Actually, Boulder, CO- 97 percent of arterial roads are bike laned....

those are League of American Bicyclists stats, quoted from a Wall Street Journal article, CBHI.

I'm not 'making this stuff up' dude.
I know where your dishonest stats came from. Why won't LAB provide the data behind those stats?
Why don't you provide some honest stats like I asked.

Whatsa madda? This thread isn't funny no more unless kept devoted to Macha's and your clever bike lane hysteria repartee? :rolleyes:
Is ILTB feeling left out, OH.:p
I am still having fun.:D

Is ILTB feeling left out, OH.:p
I am still having fun.:D
Sure, this can be like a Paris Hilton game: Is she really that dumb?:rolleyes:

Sure, this can be like a Paris Hilton game: Is she really that dumb?:rolleyes:
OH, you are feeling left out, how sad.

come on, grumpy!

you too, could ride vehicularily in a bike lane! So could machka....

I might be wrong about CBHI and Machka, but I bet they could both negotiate this road by riding out of the door zone and in the bike lane, simultaneously! imagine that, is it blasphemous to the rabid foresterites?

riding vehicularily in a bike lane!

Still waiting for some honest statistics on Boulder!

who cares what you're waiting for? you don't like bike lanes! you think the LAB is no longer credible, once they sent john forester PACKING?

this thread was a tongue in cheek attempt by a canadian to dis bike infrastructure.

I know where your dishonest stats came from. Why won't LAB provide the data behind those stats?
Why don't you provide some honest stats like I asked.

Oh, his stats are probably honest ... as I recall, Boulder has about 3 arterial roads ... what's 95% of 3?

I know that the road the hostel is on does not have bike lanes. We were there during the first week of classes. I sat in the window of the hostel and watched the kids in the frat houses get drunk and make absolute idiots of themselves on that road, and the side walk, and the lawns, and the porches of the houses ..... But after one night there, we packed up and moved headquarters out to Louisville, and we used the side streets to make that move ... and none of them had any bike lanes.

We made a trip back into Boulder the next day to get supplies, and tried very hard to avoid those arterial roads. What a zoo!! If you ever go to Boulder, I'd advise staying clear of anything but the side streets.

:roflmao:

Here are my preferred types of roads ... I spent about a month cycling on the road in the first picture, and ones just like it, in Queensland. The second is a road in Wales.

And fortunately there are lots around here that are similar, although a little less jungle-like than the first photo.

Delightfully empty roads. :) :)

Here are my preferred types of roads ... I spent about a month cycling on the road in the first picture, and ones just like it, in Queensland. The second is a road in Wales.

And fortunately there are lots around here that are similar, although a little less jungle-like than the first photo.

Delightfully empty roads. :) :) Machka,
Was there one city you minded a bit less than the others, or actually liked riding in?

When you are forced to ride in or through a city, what types of streets do you prefer to ride on?

When you people use the term "bike lane", you mean "shoulder", right? And if so ... why do you call it a "bike lane"?


I have often had the same question. Many times I have seen pictures of "bike lanes" and they look like just a shoulder, with maybe a bicyclist stencil on it. Sometimes they are an actual lane, but many are what I consider a shoulder.

The closest thing I have to a "bike lane" is a shoulder. It used to be a simple shoulder and then they painted some bike stencils on it and some "share the road" signs. Maybe some would call it a bike lane now. It is still just a shoulder, with a little more paint.

-D

When you people use the term "bike lane", you mean "shoulder", right? And if so ... why do you call it a "bike lane"?
I have often had the same question. Many times I have seen pictures of "bike lanes" and they look like just a shoulder, with maybe a bicyclist stencil on it. Sometimes they are an actual lane, but many are what I consider a shoulder.

The closest thing I have to a "bike lane" is a shoulder. It used to be a simple shoulder and then they painted some bike stencils on it and some "share the road" signs. Maybe some would call it a bike lane now. It is still just a shoulder, with a little more paint.

