does anyone really do this?

[e0richt]

I have a 4 lane road (2 each way)

traffic goes about 40-50 mph... moderate intensity...

actually need to make a left turn into a parking lot with an intersection near it but before it (in other words... I would pass the intersection to get to the parking lot) and no other intersection for quite a few miles...

I need to get there and based on my readings here and a few other sources... It has been suggested that
I need to get through gaps in the traffic to get to the left lane and from there make the turn into the parking lot (which could cause one to sit in the lane until a gap opens up...)

has anyone really done this and lived to tell the tale?
I have to admit, that I am somewhat reticent about trying this...

[Eli_Damon]

I have done this. It's a lot of waiting but eventually you can get through. If the parking lot is close beyond the traffic light, an alternative would be to turn left at the traffic light, pull over, and walk to the parking lot.

[Keith99]

I take it there is no center divider/left turn lane?

If there is not then I've never tried this and honestly can not think of any roads like that near me.

[kemmer]

If you don't feel comfortable doing that you probably shouldn't. I would cross in the crosswalk at the light and walk to your destination if it's not too far. I might even consider going the wrong way if it's too far to walk as longs as there's lots of shoulder and it's reasonably safe to do so.

[gosmsgo]

I think you should do it exactly like you would in a car.

If you are waiting to turn left in your car noone would just crash right into the back of you and noone would if you are on your bike either.

Make sure you SCAN, signal before making your move one lane at a time.

Its easy once you learn the principles. Not everyone is trying to kill bicyclists....it just seems like it when your new.

[Raiyn]

I might even consider going the wrong way if it's too far to walk as longs as there's lots of shoulder and it's reasonably safe to do so.
You can't have it both ways. The original poster should stick to what's legal, up to and including crossing dismounted at the crosswalk if they don't feel safe riding through the lanes. Under no circumstances should a mod (read authority figure) be advocating violation of the law.

[noisebeam]

How often do motor vehicle do this? Do they sit there stopped in the left lane with 50mph traffic approaching from rear? How many vehicles build up behind the stopped left turning car before a gap in oncomming traffic lets them complete the turn?
How frequent are such left turns options along this road?

Al

[AndrewP]

Since bikes are a lot slower than the cars you must be prepared to find the gap in the traffic early. Move to the centre of the road. If there are cars at the intersection waiting to turn left, pass them on their right, then move back to the centre line and wait for a gap in the opposing traffic to turn into your parking lot. As gosmsgo stated, drivers arent trying to kill you, and you wont be causing any obstruction to the flow.

[chephy]

It's doable. But if you're not comfortable, don't do it. Cross at the nearby intersection and find a way to safely get to the parking lot from there. How far away is the intersection from the parking lot?

[chephy]

Under no circumstances should a mod (read authority figure) be advocating violation of the law. Do you know for a fact that riding the wrong way on the shoulder/sidewalk in OP's location is a violation of the law? I sure don't.

[Helmet Head]

I have a 4 lane road (2 each way)

traffic goes about 40-50 mph... moderate intensity...

actually need to make a left turn into a parking lot with an intersection near it but before it (in other words... I would pass the intersection to get to the parking lot) and no other intersection for quite a few miles...

I need to get there and based on my readings here and a few other sources... It has been suggested that
I need to get through gaps in the traffic to get to the left lane and from there make the turn into the parking lot (which could cause one to sit in the lane until a gap opens up...)

has anyone really done this and lived to tell the tale?
I have to admit, that I am somewhat reticent about trying this...
Often the answer to such questions matches the answer to this question: What would you do if you were on a motorcycle or a motor scooter?

Once you get to the spot where you need to turn left, it doesn't really matter if you're on a bicycle or a motorcycle. So the only real significant difference between doing this on motorcycle or bicycle might be the part about how you get the point where you need to turn left.

