Electric Bikes - Catastrophic Hub Failure!

Okay, so maybe it's not the end of the world, but I probably won't be able to ride my bike tomoorow.

I ride 48 kms a day on my Giant Cypress I've converted with a Wilderness Energy brushless hub. I use a 36V NiCad battery. On the way home, I stopped for a drink of water (it was 32C) and when I started again the hub didn't work. Nothing. The light was out in the speed control and since the battery seemed fine, I'm thinking it's the controller.

Any engineers out there with theories on why my usually reliable ebike failed?

Were you able to pedal it home?

Were you able to pedal it home?
It was hot and I was fully loaded with groceries (perishable), so I peddled to the nearest subway station.

Hmmm. Would you have been able to ride it home if it was a normal bike?

Hmmm. Would you have been able to ride it home if it was a normal bike?

Of course, why do you ask?

It will be interesting to watch the anti-ebike crowd go into a feeding frenzy with thiis one "oh look an ebike had a mechanical... conventional bikes never have mechanicals... bla bla bla..." The last failures I have had to deal with on conventional bikes (both mine and a friends, on different days) that downed the biks on the raod would have been still ridible if they had been ebikes (broken chains, both times).

Mechanical things break. I will argue that the answer to

Hmmm. Would you have been able to ride it home if it was a normal bike? was most certainly a yes. for that matter I expect that the rider was able to ride the ebike home; or across the county, for that matter, the rider CHOSE a different option.

Enjoy your feeding frenzy, all the while pretending that have never had, and will never have, a mechaincal failure of a system that DOES NOT leave the bike unridable.

On to the problem, unless there is a good reason not to, you cheould be able to test the controller by bypasing it. Run, using test leads, power straight from the battery to the motor. If the motor spins up (and be ready, it will go to full speed) then the motor is probably fine.

How much does all that extra gear weigh?

Depends on the set-up. On the Giant Lite, it's about 10 pounds for the motor and housing and about 8 pounds for the battery. The guys that are doing 50+ I'm going to guess the motor is about the same and the batteries are 20+ pounds.

Of course, why do you ask?

You couldn't pedal your eBike home but you could pedal a normal bike?

I did a battery-less run the other night, I left the battery at home, and even with the electric motor it was still fairly rideable. A lot slower than usual and a bit slower than normal bikers but still rideable.

Every so often I set the Bionx to assist mode #0 so I end up doing all the work. Not a problem. Just slow as heck.

Battery voltage ok? No blown fuse? Jiggled the cables? What's the controller's resistance, ect?

I probably won't be able to ride my bike tomoorow.


I'm not trying to start a flame war. I think some of you may recall that as the forum administrator, I was a bit reluctant to even create an Electric Bikes forum. But since it's here, I would like to enter into discussions with an open mind, yet be able to question the wisdom of electric bikes.

You might not be able to ride your bike tomorrow due to electrical issues? Don't you see the irony in that?

Come to think of it, not being able to pedal it home implies more resistance then usual, is this true?

From the sound of what I've read, my bet is your controller simply has something like a broken on/off switch.

I'm not trying to start a flame war. I think some of you may recall that as the forum administrator, I was a bit reluctant to even create an Electric Bikes forum. But since it's here, I would like to enter into discussions with an open mind, yet be able to question the wisdom of electric bikes.

You might not be able to ride your bike tomorrow due to electrical issues? Don't you see the irony in that?

Brian, most are defensive re e-bikes as some are prone to bag them out.
I ride both, mostly HPV unless carrying an injury or have been over doing the riding.
They are great fun and if used as an assist will give a good level of exercise plus anyway you cut it if it reduces car use it can't be bad.
I live in a very steep enviroment and they allow me to get light exercise when injured, mind you if you take an e-bike out with the idea of pushing your average speed they can burn more energy than an unassisted bike due to their weight, but they can also allow insane average speeds.
Great for a dedicated commuter, if you are a bit off colour use the e-bike.
They also allow a more gentle intro to riding for the less fit or terrain challenge newbie.
Oh and the other use I am reading of more often is to allow long distance commuting.

was it sealed bearings or ball bearings? Probably bearings failed. Routine maintenance might have prevented the problem. Would not extra weight on the hubs enhance the need for maintenance schedules. ? Never any sign of a problem before this failure. Seems a sign of pending hub failure is a wobbly wheel?

