Touring - Disappointing Bike Vermont weekend (long)

As I am an inexperienced biker, when I decided to go on this Bike Vermont weekend, I made sure to register for the "easier" tour and also specified that I am not a very confident biker and do only trail and park riding. They assured me that everyone rides at his or her own pace. Well, the big problem for me was that no one was riding at my pace. Although they bike through beautiful, picturesque towns, all of the riding is on the road. So it went something like this...I would ride and little and when I saw cars coming in my rearview mirror, I would walk my bike.
On Saturday morning, it went pretty ok as one of the leaders hung out with me. After lunch, however, I found myself completely alone...on my bike, off my bike...for a number of miles until the van "rescued" me. The other parts of the trip were great: the accomodations, food, etc. But this is definitely something for more experienced, confident bikers. I think I'll stick to the rail trails!!

Confidence riding on the road definately needs to be gained gradually and it sounds like you were thrown to the wolves here lol.Also its definately no fun touring if you are constantly behind the rest of the group .We found that out on a group tour whenever anyone fell behind and it seemed someone always did.When it was my turn after 5days of riding(the others had only done 4)and my legs didn't have anything in them I was ready to just head north on my own but I didn't and actually got a second wind in the afternoon(actually going into a strong headwind no less)and left everyone else in the dust during the afternoon.So try not to let it discourage you and continue riding on the trails and build up miles and gradually even start adding road sections you are confortable on(ie low traffic/wide lane).This is the way I did it and I now ride on very congested road without any second thoughts however I always stay far enough over cars can get past without having to change lanes.

That is ridiculous.

Whoever is in charge of the tour needs to ensure that there aren't people riding alone- if you are the last one in the group, there really should be someone there to tail you- I mean, what if you run into trouble along the way? Who's going to be there to help you out? That makes no sense. They definitely should have people hired to ride at different points to ensure that no one is alone, and it should have been planned a bit better- like they just have a group of folks who ride 10- 15 miles per hour, another group of folks who do 15- 20 miles per hour, etc. and put two people in charge of each group- one to lead the front, and another to bring up the rear.

Of course, this is all wishful thinking on my part! :rolleyes:

I dont think tours like this are designed for newbie riders of a nervous disposition, and it was pretty poor form for them to accept you.
You may be better off with a buddy rider to learn how to handle roads and traffic. Possible sources may include some bike shop noticeboards, some campaign groups, such as
http://www.transalt.org/about/index.html
http://members.aol.com/trudyth/index.htm

http://www.nybc.net/resources/

:( Sorry to here you had bad time in vermont.This is one reason I stay away from some organized tour groups.They tell you one thing just to get your money.Yes we all ride at a different pace.You will be fine:rolleyes: Then when you start riding you thing your on a training ride for the TDF.

Next time you want head up this way give me a PM.I'll ride with you at your on pace and show you some of the sights and sounds of this part of country.:)

What bugs me when I hear stories like this is he paid good money to be dumped on. I am not sure why anyone would pay good money to join an organized tour if they don't do anything for you. In fact, we should work with each other to plan our own trips and save the overhead of a paid organizer.

yes, we should use the bikeforums to arrange for our own organized rides. I bet we could do a much better job for free here!


Koffee

Originally posted by Koffee Brown
That is ridiculous.

Whoever is in charge of the tour needs to ensure that there aren't people riding alone- if you are the last one in the group, there really should be someone there to tail you- I mean, what if you run into trouble along the way?

Agreed. It is ridiculous. It's not like they didn't know about it because BraidsL informed them that he was "not a very confident biker", so they knew that all along. I know that when I'm doing rides with Bicycle Gold Coast, I make a point of staying with new riders who are struggling - even if it does mean I have to slow down to wait for them. After all, if they run into trouble they may not know how to deal with it.


Originally posted by MichaelW
I dont think tours like this are designed for newbie riders of a nervous disposition, and it was pretty poor form for them to accept you.

Yes, it was poor form of them, but I sometimes wonder what would have happened had they not accepted him. Would we be reading a threat about discrimination now? OK, maybe I'm jumping to conclusions about BraidsL, and I apologise if that appears the case. My point is that if rides of this nature start "rejecting" people on that basis, these accusations might start to surface.

Personally I think they should include some information about the level a rider should be at to do a tour like this. If a tour isn't suitable for park riders, they should state that in the brochure. What I find ridiculous is that the company didn't specify this when they were contacted. Would that really be so difficult?

I agree with this as well.In fact my first and only group tour was done in just this way ie four of us met and planned trip on this forum and it turned out much better than an organized tour as our riding styles were somewhat compatable. However after that experience I kept trying to organize similar "informal"tours but everything always seemed to fall apart during the talking stage or not much interest was generated so I just started doing solo tours which I also like as much if not better because you can go at your own pace and not worry about keeping up(or listen to complaining from whoever wasn't) etc.I would still like to do a informal tour to the Keys or elsewhere if there was interest but to tell you the truth I have just about given up planning such trips as it seems most people are day riders or at least organized group riders these days.

I want to thank everyone for their responses to my post about my weekend in Vermont. (Just a point of information...I'm a lady, not a guy. It's kind of funny seeing yourself referred to as "he.)
In their brochure it says that some of their participants are experienced riders and some are casual riders. I spoke to them several times about my experience or lack of same and of my apprehension. They assured me I would be fine. They even said that there was a woman who had done a tour with them who previously had not biked more than one mile. Mileage was not the issue for me. I had recently completed the 42 mile BIKE NY ride. What was not specified was the fact that you would be sharing the roads, which had no shoulders or bike lanes, with cars. As I said before it was not really a negative experience as everyone involved was really nice and no one made me feel like an outcast. I simply learned that this type of tour is not for me. Lorraine

Lorraine

It's been almost 40 years since I've been to Brooklyn, to visit a friend. I think they missled you but Brooklyn was very crowded then so maybe they expected that you had more traffic experience. I think some one should have ridded with you, as Chris said. When I was in Vermont last spring the drivers were very courtious and gave me lots of room when I was passed on those narrow roads.

To keep this from happening you should aske very specific questions. I know there was no way for you to know that before the ride. I guess that is why I am writing this so others can think about it before joing a ride.

joe

There is a need for balance here. I'm probably going to sound a little heavy-handed, but it's come from experience as a tour guide, tour operator and ride organiser.

There is no indication to me in Lorraine's postings of how commercially oriented this ride was, or whether it was simply a club outing. Either way, usually there is a disclaimer that must be read and signed by the participant on registration indicating that they consider themselves physically capable of doing the ride, that they are aware the route is on public roads, the ride has an element of danger, they agree to abide by road laws, behave appropriately, etc, etc. If there is no such disclaimer, then there might be a problem already with how this ride was organised.

I think it would be fair for the organisers to believe that in lodging an entry (given the registration scenario above), a rider would be at least capable of riding on the road with other traffic.

In addition, unless the ride promoted the concept of "Bike Buddies" there is no obligation on them to have someone ride *with* a participant for the whole distance. Lorraine said there was a ride leader who did actually undertake this, but there were others that also may have needed attention from that leader, and he/she may have judged Lorraine capable of riding by herself in the afternoon.

As to the social nature of the other participants... who knows. If it's like many rides in which I've had exerience, the fast ones disappear in a cloud of dust without a care for anything else except the clock. The moderately paced ones break into their own groups, and the slow ones likewise group further back. Stops for regrouping, hydration, food and *head-counts* also are useful for ride organisers.

In addition, it was not as though Lorraine was left to fend for herself entirely in the afternoon... there was a SAG vehicle which performed its designed task and picked her up when she had had enough (or ride personnel judged that she needed to be rescued for physical or scheduling reasons).

I can't help but feel that this also was one occasion when a rear-vision mirror was more a hindrance than a help, a-la- Lorraine getting off everytime she saw a vehicle in the mirror coming up behind her.

I am not saying Lorraine was in the wrong here. Far from it. But I also think there needs to be some caution in emotively defaming the ride organisers who appeared to have delivered, in large part and on Lorraine's description, on their side of the deal. It seems that Lorraine's expectations were not met by the ride organisers. But as to whose fault that is, remains somewhat nebulous.

Now, Lorraine, if you are still with me (and I really really hope you are)... You feel put off by all this. Don't be. Chalk it up to experience. Provide nicely phrased feedback in writing to the ride organisers. They may need to be more explicit in specifying the appropriate rider experience for participants. They may also need to understand that there are indeed people much less experienced than their average customers. Mix your comments in with a little praise for those experiences you did find positive. A little bit of sugar helps the medicine go down.

As to returning to the trails, etc... you feel comfortable with the support you got from the other posters, but they all failed to say something that's more important than anything:

You are going to miss out on a whole new world of experiences in cycle touring if you limit youself to trails, and never go out on the roads.

Trail riding often means driving to the trail heads, rather than making a full expedition of it. You can't even explore you own neighbourhood unless you use the roads.

There is some very useful advice contained in the Commuting forum that has been posted recently. So much of that information can be applicable to you in gaining confidence in traffic.

But, my own advice to you is to follow up with the ride organisers and see if there is a course (Effective Cycling or something similar) that you can enrol in close to where you are. Even if it's not close by, find one and do it anyway. This will give you the skills, knowledge and confidence to ride on trafficked roads, and you will enjoy all your cycling experiences so much more.

The next step after that is (and the best way I have seen it put): Get out and play on the roads.

FWIW

R

PS: Group expectations and dynamics are not easy for any group ride organiser. Neither is dealing with the associated risks and all the "what-if" scenarios, and ensuring as many as possible are covered. In this case, the food, accommodation and scenery were all great, plus the SAG van rescue worked. How could Lorraine have paid good money to be dumped on?

I'm going to balance this back to the other side.

Rowen, while I may agree with some of what you say, I don't necessarily agree with everything you said.

First of all, she said that she spoke with them several times about her apprehension about riding and her inexperience- that should have told them right off the bat that the route they planned would not work for her. Had they been an experienced bike tour company, I'm sure they would have either stressed to her that there were roads with no shoulders, or that the roads travelled would be highly trafficked. Instead, they reassured her that the riding would be do-able for her levels, and they neglected to mention to her how much traffic would be on the roads. I think they were fully aware of her fears, but in their greed to make the money, they paid her much lip service to get the bucks out of her.

Sure they had a SAG van, but they left her alone out there on the road- I think any good, solid, reputable bike tour company would know better than to let an inexperienced rider fall so far behind so that she couldn't catch up with anyone in the group to the point where she had to depend on a SAG wagon to come and get her! Plus, she told them she only did trails and park riding, and they reassured her the route would be fine for her level of (in)experience, but when she gets on the road, suddenly they leave her on a highly trafficked road to fend for herself for the majority of the ride? That just doesn't make sense, except that these people were a bunch of greedy mo-fo's. Personally, if it had been me, I would have ended the ride early and went back home and requested a refund. In addition, these tour operators should specify that if you have NO experience with riding in the streets, you really won't be comfortable with the ride, as it is all streets, and there is high traffic in the area. That would have made it clear to me exactly what kind of ride was being planned. Then let me make the choice on whether I want to deal with that kind of situation when I'm riding.

Sure, she panicked when she was looking through the rearview mirror- that's too bad. But they certainly neglected to stress to her that it was street riding after she made attempts to stress to them that she only did trail riding. I rmemeber when I transitioned from trails and paths to streets- I was terrified, I thought every car was aiming for me, and I felt like my stomach was going to come up my esophagus and out onto the street every time a car would whizz past me- a good tour operator would have the sensitivity to anticipate these kinds of feelings from an inexperienced cyclist and either discouraged her from going on the tour until she felt more comfortable, made sure there was a representative from the tour riding with the slowest riders (and encouraging them to continue riding in the traffic and not dismount so that they would end up falling far behind), or stressed to her that this tour was ALL ON THE ROAD, and tell her that it's pretty much a solo tour, so she's on her own.

As far as the what-if's scenarios- if a tour operator can't anticipate the different scenarios and situations that might arise and plan for them, I would NEVER go on that tour- that tells me they are unprepared, and probably, it's a sloppy operation being run. There's no excuse for a tour organizer to not be prepared in the event of an emergency, or if they lose a rider, or whatever else may crop up. I could personally never entrust my well being to an organization that doesn't plan for the what-ifs. I am not sure if that is what Rowen was referring to about the what ifs, but if it was, I won't be on any of his tours anytime soon...

FWIW, I don't think she wasn't aware of the fact that she would be on the street, and that's something I think all the posters are aware of. The problem arose because the tour operators downplayed the conditions of the road riding and gave her some song and dance about some lady they worked with who hadn't ridden more than a mile :rolleyes: . I think she WAS wanting to try and get out on the roads, and she was lulled into a false sense of security by the tour operator in this case. That's too bad, because really- road riding is the best! I like trails too, but given the choice, I'll always choose road over trail anyday! And this after I spent plenty of time doing ONLY trail riding before I was brave enough to hop on a road one day and see where the road would take me.

Braids, if I'm ever in your neck of the woods, or if you're in Chicago, I'd be happy to take you out on the roads so you can get more comfortable with road riding. Really, every driver isn't out to mow you down! ;) Then you don't have to go through some doofas tour operator to do something that you can do on your own. Seriously, like RWTD, I do solo tours and enjoy it. I can't stand riding with groups. I would rather ride on my own if I couldn't find anyone to ride with that was my level. I think it's the worst thing when you're riding with a person or a group of people, and you get left behind by yourself, and you are struggling to catch up, and it feels like you're all alone and no one gives a crap.... I wouldn't enjoy that type of ride. I don't care how good the food, scenery and accomodations are- the ride is crap if you feel like an inept, incapable, bumbling, snivelling complainer. That's no fun.

Good luck with getting out there in the roads!

Koffee

First I did suggest she gradually try to build up confidence on roads.Second while I did not blame the organizers to the extent others did given she spoke with them several times about her concorns I think the organizers should have at least mentioned road traffic experience needed rather than rely on a small print disclosure somewhere.IMO with so many people now concerned with the dangers of road riding /touring much of it irrational IMO the organizers may have downplayed what conditions to expect to avoid scaring too many of what few would even consider something like this off.People need to be made aware that cycling on the roads can be safe if you have confidence and experience to ride safely.I think encouraging inexperienced (road)riders to do a road tour is"throwing them to the wolves"and only in the best interest of the promoters short term profits and not the way to introduce more people to touring.
But really it seems like both sides were somewhat to blame here as she apparently didn't specifically mention her concerns of riding with traffic.But the bottom line to BraidsL is to gradually build up confidence on the road.I for a long time rode on the sidewalks of the roads I now ride on before gradually gaining confidence and proper riding habits on easier stretches to ride on more heavier trafficed roads .

Originally posted by Koffee Brown
I am not sure if that is what Rowen was referring to about the what ifs, but if it was, I won't be on any of his tours anytime soon...
I didn't make this personal at you, so why do so at me?

Bike Vermont appears, from its website, to be a reasonably reputable business, and has been operating for 25 years. Sure, that longevity doesn't recommend it as a right, but they sure must have been doing something right over that period to have survived. I would be interested to see the content of the packet they sent Lorraine as a registered participant, though.

I am not crusading for Bike Vermont. I'd never heard of them before today. I do know it's really hard to make a living out of bicycle touring.

But my main concern is the strident defamation of a business without more than a series of presumptions from a couple of sentences to substantiate it (yes, yes, I know, you can only defame a person's reputation, but in this case, the reputation of the principals conceivably is being damaged by implication of negligence).

R

It's kind of funny, but as crowded as NYC is, when I rode the streets there, admitttedly not after 1972, the traffic was easy to deal with and drivers easy to anticipate, but when I crossed the GW bridge and went up 9W, I found that traffic was a lot harder to deal with. Furthe, I have since biked in several other places, abnd can tell anyone that bicycling in NE DC, over by Minnesota avenue and the enning road bridge, was some of the scariest traffic I have ever ridden in (circa 1987). It is a matter of how well the drivers respect you, and I don't see any pattern which could help a rider anticipate how drivers will behave, as the neighborhood in the Bronx was sufficiently bad that I was much more afraid of robbers tha cars, and was much rougher than the section of NE DC where I found drivers to be extremely difficult to deal with. Likewise the section of 9W was in a moderately prosperous area. I think the only way to have a good idea of how the riding is would be to ask someone who regularly rides a given area, and those folks are here.

Rowan-

I did not make this personal at you. Unfortunately for you, you stated what your business was, and what your policies were for your business. As a potential customer, when I read what you state your policies are, I would not want to pay money to be on your tour. Period.

If you didn't want people commenting on your business, why use your business as the example? :confused:

Having said that, defamation is when you maliciously slander another individual. Slander is the act of stating false claims about an individual. In this case, you state your business practice, I write my opinions about your business practice, and I say this is not the type of business I would frequent. So defamation is not the appropriate explanation of what I was doing in my response. It's called free speech and opinion.... I am a thinking person who formulates opinions based on the evidence given- in this case, yours. If you didn't want people to comment on your business practices, it was imperceptive of you to state your business practices. When you use yourself as a example, please do not be obtuse or naive enough to assume no one will comment on them.

This is not personal- I do not know you. However, I wouldn't use your business for a tour... you simply do not deal with the what-ifs, and I prefer to deal with a company that is more prepared for any contingencies, whether seen or unforseen.

Koffee

<sigh>

I really am not sure if I can be bothered pursuing this any further. Anyone with a reasonable level of comprehension will see that I only put forward a balancing point of view based on my *experience* involved in organisation of tours and rides.

I did not state what my business was. I did not detail my risk management policies, other than to make a broad observation about the complexities involved. I never used my business (previous or current) as an example. I used my knowledge and my *experience* to put forward some reasons why Lorraine's expectation might not have been met by Bicycle Vermont, given the lack of opportunity they have in putting their case against what was strident criticism.

Koffee, I find your tone and language entirely disappointing for someone who is a moderator. I also now find that my expectations in being a BF member have not been met, and after this unpleasant experience, I am considering rescinding my membership.

R

Originally posted by Chris L
I know that when I'm doing rides with Bicycle Gold Coast, I make a point of staying with new riders who are struggling - even if it does mean I have to slow down to wait for them. After all, if they run into trouble they may not know how to deal with it.
Chris,

I could almost put a case for Qad Errat Demonstratum in reference to your dropkick post in General Discussion about the ride you led. But you'd only tell me there were no new riders!

Then again, your general dicussion could have been posted just to wind me up ;)

R

Rowan-

It's your choice whether or not you want to continue here at bikeforums.

If you can't learn to accept other people's opinions, that's something you have to deal with. There are plenty of people with differing opinions on this forum, and we all manage without resorting to kill one another... so far....

Again, you stated your experience as a tour operator, organizer, etc. as the example- I stated that your practices are not desirable to what I would want from a tour operator. You seem to become insulted by my opinions. Oh well.

I find your inability to accept my opinions based on YOUR statements to be disappointing. It is always disappointing to me to see that there will always be some people that cannot accept the opinions of their peers. The whole forum is based on opinions, and if you choose to stay on bikeforums, you will have to learn to accept not only my opinions, but everyone else's here.

Originally posted by Rowan
I could almost put a case for Qad Errat Demonstratum in reference to your dropkick post in General Discussion about the ride you led. But you'd only tell me there were no new riders!

OK, I'm not sure if you're being serious or not, but just in case you are, I'd like to clarify something here. Yes, there was a new rider with that ride (as I've since explained in subsequent posts in the dropkick thread). However, the situation was that she telephoned me about three nights before the ride, and I explained that the ride was 80km, that there were a few hills involved, so she was informed about what was going on.

I didn't actually "drop" anyone, I just missed a turn. There were other experienced riders from our group who didn't miss the turn. The new rider followed me, so as a consequence, I stayed with her until I found we found our way back to Kingscliff to meet up with the others.

If you weren't being serious, disregard everything I just said!

P.S. I, for one, hope you stay at the forums. I value your opinions and think they have added something to the site. However, I do think that everyone involved in what's gone on in this thread should take a few moments to calm down before continuing this discussion any further.

Chris- I'm already pretty calm. I haven't lost my mind quite yet.... :D

In an attempt to make this discussion more big picture and less personal let me state what I think is going on here and this is geared more to the US market others may be the same I just don't know for sure .Bike touring has never been a growth market with the possible exception of a brief period in the mid80's however I am hearing in the last year or two the numbers of tourers are down significantly even from prior year levels.It appears as a result bike touring companies in a attempt to broaden the market are taking inexperienced tourers or riders they would not have considered in the past.I recall another poster earlier this year posting about "Hell Week" in Texas where the moto was"no wimps or whiners allowed".Well apparently now they are encouraging a broader riding base this year and the poster called them about her concerns being a slower rider and recieved encouragement to participate.
The problem appears to be if they just keep their existing format geared to more experieced tourers they are going to run into these kinds of problems accepting riders with no road/touring experience and thus they should well be exspected.In fact I would think if these types of riders are now being targeted that there would be an ethical if not legal obligation on the company to train/educate /instruct these types of riders as to proper touring/road riding rather than just set them loose on their own.Perhaps this additional instruction/training could even be a new profit center for touring companies.

There was more content to this originally because several additional posts disappeared in the meltdown that were quite relevant, one from Gojohnnygo in particular. Anyway...

There are two sides to this, and a lot we don't know, including the actual conversations between Lorraine and the business and how things really did transpire on the road.

There are two points of view on this. I'm obviously in the minority in trying to put a countervailing viewpoint, and that evidently makes me wrong.

I'll therefore move on. I apologise if I have caused offence to anyone (and particularly Lorraine), and I promise I won't ever consider putting a counterbalancing viewpoint on customer relations ever again on BFs. After all, the customer is always right (although there are....... oh, forget it).

And to redress a couple of other issues emanating out of this thread:

Chris, I *was* half serious in the context of the discussion and the timing of your experience with your club ride. Thank you for your PS... it has changed my mind.

I need to say to RWTD: You were absolutely correct in that you did offer the suggestion to Lorraine to work up to road riding. I apologise to you particularly for overlooking your views in my original posting.

This is my last post on the thread.

"THE MISSING POST"

:( I feel partly responsible for this big mess!It was I that got Lorraine excited about her trip to Vermont.You can find it here> http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28347

I'm Sorry Lorraine that you had such a rotten time.

"BAD Gojohnnygo BAD"