-D
Well, I did not see very many bike lanes when I was in Boulder. Which is why I did not believe the BS 95% number or Bek’s pumped up 97%.

Here is one more way LAB and Bek try and feed false data to us:

“192 miles of on-street bike lane miles (including shoulders) serve bicyclist along roadways.”

http://www.bicyclefriendlycommunity.org/Images/bfc_pdf_pages/boulder.pdf

Neither LAB or Bek noted that the count included plain old break down shoulders that have been there before bike lanes were even invented.

Neither LAB or Bek noted that the count included plain old break down shoulders that have been there before bike lanes were even invented.

Don't get me wrong. I am perfectly happy with the shoulder I can ride on the road for which I was speaking.

The issue is this. It is a shoulder. And is used as such. I ride in it (since traffic moves along at 50MPH). Cars use it as a breakdown lane (not too often).

So some politician decides to paint it up to look more like a bike lane. The politicians get to tout how they have added X miles of bike lanes.

But my shoulder is the same. Even painted up to look like a bike lane, I use it the same way, and so do the cars.

-D

Machka,
Was there one city you minded a bit less than the others, or actually liked riding in?

When you are forced to ride in or through a city, what types of streets do you prefer to ride on?

A city I minded a bit less, or even liked .... hmmmm ........ that's a tough one! Cities have all together too much traffic, people, and congestion for my liking.

When I got my heart rate monitor I was living in Winnipeg, and I used it quite a bit under different circumstances to see what my heart was doing. I made a very interesting discovery. When I cycled in the city, my heart rate would sit around 140 bpm, but once I got out into the country, it would settle down to about 125 bpm. It happened that way every time I wore my heart rate monitor. Cities make me tense!

But let's see.

Grande Prairie, Alberta reached "city" status (pop. 47,000) when I lived up there, and it wasn't too bad when I lived up there. It was a very small city then (about 30,000 people), the traffic was fairly light, and the roads were quite wide. I didn't ride in Grande Prairie very often (I lived in a very small town a little ways away), but when I did, it wasn't bad.

Kamloops, BC is also a city (pop. 80,000), and it wasn't too bad. Again it is a small city with light traffic, and wide roads (or at least, that's how it seemed in 2002). The only problem I had with Kamloops is that getting from one side of the city to the other involves pretty serious climbs and decents, and hills aren't my specialty.

Brandon, MB, also a city (pop. 41,000), was OK. Small city, light traffic, wide roads. Hmmmm ... there's a pattern forming here.

Davis, CA is incorporated as a city (pop. 64,000) was good. It's a college town, and I was there in the summer, so there was no one around. The streets were empty!

Cheyenne, Wyoming (pop. 54,000) was pleasant. Again it was very, very quiet, light traffic, wide roads, etc. ... at least in the area where I cycled.

Loughborough, England (pop. 58,000) was all right ... especially at about 6 am on a Sunday when no one was about yet.

Calais, France (pop. 125,000) wasn't bad for the size it is. I got lost there, but the people were very nice and despite the fact that my French was limited, I got where I was going just fine. And I don't recall the traffic being too bad.

Hobart, Tasmania (pop. 202,000) was decent as far as traffic goes, but the terrain was challenging. However, I had to include it in this list because I thoroughly enjoyed that city ... it is probably the one city I would want to live in. For some reason, I felt right at home there.

Canberra, ACT (pop. 332,798) ... I'm surprised in many ways when I see the population of Canberra. My impression of that city was that it was one large, sprawling collection of neatly arranged houses and businesses, etc., and yet almost completely devoid of people. An empty city. I don't know where they all were. Canberra is an urban planners dream (or nightmare?). It is a contrived city ... it didn't happen naturally like most cities. So it is laid out in a pretty pattern of, essentially, circles. And the roads are all very wide and smooth ... and empty.