Sounds like you need to start merging left before you get to the intersection because if you wait until after you cross the only way to get in position from the right side of the road would be like a pedestrian jay-walking perpendicularly (or nearly perpendicular) across the vehicular traffic lanes.

That means you need to know how to merge, probably with negotiation, across multiple lanes. This is a skill that should be practiced on low speed multi-lane roads first. In fact, I would start on an empty road. The first thing you need to get accustomed to doing is riding somewhere other than the right side of the road, because you have to do a multi-lane move in steps. There are two basic overall approaches, one involving one centerish steps/position per lane, and the other involving two near-edge steps/positions per lane. Which you use depends on lane width and personal preference.

Vehicular cyclists like John Forester will share lanes that are as narrow as 12 feet wide by "riding the lane lines". Others prefer to take the lane in those situations.

In any case, you also need to know how to look back over your shoulder for longer than a fraction of a second without drifting from a straight course. This should be practiced in an empty parking lot (ride along a straight stripe, look back, hold for a second or two, then look forward and make sure you're still on the stripe). Practice doing it while signalling left with your left arm (and be sure to hold your arm parallel to the ground, not sagging pointing 45 degrees down or something).

The basic idea for merging left is: you look back, signal, wait until there is a gap, and move left to your next spot, then repeat until you're in the leftmost through lane, and stay on the centerish-left side of it until you get to the point where you turn left, where you signal left, stop, and wait until there is a gap in oncoming traffic.

Obviously, the faster/busier the traffic gets, the more intimidating. But with practice, you will learn that looking back and signalling left is surprisingly effective at getting motorists to slow down to your speed to let you in. Once they do that, you move in front of them, and you have someone behind you "blocking". At that point you can move to the edge of the lane to indicate they can pass, or stay in a centerish position controlling the lane. Either way, you should already be starting the negotiating to move into the next lane over.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

[rando]

Don't put yourself in danger. do what you are comfortable with. personally, I would cross the street at the next intersection, turn 90 degrees, and cross to your destination. It doesn't make you a wimp and it is not incorrect to do this.

[Raiyn]

Do you know for a fact that riding the wrong way on the shoulder/sidewalk in OP's location is a violation of the law? I sure don't.

There was no mention of a sidewalk in that post. (It's called a sidewalk for a reason. You walk on it.)
I defy you to find me one state or province where the law states that bicyclists are allowed to go against traffic.
Going against traffic also violates some universal laws, specifically the laws of physics and common sense.
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/3817/wrongwaynu2.jpg

[Helmet Head]

http://img160.exs.cx/img160/4783/Ridewithtraffic1.jpg
Since energy is a function of the square of the velocity the difference in energy at 30 mph vs 60 mph is a factor of 4, not 2.

A 30 mph crash is not half the energy of a 60 mph crash, it's a quarter of the energy.

No?

[Raiyn]

Since energy is a function of the square of the velocity the difference in energy at 30 mph vs 60 mph is a factor of 4, not 2.

A 30 mph crash is not half the energy of a 60 mph crash, it's a quarter of the energy.

No?
Regardless it's still HALF the SPEED
Vectors (and thus forces) are added together by their components. When two forces act on an object, the resulting force, the resultant, is the vector sum of the original forces. This is called the principle of superposition. The magnitude of the resultant varies from the difference of the magnitudes of the two forces to their sum, depending on the angle between their lines of action. If the two forces are equal in magnitude but opposite in direction, then the resultant is zero. This condition is called static equilibrium, with the result that the object remains at its constant velocity (which could be zero).

[RomSpaceKnight]

I ride my bike like my motorcycle(vc). I us the previous stoplight to create a break in traffic to get over to the left. Then I wait in a turn lane or near the center line for the next light to create a break in traffic I can then cross. This is on Wellington Road north of Commissioners in London, Ontario.

If you have to dismount and become a pedestrian for a few dozen meters, do it, if the option is to be killed by a car.

