Ok I am looking for supplement suggestions. I seem to be burning out and am going to take a break but I am looking for suggestions for ride recovery. Here are some symptoms as to why I am taking a break
1 - first symtpon I noticed was aches and pains in my knees, the side of calf (not my shin but right beside) and a deep ache in my quads. I also have a deep ache in my hips. Stretching cleared up most of the symptoms early on but I think I was just extending my burn out period.
2 - no concentration which resulted in a lack of confidence which I CAN'T suffer from with my riding or I could slide down the side of a cliff ;)
3 - Energy is WAY down. I can't seem to sleep more than 6 hours max and I am beat all the time. I do realize this is related to my overtraining.
I am taking a week break now, will ride a couple of week and then I am going on vacation for 10 days where I probably won't even see a bike let alone a mountain (oh I hate leaving the mountains). So rest wont be an issue but when Istart back up I tend to enjoy pushing myself and riding hard so in essence I am looking for suggestions to extend my riding for longer periods before overtraining kicks in. Just looking for suggestions as mountain biking really seem to attack the joints and leg muscles far more than my gym rat days and this type of overtraining is new to me.
Here is something that was going in my head
1 - I am changing my diet slightly to allow for more carbs. Nothing to extreme but just to see if it will help energy. If I find I am having glucose/ gaining fat problems I will probably go back to my regular diet.
2 - Something for the joints and muscle ache. Glucosamine sulfate? This is an area of supplementation I have never payed much attention to as I never had joint problems.
3 - focus/concentration. Not too worried about this as I know when the overtraining goes away my concentration will be back up.
Any suggestions will be fully accepted (except the 'don't take supplements group') and please provide links if you can (I can do a search if need be) but I don't just take supplements with a blind eye ;)
Thanx ahead of time
The BikeForums Team
-adv-
This is an archived thread, you can find the full version of this thread, with images, links and more content here.
For recovery/overtraining i tend to tighten up my diet and insure I am getting enough of all the Vit&mins in addition to the macronutrients.If you are going to up the carbs I wold add in some fruits and vegies in this regard(I know you have said this is a problem area for you in the past).For joint concerns you may want to add in some fats concentrating on unsaturated such as nuts and seeds.For supplements the glucosomine I take in such situations as well as a good multi with high levels of the B vitimins and supplemental fish oil as well for help with inflamation etc. as well.Personally I will also take some supplemental magnesium as well as most multis are low on cal/mag(due to their bulk)and I get plenty of calcium through supplemental whey protein.Zinc and other minerals are important but I get most of these through a high potentcy multi.
Maelstrom
Hmmm...ok that sounds good. Will have to work on the nuts seeds idea as I tend not to like them (texture bleh ;))
Ok sounds like what I had planned will do what I was looking for. I also intend to hit the gym again to start building up bone strength. Thanx for the help RWTD :)...
FOG
If you are having pains inone side or the other of your legs you may have some imabalance in your pedailing, whih might be fied by moving the cleat around, with an expert's help, or you might be someone who needs orthotics, in which case you should see a sports medicine specialist. I don't know anyone who specializes in cycling orthotics, although I know a lot of folks doing footbeds for skiers.
Maelstrom
Fog...no cleat involved. With the riding I do my feet have to move a lot for balance and to 'throw' the bike around. :)...
The footbeds is a good idea though, thanx :)
RiPHRaPH
personally i think that you need to softpedal a bit more. whatever gear you are used to riding on your regular route, lighten it by one gear. ..spin more. that may take care of the 'beat up' feeling you are experiencing with your quads and hips. and when your body feels beat up like that then your mental game suffers also. after all these years i am still experimenting with which gears work right for me on different days. go easy on your easy days and hard on your hard days. most people go too hard on their easy days and too easy on their hard days. people in the know will tell you that they make just as much progress with their training off the bike as on it. rest. rest easy.
your burn out is your whole life's work, not just the work done on your bike. regroup on vacation and start in again slowly. the supplements will only 'prolong' the burnout period i'm afraid.
i realize that you are looking for supplement ideas. but i don't believe that you need carbs. i'd go with more protein and hike up the fluid intake.
be a tourist for a while. remember why you love biking. then only go hard once in a while.
oxologic
Did you see the thread : http://wwww.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30063
It is about adaptogens, something that helps reduce overtraining and helps your body respond and recover faster from exercise. Exercise lightly if your overtraining is not severe, might take up to 3 weeks in the least. If it is very severe, it might even take months. Do not start to exercise hard the moment you feel better, it is just a temporary feeling and it is not supposed to give you the go-ahead. Rest for a week more at least and slowly build back up. Don't expect to start where you left off, you will only burn out another time.