----------
So in answer to the question "what types of streets do you prefer to ride on?" .... I prefer to ride on wide, smooth, empty streets. Unfortunately, those are rather uncommon features in a city. :D

I'd rather not be bothered with bike lanes in a city, although I do like shoulders on highways. I would much prefer for the road (or the lane next to the curb) to be about 2 feet wider than normal. That would allow me to ride comfortably along side the traffic, if there is any, without dealing with any bike lane "right of way" issues. I was actually on a traffic committee in Winnipeg for a year or two, and I lobbied for wider roads, with cycling in mind, and also to accommodate the ever-growing vehicle sizes. Sadly, the city decided to go with narrower roads (they built up the sidewalks and other street furnishing to make them narrower) with slowing traffic down in mind.

I like smooth, clean streets, where I don't have to be dodging broken glass, rocks, other debris, and potholes all the time. Most of the cities mentioned above were pretty good for that, but I'd have to say that the best city I've ever ridden in, in the category of "smooth, clean streets", would have to be Abbotsford, BC. The traffic is atrocious there, but the streets are nice. The worst in that category would probably have to be Winnipeg. I commuted on a mountain bike there with good reason!!

Don't get me wrong. I am perfectly happy with the shoulder I can ride on the road for which I was speaking...
I completely understand. Boulder was known as a great cycling town in the 1970s without any bike lanes. They do not need to play these games.

Boulder, I like.
The Boulder politicians playing these games, I do not like.

Here are my preferred types of roads ... I spent about a month cycling on the road in the first picture, and ones just like it, in Queensland. The second is a road in Wales.

And fortunately there are lots around here that are similar, although a little less jungle-like than the first photo.

Delightfully empty roads. :) :)
Machka, that's all well and good that you love riding long distances on the open, empty road, but you know perfectly well that "bike lanes" or whatever, are not intended for you and don't apply to your kind of riding. They are an attempt (good or bad, depending on your point of view) to accomodate cyclists in urban areas with heavy traffic.
The paved shoulder that you displayed in an earlier post is a completely different animal. It is a fluke that it is available for cyclists. It's really intended for motororists who have to pull over for whatever reason, or who accidentally drift out of the lane at speed, so they don't suddenly lose control.

The paved shoulder that you displayed in an earlier post is a completely different animal. It is a fluke that it is available for cyclists. It's really intended for motororists who have to pull over for whatever reason, or who accidentally drift out of the lane at speed, so they don't suddenly lose control.

Is it? I think you may be missing Machka's point. The only "Bike lane" I have on my 32 mile commute to work is a shoulder that has been marked up as a "bike lane" Do you really think motorists treat it any different than when it was just a shoulder?

My answer is no. Motorists pull over in it all the time. Swerve into it to pass a left turning vehicle.

Like I said before, I am happy that the shoulder is there. But I make no illusion that it is any safer now than when it was an unmarked shoulder.

Granted the cost to paint the road and put up some signs is likely low in the grand scheme of a gov't budget. And I'd rather have the signs there than nothing. But mostly it just gives politicians a talking point "our administration created X miles of bike lanes in our term, yay us"

-D

Machka, that's all well and good that you love riding long distances on the open, empty road, but you know perfectly well that "bike lanes" or whatever, are not intended for you and don't apply to your kind of riding. They are an attempt (good or bad, depending on your point of view) to accomodate cyclists in urban areas with heavy traffic.
The paved shoulder that you displayed in an earlier post is a completely different animal. It is a fluke that it is available for cyclists. It's really intended for motororists who have to pull over for whatever reason, or who accidentally drift out of the lane at speed, so they don't suddenly lose control.
Of course she knows it. But she and her pal from Hawaii are just having a blast mocking all those incompetent losers from urban areas who don't know Real Cycling and aren't satisfied with using the shoulders on lightly traveled roads.

Of course she knows it. But she and her pal from Hawaii are just having a blast mocking all those incompetent losers from urban areas who don't know Real Cycling and aren't satisfied with using the shoulders on lightly traveled roads. Possibly....

I'm in the opposite position of Machka. I do most of my riding in the city, and I like it. A few times every summer I ride on country roads, sometimes with a MTB and sometimes with a road bike. I enjoy that too, but I get a little scared because I'm not so used to it. Maybe Machka feels the same way when she's riding in the city?