Don't own an E-bike....yet;) but have been researching them with interest. I want to get my hands on one of the not yet on the market Schwinn Campus (http://www.schwinnbike.com/products/bikes_detail.php?id=889) models. And I will be seriously considering a Stoke Monkey on an Xtracyle. They definitely have their place in the transportation mix. As far as reliability and what happens when they break down...anything mechanical is subject to failure at some point in time. I saw at least 7 cars on the side of the road on the way into work this morning that weren't there on the way home last night:p The good news is with a bike if it breaks you can push it home;)

Aaron:)

Brian, most are defensive re e-bikes as some are prone to bag them out.
I ride both, mostly HPV unless carrying an injury or have been over doing the riding.
They are great fun and if used as an assist will give a good level of exercise plus anyway you cut it if it reduces car use it can't be bad.
I live in a very steep enviroment and they allow me to get light exercise when injured, mind you if you take an e-bike out with the idea of pushing your average speed they can burn more energy than an unassisted bike due to their weight, but they can also allow insane average speeds.
Great for a dedicated commuter, if you are a bit off colour use the e-bike.
They also allow a more gentle intro to riding for the less fit or terrain challenge newbie.
Oh and the other use I am reading of more often is to allow long distance commuting.

I know they were starting to gain interest in popularity when I left NSW, but if it's no longer rideable due to the drive mechanism, that really defeats the purpose.

When the components become lighter, seamless in operation, and more aesthetically pleasing, then I might begrudgingly acknowledge their usefulness. But for now, adding 18 pounds or more of mechanically questionable weight to a bicycle seems like a foolish endeavour to me.

And I don't buy the argument that even normal bikes have mechanical issues. No one has had to push their bike home due to an issue they were unable to diagnose. Flats can be fixed, broken chains are rare. There is hardly any mystery to how a bicycle works.

I'm not trying to start a flame war. I think some of you may recall that as the forum administrator, I was a bit reluctant to even create an Electric Bikes forum. But since it's here, I would like to enter into discussions with an open mind, yet be able to question the wisdom of electric bikes.

You might not be able to ride your bike tomorrow due to electrical issues? Don't you see the irony in that?

Do you know how many broken "normal" bikes I see at the LBS every day? Looks like they're not riding their bikes either. :rolleyes:

And I often run into "normal" bikes broken down on the bike paths as well. They're not invulnerable to break downs either.

Mechanical things break... it just happens. Doesn't matter if it's electric powered or human powered or gas powered. Sure more complex vehicles may break down even more than others. You're not likely to dump your bike for roller skates are you?

And I don't buy the argument that even normal bikes have mechanical issues. No one has had to push their bike home due to an issue they were unable to diagnose. Flats can be fixed, broken chains are rare. There is hardly any mystery to how a bicycle works.

I see plenty of people pushing their bikes home all the time. Flats are the most common problems. I sometimes run into people with snapped brake/derailleur cables, broken chains, bent wheels and so on.

Maybe they should all just dump their bikes and get rollerblades instead. :rolleyes:

I know they were starting to gain interest in popularity when I left NSW, but if it's no longer rideable due to the drive mechanism, that really defeats the purpose.

When the components become lighter, seamless in operation, and more aesthetically pleasing, then I might begrudgingly acknowledge their usefulness. But for now, adding 18 pounds or more of mechanically questionable weight to a bicycle seems like a foolish endeavour to me.

And I don't buy the argument that even normal bikes have mechanical issues. No one has had to push their bike home due to an issue they were unable to diagnose. Flats can be fixed, broken chains are rare. There is hardly any mystery to how a bicycle works.

ebikes are extremely reliable. The benefits they provide far outweigh the disadvantages such as the very few occasions where the motor would break down. My motor never broke down, but I've had a couple of occasions where my battery ran out or I had to conserve it and run at assist 0 on the flats. The bike wasn't all that much slower. I'd say I was going 1-2mph slower than a regular bike.

Zeuser, I'm not buying your argument. I carry a spare tube, a few patches, and a multi-tool with a chain breaker. I've never had to walk my bike home.

Zeuser, I'm not buying your argument. I carry a spare tube, a few patches, and a multi-tool with a chain breaker. I've never had to walk my bike home.

To me, what that says is that you personally do not need an e-bike. I'm baffled, though, by the fact that people aren't comparing e-bikes to gas scooters instead of to bicycles. Bicycles have some very obvious advantages over mo-peds/motorcycles/cars, but none of the anti-Ebike arguments seem to acknowlege the fact that in some situations a motor-less vehicle is an inferior choice... and in some of those situations an ebike is probably one of the simplest, cheapest, most efficient motor vehicles available for the job.

Brian, if it's not too much to ask, please answer this question:

would you prefer people (other than yourself) whose physical condition, desire to avoid sweating, riding distance, and/or some other factor convinces them not to ride a regular bicycle to choose:
a)e-bikes,
b)an economy car, OR
c)a vespa or similar scooter?