Richard Cranium
Asking strangers on the internet for "real" training advice is like asking new York Cabbies for directions to the airport.........
You don't really know what I think do you? You pathetic little wimp,,, oh wait a second that was for someone else.....
Get a grip on your training status by reducing intensity. Slow way down for a couple of days and do everything slowly. See how much work you can do without "hurting"..... when you "feel" rested, and can enjoy your workout, you are ready for more.....
Dazza
Glucosamine Sulphate helped me a lot when i had bad knees (intense pain behind kneecap, when bending down, or climbing stairs, or i would have to stretch every 15minutes during a car journey) now they hurt a lot less, but i was also training at the gym, high reps on low weights, to beef up the muscle around the kneecap.
Hope you get sorted my man, id advise going to the phisio, or the doc.
Maelstrom
Wow...I forgot about this thread. A little update for everyone I suppose. I have taken a full week off. I do feel a lot better and have started to play more. Part of the boredom was definately the monotony of my xc riding. I was getting into a rut without any of the fun I enjoy of dh or trials or djing. So I have started back with doing those things which arent as physically demanding as often but improve riding greatly.
Riphraph you are right in saying it is my whole life work. I am excited about my 3 week vacation coming up...I can't wait to do nothing.
Oxologic - no I didn't see that thread. Thank you.
Richard - just looking for opinions. I am pretty good at analyzing my own situation. But sometimes other people have tidbits that can be useful :)
Dazza - thanx man. I have started using this plus a multi vitamen. Things definately seem more loose on me now. Can't wait to see long term affects. It even seems to be helping my shoulder (old football injury) but at this stage it is probably placebo...
urbanking
Look into creatine monohydrate. I loads you with energy. Also increases muslce strength and endurance, and alows your stimulated muslces to re stimulate faster. It has also been proven to help with lactid acid.
Guest
Hey Maelstrom-
The great crash of '03 deleted a post I'd just finished too... it was long and drawn out (as usual), so I never reposted. However, I thought I'd direct you towards one of my older posts about overtraining, since it seems you have some delayed onset muscle soreness problems (DOMS) too:
Overtraining has something to do with DOMS, but it ranges beyond that- overtraining is simply not allowing the body enough time to recover from strenuous activity. Overtraining messes with your hormonal levels, releases free radicals into the bloodstream, increases the stress hormones into the body by overstimulating the adrenal cortex, and can cause symptoms of depression, and even sickness in some cases. You'll often feel a run down feeling, accompanied by some other feelings of sickness. When I'm at my most overtrained, I'm feeling like I want to vomit, I feel like I need to sleep all the time, and I am sore and achy. The symptoms vary with different people, but you will experience some of these symptoms. Overtraining can be experienced for a short time if you catch it early, but if you're pushing yourself constantly, the symptoms will intensify until your body makes you slow down, and that's no fun. We all know better- don't overtrain!
I've felt some of that deep quad soreness from time to time, and sleeplessness and fatigue from my overtraining effects- time off would be perfect for you, as you're doing right now.
I had a bunch of supplements I'd put together from old notes. I'll try to recreate that list, but before you start taking any supplements, you'll want to see your primary physician and make sure that if you're on medication for anything that it doesn't interact with supplements. I think the biggest problem with supplements is that people don't understand or know how supplements can react when taken with other supplements, or how supplements react with your medication when taken with your medication. Better yet, see a pharmacist- they sometimes know more than the doctors about what will react with what. That's how I first learned that reactions can sometimes happen, and they sometimes can be pretty counterproductive to your health... so be careful when taking supplements of any kind- regardless of whether or not you're on medication.
I'll dig through my notes and put together a supplement list you can take to the pharmacist or doctor.
Koffee
Maelstrom
Originally posted by urbanking
Look into creatine monohydrate. I loads you with energy. Also increases muslce strength and endurance, and alows your stimulated muslces to re stimulate faster. It has also been proven to help with lactid acid.
Creatine doesn't work in my body. Causes water retension and no increase in muscle at all. I was one of those people that creatine was more evil than helpful during my bodybuilding days :) Thankx though.
