Hello all ! I've been lurking and researching here for a bit. I'm an out of shape middle-aged guy, married with two kids (ages 3 and 7 months), living in the suburbs and looking to slowly reduce my car usage / dependence. I live 17 miles from work and ~4-5 miles from the grocery store. For 'investment' funds in the endeavor I will pretty much be limited to what profits I can grind out from online poker - roughly $50-$100 a month.
Current assets: The poker bankroll is healthy enough where I can currently withdraw $100- $300 comfortably. I have a Giant hybrid bicycle (Cypress, I think) with a child seat and associated rack above the rear wheel. It is not a fast bike. I tried riding home from work once using it just to see if I could do it in my current overweight, out of shape state and to check out the route. It took me almost two hours but I was able to do it. Long term, if I am going to commute to & from work by bike, I will have to be in better shape and on a faster bike.
For grocery shopping, being able to go get a fairly large amount of groceries and taking one (or both) children would have a high WAF*. Right now I have no ability to carry cargo. Also, my eldest doesn't seem to like the bicycle seat anymore (grrr.)
The current options as I see them:
Get some panniers to attach to the child seat rack (if this is even possible.) Is a rack a rack or do I need a special rack ? Temporarily pass up on taking kids with me grocery shopping. This seems to be limited in capacity and also leaves my wife stuck at home with the kids. The cheapest short term option, though, I think.
Xtracycle + peapod - everyone seems to love them. Possibly Xtracycle + two child trailer. If and when I go out and get an efficient and fast recumbent for commuting to work I will end up with the complication of two bikes. Also, shopping for 4 + a dog would seem to be stretching the xtracycle's capabilities.
Trailer - the Wike grocery trailer (http://www.wicycle.com/gcs.htm) is catching my eye, though others have also. This would also allow me to hook up the trailer to a future bike. Or a two child trailer with groceries stuffed around the kids.
Thoughts ?
Platy
06-07-07, 08:32 PM
Hi benjdm, glad you found your way here. Just curious, what provoked your interest in becoming a little less dependent on cars?
benjdm
06-07-07, 08:40 PM
Finite fossil fuels / peak oil is probably the primary motivator, exercise being another, climate change being another.
Platy
06-07-07, 09:16 PM
Finite fossil fuels / peak oil is probably the primary motivator, exercise being another, climate change being another.
You've probably already begun the process of looking at things from a carfree standpoint. If not, it would be good to start taking an inventory of your local resources. By that I mean small retail stores that you may have never noticed before, the closest public transit recources, taxi companies, and so forth. I have no idea what your local resources might be, if indeed there are any at all.
squegeeboo
06-08-07, 06:48 AM
I have a Giant hybrid bicycle (Cypress, I think) with a child seat and associated rack above the rear wheel. It is not a fast bike. I tried riding home from work once using it just to see if I could do it in my current overweight, out of shape state and to check out the route. It took me almost two hours but I was able to do it. Long term, if I am going to commute to & from work by bike, I will have to be in better shape and on a faster bike.
Thoughts ?
Hey dude, my only ride is a Giant Cypress, it's not the fastest bike ever, but with a few modifications you can make it do 16-18mph on average with no real issues (once your in shape). The 2 biggest improvements in speed for me came from:
1. Switching from the 700x38 tires that came with it to 700x28 near-slick road tires.
2. Switching from normal pedals to clipless.
When I first started I was barely hitting 12 MPH, now if I'm under 16MPH it's because I was lazy and/or hungover.
Redrom
06-08-07, 08:56 AM
I have done the 2 kids on xtracycle trip to the grocery store for 4-6 miles and I can tell you that it's a challenge even after getting in shape. Riding with two kids (one in rear peapod, one in childseat mounted to snapdeck) is a lot to manage yourself (mostly in getting started and in stopping, but also in balancing). Doing all the shopping for 4 & a dog would be fine with kidsin tow if it was done daily, but would be really taxing with a weeks worth of groceries. Better to leave the kids home for that weekly trip. My commute was 21 miles, and on a recumbent I got it down to 1 1/2 hours.
I just moved, and now my commute is a little over 3 miles (today was the first day as a matter of fact) along a bike trail, the grocery store is on the trail (about 2 miles away), and we're a few blocks from a nice "village" downtown.
