regardless, if I'm in my own lane of travel, I do NOT expect overtaking vehicles to have to swerve out of their lane or slow down to pass me. only riders with documented cases of motorcar phobia are prone to require a driver to slow down while passing safely.


some riders express fear of cracks in the pavement. must ride more.

I don't require a motorist to change lanes or change position in the lane, but I would expect it from a motorist who truly noticed me cycling near their intended path. A very large percentage of the time (well over 90% I'd say), I get a reaction when cycling in a WOL off to the side. Motorists move over in the lane even though they could pass me with plenty of clearance even if they didn't. You often make the claim that daytime visibility gear will do more to get a cyclist noticed than swerving in and out of traffic lanes (my paraphrasing of your description, of course) and that bike lane/shoulder stripes do not make a cyclist less noticeable. I was testing that and saw no indication from motorists that they were noticing me at all compared to the reaction I normally get in a WOL without using any special visibility gear. I'm not dismissing the fact that the PBSF is quite bright; it definitely is. In my short test though, it did nothing special that would make me recommend it over another blinkie, nor did it give any indication that even the brightest tailight (or close to it) on the market will get a cyclist noticed who is riding out of the way to the right of a stripe.

yes, joe, unecessary 'wide passing' is a common reaction from drivers when they share lanes with cyclists.....versus when a bicyclist is in another travel lane or across a white line.

when I'm riding on four lane arterials, in my own lane, I don't expect a driver in another lane to have to adjust their road position to pass me, regardless of which lane I'm in.

yes, joe, unecessary 'wide passing' is a common reaction from drivers when they share lanes with cyclists.....versus when a bicyclist is in another travel lane or across a white line.

when I'm riding on four lane arterials, in my own lane, I don't expect a driver in another lane to have to adjust their road position to pass me, regardless of which lane I'm in.

What do you think of this new law in DE?

http://ohs.delaware.gov/pdfs/PDFs/Move%20Over%20Law/move%20over%20flier%20in%20color.pdf

What do you think of this new law in DE?
I think the fine is ridiculously low.

What do you think of this new law in DE?

http://ohs.delaware.gov/pdfs/PDFs/Move%20Over%20Law/move%20over%20flier%20in%20color.pdf


Do you consider your self an emergency or just traffic?

Do you consider riding on an MUP an inconvience because you might not be able to ride at full speed?

Is it OK to slow a motorist to your speed for reasons of your own safety?

Do you consider your self an emergency or just traffic?

Do you consider riding on an MUP an inconvience because you might not be able to ride at full speed?

Is it OK to slow a motorist to your speed for reasons of your own safety?

I'm traffic, just like the cop who is pulled over in the shoulder. The cop being pulled over in itself is not an emergency (they might be attending to an emergency though) but the state thinks that motorists should slow down or give extra room when possible. Why should a slow moving cyclist be any different?

I would not consider riding slower on a MUP than I would on the road an inconvenience IF I made that choice to ride on the MUP. If I'm being forced onto that MUP that forces me to ride slower than normal when a perfectly useable road exists right next to it, then yes, it's an inconvenience that I won't put up with. If there's traffic on the road that I chose to take and that traffic causes me to go slower than I'd prefer, then that's my fault for wanting to go somewhere on the same road at the same time as other people. Not much can be done about that.

Yes, it's ok to slow a motorist to my speed for reasons of my safety. I slow to stop at all intersections where it's signed for me to do so for reasons of my safety and the safety of others. I also slow or stop for school buses for reasons of other's safety.

are you traffic, or a stopped emergency vehicle? why should vehicles have to slow down when a rider is in their own striped lane?

you foresterite VCists and your fear of overtaking traffic - definetly motorcar phobia. did you pick that up from H. Head, joe???

why should vehicles have to slow down when a rider is in their own striped lane?
Depending on the situation, several reasons.

First, I agree that if the cyclist is riding centerish in an 11' (or more) regular traffic lane there is no reason for passing drivers of vehicles in an adjacent lane to slow down. This is because a 2' wide cyclist in an 11' lane has 4.5' of space to each side, so anyone fully within the adjacent lane, even someone driving at the edge nearest the cyclist, is at least 4.5' from the cyclist. Also, motorists are generally pretty good about checking for traffic in an adjacent traffic lane before merging or drifting into it - much better than they are about doing so with an adjacent shoulder or bike lane.

But, if the cyclist is riding in the center of a 5' bike lane - leaving only 1.5' to the BL stripe from his left side - and a motorist is approaching from behind, these are the reasons I think that motorist might have to slow down and/or adjust position:
If the motorist is anywhere near the right edge of his lane, he is going to pass the cyclist with less than 3' of clearance, and that's assuming the cyclist is centered in a 5' bike lane. If he's centered in a 4' bike lane, or riding near or on the stripe, this is even more likely. 3' (or 1 meter) is generally considered a minimum safe passing distance for a motorist in a car to pass a cyclist. There are exceptions (at slow speeds the minimum is lowered, at high speed differentials 3' might be too close), but 3' is a good overall average minimum.
Not only is the cyclist in the bike lane likely to be passed too closely by the driver in the adjacent lane who is not slowing down or adjusting laterally to increase the passing distance or decrease the passing speed differential, the cyclist monitoring to the rear with a mirror has no way to know if the motorist has noticed him or whether he is unaware of his presence, has chosen to attend to a distaction, and is about to drift into him at a point when it is too late for the cyclist to be able to do anything about it. For any given particular passing situation, the odds of such a drift are very low. But, year after year, pass after pass, the numbers start catching up with you, unless you ride in a manner that causes the passing motorists to be more likely to notice you in the first place, and cause them to slow down and/or adjust left rather than choose to attend to a distraction as they are passing you.Those are the reasons I like to see motorists slow down and/or move left prior to passing me when I'm riding in a bike lane, and why I often adjust my riding to cause them to do that.

jeez, the "inadverdant drift" phobia is strong in you, helmet. Is that why you don't ride everyday?

No, I ride primarily on roads with bike lanes and I wouldn't expect a motorist to slow down when passing me. I do expect them to notice me and not to hit me though. So far, I have no reason to believe that they don't. Not a hell of a lot I can do about it in any case.

No, I ride primarily on roads with bike lanes and I wouldn't expect a motorist to slow down when passing me. I do expect them to notice me and not to hit me though. So far, I have no reason to believe that they don't. Not a hell of a lot I can do about it in any case.

Well, there is something you could do about it: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=233044

So if you drove an under-powered car and stayed in the right lane would you expect the cars in the left lane to slow down as they passed you? Would you swerve your car around to make them slow, or ride in the left lane only pulling into the right lane after they notice you?

So if you drove an under-powered car and stayed in the right lane would you expect the cars in the left lane to slow down as they passed you? Would you swerve your car around to make them slow, or ride in the left lane only pulling into the right lane after they notice you?

If I'm sharing the main roadway with them, I wouldn't be too concerned about them seeing me, as opposed to being off to the side not in a traffic lane. They won't be turning right across my path if they are in the left lane (very little chance at least). I would expect them to slow a bit if there was a very high speed differential because it's generally good practice to do so (they don't know why I'm going so slow and I know I'd want to try and figure it out first before passing at full speed).

Is there something wrong with my expectations, or the DE law which has similar expectations?

Those are the reasons I like to see motorists slow down and/or move left prior to passing me when I'm riding in a bike lane, and why I often adjust my riding to cause them to do that.

You forgot:

If a motorist happens to be closely passing a cyclist right before he or she swerves or falls to the left, the results can be catastrophic. So, it's helpful to know what to do to discourage close passing, and to encourage motorists to slow down as they pass.
That is a reason to discourage motorist close-passing of cyclists in general (and is one reason I don't close-pass cyclists when I'm driving), and is a reason to use the technique for those cyclists who want to discourage close-passing because they are concerned they might have to suddenly swerve. But that's not me, so, in the list of reasons for why I use the technique for myself, it does not apply. I didn't forget.

lane stripes allow for reduced passing friction because of clearly demarcated lanes of use.

Drivers pass me closer when I'm near a lane stripe, versus none. I experience close passing a lot when I'm edge biased in a lane for visibility riding in rush hour traffic. And that's not just a bike lane stripe, it is ANY lane striping.

Have you experienced this? If you've ridden a lot, you know EXACTLY what I'm describing.

a driver does pass closer when there's a line seperating you from them, versus in a WOL. Riding in a (any) travel lane, near the stripes, cars pass closer, because of the demarcation from the lane stripes.

You think close passing because of lane striping invalidates the utility a bike lane network provides for a community? what a kneeslapper...

Does close passing in a car bother you as much as on a bicycle when the distances are the same? In other words, do you expect a fellow car driver to slow and make a wide arc around whether or not you are riding a bicycle?

And if you do expect different treatment when on a bicycle, going so far as to cause different treatment, how does this behavior jive with "faring best when acting and being treated as the driver of a vehicle'?

Serge, that indeed is you and you have forgotten.

That is a direct quote of yours.
I don't deny writing those words. I deny writing them in a context of specifying the reasons that I use the technique for personal reasons.

Creating a thread that discusses your reasons for it being dangerous when traffic doesn't slow down or move left when passing you and subsequently expounding upon your techniques to mitigate these "dangerous" situations is about as personal as it gets.
Stop putting his words into context!

Pete, your sophistry knows no bounds. I'm done here.

I'm done here.
I'll say.

Does close passing in a car bother you as much as on a bicycle when the distances are the same? In other words, do you expect a fellow car driver to slow and make a wide arc around whether or not you are riding a bicycle?

And if you do expect different treatment when on a bicycle, going so far as to cause different treatment, how does this behavior jive with "faring best when acting and being treated as the driver of a vehicle'?

At high speed differentials, I would expect a larger passing clearance than at slower speed differentials whether in a car or on a bike. I don't expect a wide arc for a pass on a bike but I do expect to be given a reasonable amount of room. On a narrow laned road, that means completely leaving the lane to pass me allowing me to keep my desired buffer from the road edge and keeping a reasonable distance between my elbows and the side view mirror. In a wide lane, it means adjusting position in the lane just like you would if there were cars parked at the outside edge of the wide lane.

you dreamer, you.

you dreamer, you.

I must dream every time I ride my bike :)

So if you drove an under-powered car and stayed in the right lane would you expect the cars in the left lane to slow down as they passed you? Would you swerve your car around to make them slow, or ride in the left lane only pulling into the right lane after they notice you?
If I was driving a car under powered or not in a sub-standard width outside lane or with conditions that required me to drive left biased in that lane, I certainly would expect drivers in inside lane to use caution when passing, which likely would require slowing down. Other factors would include if the driver was speeding or the posted SL was higher than safe for conditions (such as too high relative to lane widths)

Al

Something about striping can make lead people to make wrong decisions. Maine just passed a bill amending a traffic law. It used to be illegal at all times to cross a double yellow stripe for the purposes of passing anything, including bicycles. The amendment to this law specifically allows for crossing the double yellow to give the 3-foot clearance now required by the amendment to pass bicycles.

Now to my story: I was once buzzed so close by a motorist that I swear I could feel his right side mirror brush my arm. I caught up with him and we proceeded to get into an argument (big surprise). I wanted more room as he passed. He said it's illegal to cross the double yellow. So he passed me in a very dangerous way so as not to break the law.

I just love how paint is so much more valued than passing with care.

"...completely leaving the lane to pass...."

yes, that's dreaming, joe.

"...completely leaving the lane to pass...."

yes, that's dreaming, joe.

I'm not sure why you feel this way. The VAST majority get their right tires within a foot of the center yellow (solid or not) stripe, many of them completely crossing over it when I'm cycling in a narrow lane. For all intents and purposes, that's completely leaving the lane and I have a rare occurence of people who might try to pass with less clearance than I'd prefer. On multilane roads with narrow lanes, the vast majority completely change lanes to pass me. I'd say that the occurence of those who choose to pass without completely leaving the lane is less than 1 in 500.

wow, you must have some magic sway over drivers that none of the rest of the cycling community appears to have.

oh, but now it's within a foot of the yellow line... interestinc.

so, those lines demarcating travel lanes on the roads ARE important to you, eh, joe?

wow, you must have some magic sway over drivers that none of the rest of the cycling community appears to have.

oh, but now it's within a foot of the yellow line... interestinc.

so, those lines demarcating travel lanes on the roads ARE important to you, eh, joe?

I previously said that I expect drivers to always completely leave the lane. I didn't say they always did it though most do or come pretty darn close.

The centerline on the road is an easy reference point for me to let someone on the internet visualize how much room I am getting and to point out that motorist have no problems crossing a centerline by many feet when they realize they'd have to cross the line no matter how little space they felt like giving. Also, many cyclists complain about motorists not wanting to cross centerlines so I felt this was an important point to comment on.

When riding in a bike lane, is it reasonable to expect that cars slow down as they pass you?

FWIW, I don't think that it's reasonable to expect that cars slow down as they pass you. In fact, I think that expecting cars to slow down is a manifestation of Motorcar Phobia.
Although I don't expect cars to slow down when they pass me, most do, sometimes slowing so much as to irritate me.

When I drive, I am respectful of cyclists, and I also slow down when I pass, and give plenty of room. Since I don't know their level of sensitivity, I treat them as if they might appreciate a reasonably careful, moderate-speed pass. When I ride my bike, I do the same for pedestrians who might be near my line of travel, even though I know I can more easily fly past them without harm to myself, I know it might startle them or bother them, so out of respect I give them warning and pass slowly.

Although I don't expect cars to slow down when they pass me, most do, sometimes slowing so much as to irritate me.

When I drive, I am respectful of cyclists, and I also slow down when I pass, and give plenty of room. Since I don't know their level of sensitivity, I treat them as if they might appreciate a reasonably careful, moderate-speed pass. When I ride my bike, I do the same for pedestrians who might be near my line of travel, even though I know I can more easily fly past them without harm to myself, I know it might startle them or bother them, so out of respect I give them warning and pass slowly.
Do you ever pass cyclists on 55+ mph roads without shoulders? How slow do you drive then, especially with other motor vehicles at 55+ mph not far behind you?

I'm not sure why you feel this way. The VAST majority get their right tires within a foot of the center yellow (solid or not) stripe, many of them completely crossing over it when I'm cycling in a narrow lane. For all intents and purposes, that's completely leaving the lane and I have a rare occurence of people who might try to pass with less clearance than I'd prefer. On multilane roads with narrow lanes, the vast majority completely change lanes to pass me. I'd say that the occurence of those who choose to pass without completely leaving the lane is less than 1 in 500.

Hmmmmm ... anecdotally, most motorists are quite lawful when they pass. But my experience is that they pass considerably closer than this.

Perhaps it has to do with different riding environments. Almost all of my weekday riding is in urban environments while I make regular trips to the surrounding areas for weekend rides.

When riding in a bike lane, is it reasonable to expect that cars slow down as they pass you?

FWIW, I don't think that it's reasonable to expect that cars slow down as they pass you. In fact, I think that expecting cars to slow down is a manifestation of Motorcar Phobia.

When I drive, I am respectful of cyclists, and I also slow down when I pass, and give plenty of room.

Do you ever pass cyclists on 55+ mph roads without shoulders? How slow do you drive then, especially with other motor vehicles at 55+ mph not far behind you?

From what I understand of your posts, ILTB, you object to being labeled a phobic for desiring alternatives to your current 55+ mph roads without shoulders heavily travelled and replete with trucks.

As for me, my comments were based on the original post, which mentioned nothing of your unfortunate situation, which is also quite different from my normal state of affairs.

Do you ever pass cyclists on 55+ mph roads without shoulders? How slow do you drive then, especially with other motor vehicles at 55+ mph not far behind you?

From what I understand of your posts, ILTB, you object to being labeled a phobic for desiring alternatives to your current 55+ mph roads without shoulders heavily travelled and replete with trucks.

As for me, my comments were based on the original post, which mentioned nothing of your unfortunate situation, which is also quite different from my normal state of affairs.
Is your answer then that in your normal state of affairs of slowing to pass cyclists you never drive on 55+ mph roads, or that your never pass cyclists on them, or never see cyclists on anything but relatively slow roads, or what?

Is your answer then that in your normal state of affairs of slowing to pass cyclists you never drive on 55+ mph roads, or that your never pass cyclists on them, or never see cyclists on anything but relatively slow roads, or what?
Roads I use that are 55+ mph. are generally freeways, and cycling is illegal on them.

I just rode some highway speed roads on a little weekend tour out on the Olympic Peninsula; having clean paved shoulders are nice.

riding high speed roads without shoulders puts you into a hyperalert wariness state for traffic from behind.

bike lanes and passing cars?
Like stripes on roads without bike lanes, a stripe encourages smoother, closer passing than riding on roads with no stripes.

When I'm traffic jamming downtown, (roads without bike lanes) riding near the stripes for visibility or prepratory to a lane change, cars pass close because the line demarcates their travel space.

bike lane stripes have the same effect. its really incredibly basic, so obvious to not need debate. Stripes on a road help demarcate travel space.

Hmmmmm ... anecdotally, most motorists are quite lawful when they pass. But my experience is that they pass considerably closer than this.

Perhaps it has to do with different riding environments. Almost all of my weekday riding is in urban environments while I make regular trips to the surrounding areas for weekend rides.

What kind of lane widths are you riding in? The narrow lanes I'm talking about are probably 9-10 feet most of the time, sometimes 11-12. I do need to get out there with a tape measure to make sure I haven't been off the mark this whole time but I'm usually pretty good at estimating distances. There is also a significant difference in speed (20+mph) most of the time between me and passing traffic. The roads certainly are not urban in the true sense of urban but they do have a significant number of driveways and intersecting roads.