Bikes are Safe because they're Dangerous?

[workingbike]

Perhaps a better way of saying it is "Bikes are dangerous because they're vulnerable"?
This article basically confirms what I have thought for a while now,
http://www.gladwell.com/2004/2004_01_12_a_suv.html
that is, that a significant percentage of SUV drivers buy them for the "perceived" feeling
of safety it gives them. Which is another way of saying they're scared, to often scared
drivers are that way because they're crap drivers. So , now we have numerous crap drivers
out there in vehicles which are more dangerous to others.

Comments?

[maddyfish]

Little vehicles are more deadly, middle and big vehicles are safer.
http://autos.msn.com/advice/CRArt.aspx?contentid=4024763&topart=pickups

[BLIZZ]

I use my SUV to haul my and my freinds and families bikes to races and rides, in comfort and style.
It's not the vehicle......it's the driver.
However some vehicles attract a certain type of driver.
Volvos have a great safety record in part to the fact that safety minded drivers buy Volvos because Volvos have a great safety record.
I haven't noticed SUV drivers being any worse than others. Now Mini Vans, thats a another thing......

[caloso]

Little vehicles are more deadly, middle and big vehicles are safer.
http://autos.msn.com/advice/CRArt.aspx?contentid=4024763&topart=pickups

This is crash data. Factor in the data for avoiding a crash and then you'd have a better idea of what's a safer vehicle.

Personally, I'd prefer my chances in a Boxter driven by an attentive, skilled driver than a Tahoe driven by a distracted, inexperienced driver.

[workingbike]

I like my SUV.
Why? Not being provocative, just an honest question.

All SUVs are not created equal.
Granted, I would much rather be in a Porsche Cayenne that an Impala.
All other things being equal, though............

Some SUVs are safer, even to others, than some cars.
Agreed, see point 2 above.

The issues aren't as cut and dried as people wish they were.
Never said they were, do you think though, that some people who drive SUVs do so because they feel less than confident in their driving ability?

[workingbike]

Little vehicles are more deadly, middle and big vehicles are safer.
http://autos.msn.com/advice/CRArt.aspx?contentid=4024763&topart=pickups
Only true if you are talking about after the accident has occurred. What about avoiding it in the first place? Question, did you read the article I linked to?

[cooker]

I like my SUV.

All SUVs are not created equal.

Some SUVs are safer, even to others, than some cars.

The issues aren't as cut and dried as people wish they were.

What do you drive?

(full disclosure: my wife has a Pontiac Montana minivan which I sometimes drive).

[PaulH]

I drove a semi-SUV once -- a Subaru Forester. I didn't feel particularly safe -- it was so strangely high and tippy-feeling. Kind of like a Volkswagen Bus on stilts. If I had to drive one of those SUVs, I'd go along slowly and carefully. I admit that I am prejudiced against them -- they have redneck, trailer trash associations for me. However, if I needed to carry a huge amount of stuff and needed 4WD, I'd consider owning a SUV. Like any vehicle, they have their limitations and are safe if operated within them.

It all comes down to the old observation that the most dangerous part of any vehicle is the "nut behind the steering wheel."

Paul

[chipcom]

I like my SUV.

All SUVs are not created equal.

Some SUVs are safer, even to others, than some cars.

The issues aren't as cut and dried as people wish they were.

Yes they are, you are just another stinkin cager! :p ;)

[workingbike]

I use my SUV to haul my and my freinds and families bikes to races and rides, in comfort and style.
It's not the vehicle......it's the driver.
However some vehicles attract a certain type of driver.
Volvos have a great safety record in part to the fact that safety minded drivers buy Volvos because Volvos have a great safety record.
I haven't noticed SUV drivers being any worse than others. Now Mini Vans, thats a another thing......
I can agree with some of what you say, but around here, the first snowfall of the season almost always presents me with the sight of an SUV in a ditch. In far greater numbers than regular cars or minivans. And no, thats not because there are more on the road.

[workingbike]

Better gas mileage than the one it replaced, powerful engine with a great torque curve, comfortable, lots of interior room, etc.

Not why you drive that particular SUV, why any SUV?

That's the point. All else isn't equal when ranting about "SUVs," sportscars, bicycles, etc.

Didn't think I was ranting? As a class though, would you agree that SUVs are
less nimble for example than an average family car?

I'm sure there are some folks who think that. Is that a major motivation, or the major motivation for the majority of folks that buy SUVs? I doubt it.

From the type of people I see driving them around here, and the way they drive, I'm not so sure.

