here's a photo from a 70 miler out on the Kitsap Peninsula on Sunday.
Highway speed road (state highway, i think), signed bike route. edge of road buffer, bike lane. Road and bike lane and buffer were not significantly different in degrees of debris.
Where does a vehicular cyclist ride? Where would YOU ride this road?
Is there some compelling reason to avoid this bike lane - or even riding the buffer like the red jerseyed cyclists - EXCEPT paranoia about inadverdant drift? (as an aside to noisebeam, this shows bike lane stripes NOT ending 200 feet before intersections- theres plenty of minor intersections that a bike lane doesn't have to end like noisebeam's unrealistic desire of 200 feet before all intersections.)
Would you prefer a narrow laned highway speed road with no shoulder, or would you prefer riding on this type of well accomodated state highway route?
Does a vehicular cyclist choose the bike lane in this scenario? would john f. be riding in the bike lane? is it possible to be riding 'vehicularily' in the bike lane on this road?
flipped4bikes
06-05-07, 07:35 AM
Hmmm, duh, the well accomodated state highway route with BL?
genec
06-05-07, 07:49 AM
Nice. Too bad this doesn't exist everywhere.
About a year ago I went before a group of north county supervisors in an effort to get a wide road built as part of a new county loop. The goal of the project was to tie some county roads together to make a complete off freeway back country loop, so that in case of fire or other road closure, one could take an alternate route. I went before that board and asked that the road be made wide enough to share with cyclists... who readily rode the other connecting roads which were narrow. The current situation is such that a cyclist must take the lane.
I presented the argument that a wider road would allow it to be shared by cyclists vice the current situation where cyclists must take the lane and motorists might find themselves delayed. There was no mention of bike lanes... just a slightly wider road was all that was asked for.
The response was quite negative.
Fortunatly, the request went all the way to the county seat where making the road wider "was taken under advisement."
Sometimes getting just a few extra feet of roadway can be a real battle.
The contrast between Oregon and California for instance is quite eye opening... with OR having nice wide shoulders well marked and with huge signs along 101... and just over the imaginary "dashed line" to the south into CA, the shoulder dissapears and the signs become irregular, and quite small.
sbhikes
06-05-07, 08:23 AM
I would ride in the bike lane. I like to keep those motorists on their toes rather than cringe over to the far right.
We have a similar set-up on US 101 from the Ventura County Line to La Conchita. The US 101 is not a pretty country road like that. It's 65 mph highway that becomes freeway before and after the bike lane part. Many people do opt to ride with the bike lane separating them from the traffic. But I ride in the bike lane there as well.
Bekologist
06-05-07, 11:48 PM
this bike lane is pretty non-contraversial, eh?
Vehicular cyclists can ride in a bike lane, vehicularily.
vehicular cyclists can advocate for bike lanes.
joejack951
06-06-07, 11:04 AM
Those look like some pretty skinny tired bikes. If I was on my fun bike with $40 a piece tires, I'd be out in the traffic lane avoiding the debris in the bike lane/buffer for as long as possible. Sightlines look good so I could even move over before faster traffic had to slow if I was so inclined.The right side cyclist in the third picture sure could use some better sightlines to that hidden driveway. My guess is that whoever lives there pulls at least into the buffer zone to make a turn and I doubt they are checking for a high speed road cyclist first.
zeytoun
06-06-07, 12:00 PM
The right side cyclist in the third picture sure could use some better sightlines to that hidden driveway.
Do you mean the part of the driveway that is not in the picture is hidden from viewing the road?
Helmet Head
06-06-07, 12:10 PM
Does everyone see the potential conflict in the 3rd picture between the front cyclist and the oncoming minivan? It's the first thing I noticed. Anyone else?
They are both approaching a driveway to the cyclist's right. If the van driver is turning left in that driveway, he needs to yield to the cyclist. But in order to yield to him, he needs to see and notice him. Will the van driver see and notice the cyclist? Where is the van driver most likely paying the most attention looking for potential conflicts? The traffic lane, bike lane or buffer? Is he more or less likely to see and notice the cyclist if the cyclist is in the buffer, bike lane, or traffic lane?