Good Luck!
The Human Car
06-08-07, 10:23 AM
There is no wrong choice find something that seems like a best fit for you and go with it. And if it turns out you need something different sell what you got and get the different thing. It’s no big deal really.
gosmsgo
06-08-07, 11:08 AM
Hey dude, my only ride is a Giant Cypress, it's not the fastest bike ever, but with a few modifications you can make it do 16-18mph on average with no real issues (once your in shape). The 2 biggest improvements in speed for me came from:
1. Switching from the 700x38 tires that came with it to 700x28 near-slick road tires.
2. Switching from normal pedals to clipless.
When I first started I was barely hitting 12 MPH, now if I'm under 16MPH it's because I was lazy and/or hungover.
You mean your computer average or just when you look down you are typically see 16-18 mph.
If thats your computer average then you probably typically going 25 mph.
Every stopsign and redlight kills your computer average.
I know the computer stops when your wheel stops but the slowing down and speeding up drops it considerably.
Roody
06-08-07, 11:23 AM
First, welcome benjdm! :)
I won't speak to the kid-schlepping issue, and others know more about panniers and trailers. But I'm an expert on the "out-of-shape middle-aged issue" so here goes:
First, as Lance Armstrong says, "It's not about the bike." Like squegeeboo said, the Cypress is an adequate bike for the kind of riding you're describing. You just can't expect to be in great shape right off the line, and probably your riding skills and technique could stand some improvement. So work on those as you begin your carfree adventure.
I reccommend starting off slowly. The first priority should be strength and endurance. For most people, the 34 mile round trip to work is way too much right at the start. Determine how far you can ride comfortably, or better yet how long you can ride, as time is probaly more important than distance to a utility cyclist. (I'm talking how long you can ride on a daily basis -- not a one-time basis.) Ride that far every day for a week, then add 10 % or so the next week and every week thereafter. Before long you'll have worked up to the distance you will actually need to ride every day. Almost no pain, lots of gain at this stage.
As for riding technique, the most common error of beginning cyclists has to do with cadence, measured as rpms of your cranks. Work on getting your cadence faster. This entails riding in an easier gear combination than you're probably used to. Ideal cadence varies from rider to rider, but you'll probably find yours to be in the 80 to 100 rpm range.
To increase cadence, find a gear combination where you can comfortably spin the cranks as fast as possible without "bouncing" in the saddle. Work to maintain this cadence and gradually, over a few weeks, increase cadence until you pretty much max out. With time, the faster cadence will come naturally to you, but for a few weeks you'll have to think about it all the time.
Good luck, and I think it's great how you're involving your whole family in this.
gwd
06-08-07, 06:27 PM
Hey, my neighbor has a cypress and 2 kids. I helped her mount a child seat on the rear and when she got the second kid I helped her mount a second child seat on this bar that goes between the seatpost and the steering tube. We put a detachable wire basket on the front handlebars. Two weeks ago I caught her with both kids a tricycle and a scooter and picninc stuff food and blanket on it. The rear child seat has these holes like handgrips at the top so she loops grocery bags through them. That is where she tied the tricycle and scooter on her picnic trip. She has a trailer but that day decided it was easier to just tie things on it. She put planet bike fenders on the cypress for wet weather. Anyway the cypress works for practical transportation. Her cypress came from a garage sale with one extremely low gear. I don't know if this is standard but it comes in handy for when she has to haul two kids and groceries up a steep hill. Sometimes she uses the trailer to make larger grocery hauls or other stuff but judging by the way she packs things on the bike she seems to only use the trailer when she absolutely has to.
benjdm
06-08-07, 09:12 PM
Thanks everyone for the replies so far !
Trips need to be functional for me to actually get significant bike time. I work rotating shift work on 12-hour shifts. When I'm not working, asking my wife to spend even more time alone with the kids while I go out for a ride is pretty much a non-starter. If I wanted to go grocery shopping and leave the kids home with her it would turn into a mini-van trip with at least the kids, possibly all 4 of us.