I do like the country roads with a paved shoulder. I think they're nicer than the ones with no shoulder or a gravel one. One country road has a paved shoulder that's marked as a bike lane. To me, that's just as good as a paved shoulder -- but no better.

here's a rural shoulder on a highway speed road one of the vociferous Bike Forum VC-ists said they would ignore in favor of riding in the travel lane. ( this is NOT a bike lane, BTW, machka.. it's a shoulder)

A quixotic internet masquerade.

here's a rural shoulder on a highway speed road one of the vociferous Bike Forum VC-ists said they would ignore in favor of riding in the travel lane. ( this is NOT a bike lane, BTW, machka.. it's a shoulder)

A quixotic internet masquerade.

And what would it be with some "share the road" signs and a stenciled picture of a guy on a bike?


-D

What would it be in either case, derath?


good pavement, good road position for bicycling.

What would it be in either case, derath?


good pavement, good road position for bicycling.

And you wonder why I mostly just rag on you instead of trying to dialog. It is near impossible to have any dialog with you. You cannot even answer a simple question.

If someone posted a picture of a road like yours, except it had a stenciled picture on it, what would YOU call it. If it was referred to as a bike lane would you disagree and say "not that isn't a bike lane, it is a shoulder.

It's a pretty simple question. And essentially the crux of this thread.

-D

"VC AND THE RAGIN' CAGERS"

Just to clarify something ... I am NOT mocking anyone who lives in a city and has to cycle in the city, or chooses to cycle in the city. That is NOT what this thread is about. We all have our preferences of where we like to cycle and where we feel comfortable cycle, and IMO as long as we are all out there enjoying cycling, that's a good thing. :)

I have often had the same question. Many times I have seen pictures of "bike lanes" and they look like just a shoulder, with maybe a bicyclist stencil on it. Sometimes they are an actual lane, but many are what I consider a shoulder.

The closest thing I have to a "bike lane" is a shoulder. It used to be a simple shoulder and then they painted some bike stencils on it and some "share the road" signs. Maybe some would call it a bike lane now. It is still just a shoulder, with a little more paint.

-D

Exactly.

And the thing is this ... some time ago, someone decided it would be really nice to have paved paths for bicycles that wound their way around cities, these paths were built, and were called, "Bike Paths". Is anyone here old enough to remember "Bike Paths"? Well, all the dog walkers, and rollerbladers, and skateboarders, and little old ladies noticed these "Bike Paths" and thought they'd be a great place to walk their dogs, to rollerblade, to ride their skateboards, and to stroll. There are no more "Bike Paths" they are all now "MUPs".

Meanwhile shoulders have been around forever for the use of vehicles, but cyclists had their eye on them as being convenient places to ride out of the way of traffic. And we've been doing that on highways for years. Then more recently someone came up with the idea that it would be great to put shoulders in the city too, and paint a little bicycle on them, and call them "Bike Lanes". Well it is no surprise that the motorized vehicular traffic looks on them as shoulders. Just as "Bike Paths" became "MUPs", so "Bike Lanes" will likely return to their natural state of shoulders to be used by everyone.

And so I wonder what the big fuss about "Bike Lanes" is ... I've been riding quiet peacefully on shoulders all my life without getting all worked up about any rules surrounding them, or the fact that vehicles also use them. I figure if my city puts in "Bike Lanes" (and I highly doubt they will), I'll just treat them like I do shoulders. :)

Just to clarify something ... I am NOT mocking anyone who lives in a city and has to cycle in the city, or chooses to cycle in the city. That is NOT what this thread is about. We all have our preferences of where we like to cycle and where we feel comfortable cycle, and IMO as long as we are all out there enjoying cycling, that's a good thing. :)
I certainly agree with your clarification, though I would never gather that was your intent from your OP and follow up posts prior to the last. Thanks for getting to the real bottom line. Guess CB HI will have to get his jollies elsewhere.