I'm making a couple of assumptions here: that it's best for the person to minimize waste of limited resources and minimize pollution (whether C02, N0x, unburnt fuel, etc)... and for the person to avoid the health problems that come with not exercising. Let's also assume that, for the forseeable future, vehicles with motors will remain popular in developed countries. Of course, I am also making the bold assumption that some segment of the population is actually willing to use e-bikes.

You've placed a lot of conditions on that one, but of course I would like to see them use an ebike. I just don't understand why any able-bodied person would want to add the extra weight, if they can ride a bike without all that. I'm also not impressed by some of the dangerous backyard engineering I've seen.

For what it's worth, I have 8 bicycles, a very economical car, and a motorcycle (with an engine larger than the one in my car) that's reasonably economical as well.

I just don't understand why any able-bodied person would want to add the extra weight, if they can ride a bike without all that.

You and I don't seem to be in that camp, but some of our bikeforums members don't understand why an able-bodied person would want to own a car, Brian.

I sympathize with those members' disgust at the way cars are overused in the USA and many other countries, and I also don't own a car or use one for my day-to-day needs.

By the way I also consider motorcycles to be too heavy and inefficient to be good replacements for e-bikes... just as I consider e-bikes to be too heavy and inefficient to be good replacements for regular bikes in many situations.

Brian, considering your opinion of electric bicycles, I can't for the life of me understand why you would have created this sub-forum.

You and I don't seem to be in that camp, but some of our bikeforums members don't understand why an able-bodied person would want to own a car, Brian.

I sympathize with those members' disgust at the way cars are overused in the USA and many other countries, and I also don't own a car or use one for my day-to-day needs.

You're joking, right? I drive a car to get to work when the weather is bad. There is no other option. I drive a car to pick up my wife from work (she takes a bus to work). I drive a car to haul my family around, and I drive a car to Lowes to pick up supplies for all the remodelling and landscaping I am doing on my home. I used to drive a car to get from one photo shoot to the next. There is no shame in owning a car and providing for your family. I could not do that where I live, without a car.

There is nothing wrong with owning and driving a car. I pass 5,000lb "American" cars with a lone occupant all the time - that's wrong.


By the way I also consider motorcycles to be too heavy and inefficient to be good replacements for e-bikes... just as I consider e-bikes to be too heavy and inefficient to be good replacements for regular bikes in many situations.

At 800lbs, my motorcycle is a bit on the porky side. But it allows my wife and I to explore the US, and certainly see a bit more than we would on our tandem.


Brian, considering your opinion of electric bicycles, I can't for the life of me understand why you would have created this sub-forum.

Allen, it's my job to keep the members happy, and help our community grow. Members asked for an ebike forum, so they got an ebike forum. I may not care for them, (ebikes, not the members :)) but I can respect the fact that they have their place amongst cyclists.

As the original poster of this thread, I object to some members who are trying to use it to 'dis' ebikes. If you read the original thread you will see I was asking for advice on what part failed from someone who knew about such things..

I have since discovered its the controller and have bought another one. Sadly only one member responded with something useful.

For the record, I bike 48 kms to work each day and about 350 kms a week all year round. It is simply not possible for a 60 year old to do that without some help. If you don't want an electric bike, then don't buy one.

Allen, it's my job to keep the members happy, and help our community grow. Members asked for an ebike forum, so they got an ebike forum. I may not care for them, (ebikes, not the members :)) but I can respect the fact that they have their place amongst cyclists.

I appreciate that you're open-minded about it, at least somewhat. :) Let us try to convince you that there are situations where an ebike is the best choice.

For me, the ebike is the only way I can ride to work during the hot summer months. I cannot shower at work, so I have to arrive without getting too hot. My commute is 6.7 miles. On a 60+ degree morning, with 90+% humidity, I have found that I can't cycle to work and still be presentable, even with changing clothes. (I'm ~200 pounds, at 5'10. I suspect that warmer temps will be ok as I lose weight, but right now 60 is about it.) With the ebike, I can ride to work, pedaling as much as my core temp will tolerate. The ride home is where I get my real exercise. If I drove, I wouldn't get any at all. That's the key point: the ebike allows me to get SOME *real* riding in, every day.

During the cooler months, generally October-May, I commute on a single-speed Bianchi San Jose.

Stokell, I'm sorry that I couldn't help you troubleshoot the issue. But I had to comment on the fact that you were not able to ride due to a failure of one of the components of your seconday power.