Do I need a special rack to attack panniers to ? Or will the rack I currently have that the child seat slides onto probably work if I start out with that route ?
gerv
06-08-07, 10:50 PM
Thanks everyone for the replies so far !
Trips need to be functional for me to actually get significant bike time.
A 34-mile round trip commute is difficult. You might think about driving to a location where you can park and then cycling the rest. Or, cycle 17 miles to work and take the bus back. Or, drive to work and cycle back, which would entail leaving the car at work on occasion.
Another idea is to get in the habit of doing some trips only by bike. For example, I make one trip to the library and a health food store every week or so. I never make this trip by car. Since I never connect the thought of going to the library by car, where I need to travel to the library, I always head for the bike. It's probably Pavlovian training, but it seems to work for me.
Jinker
06-08-07, 11:13 PM
On my hybrid with 32c tires I generally average 26kph on my 10k commute to and from work. If I hammer (avoid a long section of MUP taking the road) I can get it up to 30. (That's 16mph, 6 miles and 18.5 respectively)
Is an hour each way feasible for you? (In either hot or bad weather you may have to add a little to that to account for clothing changes at the office)
Trailers are awesome, for kids and groceries. They'll slow you down by a few mph, but being able to carry 100lbs in the trailer (plus whatever you want to put on a rack/in panniers) makes a bike all of a sudden much more practical for larger grocery runs.
Going on more small runs, or arranging a big run each week where you don't need to bring the kids can make a difficult chore much more pleasurable. If you're bringing the kids, it helps if they enjoy the routine, obviously.
I second the suggestion to look into mixed commuting options. In my town we've got Rack'n'roll where there's bike racks on the front of all the major bus routes. If you choose your route to avoid the slow downtown or circuitous bus trips, sticking to express bus routes to cover chunks of distance, it can vastly expand your range. Biking a few miles to the best route, then a couple more from the other end can be much quicker than having to transfer buses, or sometimes even than driving, depending on your situation.
I don't think you need a new bike for a 1 hr commute, but that's just my opinion.
As far as trailers go, check used options. Go to the annual school swap sale fundraisers. Deals abound there.
If you're looking for JUST cargo carrying, beat-up kiddy trailers are the hot ticket, as people can't sell them for anything, but they can have literally years and years left of life left in them if you're not worried too much about their safety. Sometimes removing the fabric seats and tossing a plywood bottom in it can make it a great tool for $0.
Platy
06-09-07, 12:19 AM
The OP is looking at 34 miles of daily all-weather commuting, plus 9 mile trips to the store, with two kids. This is a good example of a common situation, where previous lifestyle choices made under the assumption of cheap & easy transportation come back to make it much harder to become carfree or even car-lite.
I suspect the OP will have to attack the problem on several fronts in order to get a workable solution.
1 - physical conditioning improves fairly rapidly when you're riding a lot, no question about that, but
2 - an electric assist bike might help a lot, as will
3 - making maximum use of whatever public transit facilities might be available
4 - the best long term approach is to attack the problem at its source and reduce the overall need for transportation. Hence, suggestions such as maximize use of local resources, move to a more advantageous location, change jobs, alter lifestyles and so forth. Those aren't usually easy things to do, but if the goal is to be carfree it's a direction you will eventually want to consider.
Any person who's concerned about peak oil will be familiar with "The Long Emergency" by James Kunstler. One theme of that book is that the current model of suburban living falls apart without the car. On a casual reading, Kunstler's argument seems doomerish, overblown and maybe a bit hysterical. However, a person who actually tries to go carfree under suburban conditions will soon appreciate that Kunstler is right on target in this matter. The outer suburbs are very challenging for carfree living.
vulpes
06-09-07, 06:49 AM
Any person who's concerned about peak oil will be familiar with "The Long Emergency" by James Kunstler. One theme of that book is that the current model of suburban living falls apart without the car. On a casual reading, Kunstler's argument seems doomerish, overblown and maybe a bit hysterical. However, a person who actually tries to go carfree under suburban conditions will soon appreciate that Kunstler is right on target in this matter. The outer suburbs are very challenging for carfree living.
Kudos, Platy. :) You are probably the most level-headed and informative poster to the BF. The OP's reasons for seeking car-freedom are the same as some of mine. The rest revolve around my somewhat radical ideology.