Maelstrom
Originally posted by Koffee Brown
I had a bunch of supplements I'd put together from old notes. I'll try to recreate that list, but before you start taking any supplements, you'll want to see your primary physician and make sure that if you're on medication for anything that it doesn't interact with supplements. I think the biggest problem with supplements is that people don't understand or know how supplements can react when taken with other supplements, or how supplements react with your medication when taken with your medication. Better yet, see a pharmacist- they sometimes know more than the doctors about what will react with what. That's how I first learned that reactions can sometimes happen, and they sometimes can be pretty counterproductive to your health... so be careful when taking supplements of any kind- regardless of whether or not you're on medication.
I'll dig through my notes and put together a supplement list you can take to the pharmacist or doctor.
Koffee
I have a signifigant amount of knowledge about most supplementation except joint supplements as I have never taken them. Before I take anything I will sure to research it, thanx for the warning. I am currently on no medication. :)
Thanx koffee..
Guest
Here are your websites that you can refer to for the vitamins and minerals necessary in your diet:
http://www.fatfreekitchen.com/vitamins.html - also gives the warnings about what happens if you overdose on these vitamins and minerals
http://www.nutrition.org.uk/information/energynutrients.html
http://www.anorectic-drugs.com/dris.html
Physical exercise can cause tissue damage and tissue breakdown- we can minimize the after effects by ingesting vitamins E and C, and by ingesting amino acids (meats and proteins). Consider that when sweating, the body's minerals and other nutrients, such as water, Vitamin B1, sodium, potassium, magnesium, and chloride are lost in the sweating process.
In order to prevent the fatigue effects, muscle cramping and other physiological damage, minerals need to be replaced after exercise. The major minerals, one by one (with some recommended amounts to take according to my notes from my lectures attended at conferences):
Potassium: important for nerve conduction and muscle and heart function, and also helps prevent muscle spasms. Potassium deficiency can cause fatigue and muscle weakness. It also helps sodium with maintaining water balance. It is recommended to injest 100- 200 mg after exercise (per day, not per session), but also eat food high in potassium. Foods recommended for potassium: grains, peas, nuts, bananas, seeds, beans, and whole grains.
Calcium: Helps nerve conductivity, supports muscle contraction and relaxation, cellular and bone strrength, and in the delivery of oxygen to the muscles. It also helps prevent stress and anxiety. It is needed for blood clotting, and helps in maintaining regular heartbeat, and may have a role in regulating cholesterol levels. Of course, it helps prevent bone loss. Calcium can be taken at night with magnesium to induce calmness and induce a more restful sleep, or take calcium just after exercise. Recommended doseage is 600- 1000 mg. per day (split into 2 different ingestions, so for instance- 500 mg after exercise, then 500 more mg at bedtime= 1000 mg total per day). Foods recommended for calcium: dairy (milk, cheeses), tofu, blackstrap molasses, salmon (with bones), green leafy veggies, and nuts and seeds.
Magnesium: Reguired for the production of ATP, maintenance of energy, nerve conduction, and muscular contraction and relaxation. A magnesium deficiency can result in problematic chronic fatigue problems. It is recommended to take 400- 600 mg with the calcium- just after exercise or at night before bedtime. Magnesium can be found naturally in: gren leafy veggies, beans and peas, raw nuts and seeds, avocado, dried figs, grains, raisins, millet, and tofu.
Iron: Required for oxygen transport in the blood. It maintains the hemoglobin in the blood cells to carry the oxygen. Iron is also used by part of the muscle protein called myoglobin, which is involved with muscle relaxation and contraction. With a lack of oxygen, endurance and energy in an individual is pretty low, and severe iron deficiency can result in chronic fatigue, or a washed out feeling. It is recommended for men to take 8mg of iron (women need more depending on a number of physiological factors). Iron can be found in liver, seeds and nuts, green leafy veggies, peas, and beans. Additionally, it was recommended that iron be consumed with at least 75 mg of vitamin C to absorb it properly.
Zinc: Acts to reduce fatigue by enhancing the immune system, and may trigger the reproduction of lymphocytes, and improves muscle strength and endurance. It works with several of the body's enzymes with digestion and metabolism, ,and helps (in males) with normal prostate functioning. Zinc also helps tissue repair and growth. It's recommended to take 15 mg of zinc. Zinc can be found in wheat germ, pumpkin seeds, high protein foods, wheat bran, and whole grains.
Bioflavinoids: Are antioxidants that help protect against cell damage by free radicals (see the post on DOMS I referred you to). Their anti-inflammatory properties help prevent the production and release of histimines and leukotrienes (cells released in the immune reaction), and they may help protect us from viral infections. Bioflavinoids also help to strengthen capillary cell walls. The recommended dose for men is 800 mg (older women, up to 2000 mg can be consumed). Bioflavinoids are found in fruits, especially oranges, cherries, blackberries, huckleberries, grapefruits, and grape skins.
Iodine: Used with the amino acid tyrosine for producing the thyroid homone called thyroxin. Low levels of iodine can cause excessive fatigue, slowed metabolism, increased weight gain, and constipation. We only need a small amount of iodine- about 150 micrograms. Iodine can be found in garlic, fish, shellfish, and sea veggies such as kepl and dulse.
Essential Fatty Acids: They consist of the linoleic acid (Omega-6) and linolenic acid (Omega-3), which cannot be produced by the body at all, so they must be ingested from food or supplements. These fatty acids comprise the membrane structure of all the body's cells. They are also required for the normal development and function of the brain, inner ear, eyes, adrenal glands, and reporductive tract. They also help regulate blood pressure and platelet thickness, decrease inflammation, and increase immune function. For women, they are also important for preventing some of the symptoms of menopause and aging, as well as preventing yeast infections and prevent fatigue.
No one gave any particular amounts that must be injested for essential fatty acids, except to say that about four teaspoons per day of essential oils is optimal, although if one is suffering from chronic fatigue, an additional one to two teaspoons of oil may be needed. If you develop diarrhea, it is recommended that you cut back to one teaspoon per day. The best sources of essential fatty acids (linoleic and linolenic) are flax seeds and pumpkin seeds. They should be used fresh and uncooked, and stored in dark containers in the refrigerator until used. They should never be cooked, since cooking them results in a breakdown of some of the chemical properties. Flax seed oil is extremely igh in linoleic and linolenic acids. Linolenic acid is also found in fish oils, especially fish found in cold water, high fat fish like salmon, tuna, eel, and mackerel. Linoleic acid is found in seeds and seed oils, such as safflower oil, corn oil, sesame oil, wheat germ oil, and sunflower oil. To increase the effects of these fatty acids, they should be taken along with vitamin E.
This is pretty much everything from my notes. I'll do another post where they listed vitamins and minerals and which food sources provide those vitamins and minerals.
Maelstrom
Hmmm...I will look in my listing from way back as well...I seem to recall a similar listing for all minerals and vitamens just not with that particular detail. Thank you for the help Koffee I will take a closer look at basic supplementation and diet to see where I can further help my burnout.
Thanx everyone.
RWTD
One further note on the EFA's.The proper ratio of omega 6/omega3 is important as well .The recommended ratio is 2/1 or less and it is though we evolved on a 1/1 ratio while our diet today is more like 10-20/1 based on high intake of polyunsaturated (omega 6)oils and depletion of omega3 from many traditional sources through modern farming techniques.An inbalance (ie excess omega6)promotes inflammation and other chronic complications.Seeds,beans and walnuts are all good sources of omega3 but these need to be enzyimatically converted to EPA the necessary fatty acid .Fish oil contains EPA as well as DHA(enhances brain function)so if you are taking a few grams to balance out EFA's there is no concerns of enzyme limits or competition to convert to EPA.As fish is high in mercury I take a fish oil supplement to avoid this concern and I include walnuts/pumpkin seeds/soy/flax in my diet as well.
Guest
Can you go into a bit more of an explanation of what EPA and DHA are and how they also contribute to the discussion on nutrition? I'm not too familiar with these terms, so I'm not sure of how it works into the essential fatty acids discussion- also a short disucssion on the enzymatic conversion of omega 3s to this EPA would be nice...thanks.
Koffee
RWTD
EPA,DHA and ALA are all omega 3 fatty acids .The first two are found in marine sources and the last in plant sources.ALA is enzymatically converted to EPA and DHA then EPA is converted to hormone like compounds called eicosanoids.Omega 6 fatty acids likewise go through various steps to form opposing eicosanoids competing for the same enzymes in doing so and other factors such as aging,high cholesterol or trans fatty acid intake or lack of co-factors can limit the necessary enzyme activity for ALA conversion aswell.The omega 6 and omega 3 pathway endproducts exert opposing physiological functions thus the need for balance in the case relavent to this thread to prevent inflammation through intake of EPA or ALA which then is converted to EPA.DHA plays a very important role in brain integrity.This is further complicated by the fact that within the omega 6's DGLA and AA need to be balanced for optimal eicosanoid function and current diets high in carbohydrates elevating insulin levels result in an excess of AA with negative health consequences.If ALA instead of EPA is consumed for omega 3 balance this through enzyme competion with DGLA further worsen the omega 6 deficit of DGLA to AA.So controlling insulin levels and supplementing with EPA(and DHA and GLA within the omega 6's) rather than relying to heavily on ALA (and LA)seems prudent.This is all currently an area of great interest and research in nutrition because it is being found relevant to a wide range of chronic conditions/diseases.Here are a few links I found through a quick search:
http://www.nutrisana.com/html/omega.html
http://www.oznet.ksu.edu/humannutrition/whatfact.htm
http://www.oznet.ksu.edu/humannutrition/whyfact1.htm
http://www.healthandage.com/html/res/com/ConsSupplements/Omega3FattyAcidscs.html
nathank
as to supplements: the 2 i know of for joints are glucosamine sulfate (already mentioned) and chrondrotin which i think is more often used in arthritis. i've taken both for knee pain but don't know a whole lot about them...
as to your training: well, it's so hard to say as i don't know how often/intense you train and all.
but it sounds like making a CHANGE, taking a break from the bike and taking a vacation should all help.
but most importantly, keep changing your training and find a way to keep it fun - sounds like you're on track here.
Guest
Thanks RWTD. I'm sure that explanation gives a bit of clarification from the abbreviations you had in your earlier post!
Koffee
RWTD
Koffee One further note for those trying to avoid/limit animal products.Marine algae is a good source of EPA and DHA and high quality supplements(though expensive) using this as a source of EPA/DHA are available.In fact fish get their omega 3's through algae in their diet.This is why farmed fish fed a grain based diet may be lacking in omega 3's if not added into their diet in supplemental form.In any event the fatty acid profile of farmed fish like that of farmed meat/dairy products is changed for the worse if the are not allowed access to the algae/grass they historically have relied on in the wild.Also in fairness to the above discussion on excess (omega6 fatty acid) AA a diet too high in grain fed meat/dairy will also contribute to high AA levels relative to DGLA as the animals themselves will have higher than normal levels of AA.
Maelstrom
Thanx guys. I wasn't expecting this much response for a burnout thread. I appreciate it. I have been taking glucosamine sulfate / chondriton for 2 weeks now. I have also ensured more protein with some more carbs than usual. I am also not riding hard keeping my intensity a little high but not going for more than 1 hour. I feel mentally tired as I think I am bored and frustrated with a lack of skill progression (which is in turn causing a lack of confidence). The holiday coming up with a forced 2 week hiatus from my bike as well as 1 week watching the worlds best dhillers and freeriding rip up and down the mountain should get my mindset back on track (maybe ginsing will help).
Thanx again :)
I am glad to see omega fats research has come so far. I was taking those 7 years ago when they first became available. thanks for the specific info RWTD I will have to see if I can afford that supplementation as I am already pushing my budget :)
RWTD
Maelstrom A very inexpensive source of omega3's EPA and DHA is cod liver oil.It is also very high in vitimins A&D so users of this oil to balance EFA's have to be careful not to overdo these vitimins particularly those in sunny climates as sun exposure also creates Vit.D .However as you are in Canada this option may work well for you as those in nothern climates particularly during winter months actually need to guard against vit. D deficits due to lack of sun exposure.Flax seeds are also dirt cheap(source of omega3 ALA) like 99cents/lb and you can grind them into powder in a coffee grinder.
Maelstrom
I never thought to buy the actual flax SEEDS...hmmm coffee...excellent you just gave me some ideas RWTD. :)
Guest
I actually bought a few pounds of the flax seeds in Canada for cheap- a pound of the flax seed went for $1 Canadian! :eek:
I just sprinkle the seeds over a salad, or whatever I eat that needs garnishment. I keep them in my refrigerator in a dark bag, and it works just fine for me!
Maelstrom
My problem is my distaste for seeds and beans. I have never been able to eat them without getting a funny look on my face. I could never be a anti-meat person as I can't stand half of the food required. Now grinding them into a shake or coffee sures sounds interesting, and it would make my coffee healthiesh :)
tsgulf
any comments on Magnesium vs kactic acid buildup???
tsgulf
I mean lactic acid buildup. I was told that liquid magnesium prevents the acumulation of LA
danch
I mean lactic acid buildup. I was told that liquid magnesium prevents the acumulation of LA
according to this article (http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness.php?id=fitness/2004/lactic_frederick) and a few others I've seen lactic acid more a signal of fatigue than a cause. The article also discusses how lactic acid/lactate is used by the body as fuel.