[workingbike]

What "type" of people is that? How can you tell that they are less than confident in their driving abilities, by looking at them?
They dither, they make indecisive movements, they seem to take far too long to make maneuvers, generally, they drive in what I would consider to be an incompetent manner.

[JohnBrooking]

Isn't it a matter of degree? So SUV's are bigger and may encourage people to be worse drivers. Isn't it still the case that a careless Jetta driver plowing head-on into a cyclist is still capable of doing a lot of damage?

[makeinu]

That describes their driving, not what they look like.

It describes what they look like when they drive.

[bragi]

I think all cars suck. In urban areas, they're completely unnecessary, and a shocking waste of money. In rural areas, it's a totally different story.

[freemti]

welcome to the human condition

Most of the folks, or rather all the folks, who when asked about their driving choices and habits will almost without fail rate themselves and their choice in vehicle pretty gosh darn good. Its always the other guy (or gal), driving that other SUV, not me and not my SUV

Well, I'm sorry the stats don't lie, somebody is driving all those SUV's into all those accidents. Many, many of which are fatal to themselves never mind the other vehicle involved. Statistically not everyone can be a great driver, chances are pretty good that a % of you, I'm afraid to say, probably are not very good drivers in general and would probably make the exact wrong move (or no move at all) when faced with the milli-second response time decision need in a high speed road accident in particular.

And while we're talking science, lets talk physics, as in Newtons Second & Third Laws. Force is related to mass, the heavier the vehicle the more force involved in a collision, the greater the chance for increased damage and trauma to the human occupants. The resultant forces acted upon another veichle have to obey the Third law again resulting in increased damage. Both of which also account for the flip overs since coupled with a high center of gravity (and just plain bad design) the inclination to flip is greatly increased

No one likes to hear that their particular choice of vehicle is "bad", its normal human behavior to get defensive, try to justify why it is OK in "our" case, I don't cause all those accidents, the gas millage on my SUV is not so bad and besides I use it to take poor orphans to church on Sundays. The fact of the matter is that SUVs have some serious social, environmental, and safety related issues that need a second look. Hopefully we can get past this current phase of SUV buying and in twenty years or so we can look back and ask just what the heck were we thinking?!

[Dchiefransom]

Interesting. So, they assume that we should put ourselves in danger, by swerving out of our lane, when someone else puts their life in danger. We need to train our drivers to stop doing this.

[Dchiefransom]

Not why you drive that particular SUV, why any SUV?



Didn't think I was ranting? As a class though, would you agree that SUVs are
less nimble for example than an average family car?



Nimble? How nimble would the family car be getting over the humps in the Forest Service roads in the Sierras to get back in away from the crowds during hunting season? You can't rent a vehicle and take it off the main roads without voiding the insurance.

[freemti]

Well Pete, I hope your not expecting a thundering endorsement of the SUV concept on a forum dedicated to all things bicycle related and one specific to Advocacy & Safety are you?

I'd also point out that you're using the very defense I spoke of. Your SUV is not a "bad" one, your choices are OK etc... In fairness you might well have the SUV par excellence, the veritable paragon of safety that runs on discarded trans-fats for all I know, but its also probably true that even taking as a fact that your SUV and your driving skills are as good as one could expect, this doesn't help the statistics that prove again and again the safety issues with large SUVs and it doesn't change the basic physics

[freemti]

Well this is the A & S sub-forum - heated opinions are allowed.

BTW, a spiel is way longer than one measly paragraph!

[pluc]

<--- I love my SUV too.


(see avatar)

[makeinu]

The original comment separated the two aspects, what they looked like, and their driving habits.

He answered the latter part, not the former.

No, the original comment didn't say anything about what they looked like. That was you injecting thoughts into other people's comments so you can discredit them.

The aspects addressed by the original comment were the type of people they were and their driving habits, likely separated to cover all bases to make the inherency of the property irrelevant.

[no motor?]

This is crash data. Factor in the data for avoiding a crash and then you'd have a better idea of what's a safer vehicle.

Personally, I'd prefer my chances in a Boxter driven by an attentive, skilled driver than a Tahoe driven by a distracted, inexperienced driver.
+1

[no motor?]

I can agree with some of what you say, but around here, the first snowfall of the season almost always presents me with the sight of an SUV in a ditch. In far greater numbers than regular cars or minivans. And no, thats not because there are more on the road.
Ever see one of it's side or upside down after an accident? There's usually someone standing next to it with this look of "gee, they told me this was supposed to be a safe vehicle" on their face. That high center of gravity needed for all of those rugged off road excursions is a huge liability when they start to lean.

[closetbiker]

Perhaps a better way of saying it is "Bikes are dangerous because they're vulnerable"?
This article basically confirms what I have thought for a while now,
http://www.gladwell.com/2004/2004_01_12_a_suv.html
that is, that a significant percentage of SUV drivers buy them for the "perceived" feeling
of safety it gives them. Which is another way of saying they're scared, to often scared
drivers are that way because they're crap drivers. So , now we have numerous crap drivers
out there in vehicles which are more dangerous to others.

Comments?

Perception is a funny thing and when someone suggests to me, bikes are dangerous because the people riding them are vulnerable, I just mention that in my province just about twice the number of people are struck by motor vehicles walking as riding a bike, but the people walking are killed at a rate of over 10 times that of those on bicycles.

[BLIZZ]

They dither, they make indecisive movements, they seem to take far too long to make maneuvers, generally, they drive in what I would consider to be an incompetent manner.

That describes a lot of drivers in my area.

All vehicles with handicap license plates.
Moms in Mini vans.
Senior citizens.
Younger inexperienced drivers.
Cell phone users.
Morning workers putting on makeup, reading the paper, eating breakfast.
Out of towners, lost looking for Bass Pro or Branson.
Road Ragers mad at all the above.

Come to think about it.......that describes EVERYONE in my area.:eek:

[sbhikes]

We have an SUV and it is very handy for taking people on hiking trips. We could do most of our trips in a regular car, however, so I question how valuable it is most of the time. But there are a few trips we do regularly on poor quality dirt roads so on those days it is nice to have. It's also very comfortable inside.

But the darn thing is really heavy and seems to want to drift around. Because it's so heavy it is hard to slow it down and take turns well. It doesn't handle very well in my opinion. I could see that thing taking out somebody some day just because if you don't pay 100% attention to your driving the darn thing totally ignores all the lines on the street and just rambles all over the place. I have to bite my tongue every time I ride in that thing otherwise I will backseat drive my poor boyfriend to death. But I have driven it myself and all his drifting isn't his fault. It's the stupid SUV.

[BLIZZ]

But the darn thing is really heavy and seems to want to drift around. Because it's so heavy it is hard to slow it down and take turns well. It doesn't handle very well in my opinion. I could see that thing taking out somebody some day just because if you don't pay 100% attention to your driving the darn thing totally ignores all the lines on the street and just rambles all over the place. I have to bite my tongue every time I ride in that thing otherwise I will backseat drive my poor boyfriend to death. But I have driven it myself and all his drifting isn't his fault. It's the stupid SUV.

Get some good quality tires on that thing!.....have the steering linkage checked for wear, have a suspension alignment done.
If that doesn't correct the uncontrolable drfiting that you say is not the drivers fault.
Get rid of that particular SUV or buy driving lessons for the boyfreind.....what you described is not typical for an SUV that is properly maintained and functional.

[makeinu]

Try again.
Nope. I think I hit the nail on the head the first time.

Although you could certainly benefit from taking another crack at it.

[sbhikes]

Get some good quality tires on that thing!.....have the steering linkage checked for wear, have a suspension alignment done.
If that doesn't correct the uncontrolable drfiting that you say is not the drivers fault.
Get rid of that particular SUV or buy driving lessons for the boyfreind.....what you described is not typical for an SUV that is properly maintained and functional.

The darn thing is in perfect condition.

Our last SUV did have real problems with the steering and what a nightmare that was.

[cooker]

Some SUVs are safer, even to others, than some cars.


How so?

[workingbike]

Nimble? How nimble would the family car be getting over the humps in the Forest Service roads in the Sierras to get back in away from the crowds during hunting season? You can't rent a vehicle and take it off the main roads without voiding the insurance. That was part of my point, a large percentage of SUVs go no further off road than when
they go a foot up the sidewalk when they fail in their parallel park. If people need an SUV thats one thing, but too many buy them for the perceived safety aspect

[cooker]

Nimble? How nimble would the family car be getting over the humps in the Forest Service roads in the Sierras
He was talking about nimble in avoiding a crash. Sedans can swerve better than SUVs without flipping over.

[workingbike]

Try again.

Focus on "and."

Good luck!

"From the type of people I see driving them around here, and the way they drive, I'm not so sure."
You are correct. However, It seems from the other responders coming to my defense, that my intent was easily deciphered. I have to ask, are you trying to foment intemperate responses? AKA starting a flame war? I am not suggesting that everybody gets rid of their cars, as things stand at the moment that is clearly impracticable. I am not even suggesting that SUVs should be got rid of, some people have a need for them. I do feel that some SUV drivers could benefit from a better understanding of what is termed "active safety". This was the point of the linked article.

Another question, whats with that avatar/icon?

[Mr. Underbridge]

In general, the bigger SUVs on the road are large, have high centers of gravity, have high bumpers, have huge blind spots, and are heavy. This makes them more likely than most non-SUV cars to:

*flip
*get into more crashes through reduced visibility
*kill occupants of other cars in crashes

Note I'm not talking about glorified station wagons (Forresters, Rav4s, CRVs). I'm talking Navigators, Excursions, Escalades, Hummers, etc. The sort of vehicle that is never seeing an offroad situation anyway, and are disasters on twisty country roads, congested cities, and suburban parking lots alike.

The fact that other sorts of cars exist that are also dangerous is a lame strawman. The fact is that, from the perspective of someone in a neighboring vehicle (or, I don't know, a bike), large SUVs are a menace.

For what it's worth, I've taken a Ford Contour on those dirt roads up in the Sierras with no problem. If the road is wide enough for a beast of an SUV, it's generally in decent enough shape to be handled with a regular old car and some common sense. My experience, anyway.

[littlewaywelt]

an awd minivan will go 95% of the places all suvs go with better mileage and the same capacity. Most fwd cars will handle forest roads just fine. The clearance and traction issue is moot. The average car has 7 inches of clearance, the average suv 9. Those 2 inches don't make a difference unless you're rock crawling.

95% of suvs never go off road

suvs exist because men won't drive minivans.


fwiw, I drove three Jeeps for 15 years. I now drive (or at least my wife does) an awd wagon with same or better clearance than most suvs and the same cargo capacity.

SUVs are not safer than cars and the vast majority of the data shows it, despite the rationalizations about them being bigger, heavier and stouter. In fact, they don't even have to meet many of the same safety standards as passenger cars.

when we go complaining about suvs and gas mileage, though, let's remember that there is a huge group of cars that gets the same deplorable mileage as suvs, but manage to avoid all the criticism. We're all responsible for the gas/oil problem, not just the suvs.

[BLIZZ]

That was part of my point, a large percentage of SUVs go no further off road than when
they go a foot up the sidewalk when they fail in their parallel park. If people need an SUV thats one thing, but too many buy them for the perceived safety aspect

I never perceived my SUV to be a safer type of vehicle.
I purchased it for the convenience and functionality of that style of vehicle.
We are able to take one SUV where we would otherwise have to take two conventional size vehicles.
I didn't intend to go OFF ROADING but wanted the 4WD for winter mud & snow conditions as I live in the country and missing work is not an option.

I still think the big part of the equation is the driver, not the vehicle itself.
I drive my SUV differently than I drive my MINI COOPER.......both have weak and strong points.

[littlewaywelt]

Do those AWD minivans have the same approach and departure angles? Do those AWD minivans have low range? My AWD Dodge Grand Caravan had horrible approach and departure angles and no low range.
Few SUVs now a days have a low range. Even fewer ppl need it. I spent about 15 years driving off road and did my fair share of rock crawling and a low range is rarely needed unless you're crawling. Fewer than 1% of SUV owners take off road travel to that level, like the trails like the Rubicon, or slickrock trails in Utah or wooded trails in Paragon. Approach and departure angles are the same deal. They affect only a very small percent of off road travel. Several of the most sophisticated and capable awd systems are moving to electronic awd systems.

That's a cute slogan, but I did drive minivans. The fact remains that SUVs do things that minivans can't.
Yes, that's true, but again, that level of capability isn't needed by 99% of the ppl that drive suvs, and of those that do take them off trail, few take them beyone places nearly any car would go, like a jeep jamboree level 1 or 2 trail or fireroad. I've gotten my awd wagon into most of the places I'd take my Jeeps.

Some SUVs are safer than some cars.
True, but when you compare them in total very few are.

The issue is not as black and white as you think it is.
I never said it was black and white, but general statements and justifications for SUVs are just not true on the positive side any more than than the negative side.

[littlewaywelt]

95 of suvs never go off road. 99% of of suvs don't need suvs with a low range/great angles of attack or departure. The 95% stat is an industry standard, the 99% stat is my estimation based on the levels of off trail stuff I saw ppl doing over 15 years, nearly all of which was pretty minor.

fewer and fewer have a low range.

I have 15 years of experience in places like slickrock and some other interesting places, and the comments on utility are based on my experience. I've gotten my awd volvo wagon through all the forest trails and class 1 trails I took my Jeep on. Approach angle is a non-issue in my book for most cars. I've done the similar with a stock subaru.

I did not mention the utility of towing because that's a real use of an suv...although my wagon can pull a light boat just as easilly as a Jeep or other med size suv.

[littlewaywelt]

96 jd powers survey
even four wheeler mag estimates (arguably one of the most biased sources you can get) not more than 15% ever go off road.
there are plenty of studies that show the number to be less than 10%, including a 98 carpoint study of 1000 suv owners

here's some other funny info from the carpoint study
-- 30 percent of Americans purchase SUVs for safety, while 30
percent chose an SUV instead of a mini van or station wagon.
-- More than 35 percent of Americans identify with Superman or
Wonder Women while driving their SUV, citing the feeling of power
to avert evil and reach their destination safely.
-- While more than 60 percent of SUV owners have not taken their
vehicle off road for fear of damaging their SUV, nearly 20
percent cited they would like to take their SUV off road, but
don't know where to go.

[littlewaywelt]

that number is 13.4 not 15% and that study does not make any attempt to check the consumer's attempt to justify purchase of the vehicle. They don't even ask the consumer to name a location they've been off road, the standard check. AutoPacific is also funded by the car manufacturers.


I'm going to leave it at that. I think you understand my perspective and I yours, and I don't want to go further off topic.

lww

[BLIZZ]

SUV's are not safer in reguards to general handling characteristics, or emergency manuvers.
The represent a large part of the single vehicle accidents.
However I have seen many large vehicle to small vehicle accidents......when they hit each other, the small vehicle looses.

[no motor?]

SUV's are not safer in reguards to general handling characteristics, or emergency manuvers.
The represent a large part of the single vehicle accidents.
However I have seen many large vehicle to small vehicle accidents......when they hit each other, the small vehicle looses.
I had some friends in a patriotic sized car come out better than the SUV that hit them, but that was because the SUV had flipped over on to it's roof before it hit them.

[BLIZZ]

It's a grey world out there!

No........my SUV is white.:)

I guess a lot depends on the definition of SUV.
Some SUV's are station wagons that aren't called stations wagons because station wagons don't sell.
Some SUV's are big huge land yahts.

[workingbike]

Few SUVs now a days have a low range.

Incorrect.

<snip>
Where did I make a general statement about all SUVs? I have been pointing out the exceptions to the blanket statements from the very beginning.How do you define "few"? Can you give me figures for how many SUVs have low range?

[Dchiefransom]

I have 15 years of experience in places like slickrock and some other interesting places, and the comments on utility are based on my experience. I've gotten my awd volvo wagon through all the forest trails and class 1 trails I took my Jeep on. Approach angle is a non-issue in my book for most cars. I've done the similar with a stock subaru.

I did not mention the utility of towing because that's a real use of an suv...although my wagon can pull a light boat just as easilly as a Jeep or other med size suv.

The roads I go up and down are in logging areas, and the companies are required to leave "humps" about 2 feet high slightly angled across the road. I get over them at an angle in my Wrangler, but even most 2wd pickups hang up. A car or mini-van wouldn't make it. It's not just the clearance, but the wheelbase.

[MrCjolsen]

The roads I go up and down are in logging areas, and the companies are required to leave "humps" about 2 feet high slightly angled across the road. I get over them at an angle in my Wrangler, but even most 2wd pickups hang up. A car or mini-van wouldn't make it. It's not just the clearance, but the wheelbase.

You (and a few others) are missing the point. What percentage of the SUV-buying public actually drives on roads like you do? I'd say very, very few.

The problem is not the existance of SUVs. The problem is that millions and millions of people have mistakenly bought them because they thought they were safer than regular cars. Millions more bought them because they were more cool than minivans. These people clog our freeways with these behemouths when they decide that a Ford Excursion somehow works as the right vehicle for one person commute 100 miles a day in Bay Area or Los Angeles traffic.

[workingbike]

Who are you addressing your question to?
You. You replied to the statement "few SUVs have low range" with "incorrect".

[Gromit]

Can you name the truck with four wheel drive,
Smells like a steak, and seats thirty five?
Canyonero! Canyonero!
Well, it goes real slow with the hammer down
It's the country-fried truck endorsed by a clown
Canyonero! Canyonero!
Hey, hey!
Twelve yards long, two lanes wide,
Sixty five tons of American pride!
Canyonero! Canyonero!
Top of the line in utility sports,
Unexplained fires are a matter for the courts!
Canyonero! Canyonero!
She blinds everybody with her super high beams
She's a squirrel-squashin', deer-smackin' drivin' machine
Canyonero! Canyonero! Canyonero!
Whoa, Canyonero! Whoa!