Kunstler does go a bit overboard at times but I agree that he makes a lot of sense. Becoming car-free will go a long way in preparing a person for "The Long Emergency". I have been wondering lately, though, what more I can do in the way of preparation. Any suggestions?
gerv
06-09-07, 09:11 AM
Kudos, Platy. :)
Kunstler does go a bit overboard at times but I agree that he makes a lot of sense. Becoming car-free will go a long way in preparing a person for "The Long Emergency". I have been wondering lately, though, what more I can do in the way of preparation. Any suggestions?
My thought is to do little things:
* try to track down some local sources of food. Doesn't mean you stop eating bananas, but maybe there's an apple orchard somewhere close.
* reduce energy needs. Since it's nice and sunny out, I have a line of clothes drying outside. I still use the dryer when it rains but I'm trying to form a habit of drying clothes w/o a dryer.
* encourage your friends and colleagues to try a trip to the grocery store. If you can get people to sign on to the notion that you don't need the car for every swinging errand, that's a major plus. I try not to be preachy about it, but if they ask...
Any others?
gerv
06-09-07, 09:18 AM
4 - the best long term approach is to attack the problem at its source and reduce the overall need for transportation. Hence, suggestions such as maximize use of local resources, move to a more advantageous location, change jobs, alter lifestyles and so forth. Those aren't usually easy things to do, but if the goal is to be carfree it's a direction you will eventually want to consider.
I occasionally ride through suburbs and I always think I would have to use the car for every errand I ran. The grocery store is 5 miles away. Library 10. Clothing, hardware, work...everything is distant. I guess in the long run, you'd have to come to the conclusion that living closer to everything is the only way...
It's probably not something you can do right now, but certainly something to think about.
bmclaughlin807
06-09-07, 10:29 AM
Do I need a special rack to attack panniers to ? Or will the rack I currently have that the child seat slides onto probably work if I start out with that route ?
Can't answer this without knowing what rack you/seat you have. Most racks are interchangeable, but the rack that a child seat mounts onto may well be unique.
gsk3
06-09-07, 02:41 PM
For 'investment' funds in the endeavor I will pretty much be limited to what profits I can grind out from online poker - roughly $50-$100 a month.
Figure out how much gas you would use on your route and "pay" your bike fund every time you take a trip you would have had to take anyway. Even at 30mpg, a 5 mile trip is $0.50. Bike in for your trip to work only once a week and it will add another $10 or more each month.
Ari
East Hill
06-09-07, 05:05 PM
Thanks everyone for the replies so far !
Trips need to be functional for me to actually get significant bike time. I work rotating shift work on 12-hour shifts. When I'm not working, asking my wife to spend even more time alone with the kids while I go out for a ride is pretty much a non-starter.
Ouch, that rotating shift work is nasty!
You can look at your 'ride' time as an investment in your health. Would your wife rather spend ALL her time alone with the kids for the rest of her life if you die as a result of a heart attack brought on by the years of accumulated bad habits?
Is there any way you can do a park-and-ride, so that you don't have to ride all the way? It's not car free, but it's reducing your dependence on a car.
Just thinking out loud here...
East Hill
benjdm
06-09-07, 09:07 PM
Is there any way you can do a park-and-ride, so that you don't have to ride all the way? It's not car free, but it's reducing your dependence on a car.
Just thinking out loud here...
East Hill
I've thought about that. There are no obvious places on the route.
I'm thinking I'll start with either a used kid trailer (and see if I can get my oldest interested again) or just throw some panniers on the back for small grocery runs.
cerewa
06-11-07, 07:53 PM
I pretty much agree with the park and ride suggestion, especially if one part of your drive is much slower than another. (if you drive at 55mph for the first half of and 15mph in traffic for the second half, for example.) Neighborhoods with free parking on residential streets should work; in the USA that means almost every neighborhood that's more than 7 miles from a major city's center. You really can just park in some random on-street parking spot and leave your car for a day.