To you and dwainedibbly - if an ebike means the difference between riding to work and not riding to work, well, I guess that makes them a good thing. That's pretty cool

See, y'all done learned me a bit. :D

... I just don't understand why any able-bodied person would want to add the extra weight, if they can ride a bike without all that.....


example 1) Instead of arriving to work in 40 minutes all sweaty, I can arrive with a little less effort in 35 minutes with much less sweat

example 2) Going to buy grocieries at the local Safeway doesn't involve building up a sweat

example 3) Towing my 3 year old in a trailer up a hill doesn't require an intense workout or settling for cruising 5mph.

There are many many reasons. I've done about 3000 miles of bike commuting mixing between the road bike and ebike. It's so much nicer to get where I'm going AND still experience riding a bike AND not using a car when not necessary on an e-bike.

I just don't understand why any able-bodied person would want to add the extra weight, if they can ride a bike without all that.

Read -> eBike FAQ (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=297376)

We've gotten past that now, see posts 27-29.

WOW!
Once I had time to check things over, it turns out the problem was the fuse in the battery pack. I didn't even know there was one. It's a car type fuse. Once I replaced it I was good to go. Thanks for everyone's concern.

There is still one member insisting that I couldn't ride the bike when the fuse failed. For the record you can ride an ebike when you are not using the assistance. Your choice is time and sweat. If you have the time and don't mind arriving sweaty, you can continue to ride. I still think ebikes are reliable, I just need to have more experience so when I experience a failure, I will know what to do.

http://www.digitaldreammachine.com/blogimages/luxo/CarsTowMaterImage.jpg


If cars never failed they wouldn't need tow trucks.

Still got that spare controller on the way? You could mod one with better fets for more amps, better low end grunt.

I started commuting a couple years ago and right about the same time discovered a health problem that has proven to knock me off my game every time I’ve developed any consistency. I consider myself able bodied, but I also have some limitations that come and go with my health issue. In the end I get really bummed out when my mind is totally committed but my medical advice is to take it easy. I live in a steep area that requires a long steep climb at the end of the day. With a regular bike I’m either feeling good and can take the brutal climb or I don’t ride at all. I’m considering an ebike as a way to take the edge off a daily hard ride such that I can keep up a medium intensity ride consistently as opposed to on again off again. I was thinking minimal assist (make up for the added weight) on the flats and then use the juice when I would otherwise be going 6 miles and hour up a steep hill for 20 min.

I still want to keep my Scott Sub as I love to ride it, but if an ebike can help fill the gaps and keep me rolling on two wheels I’m all for it.

By the way is anybody aware of reviews on the following bikes? It appears that the Lithium batteries take the bulk out of these systems. I like the continental frame geometry and looks very basic with the internal drive system. It may just be an expensive bike with cheap components though? http://www.schwinnbike.com/products/bikes_category.php?id=109

Also are there any lithium retrofit kits yet? I would consider converting my Scott, but don’t really care for the bulky batteries.

Matt

Matt,
I am a complete newbie when it comes to e-bikes so someone else will have to answer your questions on converison. The only one I can help with is the Schwinn one. "Supposedly" those bikes were supposed to start shipping in May of this year. My dealer still doesn't have theirs that they ordered last year. And from your description an ebike is probably the way to go.

Aaron:)

So it will probably be super frenzy when the Schwinn's hit the market. I don't really associate Schwinn with quality, but the continental electric is very attractive for what it offers.

Love to hear from you when your dealer gets them in. I live in Albuquerque, NM and according to Schwinn's website the only dealer they list appears to a have gone out of business.

I was thinking about one of the Giant models as well.

Thanks,

Matt

I'll make a special note to check with the ebike guys at Interbike 2007.

The discussion about Schwinn, makes me want to remind Canadian members that Canadian Tire seems to own the 'marque' in Canada and markets different bikes under the Schwinn name.

http://images.canadiantire.ca/media/images/products/images/SportsRec/BikesAccessories/BikesAdult/0711519E_450_CC_64d61.jpg

These are sold at CAD$599. I don't think U-S members are talking about these.

this is the one i like, but i haven't really done much research. it looks like a normal bike almost.

http://www.schwinnbike.com/images/catalog/r_17.35.AS7_CONTINENTAL_M.jpg

From what I gather there are at least 2 different lines of Schwinn bikes being built. There are the low end gotta meet a price point stuff that they sell at CT,WM, Target etc. Then there is the line the have on the Schwinn Bikes (http://www.schwinnbike.com/products/) website that they sell at the LBS. I have two LBS's in my area that both carry Schwinn. One is a regular bike shop with multiple brands and they sell a lot of high end stuff too. The other is a bike and lawn mower shop repair center. I suspect in their case the bikes are about 10-15% of their total business. They carry Schwinn, Huffy and Sun bicycles. They are the closest one to my house so they get my business for the stuff I need on a regular basis, like tubes, cables, and parts for my beaters, and they are more than happy to orders stuff for me that they don't normally stock, like Freddy Fenders and Schwalbe tires. They do stock a lot of things from Wald and Pyramid...