I certainly agree with your clarification, though I would never gather that was your intent from your OP and follow up posts prior to the last. Thanks for getting to the real bottom line. Guess CB HI will have to get his jollies elsewhere.

I don't believe CB HI is mocking city dwellers either. :D

Then more recently someone came up with the idea that it would be great to put shoulders in the city too, and paint a little bicycle on them, and call them "Bike Lanes". )
Maybe that is what is going on in Canada. I have yet to see a shoulder/breakdown lane in any urban area, except on limited access highways, like Interstates; ever. Nor have I ever heard a peep about retrofitting any either.

actually, machka. that's not what bike lanes are, girl. I can see why you are confused and have some questions about bike lanes and bike infrastructure.

I'm still recommending a trip to Victoria, Vancouver, or Ottawa. maybe you could then understand what bike lanes and bike specific infrastructure in metropolitian areas is all about.

staying a country bumpkin won't help you understand big cities, and the progressive plans cities have to increase bicycling, make bicycling safer and encourage bicycling as transportation.

here's a rural shoulder on a highway speed road one of the vociferous Bike Forum VC-ists said they would ignore in favor of riding in the travel lane. ( this is NOT a bike lane, BTW, machka.. it's a shoulder)

A quixotic internet masquerade.
Yet, as I just pointed out, Boulder would count that as a "bike lane".


the progressive plans cities have to increase bicycling, make bicycling safer and encourage bicycling as transportation.
How does calling a shoulder a "bike lane", make bicycling safer?

and i'm positive you could ride there, in either case, safely and in a vehicular manner, CBHI.

Another, ignore the question reponse from Bek!

yeah, safe in either case.

your anti-accomodation hysteria is not very flattering, CBHI.

bike lane networks and bike infrastructure are quite a bit more involved and elaborate than just calling shoulders bike lanes, CBHI.

Again Bek,
How does calling a shoulder a "bike lane", make bicycling safer?

well, greater cognification of bikes for starters. additionally, once a shoulder becomes a bike lane, it is now a travel lane for bikes and would no longer be allowed for use as a shoulder by cars.

I am positive you could ride in any one of these scenarios, safely, dude.....using the shoulder OR the bike lane.

picture on left, bike lane that is not a shoulder. pic in center, shoulder that is not a bike lane. pic on right, suburban bike lane striped to the left of right turning traffic lane.

What a load of BS. Boulder was always a cycling city even in the 1960s and 70s (before bike lanes). Drivers knew cyclist were out there because they saw the cyclist, not because they saw some funny little painted man with a funny little hat thingy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davis_Phinney

what are you blabbering about? more of your sophmoric anti-accomodation hysterics?

additionally, once a shoulder becomes a bike lane, it is now a travel lane for bikes and would no longer be allowed for use as a shoulder by cars...
Right Bek, the funny little man keeps cars out of the way.

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2394/dcp03408vc9.th.jpg (http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dcp03408vc9.jpg)

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/2162/picture006ft3.th.jpg (http://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture006ft3.jpg)


http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/5348/dcp03400pu8.th.jpg (http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dcp03400pu8.jpg)


Edit: Matcka, I fixed my post to put thumbs in, sorry it got moved to below your response.

Check out some NYC bike lanes

http://nyc.mybikelane.com/

Right Bek, the funny little man keeps cars out of the way.

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2394/dcp03408vc9.th.jpg (http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dcp03408vc9.jpg)

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/2162/picture006ft3.th.jpg (http://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture006ft3.jpg)


http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/5348/dcp03400pu8.th.jpg (http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dcp03400pu8.jpg)


Edit: Matcka, I fixed my post to put thumbs in, sorry it got moved to below your response.


I rather suspect this is more the rule than the exception.

Or the city just lets them deteriorate like in my Calgary Bike Lane example in another thread.


Edit: I fixed my response. :)

....those parked cars are in violation of no parking in bike lane regs and should, would be ticketed and towed.

sounds like your community doesn't value bicycling as transportation, CBHI.

.... speed limit signs keep all the drivers doing the speed limit too....what a taut.

you anti-acomodation hysterics are not very flattering to you, CBHI. complain, complain, complain, while the world becomes more well accomodated for bicycling around your quixotic denials.

The dog chases his tail!:roflmao:

you anti-acomodation hysterics are not very flattering to you, CBHI. complain, complain, complain, while the world becomes more well accomodated for bicycling around your quixotic denials.

No hysterics and not complaining .... just pointing out the obvious and the common. And then getting on our bicycles and riding anyway ... and dealing with whatever we're faced with without getting all excited/irate about it. :)

No hysterics and not complaining .... just pointing out the obvious and the common. And then getting on our bicycles and riding anyway ... and dealing with whatever we're faced with without getting all excited/irate about it. :)
OK. As you have posted, you almost never have encountered bike lanes in your many years of cycling. So what exactly are you pointing out? And to whom? And based on what?

OK. As you have posted, you almost never have encountered bike lanes in your many years of cycling. So what exactly are you pointing out? And to whom? And based on what?

Does Burlington (pop. 27,000) have lots of bike lanes? Do the roads outside the town have shoulders?

Does Burlington (pop. 27,000) have lots of bike lanes? Do the roads outside the town have shoulders?
No bike lanes. The shoulders are not paved and are covered with river rock and are unsuitable for riding. Pictures below are along my daily commute 55 mph, 10' lanes, lots of traffic at all hours. I would love for the shoulder to be paved or at least have the surface milled and compacted, but I've never seen that in Iowa except on limited access roads like Interstates.

I've seen and cycled on plenty of good bike lanes while living and cycling for 10 years in Germany as well as visiting quite often in The Netherlands.

....those parked cars are in violation of no parking in bike lane regs and should, would be ticketed and towed.

sounds like your community doesn't value bicycling as transportation, CBHI.

.... speed limit signs keep all the drivers doing the speed limit too....what a taut.

you anti-acomodation hysterics are not very flattering to you, CBHI. complain, complain, complain, while the world becomes more well accomodated for bicycling around your quixotic denials.
Bicycle heaven in Seattle, right!
http://bikeseattle.org/2006/05/30/getting-there-cars-in-bike-lane-a-hazard-to-cyclists/

No bike lanes. The shoulders are not paved and are covered with river rock and are unsuitable for riding. Pictures below are along my daily commute 55 mph, 10' lanes, lots of traffic at all hours. I would love for the should to be paved or at least have the surface milled and compacted., but I've never sen that in Iowa except on limited access roads like Interstates.

So it's obvious that in your area bike lanes aren't common. Mine neither. And from what I've seen cycling and travelling in various places around the world bike lanes aren't exactly a dime a dozen. That's the obvious. In many parts of the world, the whole concept of bike lanes is completely hypothetical. And where they do exist, from what I've seen personally (in Boulder in particular), and in photos and articles, they seem to be commonly treated like shoulders. Sometimes you just have to laugh at the "bike lane" attempts of various cities.

But you deal with it, and still like to bike, right?




BTW, if you want a break from that kind of cycling ... if you head a little bit north-east to the Le Claire area (about 100 miles from you), the roads around there are pretty much empty, and some have narrow shoulders. It's quite pleasant cycling around there, and just across the river into Illinois. The photo was taken in Illinois, running along side the Mississippi.

Bicycle heaven in Seattle, right!
http://bikeseattle.org/2006/05/30/getting-there-cars-in-bike-lane-a-hazard-to-cyclists/

From the article:

"“In spite of this,” Braun says, “drivers disregard the signs and striping and drive in the bicycle lanes illegally, sometime for an entire block or two, until they make the left turn."

Wait, so you mean drivers disregard the law? OMG say it aint so:eek: I figured once they painted that little bike guy on the shoulder drivers would suddenly say "Oh NO! I can't touch the shoulder anymore!"

That being said, if bike lanes can truly get more cyclists on the road, IMO they are worth any potential downsides.

-D