My other suggestion is that it would surprise me to hear that there isn't a single good grocery store along a 17 mile bike commute-- you can pick a grocery store not based on how far it is from your house, but based on how far it is from your commute route. If you stop at the grocery store on the way home every day you will find that you don't have to carry much (say, enough to fill a good sized backpack) on any single day. If your 17 mile commute has a grocery store directly along the route then splitting your shopping up will probably save you time overall-- you'll spend a little more time in checkout lines and a lot less time traveling to and from the grocery store.
acroy
06-12-07, 09:20 AM
Best o luck to you benjdm!
Can you get your wife interested in riding also?
I only have one kid. the three of us make grocery runs with 2 bikes and a $80 (new) kiddie trailer, 7.5 miles roundtrip. with the trailer and 2 backpacks we can carry a surprising amount. got groceries for 3 days and 3 cases of beer home once :)
just some suggestions, for your consideration:
try the grocery run every other day, buy necessities 2 or 3 days at a time, work up your comfort level on the bike and endurance/fitness that way.
when you start to commute via bike, try for every other or every 3rd day for a while, and ease into it. Give your body a chance to recover. Eat complex carbs, fiber, limit grease and meat. fruits, veggies, brown rice, whole grains, poultry... You will feel awesome, i guarantee it.
How supportive is your spouse? I really think you can bring her around, as she sees you get fit, the gas bills go down, etc etc...
cheers
benjdm
06-12-07, 07:27 PM
Best o luck to you benjdm!
Can you get your wife interested in riding also?
Eventually, I hope to. That's a longer term goal.
try the grocery run every other day, buy necessities 2 or 3 days at a time, work up your comfort level on the bike and endurance/fitness that way.
Well, I took the bike out today ~ 5 miles to the LBS while both kids were napping (a rarity.) I bought two grocery-getter panniers and picked up some milk and stuff on the way home. $75. Ran into quite the rainstorm, but I waited it out in an Eckerd's along the way (I was just in a t-shirt and shorts.)
when you start to commute via bike, try for every other or every 3rd day for a while, and ease into it. Give your body a chance to recover. Eat complex carbs, fiber, limit grease and meat. fruits, veggies, brown rice, whole grains, poultry... You will feel awesome, i guarantee it.
I'm going to have to get the poker account quite a bit higher for work commuting. Considering I currently drive a 1996 Tercel that gets 35mpg, it takes me one gallon of gas per round trip. Investing an extra 3 hours in the round trip is not worth $3, so I would have to get quite a bit more in shape and get a faster and more comfortable bike first. However, now that I have some cargo capacity, I hope to be able to make some grocery runs and such with it.
How supportive is your spouse? I really think you can bring her around, as she sees you get fit, the gas bills go down, etc etc...
Oh, she's supportive. Our kids are pretty intense and it is very wearing to watch them. It's more of a sanity thing. I rarely have to watch them alone for as long as she does, but when I do, I'm definitely pretty wiped and desiring a break like she does.
Now I just need someone to put a Wike kid trailer on ebay cheap...
Jinker
06-17-07, 10:41 PM
Oh, she's supportive. Our kids are pretty intense and it is very wearing to watch them. It's more of a sanity thing. I rarely have to watch them alone for as long as she does, but when I do, I'm definitely pretty wiped and desiring a break like she does.
Assuming your kids are at all like my 18 month old girl and my brother's two boys were between 1 and 3 years old, riding on the bike with the kid in the trailer can be a nice way to break up the insanity of chasing them around all day. It's physical work, but can offer mental respite.
My bro calls it the 'Keep them moving entertainment method.'
This obviously doesn't work for kids who detest a trailer ride, but my nephews and daughter seem to love it, as long as they're well fed/hydrated, have some toys, and get a break to run around for a few minutes every half hour or so (which works well when running errands!).
BIG-E
06-17-07, 11:24 PM
Always carry extra clothing. At least a breathable water resistant shell. Places like campmor.com and backcountryoutlet.com have great deals on them. Pit zips are essential. Having the shell on will at least keep you warm enough to ride through just about anything, even if you get soaked overall.
And don't ride in cotton! It holds sweat and doesn't insulate very well. There's lots of good deals on poly and wool, you just have to look around. Campmor has poly tees for about $10. I've found poly long underwear at WalMart for under $10. You will be MUCH more comfortable once you ditch the cotton. COTTON IS ROTTEN!!!!!