhere and at every time and it has never changed and has never been original, it simply is. And just as it is on the planet Zizziplex so to here can no one can argue with said "argument" because... it isn't an argument. It's just a statement of personal opinion.

We get it. Let's call it: Standard Conservative/Libertarian Personal Responsibility Statement #1. You can call it SCLPRS 1 for short. As in, you come here on the forum, see someone give an example or offer data that you don't agree with and just reply by saying:

"SCLPRS 1 to that."

OK?

Has nothing to do with whether your conservative, libertarian, liberal democrat, fascist, communist or even marxist-lenninist. I always find it funny, when people talk about needing to drive 60 miles for a job paying at least $8/hr, well, it means your either not looking hard enough locally, or you should move somewhere else. Then again, when gas gets expensive, one needs to use that thing above their neck for more then making their ball cap high enough off their shoulders.

There are four solutions, to not having enough money from your job:
1) get a different job that pays more.
2) cut expenses.
3) marry someone considerably richer then you are, or at least has a good paying job:D
4) any two or more of the above combined.

Okay, get a better job, 2/3rds of all jobs are never advertised, usually because the employer either knows someone or goes through the CV pile on the old filing cabinet, picks 2-3 people (usually out of first dozen or so), interviews those, picks one, and hires. Throws the rest of the stack in the recycling bin, and starts over, with the rest of the dozen. This means that friends (except work friends) and relatives should know your looking. Update your CV, and send it to anyone and everyone, pound the pavement.

For many people their biggest expense is housing, and not far behind, is transportation, although with higher gas prices, those two could soon reverse places. Not much you can do about housing, except maybe a room mate. Transportation, automobiles are expensive, to operate a late model, mid sized car, 12,000 miles a year is about $8,000/year (including payments, insurance, licence, fuel, maintenance, etc.) An older car like mine, doesn't have payments, but there are more maintenance costs, given the same distance, probably totals between $2000 and $4000/yr depending on the age and condition, distance driven, etc.

So, if we can eliminate the car, we can eliminate the car expense, alternatives are walking, cycling, a smaller motorized vehicle (motorcycle or scooter) and transit. Walking is the cheapest, a bicycle is next, transit probably comes next, a scooter comes next, and a motorcycle would be the most expensive. However each has limits to it's practical per-trip range (one way), walking about 1 mile, bicycle about 15 miles, scooter about 30 miles, and motorcycle (same as automobile), transit is limited to it's operating area.

SLTHS 1!

lol!

Kudos to TimJ for his cleverness.

it amazes me how anyone could not agree that the SCLPRS is a bit more than an "opinion" -
it is a logical conclusion. It is self-evedent. It is an observation of the world around us. It is proven again and again, day after day, since the beginning of human history...

to deny the obvious is asinine. denial of the truth doesn't change the truth.

Now quit yer whining :D

Wogsterca,

that was an excellent post.
I don't know about the validity of the costs of the automobiles, but that should not take away from the post.
I would change one thing. It is not that difficult to walk 2 miles. Most people can do that in about 30 minutes without much of a sweat, if any.

It is not that difficult to walk 2 miles. Most people can do that in about 30 minutes without much of a sweat, if any.
Done much walking with several children, especially when one or more is sick, tired and/or cranky; or disabled people or with people with health problems; in inclement weather?

Done much walking with several children, especially when one or more is sick, tired and/or cranky; or disabled people or with people with health problems; in inclement weather?
Please don't ask that, in his world they kill the old and crippled, it never snows, and nobody ever gets sick.

Years ago I was car free because of poverty, now I'm car free by choice. The primary way out of poverty was education. Formal education came second to education on what roads would lead me out. So I disagree with some facet of most of the posts on this thread. Yes I took personal responsibility but from other poor people I learned about public assistance. I had to hitch hike 30 miles to the food stamp office without knowing whether or not I qualified. When I expressed my shame at applying the woman said "Oh no, you're the kind of person we like to help. You're a good investment for the government. See, you're working nights and taking classes in the day, if the government can keep you in school you'll get a better job and pay way more in taxes than the government gives in assistance." She was right, I've paid way more in taxes than I got in food stamps. The government got a much better return on the food stamps than they would have gotten on student loans.

So people need accurate information on what their choices are, some people need a hand up, and they need the personal responsibility to follow through on one of the positive choices. I myself also needed faith that my choices would work for me.

I read the original post as complaining that some people haven't been informed of some of their options. Of course our current infrastructure makes the car-free option difficult.

When I was poor moving was easier because I didn't have much to move. One of the skills that poor people have to learn is to delay gratification. Somehow I could always save a little from my tiny paychecks. I could invest the money in tuition or use it for emergencies.

funny ILTB semed to miss the MOST qualifier in the above post

as in most people..........not the disabled, not the sick, not the crippled, not little kids

get a grip ILTB

people survived for thousands of years without cars or mass transit and havent evolved out of walking just yet, it still works

I have someone working for me now that drives 78 miles roundtrip. This is for a low wage retail job. $7 an hour part time (6 hour shifts, 5 days per week). Mapquest it; Ionia, MI to Hastings, MI. I just counted and there are 21 direct competitors of mine within a closer driving distance, and probably thousands of other retailers. I can't think of one single large retailer that isn't constantly hiring at the same (or better) pay. Imagine $42 per day - taxes and driving expenses. I've even offered to call other stores in my co-op and buying groups to get a closer job. not even enough ambition to take a job offer...

How can anyone say this is a result of "The System" instead of a series of bad decisions by this individual?

I have someone working for me now that drives 78 miles roundtrip. This is for a low wage retail job. $7 an hour part time (6 hour shifts, 5 days per week). Mapquest it; Ionia, MI to Hastings, MI. I just counted and there are 21 direct competitors of mine within a closer driving distance, and probably thousands of other retailers. I can't think of one single large retailer that isn't constantly hiring at the same (or better) pay. Imagine $42 per day - taxes and driving expenses. I've even offered to call other stores in my co-op and buying groups to get a closer job. not even enough ambition to take a job offer...

How can anyone say this is a result of "The System" instead of a series of bad decisions by this individual?

SLTHS 1!

I have someone working for me now that drives 78 miles roundtrip.

How can anyone say this is a result of "The System" instead of a series of bad decisions by this individual?
a coworker of mine (semi-professional, maybe $17/hr) drives 160mi round trip in her new Hummer H3. she bought it to "be safe". she told me she quit putting money in her 401k plan in order to pay for gas

but she's a grown woman, capable of making her own decisions :rolleyes:

Done much walking with several children, especially when one or more is sick, tired and/or cranky; or disabled people or with people with health problems; in inclement weather?

I regularly walk a couple of miles with my daughter in a pushchair and my wife does it at least twice a week because she doesn't drive. My sister has a triple buggy enabling her to take all 3 of her children for a walk at once.

I live in England so certainly know about inclement weather. A range of items such as coats and umbrellas are available to mitigate this problem.

Done much walking with several children, especially when one or more is sick, tired and/or cranky; or disabled people or with people with health problems; in inclement weather?
You forgot uphill, on gravel, without shoes, and everyone has a blister on their little toe except for one guy who's walking on his hands because he doesn't have any legs.

I know quite a few people who are unable to (or just don't!) drive a car for one reason or another. I'm about a 95% member of that group myself; my neck doesn't work well enough for me to drive safely without paying for a car trip with a week or two of traction. I get around just fine, happy or cranky, rain or shine. Cars aren't really necessary. In fact, the giant pavement moats filled with lunging steel rhinos surrounding anywhere someone who doesn't drive may need to go is a major inconvenience. I walk 1/3 of a mile to the store, through a parking lot, crosswalk, down the street, crosswalk, driveway, and another parking lot. The entire distance is comprised of driving space. And I'm lucky to live this close. Most people who are unable to drive are separated from simple day to day tasks by quite a bit more pavement. It's no wonder people think we need cars to get around, the whole world seems built for it.
But people who can't drive get around; to the doctor when they're sick, to work, when the weather's bad, even when they're cranky. Even children do just fine when parents let them give it a shot. What's wrong with fit, healthy adults doing the same?

people survived for thousands of years without cars or mass transit and havent evolved out of walking just yet, it still works

Yes and people lived to be 35, 70% percent of children died before age 10, and a minor ailment could mean death. Do you want to go back? I don't.

Yes and people lived to be 35, 70% percent of children died before age 10, and a minor ailment could mean death. Do you want to go back? I don't.
In my mind, this kind of blanket statement doesnt work. Yes, some things have gotten better. Some things have gotten worse too. We have invented automobiles which let us drive great distances, but they are also polluting our environment. Medicine has advanced to a great degree, but this is only good if you can pay for the medical treatment needed. Walking or biking, however, should not even be an argument. They are the simplest modes of transportation, and therefore, the cheapest and most reliable. I think that we should use the technologies that benefit us the most WITHOUT costing us more than they are worth in time, money, or both.

And, the extreme population growth that was caused by life expectancies increasing has caused major issues - food issues, overcrowding, pollution, etc., etc.

However, I don't think walking or biking would reduce life expectancies. It would make people MORE physically fit, MORE immune to diseases, and it would INCREASE life expectancies.

HOWEVER, it would do it in a way that would reduce pollution (obviously) and food issues (people would be packed into a tighter space for easier commuting, so more farmland would be available.) It would, however, increase overcrowding.

I have someone working for me now that drives 78 miles roundtrip. This is for a low wage retail job. $7 an hour part time (6 hour shifts, 5 days per week). Mapquest it; Ionia, MI to Hastings, MI. I just counted and there are 21 direct competitors of mine within a closer driving distance, and probably thousands of other retailers. I can't think of one single large retailer that isn't constantly hiring at the same (or better) pay. Imagine $42 per day - taxes and driving expenses. I've even offered to call other stores in my co-op and buying groups to get a closer job. not even enough ambition to take a job offer...

How can anyone say this is a result of "The System" instead of a series of bad decisions by this individual?

You know, I use qualifiers like "may" or "could"... I don't argue specifics but rather the general... and all anyone comes back with is "here's my specific example, you are therefore wrong." Subtlety is completely lost on you guys, it drives me nuts.

I've never argued the women in the article had problems because of the "system". I never argued all these sorts of problems are due to the "system". I don't get it, are you guys computers? Are you thinking in binary? Is anything outside of 1 and 0 just beyond your grasp?

In short I've basically been sayin, 'you don't know what their specifics are, a lot of these problems are institutional and systemic, you can't make the blanket statement that any poor person who drives is an idiot, because context is key. Also, thinking in such simple, easy terms inhibits understanding and if you don't understand how things work nothing will or can ever change.' Which is a broad challenge to your assumptions, and you guys come back with "see this specific example, your claim is wrong!"

No discussions ever happen here because you're not interested in thinking, you're interested in taking a stand and winning. I'm not even taking a stand.

Done much walking with several children, especially when one or more is sick, tired and/or cranky; or disabled people or with people with health problems; in inclement weather?

No...I rides me bike to work...8 miles, uphill, in the snow both ways...even in July :p

lol!

Kudos to TimJ for his cleverness.

it amazes me how anyone could not agree that the SCLPRS is a bit more than an "opinion" -
it is a logical conclusion. It is self-evedent. It is an observation of the world around us. It is proven again and again, day after day, since the beginning of human history...

to deny the obvious is asinine. denial of the truth doesn't change the truth.

Now quit yer whining :D

What it is is a complete and utter lack of thinking on your part. It's a catchphrase, a bumper sticker. There's no reasoning behind it, no consideration, no thought at all. You think there is. You think it has a deep, resonant, universal meaning. It's a "truth". Because you think that, I don't think I have the skill to ever explain to you why it's meaningless.

"Personal responsibility" is an abstraction, it has no meaning outside of a context, yet you seem to think it's something definite and real, like a platonic idea or a stone. No. What it is is an catchphrase people pull out of their ass in lieu of actually thinking about something. There's a whole mythology surrounding it too. to such an extent anyone can pull it out and POOF!, problem solved, discussion over. It's like a magic trick. A politician can get in front of a TV and "personal responsibility" this and "personal responsibility" that all night, and suckers like you think it means something, think it answers some question. Frankly I think it's pathetic.

You're being played for a fool, led around with a simple catchphrase, thinking it's a powerful, liberating truth. The thing about abstract, meaningless catchphrases, especially ones that obtain a sort of mythcal cult status (your "truth"), is they make the perfect smokescreen. X is "personal responsibility" one week, the next week Y is "personal responsibility", a couple weeks later A, then B, etc., etc., etc. To a thinking person X is X and Y is Y, to you they're all part of this timeless truth. You're way, way down the rabbit hole, and I'm not nearly smart enough to talk you out of it.

I've even offered to call other stores in my co-op and buying groups to get a closer job. not even enough ambition to take a job offer...


This seems to be an interesting exception to what I have seen. What I have observed in the past is that when an employer hears that someone is looking at other job offers, they will be fired (I have been threatened with being fired when potential employers have called current employers for reference checks [I was working at Imagistics, an office equipment company, and was applying for Social Worker positions]). The idea, of course, is to keep employees afraid to look at other jobs.