Aaron:)

It has a Nexus HUB...... hear anything good or bad about them?

http://bike.shimano.com/catalog/cycle/products/group.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302050777&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474395181674&bmUID=1182111279171

It has a Nexus HUB...... hear anything good or bad about them?

Nexus Hub (http://bike.shimano.com/catalog/cycle/products/group.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302050777&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474395181674&bmUID=1182111279171)
Those are excellent hubs. Most of mine are old Sturmey Archer because most of my stuff is old.:p But everyone I know that has a Nexus has been happy with it.

Aaron:)

Matt,
Nothing but good things about the Nexus hubs. The Red Band line is the upper end, but I've heard about no failures with the non-red banded Nexus hubs. I've ridden both, and both preformed very similarly.

I'm one of a loyal following of internal hubs, and have them on all of my bikes ('cept my SS/FG). A search in the Commuting forum for internal hubs will bring up a huge list of threads discussing them.

Thanks guys. The other two Schwinn ebikes seem pretty expensive for what appears to be lower level Shimano components. I'd hate to have a 1500 dollar ebike that was really a 300 dollar bike with a 1200 dollar electric system, but I'd be pretty happy with an 800 dollar bike with a 1200 electric system if you get my drift. Bikes get some major upgrades going from the 300 to 800 price point.

I have an upgraded Scott Sub 20 that I think is a great bike.... maybe I should just retrofit it. In the end if I want a "pure" bike it might be the time to get a second bike that is more dedicated to riding than commuting.

If I could briefly put on my cynic hat, I'd like to point out that your bike was incapacitated by a 50 cent fuse.

No, it was "incapacitated" (good electrical pun!) by not knowing that there was a 50 cent fuse. :)

I seriously doubt the Schwinn will go anywhere near 60 miles (as claimed) and the little 400 watt motor will probably give disappointing performance.

They are just now shipping their first round of Electric Continentals, all which are spoken for. I called performance bike and got a quote of 2k and early oct.

I asked the guy at schwinn a bunch of questions and from what I can tell my Scott Sub 20 with a bionx system will be a much sweeter ride for the money.

So now I’m wondering 250 or 350W and NiMH or Li?

I’m 220, my panniers carry 30lbs, and I’m going from ~4500 to 6000ft elevation during a 12.5 mile ride. It’s pretty flat and then gets steep at the end.

I’m not interested in a free ride, so maybe the 250w system will do the trick? I’m guessing I’ll use 25% assistance and haul ass during the flat part of my ride and then kick it up to 50 or 100% for the “hill”. If I start to get worn down I’ll bump those numbers up.

At least that’s how it plays out in my mind :rolleyes:

They are just now shipping their first round of Electric Continentals, all which are spoken for. I called performance bike and got a quote of 2k and early oct.

I asked the guy at schwinn a bunch of questions and from what I can tell my Scott Sub 20 with a bionx system will be a much sweeter ride for the money.

So now I’m wondering 250 or 350W and NiMH or Li?

I’m 220, my panniers carry 30lbs, and I’m going from ~4500 to 6000ft elevation during a 12.5 mile ride. It’s pretty flat and then gets steep at the end.

I’m not interested in a free ride, so maybe the 250w system will do the trick? I’m guessing I’ll use 25% assistance and haul ass during the flat part of my ride and then kick it up to 50 or 100% for the “hill”. If I start to get worn down I’ll bump those numbers up.

At least that’s how it plays out in my mind :rolleyes:

If you can afford the 350 lithium ion system, I'd recommend that. You get quite a long range at the lowest assistance level. I have the 250 lithium ion system and am wishing I had bought the 350 li-ion system for the extra range. My current range is 25 miles at level 3 assistance.

Thanks for the info. I just ordered the 250/NiMH. If I'm not mistaken level 3 is 100% assistance? 1=25%, 2=50%, 3=100%, and 4=200%

I'm doing a 12.5 mile commute that is down hill one direction and up hill on the return. I'm suspecting that I'll mostly use the assistance up hill probably at level 2. My bike with loaded panniers, the bionx system, and me is around 300lbs.

so you are getting 25 miles with pretty minimal effort if I'm not mistaken (on level 3) How much does your bike weigh rolling down the road including you? How far can you go on level 2?

This is great info thanks.

Thanks :beer: