"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Power meter - train, race or both?

I'm wondering how many of you power-meter types have your systems set up on a training bike rather than your race bike(s)?

I have a PT SL laced to a Reynolds Alta race. I bought multiple sensor kits so I can swap the PT wheel between bikes. I basically train and race with the thing. Getting day to day info back from the PT is key. I also like racing with it to see what was going on before during and after critical points in the race. It gives me a more quantitative idea of what I need to work on.

I have a PT SL laced to a Reynolds Alta race. I bought multiple sensor kits so I can swap the PT wheel between bikes. I basically train and race with the thing. Getting day to day info back from the PT is key. I also like racing with it to see what was going on before during and after critical points in the race. It gives me a more quantitative idea of what I need to work on.

That extra 250 g. in the hub has to hurt... ?

I'll use my PT wheel for training and some racing. For higher priority races I've gone to just using race wheels. I don't know if it's all in my head or what, but I do feel like the bike is a little quicker when I put the Fulcrum 1's on there.

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That extra 250 g. in the hub has to hurt... ?
In my case, it doesn't hurt nearly as much as simply sucking and being out of shape. I'm happy to take the "penalty" so I can see if the training is actually doing anything or not (at least by the power numbers...if I ever get to the point of losing a podium spot and I can attribute it directly to the weight, I'll consider losing the PT, but so far there's no danger of that happening anytime soon).

I'm wondering how many of you power-meter types have your systems set up on a training bike rather than your race bike(s)?
I only have one bike so, don't have to make that choice. If I did have multiple bikes I would move it around.

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In my case, it doesn't hurt nearly as much as simply sucking and being out of shape. I'm happy to take the "penalty" so I can see if the training is actually doing anything or not (at least by the power numbers...if I ever get to the point of losing a podium spot and I can attribute it directly to the weight, I'll consider losing the PT, but so far there's no danger of that happening anytime soon).

I hear you man. That's how I feel about it. I need to lighten the engine a bit so the 250g from the hub isn't a huge deal.

You could take a big dump and compensate for 1/4th of a pound! LOL!

Mine is on my commuter, which is also my race bike. :p Power meter - train, race and commute (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=308759)

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I went to a srm and it is much heavier than the cranks I had before but the bike still comes in at 6.8 in race trim so I dont mind the weight.

training only. i've found that having the power numbers in front of me is a distraction during a race. so i now race on another set of wheels

training only. i've found that having the power numbers in front of me is a distraction during a race. so i now race on another set of wheels
You could set the display to max power, tape over it, or just not look.

^^^ I've set it to max power and covered it with tape, but still see myself looking down at it--so finally I just took it off.

Another interesting thing is that I've not gotten anything from my race data that has helped all that much. I'll freely admit that I'm still a power training newbie, but I have yet to set a new max power in a race or see something in the power graphs that looked like it was particularly unusual. Again, though, I'm not savvy with analyzing the race data yet.

Another interesting thing is that I've not gotten anything from my race data that has helped all that much. I'll freely admit that I'm still a power training newbie, but I have yet to set a new max power in a race ...
I'd say that's pretty interesting right there. Unless you're winning the race, then you should be putting out maximum effort at least once during the race (and falling short of what's needed). If these max efforts are less than you're capable of in training, you might want to understand why. I'd also want to understand exactly why I fell short of the effort needed at these critical points.

I'd say that's pretty interesting right there. Unless you're winning the race, then you should be putting out maximum effort at least once during the race (and falling short of what's needed). If these max efforts are less than you're capable of in training, you might want to understand why. I'd also want to understand exactly why I fell short of the effort needed at these critical points.

Well, my personal explanation is that I'm not going to be able to whip out my peak sprint power or my 1-minute power at the end of a 1-hour race the way I can when my only goal is to do sprints, 1-minute intervals, etc.

This is most likely a result of a weak base (or at least that's my guess) and a need for a bit more anaerobic endurance, both of which I'm working on anyway.

Well, my personal explanation is that I'm not going to be able to whip out my peak sprint power or my 1-minute power at the end of a 1-hour race the way I can when my only goal is to do sprints, 1-minute intervals, etc.
But what about all the other points on the mean maximal power curve? Somewhere there should be points from races.

But what about all the other points on the mean maximal power curve? Somewhere there should be points from races.

I think there might be some, and I did have one 1-hour race with a normalized power of 317W, but none of the big ones (5sec, 1min, 5min) have been set in a race. I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that there just aren't any 5-minute climbs around here (in races, at least).

ive found the numbers from races helpful. ive been able to use the numbers to set target power ranges in training. its also been helpful in letting me relive the race.

I use an SRM and it records everything. I'm hooked on the data. Have recorded one race and several "group" rides. If you can interpret the data correctly you can get very specific about your training. If that is important to you.:rolleyes:

I'm banking on the fact that in steady state races (time trials), seeing my real time power will help me keep my power within a tight window, especially early on.

In a road race, you can drop your power by a substantial margin and maintain speed by drafting. Not so in an ITT.

My setup is a PT SL laced to a Zipp 404 clincher rim. I usually race with it because data from races are the most valuable data. But I sometimes race on Zipp 303 tubulars, which make the whole wheel weight about 1 1/2 lbs lighter, which is enough to feel climibing and accelerating out of turns.

I'm banking on the fact that in steady state races (time trials), seeing my real time power will help me keep my power within a tight window, especially early on.

In a road race, you can drop your power by a substantial margin and maintain speed by drafting. Not so in an ITT.

now THIS i'll agree with. i can tape over the computer or put useless data on it while i'm riding a road race, but why? if i'm gonna do that, why not just run another set of wheels? i broke out of the pack on saturday in the sprint but couldn't run the first two guys down. so i know that my sprint workouts aren't good enough to get me to first. i don't need a number to tell me that; real life just told me my sprint work isn't getting it done. different story in a TT. i'd LOVE to have the PowerCrap during a TT, but my TT bike wheels are smaller, so the wheels won't work.

My setup is a PT SL laced to a Zipp 404 clincher rim. I usually race with it because data from races are the most valuable data. But I sometimes race on Zipp 303 tubulars, which make the whole wheel weight about 1 1/2 lbs lighter, which is enough to feel climibing and accelerating out of turns.

now, wait a minute. you just said race data is the most valuable data. but you'll give it up for a lighter wheel. i guess it's not that valuable

i broke out of the pack on saturday in the sprint but couldn't run the first two guys down. so i know that my sprint workouts aren't good enough to get me to first.
You know or you think? How can you be sure your final sprint power wasn't limited by lack of aerobic power which prevented you from expressing your full maximum power? Similarly, how do you evaluate the contribution of anaerobic power to sucess or failure in that final kick? Without a power meter all you have is the final result, you're just guessing the cause. Improved NP power might be the last thing you need to work on.

I use an SRM Dura Ace, so it's not too bad to move it between my TT bike and Road/Crit bike. Soo, I ride it 100% of the time. Also, having an SRM over a PT allows me to run it with my training wheels, Carbones, or even the disc on my TT bike.

I don't know why people don't like looking at it during a race. I ignore it 99% of the time, but there's that occasion where it's helpful -- bridging, attacking, etc, it's nice to know your CP values and know how to pace it. Even then I don't use it a lot, but it's still nice to know what's going on with you.

....and for those arguing that you won't race with it because of weight, weight is NOT that important. 1.5 lbs is NOTHING.

....and for those arguing that you won't race with it because of weight, weight is NOT that important. 1.5 lbs is NOTHING.

It is when you have to spin it.

I use an SRM Dura Ace, so it's not too bad to move it between my TT bike and Road/Crit bike. Soo, I ride it 100% of the time. Also, having an SRM over a PT allows me to run it with my training wheels, Carbones, or even the disc on my TT bike.

I don't know why people don't like looking at it during a race. I ignore it 99% of the time, but there's that occasion where it's helpful -- bridging, attacking, etc, it's nice to know your CP values and know how to pace it. Even then I don't use it a lot, but it's still nice to know what's going on with you.

i look at mine every now and then and it never freaks me out.

now THIS i'll agree with. i can tape over the computer or put useless data on it while i'm riding a road race, but why? if i'm gonna do that, why not just run another set of wheels? i broke out of the pack on saturday in the sprint but couldn't run the first two guys down. so i know that my sprint workouts aren't good enough to get me to first. i don't need a number to tell me that; real life just told me my sprint work isn't getting it done. different story in a TT. i'd LOVE to have the PowerCrap during a TT, but my TT bike wheels are smaller, so the wheels won't work.

I respect those that can use real-time power data in a road race effectively but it seems to me that road race power is a lot more complex, even for relatively steady state but temporary efforts at increased power.

Training is equally complex. Why is my resting heart rate 10 points high or why is my 10 mile power down? Was it the baby waking me up at 4:00am? Was it the four days of stress at work? Has my training load been too much? Was I just not putting out effort? Was that early spike to blame? I prefer trainer data to just cut down on some of the variables. I'm not knocking people who can use the data.

It is when you have to spin it.

Not really. The whole momentum thing plays in your favor.

The cheapest Ksyriums (Equipe -- $300) take less wattage to spin than the SL's because they have a more aero rim.

i can only hope that one day i will be good enough to worry about the added weight of the powertap hub

My 30mm semi-aero PT wheels weigh about 1500 grams so I really don't feel like it's costing me all that much to race with them. I'm not willing to go tubular yet, so it's not like I'm going to save a whole bunch by going with race-only wheels.

On Sunday, the evening before the Assault on Mount Mitchell, I was out in the motel parking lot lubricating my chain and doing some last minute checks to make sure the bike was good for the next morning's ride. A group of cyclists walked by and asked me for some advice about staying with the lead pack (to which I replied that I only had second-hand information but I gave them whatever information I knew). Anyway, one guy says to the other guy half under his breath: "that PowerTap is going to cost that guy about 50 grams of weight tomorrow which is significant." I reached over and grabbed one of my water bottles out if its holster, squirted a little bit of water on the ground and said, "Ok, now we're even."

So it won't surprise you that I use the power meter during races. I don't ever look at it to judge wattage or speed (I guess if I got in a breakaway I might) so during the race it's essentially only an odometer. After the race, however, I've found it extremely useful to determine what went right and what went wrong. I can give specific details if people are interested, but I personally I have found it to be very helpful.

At Mount Mitchell on Monday (NOT A RACE), faced with a 2-hour climb at the end of what would be a nearly 6-hour ride, I used the power meter to help mete out the effort. It helped me go easier at the beginning of the climb when my enthusiasm might have otherwise convinced me to go harder than I could really sustain for that long, and harder at the end of the climb when my mind was trying to convince me to ease up despite having a wattage output that was less than I knew I could sustain.

--Steve

^^^ I have no idea if it's the stiffness of the wheel, weight, placebo, or a combination of all three, but switching out the PT wheel for a race wheel makes me feel faster, and mindset is important...

You know or you think? How can you be sure your final sprint power wasn't limited by lack of aerobic power which prevented you from expressing your full maximum power? Similarly, how do you evaluate the contribution of anaerobic power to sucess or failure in that final kick? Without a power meter all you have is the final result, you're just guessing the cause. Improved NP power might be the last thing you need to work on.

I followed you up until "without a power meter"...
One can still measure relative aerobic fitness without a power meter, and having a power meter wouldn't seem to make that data any more concrete.

I reached over and grabbed one of my water bottles out if its holster, squirted a little bit of water on the ground and said, "Ok, now we're even."

(snip)

After the race, however, I've found it extremely useful to determine what went right and what went wrong.


Exactly.

^^^ I have no idea if it's the stiffness of the wheel, weight, placebo, or a combination of all three, but switching out the PT wheel for a race wheel makes me feel faster, and mindset is important...

Haha... Whatever works for you. All of my wheels are Mavics (sponsorship), and they all test extremely well on stiffness tests. I've ridden some custom wheelsets, as well as various other brand wheelsets...

I really think it's the stiffness.

Haha... Whatever works for you. All of my wheels are Mavics (sponsorship), and they all test extremely well on stiffness tests. I've ridden some custom wheelsets, as well as various other brand wheelsets...

I really think it's the stiffness.

Hey man, if the Kool-Aid's good I'm gonna keep on drinkin' it. :D

:) Go for it!

I've spent a lot of time trying different combinations and reading everything about bike performance I can get my hands on, so I just like to share what i've learned I guess!

I followed you up until "without a power meter"...
One can still measure relative aerobic fitness without a power meter, and having a power meter wouldn't seem to make that data any more concrete.
So tell us, how did you rule out aerobic and anaerobic fitness as the cause of you inability to catch the leaders at the race?

So tell us, how did you rule out aerobic and anaerobic fitness as the cause of you inability to catch the leaders at the race?

Power meters, much as they are awesome and the best investment you can make in cycling (except maybe a coach) won't tell you anything about your aerobic/anaerobic fitness. The only way (that I know of) to do that is to do some lab testing, and THEN you can pair those numbers to a PM..

:) Go for it!

I've spent a lot of time trying different combinations and reading everything about bike performance I can get my hands on, so I just like to share what i've learned I guess!

Don't get me wrong, if I had a lot more money my new 404's would have a PT SL hub, but for now it's a choice between some light, fast race wheels and the powertap. I'm only 1 promotion away from fixing that. :D

Haha.... I still think you're better off just going the SRM route at that point rather than having two PT's. Zipps are very nice, but too mushy for my likes :(.

^^^ I have no idea if it's the stiffness of the wheel, weight, placebo, or a combination of all three, but switching out the PT wheel for a race wheel makes me feel faster, and mindset is important...

I'm not going to argue with that. I have no doubt that a race wheelset would perform better than the standard bomb-proof DT 1.1 (or whatever it's called) that most people use as their PT training wheel. Having a wheel I felt I could race with was one of the reasons I went with a custom build.

My concern with a race-only wheel is sort of a lesser version of my concern with using a race-only bike: I don't want to introduce anything into my race-day bike handling that I'm not used to dealing with on a regular basis. If I were to have two sets of wheels I'd want to make sure they both had the same tires.

But maybe now I'm the one being superstitious!!

--Steve

Power meters, much as they are awesome and the best investment you can make in cycling (except maybe a coach) won't tell you anything about your aerobic/anaerobic fitness. The only way (that I know of) to do that is to do some lab testing, and THEN you can pair those numbers to a PM..
Briefly, following Monod critical power paradigm perform a few (at least 2 maybe as many as 4-5) maximal effort tests to get AWC and critical power. That will tell you a lot about aerobic/anaerobic fitness. Use that data along with power profiling chart will give general areas to work on. To refine further, analyze race data. Look at race file, 1) determine if leadup to sprint was greater than CP, 2) determine if AWC used up and when. If not 1) and not 2) then work on NP. If 1) and not 2) work on aerobic fitness, If 1) and AWC used up before lead up to sprint, work on anaerobic fitness. if 1) and AWC used up during sprint or lead up, can't be sure what to work on.

True, but that just gives you CP areas to train to... It doesn't necessarily relate to a fitness level. My V02 max is probably a lot lower than some people, but I can still push more power than a lof of them.

At Mount Mitchell on Monday (NOT A RACE), faced with a 2-hour climb at the end of what would be a nearly 6-hour ride, I used the power meter to help mete out the effort. It helped me go easier at the beginning of the climb when my enthusiasm might have otherwise convinced me to go harder than I could really sustain for that long, and harder at the end of the climb when my mind was trying to convince me to ease up despite having a wattage output that was less than I knew I could sustain.

--Steve

Won't a HRM tell you the same?

True, but that just gives you CP areas to train to...
There is only one CP.

Originally Posted by DrPete: Another interesting thing is that I've not gotten anything from my race data that has helped all that much. I'll freely admit that I'm still a power training newbie, but I have yet to set a new max power in a race ...



I'd say that's pretty interesting right there. Unless you're winning the race, then you should be putting out maximum effort at least once during the race (and falling short of what's needed). If these max efforts are less than you're capable of in training, you might want to understand why. I'd also want to understand exactly why I fell short of the effort needed at these critical points.

...and if those max efforts are similar to what i've seen in training, then that tells me that my sprint workouts aren't getting it done. i've already confirmed that. i've seen that situation in races. and having the numbers in front of me is distracting. so i no longer use it. hey, do what works for you. i know what works for me

...and if those max efforts are similar to what i've seen in training, then that tells me that my sprint workouts aren't getting it done. i've already confirmed that.
I don't see how you reach this conclusion. Even if you're reaching maximum power for all durations, that doesn't indicate that lack of power in the final sprint is a result of low NP power. As outlined above, the lack of sprint power might be the result of many things other than maximal NP.

But aside from that, how do you know the max efforts in a race are the same as in workouts without the data from a power meter? What you're saying is you don't need a power meter because you already know the what the data will turn out to be. Of course, without data to contradict you, you'll always be right.

Won't a HRM tell you the same?

If you're gonna use an HRM during a race you might as well use a power meter.

--Steve