[noisebeam]

Often the answer to such questions matches the answer to this question: What would you do if you were on a motorcycle or a motor scooter?

Once you get to the spot where you need to turn left, it doesn't really matter if you're on a bicycle or a motorcycle. ....

until you get to the point where you turn left, where you signal left, stop, and wait until there is a gap in oncoming traffic.
....

Good luck and let us know how it goes.
All advice about merging left, but none about sitting still on a bicycle 'controlling' the left lane of a 50mph road waiting for a gap to turn left across.

The only thing one can do is increase visibility and monitor faster rear approaching traffic to prepare for evasive action (to where?) if a vehicle does not slow or merge right to pass. One can stay left biased in that inside lane if it is wide enough to share, but that about it.

Anyway, the concern of the OP is not how to get there (they asked in a differnet thread) but how to prevent a rear end collision once there and stationary.

That is partly why I asked above about the road/traffic conditions. Are drivers used to and expecting the occasional stopped vehicle in the left lane or is what the OP cyclist doing unusual? If the later I would be very cautious about peforming this maneuver on a (narrow) bicycle.

Al

[Helmet Head]

Regardless it's still HALF the SPEED Yes, a 15/45 same direction crash is HALF the speed differential as a 15/45 opposite direction crash, but, more importantly, it's creates only a quarter of the energy.

Since you're trying to emphasize the relative advantages of same-direction over opposite, the fact that the advantages grow not linearly, but exponentially with speed differential is, I would think, important.

[Helmet Head]

All advice about merging left, but none about sitting still on a bicycle 'controlling' the left lane of a 50mph road waiting for a gap to turn left across.

The only thing one can do is increase visibility and monitor faster rear approaching traffic to prepare for evasive action (to where?) if a vehicle does not slow or merge right to pass. One can stay left biased in that inside lane if it is wide enough to share, but that about it.

Anyway, the concern of the OP is not how to get there (they asked in a differnet thread) but how to prevent a rear end collision once there and stationary.

That is partly why I asked above about the road/traffic conditions. Are drivers used to and expecting the occasional stopped vehicle in the left lane or is what the OP cyclist doing unusual? If the later I would be very cautious about peforming this maneuver on a (narrow) bicycle.

Al
I covered that by the motorcycle analogy. If it's reasonable to do it on a motorcycle, then do the same thing (whatever that is - stay in the middle, stay left, whatever) on a bike. If not, then not.

[Raiyn]

Yes, a 15/45 same direction crash is HALF the speed differential as a 15/45 opposite direction crash, but, more importantly, it's creates only a quarter of the energy.

Since you're trying to emphasize the relative advantages of same-direction over opposite, the fact that the advantages grow not linearly, but exponentially with speed differential is, I would think, important.
Give me the equation

[noisebeam]

I covered that by the motorcycle analogy. If it's reasonable to do it on a motorcycle, then do the same thing (whatever that is - stay in the middle, stay left, whatever) on a bike. If not, then not.
How does one know what is reasonable to do on a motorcycle?

Al

[AlmostTrick]

My workplace is on a narrow 4 lane 50+mph road with no left turn lane. Like your situation, one must slow and sometimes stop in the left traffic lane and wait for a gap to get into our driveway. Motor vehicles have rear end collisions here on a regular basis. I have witnessed one of these collisions up close while on my bicycle. (I come from the other direction and make a right)

I can commute in from either direction, but I don't even like making this left in my car. Twice in my car I have had to "abort" my left turn, gas it and go straight, when it became apparent by monitoring my rearview mirror that the vehicle behind was going to hit me. You won't see me trying this on my bicycle.

[Helmet Head]

How does one know what is reasonable to do on a motorcycle?

Al Ah. Good point. I was taking that as a given.