I would be in the traffic lane except when faster same direction traffic is present or approaching, in which case I would temporarily move into the bike lane, but only after passing the place where a right turn can be made, or sooner but only if I can determine that same dir traffic is definitely moving too fast to turn right into that place.
joejack951
06-06-07, 12:12 PM
Do you mean the part of the driveway that is not in the picture is hidden from viewing the road?
I'm calling it a hidden driveway based on the driveways that I've seen that have "hidden driveway" signage. You would not be able to see someone approaching the roadway at a reasonable speed with the intention to stop in the buffer zone no matter where you were. The sightlines are going to better the further you are from the driveway though. Because of the trees, a driver attempting to turn left or right would most likely to have to pull out past the edge marking the end of their driveway and the start of the shoulder to get a good view of traffic. I would not want to be riding in that space where someone would not be expecting traffic.
noisebeam
06-06-07, 12:27 PM
Does everyone see the potential conflict in the 3rd picture between the front cyclist and the oncoming minivan? It's the first thing I noticed. Anyone else?
They are both approaching a driveway to the cyclist's right. If the van driver is turning left in that driveway, he needs to yield to the cyclist. But in order to yield to him, he needs to see and notice him. Will the van driver see and notice the cyclist? Where is the van driver most likely paying the most attention looking for potential conflicts? The traffic lane, bike lane or buffer? Is he more or less likely to see and notice the cyclist if the cyclist is in the buffer, bike lane, or traffic lane?
Uhhh, I'm pretty sure that the lead cyclist is turning right. Thats why they are in the far right 'lane' instead of the bike lane.
Even so I'd not be so far right as the mini van driver may try and 'share the turn' at the same time and I also find I get a better line if I don't start my turn so close to the right edge.
edit: I just noted that the same cyclist is in far right shoulder in the other pics, maybe they are not turning after all.
Al
noisebeam
06-06-07, 12:32 PM
(as an aside to noisebeam, this shows bike lane stripes NOT ending 200 feet before intersections- theres plenty of minor intersections that a bike lane doesn't have to end like noisebeam's unrealistic desire of 200 feet before all intersections.)
Hey if your going to request a response from me either do it in a thread I am already active in, or otherwise give me notice. I can't monitor all threads, just now was the first I checked this out out.
Yeah, I still think the stripe should end before these driveways and side streets. Why not? On a road like this drivers are going to continue their left biased line for that 200' when the stripe ends and they are not going to suddenly forget the message the BL supposedly communicates that cyclists may be on road.
The ending stripe also serves as heads up to cyclists that there is an intersection and a reminder to check rear for turning vehicles.
Al
zeytoun
06-06-07, 12:38 PM
Because of the trees, a driver attempting to turn left or right would most likely to have to pull out past the edge marking the end of their driveway and the start of the shoulder to get a good view of traffic. I would not want to be riding in that space where someone would not be expecting traffic.
Ah, I thought you were talking about the driveway in the foreground, not the background.
Yes in general, one would probably like to ride farther from the curb to improve sightlines.
Of course, you and I do not know what the actual sightlines are for that bicyclist. Perhaps the cyclist has good lines and has easily seen that there are no cars approaching the intersection.
noisebeam
06-06-07, 01:21 PM
Yes in general, one would probably like to ride farther from the curb to improve sightlines.
Of course, you and I do not know what the actual sightlines are for that bicyclist. Perhaps the cyclist has good lines and has easily seen that there are no cars approaching the intersection.
What about the sightlines of a driver pulling out of driveway?
Al
sbhikes
06-06-07, 01:49 PM
Oh come on, nobody ever looks when they are backing up. That's for wimps.
Helmet Head
06-06-07, 01:51 PM
Uhhh, I'm pretty sure that the lead cyclist is turning right. Thats why they are in the far right 'lane' instead of the bike lane.
Even so I'd not be so far right as the mini van driver may try and 'share the turn' at the same time and I also find I get a better line if I don't start my turn so close to the right edge.
edit: I just noted that the same cyclist is in far right shoulder in the other pics, maybe they are not turning after all.
Al I don't think they're turning right, but I find it very interesting and revealing that you initially assumed they probably are. The point is, based on their positioning, it's a reasonable assumption to make, and is made by motorists all the time regarding cyclists who are positioned like these cyclists are, all too often resulting in left and right hooks and crosses. But most cyclists, like Bek, are apparently oblivious to how their lane positioning is a factor of miscommunication in these incidents.
Here is an example of what I'm talking about from this morning:
"The woman [driver] said she saw [the cyclist], but she didn't take a second look to see where he was before she went to make the right hand turn."
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=306327
noisebeam
06-06-07, 01:54 PM
I don't think they're turning right, but I find it very interesting and revealing that you initially assumed they probably are.
It was a quick glance, when I looked at the pics again it was clear they likely were not.
Also it is a static picture, from me in a drivers seat I probably would have seen a bit more of the situation unfold and not made such a wrong assumption.
Al
Helmet Head
06-06-07, 01:56 PM
It was a quick glance, when I looked at the pics again it was clear they likely were not.
Also it is a static picture, from me in a drivers seat I probably would have seen a bit more of the situation unfold and not made such a wrong assumption.
Al Maybe you wouldn't, but scads of motorists who have no clue about cyclist behavior likely would.
zeytoun
06-06-07, 02:01 PM
What about the sightlines of a driver pulling out of driveway?
If the cyclist can see there is no driver, then it is only a zen riddle.
If the cyclist can not see, and there may be a driver, then the cyclist should try to optimize sightlines.
noisebeam
06-06-07, 02:08 PM
If the cyclist can see there is no driver, then it is only a zen riddle.
If the cyclist can not see, and there may be a driver, then the cyclist should try to optimize sightlines.
For example the cyclist may very well see a vehicle pulling out of driveway, but the driver is behind that white sign and can not see cyclist.
Al
noisebeam
06-06-07, 02:09 PM
Oh come on, nobody ever looks when they are backing up. That's for wimps.
Who is backing up, context?
Al
zeytoun
06-06-07, 02:21 PM
For example the cyclist may very well see a vehicle pulling out of driveway, but the driver is behind that white sign and can not see cyclist.
Al
Did I overlook that in my original post, when I said
"Of course, you and I do not know what the actual sightlines are for that bicyclist. Perhaps the cyclist has good lines and has easily seen that there are no cars approaching the intersection."?
noisebeam
06-06-07, 03:03 PM
Did I overlook that in my original post, when I said
?
No problem, just perhaps my communication vs. what I am thinking.
I see the situation often that a driver pulls up from side street or driveway very fast, slows, perhaps does not stop, driver gives only a cursory look down road sees no car coming and continues.
That can happen fast. Nothing can be done to ensure cyclist is seen, let alone registered, but the best is to ensure both the sightlines of motorist and cyclist are maxmimized and neither driver should assume that because there is no vehicle in sight where or when they look (or can see) that one will not suddenly appear in the next brief moments.
Al
Bekologist
06-06-07, 07:56 PM
:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao: you people are hilarious.
But most cyclists, like Bek, are apparently oblivious to how their lane positioning is a factor of miscommunication in these incidents.
some cyclists, like head, are apparantly overstating how a rider in this type of bike lane would contribute ANY KIND of miscommunication at all.
additionally, a HH patented powerweave in front of traffic to 'maximize conspicuity' would likely be a LARGER factor in miscommunication between overtaking/oncoming drivers.
do you seriously consider this type of lane not a valid bike lane for use by a vehicular cyclist, head? you're seriously misinformed and paranoid about riding your bicycle.
Machka
06-06-07, 08:02 PM
You see the second photo ... the one with the blue car?
I'd be in the space between the blue car and the white line. :)
Helmet Head
06-07-07, 01:12 AM
:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao: you people are hilarious.
But most cyclists, like Bek, are apparently oblivious to how their lane positioning is a factor of miscommunication in these incidents.
some cyclists, like head, are apparantly overstating how a rider in this type of bike lane would contribute ANY KIND of miscommunication at all.
Q.E.D.
additionally, a HH patented powerweave in front of traffic to 'maximize conspicuity' would likely be a LARGER factor in miscommunication between overtaking/oncoming drivers.
How would operating in a traffic lane be miscommunication? What exactly would be miscommunicated?
do you seriously consider this type of lane not a valid bike lane for use by a vehicular cyclist, head? you're seriously misinformed and paranoid about riding your bicycle.
At all junctions and their approaches, moving out of a bike lane should always be given serious consideration.
Bekologist
06-07-07, 08:25 AM
moving out of a bike lane at intersections should be given due consideration...and promptly ignored as unecessary if traffic conditions do not merit it.
seriously, H. Head, you are coming off a bit paranoid about your riding with traffic on a road like this. WITHOUT the lane stripes indicating the bike lane/buffer, a bicyclist- even a dogmatic VCist - would almost positively be further right in the road, in a less centered road position, giving less visibility to the bicyclist and decreased sight lines.
the bike lane stripe improves this road, cognifies bicyclists as road users, and heightens awareness from drivers regarding bikes on the road.
i'm sorry, but are you trying to tell me you move from a safe and visible road position like this bike lane into traffic lanes in the face of oncoming traffic, in addition to playing your 'powerweave' for cars approaching from behind???? what an inconsistent line you weave on your bicycle, head. you're constructuing a conflict from this vehicle?? :roflmao:
your pontificating anti-facilities spiel is really over the top, Head. and you're just a part timer on your bicycle.
At junctions and their approaches, moving out of a bike lane is not mandatory and only needs to be given due consideration.
sbhikes
06-07-07, 08:26 AM
You see the second photo ... the one with the blue car?
I'd be in the space between the blue car and the white line. :)
Why? What is the benefit to avoiding that huge amount of pavement on the other side of the line? And wouldn't that only create confusion for the motorist?
Machka
06-07-07, 07:18 PM
Why? What is the benefit to avoiding that huge amount of pavement on the other side of the line? And wouldn't that only create confusion for the motorist?
The huge amount of pavement on the other side of the line is where the beer bottle glass is located. I'd rather not ride through it.
Bekologist
06-07-07, 11:11 PM
umm, beer bottle glass?
Quoting myself... " Road and bike lane and buffer were not significantly different in degrees of debris. "
umm, no debris or glass, machka. what if it was as clean as the roadway, as it was for us that day? what if there WASN'T any make believe glass?
Machka
06-07-07, 11:17 PM
umm, beer bottle glass?
Quoting myself... " Road and bike lane and buffer were not significantly different in degrees of debris. "
umm, no debris or glass, machka. what if it was as clean as the roadway, as it was for us that day? what if there WASN'T any make believe glass?
There is always beer bottle glass on the shoulders of the road. Especially near urban centers, but even way out in the middle of nowhere.
I can't remember the last time I saw a road without it.
Bekologist
06-07-07, 11:22 PM
whatever. no one flatted that day, the bike lane and buffer were as clean as the travelled road.
you'd ride out of a well accomodated, buffered and clean bikelane because of a overwhelming fear of nonexistant glass? I'm beginning to wonder.....
Machka
06-07-07, 11:27 PM
whatever. no one flatted that day, the bike lane and buffer were as clean as the travelled road.
you'd ride out of a well accomodated, buffered and clean bikelane because of a overwhelming fear of nonexistant glass? I'm beginning to wonder.....
You must live in utopia if there is no beer bottle glass all over your shoulders!! :lol:
Where I live ... the beer bottle glass exists.
Bekologist
06-07-07, 11:43 PM
no, but it was kitsap county, pretty close to utopia.
the entire road was freshly swept & look at how much room was dedicated to bicycle travel. look at the hill in the distance for an accurate perspective - nearly half the pavement for bikes and buffer.
Machka
06-07-07, 11:48 PM
no, but it was kitsap county, pretty close to utopia.
the entire road was freshly swept & look at how much room was dedicated to bicycle travel. look at the hill in the distance for an accurate perspective - nearly half the pavement for bikes and buffer.
As compared with "redneck country" where I live. The boys come into town after several weeks in the oil patch ................. and there will be beer bottle glass EVERYWHERE! <<sigh>>
And that is why I choose to ride on the road whenever possible, whether there is a shoulder available or not. In the middle of the night, when there is very little traffic, I ride right in the middle of the traffic lane.
CB HI
06-08-07, 02:29 AM
Hey if your going to request a response from me either do it in a thread I am already active in, or otherwise give me notice. I can't monitor all threads, just now was the first I checked this out out.
Yeah, I still think the stripe should end before these driveways and side streets. Why not? On a road like this drivers are going to continue their left biased line for that 200' when the stripe ends and they are not going to suddenly forget the message the BL supposedly communicates that cyclists may be on road.
The ending stripe also serves as heads up to cyclists that there is an intersection and a reminder to check rear for turning vehicles.
Al
Bek,
If you do not like noisebeam’s good ideas, why don’t you provide us all with that well designed bikelane that keeps cyclist safe through intersections and driveways.
I have asked you to help all of us by providing that design 5 times now. You should either put up or shut up.
sbhikes
06-08-07, 07:46 AM
A lady just road her bike from San Diego to the east coast of Florida, in the shoulder whenever possible. She did not get a single flat. The fear of glass is highly overrated.
rando
06-08-07, 08:07 AM
I agree the fear of a potentially debris-filled lane is one for the books for VC-ites. it can now be studied and documented and named. I hereby tentatively call it "cyclist debris phobia". it is one of the reasons there is opposition to bike facilities, this phobia. people in europe don't have it because they are taught to not fear the glass unless it is actually there. ;)
noisebeam
06-08-07, 08:25 AM
I agree the fear of a potentially debris-filled lane is one for the books for VC-ites. it can now be studied and documented and named. I hereby tentatively call it "cyclist debris phobia". it is one of the reasons there is opposition to bike facilities, this phobia. people in europe don't have it because they are taught to not fear the glass unless it is actually there. ;)
Apparently you haven't ridden much in the greater east valley, especially Mesa. Yikes. The bike lanes are a mess out there. They are much better in Tempe.
It is not just glass, but small parts from cars, dropped from construction vehicles and the ever popular landscaping stone (1/4-1/2" size).
But in Oregon I guess folks don't drink beer and those that do are very responsible with their glassware. Of course I think OR has a bottle bill, AZ does not. That can make a difference and may be part of why Bek sees a different level glass problems, but not much as the $.05 is not worth it any more for most lazy-assed folks.
Al
Bekologist
06-08-07, 08:28 AM
i think CB's fear of driveways is symptomatic of striped line phobia and doesn't recognize the rules of the road that cars entering superior roadways from drives are required to yield to traffic on the higher traffic road.
wether there's a bike lane or not, a driveway is easily accomodated. and positioning a bike lane to the left of a Right turn only lane, with AASHTO signage indicating "CARS YIELD TO BIKES" in the merge areas, accomodates bike traffic amply, CBHI.
non existant glass, paranoid fears of rural driveways on roads with shoulder buffers, you rabid VC'ists come off exhibiting some serious cycling disorders.
like drivewayiphobia, glassiphobia, and motorist inferiority disorder. not to mention car paranoia.
noisebeam
06-08-07, 08:30 AM
wether there's a bike lane or not, a driveway is easily accomodated. and positioning a bike lane to the left of a Right turn only lane, with AASHTO signage indicating "CARS YIELD TO BIKES" in the merge areas, accomodates bike traffic amply, CBHI.
Which intersections should get RTOLs?
Al
Bekologist
06-08-07, 08:40 AM
jees, al. this thread is about a rural state highway speed road and an amply provided, clean bike lane, with buffer. how some of you can even be argumentative about this facility is stratospheric in your paranoia and foresterism. can't reccomend good pavement to ride at any cost, if it has a bike lane, eh?
what intersections need RTOs? well, i'd leave it to the engineers, but i guess it depends on traffic volume, eh? some intersections like private driveways need no cessation of a bike lane stripe, some minor intersections should get short cessation of the bike lane stripe, some more major intersections should have longer cessation of a bike lane stripe, and major intersections should get RTO lanes.
I'll leave that up to the traffic engineers, yah? you think a person's private rural driveway needs a RTO lane ;) al ?
however, this thread is about a rural, highway speed road with amply provided, clean bike lane and shoulder.
where does a vehicular cyclist ride on this road? a vehicular cyclist would ride in the bike lane, vehicularily, untill there's a reason to leave the bike lane - like a left turn or a big pile of foresterite in the bike lane.
noisebeam
06-08-07, 08:47 AM
what intersections need RTOs? well, i'd leave it to the engineers, but i guess it depends on traffic volume, eh? some intersections like private driveways need no cessation of a bike lane stripe, some minor intersections should get short cessation of the bike lane stripe, some more major intersections should have longer cessation of a bike lane stripe, and major intersections should get RTO lanes.
I'll leave that up to the traffic engineers, yah? you think a person's private rural driveway needs a RTO lane ;) al ?
I don't think rarely occuring single residence private driveways need cessation of bike lanes. In urban/suburban areas such streets should not have a BL at all. In rural areas no need to end BL.
However the intersections shown on that road are not all private non-business driveways - some appear to be side streets, othrers commercial perhaps (with the white sign)
So you agree otherwise that if there is not a RTOL then the stripe should end for all other intersection types - the only exception being along a stretch of road with the very occasional private single residence driveway.
I do not want to leave it up to the engineers to decide if the stripe should end. What may be considered or measured as low on average use, can be very high at some parts of the day - and low anyway is still some right turning vehicles. 1/100 turning vehicles is too many to place my bets on.
Al
Bekologist
06-08-07, 08:54 AM
al, i don't agree with your unrealistic desires regarding bike lane cessation for all intersections.
i've seen very effective treatments of minor interections with no bike lane cessation or short portions of unstriping. i think a more blanket treatment for bicyclist safety is education that turning traffic yield to bikes on road.
don't the 'universal rules of the road' prevent cars from creating a hazard for other traffic when turning? ;)
Bekologist
06-08-07, 09:02 AM
How some of you can even be argumentative about this facility is stratospheric in your paranoia and foresterism. can't recomend good pavement to ride at any cost if it's striped for bike travel? white line phobia...
where does a vehicular cyclist ride on this road? a vehicular cyclist would ride vehicularily in the bike lane until there's a reason to leave the bike lane - like a left turn or a big pile of foresterite in the bike lane.
noisebeam
06-08-07, 09:18 AM
al, i don't agree with your unrealistic desires regarding bike lane cessation for all intersections.
i've seen very effective treatments of minor interections with no bike lane cessation or short portions of unstriping. i think a more blanket treatment for bicyclist safety is education that turning traffic yield to bikes on road.
don't the 'universal rules of the road' prevent cars from creating a hazard for other traffic when turning? ;)
Why is it unrealistic? It is far more realistic than any other guidelines I have ever seen.
What do you mean by effective? Howare you measuring that?
Yes, I've seen those implementations too and such limited cessasion (on the order of 10-30') provides no benefit, other than to allow by law motorists to cut the corner which they do anyway.
Just end the bike lane stripe 200' before all intersections. It's an easy guideline to follow and one that won't get screwed up vs. a complex one requiring study of intersection volumes, guidelines on varied lenght of cessastion with tables for road volume, egress volume, road speeds, and cessation length, then determining patterns of use, accounting for ever changing traffic volumes, accounting for new side streets being added, etc.
I support it not only because it easy to design and implement, but also most effective and supporting cyclist of all skill levels - as even cyclists how have the skill required to ride on roads with bike lanes have the skill to track a straight line if they desire for short 200' stretches.
Al
Bekologist
06-08-07, 10:00 AM
al, where would you be riding on this road?
I'm betting (despite all your internet complaints) you'd be tooling along, happy as a clam, in the clean, well provided bike lane.
Can a vehicular cyclist ride in this bike lane in a vehicular manner? you betchya.
noisebeam
06-08-07, 10:02 AM
al, where would you be riding on this road?
I'm betting in the clean, well provided bike lane.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no
But never in the shoulder area.
Al
rando
06-08-07, 10:15 AM
I'd be in the bike lane unless there was a reason to get out of it.
Bekologist
06-08-07, 10:19 AM
more importantly,
Can a vehicular cyclist ride in this bike lane in a vehicular manner? you betchya.
nightc1
06-08-07, 10:29 AM
I'd ride in that bike lane and keep an eye in my mirror for traffic from the rear, keep looking ahead at driveways and so on... and be prepared to change based on the current situation.
I wouldn't ride to the right of the bike lane. Not for fear of debre but because I'd rather have that lane to escape to if needed.