Given the description, it's hard to picture. How wide are the lanes, how fast is that raffic really moving? How many lanes do you have to cross? How far is the left turn from the driveway? How much oncoming traffic is there normally? How unusual is it for some to make a left like that there? Etc. etc. All those unknown factors go into determining whether it is reasonable to turn left there, on a bicycle or motorcycle. My point is IF it's reasonable on a motorcycle, then it should be on a bike too. It's a rule of thumb. I assume e0richt either knows whether it's reasonable to do this on a motorcycle there, or he will let us know if he's not sure.

[Helmet Head]

My workplace is on a narrow 4 lane 50+mph road with no left turn lane. Like your situation, one must slow and sometimes stop in the left traffic lane and wait for a gap to get into our driveway. Motor vehicles have rear end collisions here on a regular basis. I have witnessed one of these collisions up close while on my bicycle. (I come from the other direction and make a right)

I can commute in from either direction, but I don't even like making this left in my car. Twice in my car I have had to "abort" my left turn, gas it and go straight, when it became apparent by monitoring my rearview mirror that the vehicle behind was going to hit me. You won't see me trying this on my bicycle.
I gotta say, in conditions like that I probably would be hesitant about making a left turn too.

[Helmet Head]

Give me the equation

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/a/3/8/a38c32f3f00f593c1dc17692bc224c0f.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy#Newtonian_kinetic_energy)

[savage24]

My workplace is on a narrow 4 lane 50+mph road with no left turn lane. Like your situation, one must slow and sometimes stop in the left traffic lane and wait for a gap to get into our driveway. Motor vehicles have rear end collisions here on a regular basis. I have witnessed one of these collisions up close while on my bicycle. (I come from the other direction and make a right)

I can commute in from either direction, but I don't even like making this left in my car. Twice in my car I have had to "abort" my left turn, gas it and go straight, when it became apparent by monitoring my rearview mirror that the vehicle behind was going to hit me. You won't see me trying this on my bicycle.
+1!
I would not attempt the left turn the OP describes. Though it doesn't happen everyday, I have seen enough car on car collisions in the same left turn scenario to make me not want to take that chance. Like Almost Trick stated above, I would change my route (even if it meant riding out of my way) so that I approached the location from the other direction and made a right turn.

[CommuterRun]

Haven't seen the road, but I would most likely just make a left as if a motor vehicle.

If you're not comfortable with that you could turn left at the intersection, and cover the rest as a pedestrian.

Haven't seen the area the OP is riding in, but it could be that an alternate route may be much longer. I have to make one of two lefts on my commute home from work. To avoid these lefts means going the opposite direction on leaving my workplace, about doubles the distance, and gives me more intersections to navigate. Although, at those intersections I would be either going straight through, or turning right.

[JRA]

has anyone really done this and lived to tell the tale?Yes, I have done it. The fact that I am typing this proves that I lived.

It is doable but, honestly, there are things I'd rather do. Rather than do it on a regular basis, I'd look for another way to get to my destination.

All advice about merging left, but none about sitting still on a bicycle 'controlling' the left lane of a 50mph road waiting for a gap to turn left across.Excellent point. Merging left is one thing; sitting and waiting for a gap is at least an order of magnitude more concerning.

It's true that motorists don't want to hit bicyclists (there's too much paperwork) but motorists screw up sometimes. Rear-ending somebody waiting to make a left turn is one of the more common motorist screw-ups. Motorists waiting to make left turns get rear-ended all the time- I've seen it more than once- there's no reason bicyclists (who are harder to see) should be any different.

How does one know what is reasonable to do on a motorcycle?Call the VC dogma hotline at 1-800-nutcase. They'll prolly tell you that every lane is a bike lane, every road is a bicycle facility, or some similar stupid crap.

The left turn in question is doable and survivable but I wouldn't plan a regular route that required it if a reasonable alternative existed. There are too many things that can go wrong -- things entirely beyond my control. I don't have that much confidence in the competence of motorists. A mistake by a motorist only has to happen once to ruin my day. I'd find another way to get where I wanted to go. I'd be willing to go out of my way to avoid being a sitting duck like that.

[SamHouston]

I have done this. It's a lot of waiting but eventually you can get through. If the parking lot is close beyond the traffic light, an alternative would be to turn left at the traffic light, pull over, and walk to the parking lot.

This is the correct method, the stigma against walking a bicycle the last hundred meters is a ridiculous one, isn't it? I have big brass balls and lots of experience, the situation as you describe it wouldn't faze me, but I'd probably merge faster and in smaller gaps, and require a smaller gap for the actual left turn than many cyclists I know, certainly many that I see couldn't or shouldn't attempt that sort of thing.

If I were with a cyclist that would likely be intimidated by a left across heavy arterial traffic I'd take them the safest way, which would be what Eli_Damon suggests.

[Bekologist]

I've done it. high visibility devices in the rear, daytime visible blinkies add a small degree of comfort due their greater cognizance to drivers from behind....

but its unnerving nonetheless. sometimes, I've sat on the centerline, waiting for a break in traffic.

but, there are other ways to ride it. use the intersection, crossover, and ride on the grass or sidewalk.

sometimes traffic flow on a busy road is such you can cross over early and ride wrong way for a short stretch- i'll call that, a la Robert Hurst, messenger style' -
wrong way riding as soon as its apparant you can make it to the parking lot and there is no traffic in the oncoming lanes.

or, breaking left as soon as you can, hopping the curb and riding grass or sidewalk.

are there sidewalks?

yes, be adaptive regarding how you approach this driveway. sitting in a fast lane of traffic to turn left is definetly unnerving, despite ones' familiarity with vehicular riding methods.

If this is your daily commute, you'll figure out what's best for you. be adaptive.

[bhtooefr]

I know the legality is weak, but what about going to the next light, and then pulling a U-turn when there's a gap, then moving over to the right lane, and turning right?

Works especially well when there's a left-turn signal and you can trip the sensor for it.

[wheel]

I've done it. high visibility devices in the rear, daytime visible blinkies add a small degree of comfort due their greater cognizance to drivers from behind....

but its unnerving nonetheless. sometimes, I've sat on the centerline, waiting for a break in traffic.

but, there are other ways to ride it. use the intersection, crossover, and ride on the grass or sidewalk.

sometimes traffic flow on a busy road is such you can cross over early and ride wrong way for a short stretch- i'll call that, a la Robert Hurst, messenger style' -
wrong way riding as soon as its apparant you can make it to the parking lot and there is no traffic in the oncoming lanes.

or, breaking left as soon as you can, hopping the curb and riding grass or sidewalk.

are there sidewalks?

yes, be adaptive regarding how you approach this driveway. sitting in a fast lane of traffic to turn left is definetly unnerving, despite ones' familiarity with vehicular riding methods.

If this is your daily commute, you'll figure out what's best for you. be adaptive.

agreed,

Talk to your city leaders see if a pedestrian cross walk (something) can be put in since you stated no lights for a long time.

You could also ride past your place and then do a U turn.
I find this easier since you your turn can be anywhere (you can even ride in the left lane).

I use all of the above.

[rideorglide]

Great post. You just about said all the thing's I'd have posted.

I face a similar situation in a morning commute, except my left turn is complicated by the fact that it is on a steep grade toward the end of a long climb, and the left turn continues on up a steeper climb.

There is a light/left turn lane, but practically, it doesn't mean much because it's a spot where rush-hour crazed motoristsin high-performance cars routinely, and illegally, accelerate into the left turn lane to cheat/overtake slower vehicles on the hill -- right where a cyclist would have to merge to the left at slow climbing speed.

The motorists there, don't expect cyclists and, like you say, it only takes one incompetent act to ruin not only your day, but your life.

On a weekend, with lighter traffic, I can negotiate this old single lane/no shoulder road, but on weekday morning's -- it's far and away the worst mile of road in a 13 mile commute, and just about unavoidable.

However, I can opt to shove ego aside, bail to the right and cross as a pedestrian at the light.
(Chances are I'm gonna have to wait for the light anyway.)

The percentages are not good there, and all it takes is one bad choice on the part of a motorist, and it's over.




I'd look for another way to get to my destination.

Excellent point. Merging left is one thing; sitting and waiting for a gap is at least an order of magnitude more concerning.

It's true that motorists don't want to hit bicyclists (there's too much paperwork) but motorists screw up sometimes. Rear-ending somebody waiting to make a left turn is one of the more common motorist screw-ups. Motorists waiting to make left turns get rear-ended all the time- I've seen it more than once- there's no reason bicyclists (who are harder to see) should be any different.

Call the VC dogma hotline at 1-800-nutcase. They'll prolly tell you that every lane is a bike lane, every road is a bicycle facility, or some similar stupid crap.

The left turn in question is doable and survivable but I wouldn't plan a regular route that required it if a reasonable alternative existed. There are too many things that can go wrong -- things entirely beyond my control. I don't have that much confidence in the competence of motorists. A mistake by a motorist only has to happen once to ruin my day. I'd find another way to get where I wanted to go. I'd be willing to go out of my way to avoid being a sitting duck like that.

[noisebeam]

Ah. Good point. I was taking that as a given.

Given the description, it's hard to picture. How wide are the lanes, how fast is that raffic really moving? How many lanes do you have to cross? How far is the left turn from the driveway? How much oncoming traffic is there normally? How unusual is it for some to make a left like that there? Etc. etc. All those unknown factors go into determining whether it is reasonable to turn left there, on a bicycle or motorcycle. My point is IF it's reasonable on a motorcycle, then it should be on a bike too. It's a rule of thumb. I assume e0richt either knows whether it's reasonable to do this on a motorcycle there, or he will let us know if he's not sure.
And your question echo those I asked in post #7.

I still don't know how to judge what is resonable for a motorcylist to do. Just because one has seen one turn there doesn't mean it was safe, perhaps a high risk taiking motorcyclist.
I've never driven a motorcycle. I've never taken a motorcycle safety course. I can't rely on observations of motorcyclists to know what is reasonable as I don't know them and their mindset and/or training.

But with first hand obeservations of conditions I would know what is reasonable to do on a bicycle. Since I can't be there first hand, I asked the questions in post #7.

Al

[ralph12]

If I were in that situation, I'd probably make a pedestrian-style left turn by pulling off to the right, and then walking across. I'm not usre if that's possible in the exact situation you describe, though. There's a road kinda like that around here.

[e0richt]

ok thanks for all the input. I guess I'm not ready for the full VC approach (unnerves me too much).

I have had no problems merging into the right lane from a bike lane so that I can avoid "right hook" scenarios and I have had no problems with taking a lane when needed.

However, I did the pull off the road across from the parking lot, wait for a complete gap and crossed as a jaywalking pedestrian. It worked but I wasn't proud of it either...

in addition there is a town that this road goes through that because of the traffic there, I decided to ride on the sidewalk for a short time (pedestrian speed)... not proud of that either.

[ghettocruiser]

in addition there is a town that this road goes through that because of the traffic there, I decided to ride on the sidewalk for a short time (pedestrian speed)... not proud of that either.

It sounds like you have a grasp of the hazards you may encounter both on the road and on the sidewalk, so go with your judgement call and don't give much thought about all us people on the internet throwing out acronyms and advice with little idea about your actual local conditions.

As for you not being proud about it, I think there is enough pride (vs. pragmatism) being thrown around on these threads to more than make up for it.

[rando]

Chipcom told me when I just started out commuting, "you don't have to prove anything to anybody"... it's good advice. do what you feel is safe and right in your situation.

[meldex]

Since energy is a function of the square of the velocity the difference in energy at 30 mph vs 60 mph is a factor of 4, not 2.

A 30 mph crash is not half the energy of a 60 mph crash, it's a quarter of the energy.

No?

The energy in both listed systems is the same.

It's the momentum that really makes the difference in a collision like this. (Energy is not going to be conserved but the momentum will be.)

momentum = mass * velocity

[Helmet Head]

The energy in both listed systems is the same.

It's the momentum that really makes the difference in a collision like this. (Energy is not going to be conserved but the momentum will be.)

momentum = mass * velocity
Are you suggesting that the energy in a 30 mph crash is the same as in a 60 mph crash?

[Bekologist]

more internet speculation....

both crashes will hurt.

[sbhikes]

If I was in that situation and didn't feel comfortable about it I wouldn't do it.

I was waiting to make a left turn once and was almost run over head-on by an old blue-haired lady who I could tell from looking at her face had absolutely no idea she almost ran me over.

Remember, a lot of motorists out there are on medication, half blind, on the phone or smacking the kids in the back seat. If you have to put yourself in a place where you're easy bait for these people and don't feel comfortable about it, don't do it.

[sggoodri]

ok thanks for all the input. I guess I'm not ready for the full VC approach (unnerves me too much).

I have had no problems merging into the right lane from a bike lane so that I can avoid "right hook" scenarios and I have had no problems with taking a lane when needed.

However, I did the pull off the road across from the parking lot, wait for a complete gap and crossed as a jaywalking pedestrian. It worked but I wasn't proud of it either...

Jaywalking implies an either illegal or unsafe crossing. It is not illegal or unsafe if (1) you yielded to drivers, and (2) there is no prohibition against crossing at that location. In most states, a location is not prohibited for pedestrians crossing unless the closest intersection in both directions is signalized.

There is some legal ambiguity as to when a driveway, especially an important one serving a whole parking lot, could be considered an intersection. From an operational standpoint, that's exactly what it is. If drivers may cross the road at that location, then in fairness, pedestrians ought to be allowed, too.

Left turn pockets tend to reduce rear-ending collisions between motor vehicles at left turns. The same improvement likely applies to cyclists turning left from the inside lane. However, it is usually not so dangerous as to warrant avoid doing it, given the increased level of convenience. If the traffic in both directions is so heavy as to make a vehicular left feel unsafe to you, then the length of time one will likely have to wait for a sufficient traffic gap in both directions in order to cross safely without signalization as a pedestrian may be very long. Assuming sight distances are adequate, it boils down to patience and judgement.

I prefer to make the vehicular left, unless the road is so unpleasant that I choose an alternate route anyway. Most important roads end up with left turn pockets at important locations.

[e0richt]

Jaywalking implies an either illegal or unsafe crossing. It is not illegal or unsafe if (1) you yielded to drivers, and (2) there is no prohibition against crossing at that location. In most states, a location is not prohibited for pedestrians crossing unless the closest intersection in both directions is signalized.

There is some legal ambiguity as to when a driveway, especially an important one serving a whole parking lot, could be considered an intersection. From an operational standpoint, that's exactly what it is. If drivers may cross the road at that location, then in fairness, pedestrians ought to be allowed, too.


ok, didn't know that, so maybe I wasn't a jaywalker...


Left turn pockets tend to reduce rear-ending collisions between motor vehicles at left turns. The same improvement likely applies to cyclists turning left from the inside lane. However, it is usually not so dangerous as to warrant avoid doing it, given the increased level of convenience. If the traffic in both directions is so heavy as to make a vehicular left feel unsafe to you, then the length of time one will likely have to wait for a sufficient traffic gap in both directions in order to cross safely without signalization as a pedestrian may be very long. Assuming sight distances are adequate, it boils down to patience and judgement.

I prefer to make the vehicular left, unless the road is so unpleasant that I choose an alternate route anyway. Most important roads end up with left turn pockets at important locations.


well, if there were left turn pockets on this road, I might have tried the vehicular left turn.
and for a specific location there are usually a limited number of routes you can take..

[tlc]

Often the answer to such questions matches the answer to this question: What would you do if you were on a motorcycle or a motor scooter?

This is fatally stupid. On a motorbike I have superior delta-v (+ and -) to a car, better visibility, and I'm a hell of a lot louder.

Do NOT ride a bicycle as you would a motorcycle. You'll end up as paste.

3 years as a motorcycle DR (20 years riding, upwards of 1x10^6 miles,) and 2 years as a bicycle messenger's experience here.

OP, pull over, cross on foot, whatever... don't play games with 2-ton cars that you are going to eventually lose...

[meldex]

Are you suggesting that the energy in a 30 mph crash is the same as in a 60 mph crash?


Not at all. I'm suggesting that if you have two moving objects, that the direction of motion is irrelevant to the quantity of energy involved. (Energy is a scalar quantity not a vector, it has no inherent direction)

Its the momentum that is significant because it will determine how much the energy the system will lose at the moment of impact (thus how much force is involved in the impact).

My point (and I do have one) is that the force of the impact from a head on collision vs. a rear end collision is more determined by momentum, which is a linier function of velocity.

Therefore Raiyn's that the "force" in the second impact in half is correct (even though he said energy it should be force)

[Raiyn]

Not at all. I'm suggesting that if you have two moving objects, that the direction of motion is irrelevant to the quantity of energy involved. (Energy is a scalar quantity not a vector, it has no inherent direction)

Its the momentum that is significant because it will determine how much the energy the system will lose at the moment of impact (thus how much force is involved in the impact).

My point (and I do have one) is that the force of the impact from a head on collision vs. a rear end collision is more determined by momentum, which is a linear function of velocity.

Therefore Raiyn's that the "force" in the second impact in half is correct (even though he said energy it should be force)Ok I'll fix it then.
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/3817/wrongwaynu2.jpg

[Carusoswi]

You can't have it both ways. The original poster should stick to what's legal, up to and including crossing dismounted at the crosswalk if they don't feel safe riding through the lanes. Under no circumstances should a mod (read authority figure) be advocating violation of the law.

I wouldn't feel uncomfortable making a left by sitting in the left lane, but, if the oncoming lane is clear and it is safe to cross early, I would not hesitate to do that, law or no law. In my area there is a particularly busy intersection, three lanes each way. I can make like a car and hold my position in the left turn lane, but, in a long line, heavy traffic, it's hard for me not to take up space and hold up traffic (just a bit, but enough to cause frustration to drivers behind me) because I cannot start up as quickly in a line of traffic as cars can (and to make the left as a car does, one might have to wait through three or four light cycles).

The nature of the light timing causes the three oncoming lanes to be empty of traffic during certain cycle times of the light. It is very simple and safer to cross early to the left, slip up onto the sidewalk, cross into adjacent parking lots, and travel to the corner out of traffic (most of the businesses are closed at the hour I travel this area).

The maneuver is not by the book, may be illegal for a car, probably not technically legal for a bike, but, I've made that move many times in front of police with no reaction from them at all.

The bottom line for me is safety. I can fight a ticket or choose to pay it, and would take either of those choices over risking my personal well-being.

I do not think the moderator is advocating breaking the law so much as he/she is advocating safety above and beyond all.

Walking may be more legal, it may or may not be more safe.

Caruso

[Carusoswi]

I know the legality is weak, but what about going to the next light, and then pulling a U-turn when there's a gap, then moving over to the right lane, and turning right?

Works especially well when there's a left-turn signal and you can trip the sensor for it.

Or going to the corner of the current light, making a right, then a U-turn at the first safe opportunity, and then cross back through the interesection.

Often, the path of least resistance can be safer than the shortest path.

Caruso

[bhtooefr]

Well, this intersection isn't at a light, as I understand.