Recreational & Family - WANTED: A *Light* and *Rigid* 20" (406) Frame/Frameset/Bike

Can anyone suggest a source for a light and rigid (no suspension) frame or frameset or complete bike to be fitted with 20" (ISO 406) wheels?

My six year old is riding a 20" (406) bike now, but it's got suspension front and rear and weighs about as much as a Chevy small block V8. Even so, he's routinely riding 15+ miles @ 10-12mph average (all on paved trails). He loves biking, but I think he'd love it a lot more with a much lighter bike. I've Googled every way I can think of but can't find much. I'll buy him a real road bike in a year or two. For now I'd just like him to have a lighter bike.

Geared unsuspended 20" kids bikes are very difficult to find anymore. None of the larger manufacturers (Trek, Giant, Gary Fisher, etc.) configure them that way anymore. The single speeds will be suspensionless but add gears and they add front suspension at a minimum.

There was a thread recently in here that mentioned an English made bike that looked like just the ticket though. Light frame, decent components, etc. The only downside was the cost. It was fairly reasonable on the bike but the shipping bumped it up to ~$500 if I remember correctly. I'll try to find the thread later.

Could consider buying a Denali road bike for ~$150.00. Big thread about it here:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=237231

Or just replace the front fork with a rigid steel one...that should shave a few pounds off.

Here's the thread Masiman's referencing:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=299322

I bought a BMX racing bike for my 7-year old who does similar riding. Light as a feather, he does 20+ no problem regularly. pro's & cons of such bikes as well as the british 20" discussed in thread above.

Could consider buying a Denali road bike for ~$150.00. Big thread about it here:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=237231

Or just replace the front fork with a rigid steel one...that should shave a few pounds off.

The kid is 6 years old!! How is he going to fit the Denali (700c rims). There is a boys version but that is a 17" frame with 24" tires. Very, very unlikely that will fit him.

On the other hand, the fork replacement idea could work. You'll have to find a bike to swap the forks with. Hopefully you won't have to contend with the kid not liking mismatched paint on the bike.

Thanks for the the link lesterdog.

Checkout Junior BMX racing bikes, they are light, rigid and run the larger 450 - 1" wheels.

The later models have Aheads so you can play around with flat and shallow drop bars if you want (note* older BMX quills and bars are different to road).

I know Gt, Redline and Diamondback all do this size bike.

well, if you're doing all paved trails, why not just all in and get the kid a junior road bike. I got my 6 year old a Felt F24 for Christmas. Has to change the stem and turn the seatpost around to get ride of any setback, but with those minor adjustments, he just did fit the bike. Now he has hit another growth spurt and it's even better.

He absolutely LOVES it. Downside is $$$$, but these are often on fleabay. Trek, Orbea and Felt all make one and I'm fairly certain you'll find others as you look also. The used ones typically go for around $375-400 when we were looking.

Otherwise, he also has a Giant 125 that is an '06 model that is 7 speed and rigid fork for his off-road adventures.

...just replace the front fork with a rigid steel one...that should shave a few pounds off.

I would if that were the only problem. Unfortunately, his bike also has a rear suspension made by hinging the frame near the bottom bracket. Replacing the fork would help, but it will still be heavier than my steel Surly Long Haul Trucker touring bike (in the largest framesize made).

I guess biking is no different than most sports in that no matter how much research you do before you jump in, you still need to participate in it for a year or so before you begin to know how to determine what you want. I bought this bike for my son barely more than a year ago. When I bought it for my son, I gave no consideration to anything other than (1) how much it cost, (2) how cool my son thought it looked. I'd never buy it for him today. In fact, none of the "first" bikes I bought for my wife, my daughter, and myself would I buy again if I had it to do over again. I'm just hoping not to have to add on a new garage to hold the family bike fleet before I finally get this right.

Take a look at Isla Bikes, who I think masiman was trying to think of, (http://www.islabikes.co.uk/index.html). We're going to Britain in August and fully intend to buy one of their smaller bikes for my 3 1/2 year old. I've heard nothing but praise for them so far, and unlike the major manufacturers they don't weigh a ton.

I'm not sure how the cost would stack up, importing into the US from Britain though.

Ian

Giant Frantic 20" Look Dad, no suspension. $160

And for a little bit bigger kid, the Trek KDR 7.2FX with 24" wheels. $430


To look cool riding with Dad, the Trek KDR 1000 $650

Cool looking 20" cruiser bike from Marin $259 boys and girls options.
LINK (http://marinbikes.com/bicycles_2007/html/bikes/bike_photos_zoom/z_muir_beach_2.html)

And for a little bit bigger kid, the Trek KDR 7.2FX with 24" wheels. $430
To look cool riding with Dad, the Trek KDR 1000 $650

It will be a year or more before he could fit either of those. The S/O of the 7.2FX is 24.9" and the S/O of the KDR 1000 is 24.6." The most he can standover flat-footed is 22." He's a very steady rider, but I don't want him to have to be on tiptoes to avoid crushing my grandchildren on the top tube.

Then perhaps the 20" Frantic will work. At some point, it'll be good to teach him to dismount from the saddle when stopping. That will also allow the seat to be raised to a proper height; far too many kids ride with the seat way too low. Uncomfortable and inefficient. Not saying next week or even next year, but when he's more comfortable riding and more confident.

Giant Frantic 20" Look Dad, no suspension. $160

Instead of buying a 20" single speed like this one and throwing away the wheels, I'm leaning toward building up a geared bike from a no-suspension 20" single speed bmx frame. That is, if I can achieve a decent result without overspending. Right now I'm stuck on these points:

(1) Is it better/easier/cheaper to install an internally geared rear hub (example: Shimano Nexus 8 speed) or some sort of derailer? The single speeds all have horizontal dropouts and no derailer hanger, so I'm not sure how I'd attach a derailer, but surely there's a way.

(2) If I use a hub, I'll have to build the rear wheel. Most of the 20" (406) wheels seem to have a 28 spoke design, but all the Nexus hubs I've found so far are setup for a 36 spoke wheel. I know that people have put Nexus hubs on 20" bikes, but so far i can't find a parts source (and haven't finished looking yet). I'd be wanting some reasonably lightweight wheels and smooth, low rolling resistance tires. If I go with a derailer, I'd probably buy the wheels and tires from some recumbent dealer which stocks light, quality 406 wheels and tires.

(3) Neither this Giant Frantic, nor any of the other single speeds I've seen have front brakes, which means that the front fork has no brake hangers. I'd want to install a front brake, but I don't know how short of finding a fork separate from the frame.

search around and you could likely find one of these: 2005 Giant 125. 7 speeds, 20" wheels, no shocks.


This is what my 6 year old has. Some gears, but not too many to overwhelm him in the choices.

search around and you could likely find one of these: 2005 Giant 125. 7 speeds, 20" wheels, no shocks. This is what my 6 year old has. Some gears, but not too many to overwhelm him in the choices.

So the 2005 model had no shocks, front or rear?

So the 2005 model had no shocks, front or rear?

Tis true, the geared Giant 125, 2005 model year was the last year they made them suspensionless. We have one them. I am quite pleased with it. It has an articulating stem that allows you to adjust the cockpit to fit, 7 speeds, SRAM shifting, decent saddle. I bought some high pressure 20" recumbent tires to help lower rolling resistance and let us get in longer rides. Not much off roading being done so this works out okay for now.

In my earlier comment about fork swapping, I meant that you could likely accomplish this by getting a hard tail geared bike and then find a rigid fork to fit that. This might be the easiest option in that there are plenty of both types of bikes like these out there. Just not very many non-suspended geared bikes. Those Isla's do look very nice though. I am toying with ordering their 24" for my oldest in the next year or two.

I got my granddaughter the 2006 Giant 225; it has 24" wheels and no suspension. I don't understand the love affair with suspensions for kids but they must be in demand because that's pretty much all they offer. The 2007 model looks the same but has front suspension.




Regarding the fork swapping, it should be quite possible to get the 2007 Giant MTX 125 20" mtn. bike for boys then order a 2005 front fork for a MTX 125. (the 2006 MTX 125 has a suspension fork.)

Instead of buying a 20" single speed like this one and throwing away the wheels, I'm leaning toward building up a geared bike from a no-suspension 20" single speed bmx frame. That is, if I can achieve a decent result without overspending.


WHY?

A light weight single speed will teach him to spin and to ride a bike using the full range of his muscles and coordination better than plodding along bashing gears.

WHY?

A light weight single speed will teach him to spin and to ride a bike using the full range of his muscles and coordination better than plodding along bashing gears.

Ummm... because the bike that he's been riding for the past 14 mos. or so is geared (7 speed). He rides the roads and paved trails with me and the rest of the family. I pull the 2.5 year old in a two wheeler and the 5 year old rides a single-wheel pedal trailer behind mom. The family averages 10-12 mph and we tend to go about 15-20 miles per ride. Frankly, it never occurred to me that it would be possible for him to keep up riding a single speed. He uses lower gears for going up hill and higher gears for flat areas where he likes to show his mom that he's the fastest.

Maybe I'll take him for a ride on a single speed and see how he reacts.

If I use a hub, I'll have to build the rear wheel. Most of the 20" (406) wheels seem to have a 28 spoke design, but all the Nexus hubs I've found so far are setup for a 36 spoke wheel. I know that people have put Nexus hubs on 20" bikes, but so far i can't find a parts source

I've built a few 406 wheels using the Sun CR18 rim, which is available in 36h. My LBS sells 'em for about $24, ordered from Quality Bike Parts, I believe.

I think the Nexus 8 is a good option to consider, but there's a price and weight penalty. And it's axle spacing is 132 mm, so I'm not certain you could get it to fit the type of frame you have in mind. Sturmey Archer makes an 8sp hub that is, I believe, 120 mm, but I've heard some complaints about shifting performance.

Jack

Ummm... because the bike that he's been riding for the past 14 mos. or so is geared (7 speed). He rides the roads and paved trails with me and the rest of the family. He uses lower gears for going up hill and higher gears for flat areas where he likes to show his mom that he's the fastest.

Maybe I'll take him for a ride on a single speed and see how he reacts.


He sounds strong and enthusiastic but are you sure you're not confusing operating gears with using gears.

I see a lot of kids operating gears on heavy bikes, they throw their bodyweight forward and bounce to get the bike going regardless of the gear chosen, the bikes are so heavy and the power output of juveniles is so minimal there is no chance of them developing good technique as a rider as all effort is in overcoming the weight of the bike.

My youngest has just moved onto geared bikes at 12yrs, he has been riding lightweight single speeds for road track bmx and mtb since he was five as did his brother.

The lightweight small geared bikes have taught him to spin to go fast and to use his muscles and body position to climb efficiently.

An observation of both boys when they first moved to geared bikes was that they instinctively geared down to accelerate by spinning and they maintained their position on the bike using the whole body to apply power or as Keith Bontrager put it 'dynamic riding position in and out of the seat'. This hasn't been drummed into them this is just how they ride bikes as the bikes they have ridden have allowed them to develop proper technique.

Hard to explain in a short forum reply but a lightweight bike allows the child (he is only 6 right?) to command and respond to the bike and conditions where a heavy bike commands exertion. The small single speed makes riding and technique the main focus not the changing of gears.

Hope this is of help, good luck with your rider.

I think the geared or single speed decision is more than a training question. There are definite pros and cons with both approaches. For off road riding they can be really great. But I would rather they had a geared bike if road riding were what they did mostly. But a geared bike should not come until they are very comfortable on a single speed. Gears and hand brakes add a lot of complications. Different kids can handle it at different times. 6 sounds early but only you know your child well enough to make that decision.

WHY? A light weight single speed will teach him to spin and to ride a bike using the full range of his muscles and coordination better than plodding along bashing gears.



...are you sure you're not confusing operating gears with using gears? ...a lightweight bike allows the child... to command and respond to the bike and conditions where a heavy bike commands exertion. The small single speed makes riding and technique the main focus not the changing of gears.

Hmmm... much food for thought. My little guy turned 7 a week ago. Perhaps the smartest thing is to get a really lightweight single speed and let him ride it. I can always convert it to a geared bike later. I just assumed that he'd need the gears to continue riding 15-20 miles at 10-12 mph, but I could be wrong. I guess I'll try and see what happens.

just assumed that he'd need the gears to continue riding 15-20 miles at 10-12 mph


10-12mph is only 15-20kph.

20kph max
45" 3.5m gear will be around 95rpm cadence
55" 4.5m gear will be around 75rpm cadence

This is a very achievable range for him, 85-95 is the most muscular efficient range for long rides and a good target.

Most BMX Junior or mini bikes are geared in the low 50's.

I think the geared or single speed decision is more than a training question. There are definite pros and cons with both approaches. For off road riding they can be really great. But I would rather they had a geared bike if road riding were what they did mostly. But a geared bike should not come until they are very comfortable on a single speed. Gears and hand brakes add a lot of complications. Different kids can handle it at different times. 6 sounds early but only you know your child well enough to make that decision.

He's been riding on a geared (7 sp) bike for a little over a year. He never rides less than 5 miles. He typically rides 15+ miles. His average (the family average -- because he only rides with his family) is 10-12 mph. He's very, very steady. In a year, he's never had a crash; never ridden out of control. He brakes only with hand brakes (there is coaster brake on this bike). He starts, rides and stops in full control.

If there is a PHYSICAL (muscular) reason why he should be on a single speed, that's one thing. However, I reject the notion that there is a MENTAL reason why he should be on a single speed. He's proven himself capable of handling the gears, hand brakes, etc. If he'll get stronger physically from riding a SS while still *enjoying* riding, then I'm open to putting him on a light ss. I'm not running a boot camp or a phys ed class or trying to raise my own Lance. Goal number one is having fun as a family -- and we are. This all started when I concluded that he'd probably have *more* fun riding on a *lighter* bike.

Yours sounds a lot like mine. I would have gotten him GEARED and LIGHT if I could have found it. Couldn't so went with LIGHT. No regrets and no problems on moderate hills. He probably averages a little slower 8-10 mph, but has no problem doing 10+ for long stretches. Put a lot of miles on the micro (he's small!) version of this already:

http://www.harborcountrybike.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=g5146

Buy what you and your boy feel is right for the type of riding he does, this may not be a single bike. A lot of people jump to conclusions when you tell them you are looking for a bike for a 7 year old. You invariably get the suspension is of no use to a kid, kids can't use hand brakes, and kids can't figure out gears. Those are generalizations that do not apply to all kids.
My 8 year old son races BMX, rides on serious mountain bike trails (Whistler and others), and loves to ride in the skate parks. No one bike suits what he wants to do so he has 3 bikes(mountain bike, BMX dirt jump style, BMX race bike). No doubt a lot of parents will immediately think, spoiled kid, but we built these bikes together and ride practically every day, it was money well spent and cheaper than buying him a Nintendo and a bunch of games. So to add to the confusion, here are my opinions:
BMX race bikes are fantastic little machines, they are light, rigid, simple, fast and much stronger than they look. The downside is that they are designed to be ridden standing, have only a rear brake and it would be difficult to put a multiple gear system on them. You can set the seat really high and muck about with the bars to achieve a road like position but it is a compromise. The rear dropout is usually "caged" in some sense so even the derailleurs that bolt to the axle would be awkward to fit. In addition, the axle spacing in the rear is narrower than a road or mountain bike so you would be hard pressed to fit a cassette in there. They do generally have a flip-flop hub so you could mount a freewheel to both sides, which would allow you to flip the wheel around to choose the gear that suited the moment but this would change the chain line so you would need to adjust the brakes. If you do decide to go this route you will have an advantage of sorts on resale as these bikes hold their value really well, you can usually sell them at the local tracks for $100.00 off the original purchase price.
BMX flatland or dirt jump style bikes give you the same simplicity as the race bikes but with a stronger frame and wider tires/wheels that will take a lot more punishment. They are heavier but you can find some light ones. Front and rear brakes are common but I took off the front one as it presents more of a danger than a safety feature when jumping. These bikes are a lot more common but try to find one with a short top tube (under 19 inches), you see little kids riding full size BMX bikes all the time with the bars leaned way back so they can fit on the things, this is not a good thing. As for putting in a Nexus hub or equivalent, you need to check the rear spacing, BMX hubs are not usually as wide as road or mountain bike hubs.
Kids mountain bikes are notoriously heavy and often come with basically non-functional suspension, junky brakes, etc.. but this is not always the case. I hunted around a lot when I bought this bike, including looking at the Giant models that others have posted. The Giants have the advantage of a very low standover but they are very heavy and the components are bottom of the line Shimano. Kona makes a pretty good kids bike (Makena) but it is pricey. Norco has a couple in both aluminum and steel, single speed or geared that are quite good as well but I didn't want a front derailleur. Specialized has a couple, but are pricey. What I finally found was a K2 Zed 20 from REI, I am in Canada so this was purchased on a trip to the USA. I got a 2004 model left over from the prior year, this model had a couple better features than the newer one. It is an honest 25 lbs stock, that sounds like a lot for a kids bike but it is actually about the lightest one out there, most are 30 plus, and the front fork works smoothly. Over the 2 years he has been riding it I changed the brake pads for some replaceable cartridge Kool Stops, put in a short cage Deore level rear derailleur, a dirt jumper style seat and lighter seat post and I plan on putting on the light cranks that I just took off his BMX race bike as he has moved to longer cranks. When I change the bottom bracket and cranks the bike should be in the 22 - 23 pound range as the stock cranks are heavy. When we go on road rides I take off the knobby tires, raise the seat so he gets full extension and put on some BMX semi-slick tires. This bike is serving him well and he can toss it around pretty easily.
Good luck to you

If there is a PHYSICAL (muscular) reason why he should be on a single speed, that's one thing. However, I reject the notion that there is a MENTAL reason why he should be on a single speed.

I hope you do not think that I was talking about your child. I was stating my general opinion on the geared vs. SS question. That you should take your childs combined physical, coordination and cognitive capabilities into account. Even after you do that, you only have some metrics to help you decide what you think is best.

I did not advocate either solution, just things to consider in your decision. I wish you luck in getting there.

When we go on road rides I take off the knobby tires, raise the seat so he gets full extension and put on some BMX semi-slick tires.

Check out the 20" recumbent tires in QBP for a wider selection of slicks.

this is a 20" bike


check out the other bikes pictured on this website:

http://www.adamsgarage.com/gallery2/v/other/bicycles/

There was a guy selling a used Colnago Junior (22" wheels) on the local Craigslist several months ago. I think it was a ton of money, but if you considered resale value might actually be the cheapest option.

WHOA... I just figured out... that web site is actually run by the guy who was selling the Colnago...

go to his other website at http://www.dieselhead.net/contact.html -- send him an email about little bikes.

Schwinn Mini Collegiate 20" wheels 7-spd. $210

Excellent bbattle. At least there is someone still making one. On the other hand that geometry looks like a crank forward bike (or whatever they call them). The chainstays are monstrously long and the head tube is pretty shallow. Again, at least there is one option for one.

On another note. I finally measure our Giant MTX 125. It came in at 20lbs. Only mods are narrow high pressure tires and removal of a water bottle and cage. It is not as light as I would like but it is better than some of the weights people have posted. I am okay with that. It could be lighter as can be seen by the BMX rides but acceptable.

There was a guy selling a used Colnago Junior (22" wheels) on the local Craigslist several months ago. I think it was a ton of money, but if you considered resale value might actually be the cheapest option.

WHOA... I just figured out... that web site is actually run by the guy who was selling the Colnago...


WHOA.... I'd be giving that little Colnago more than a once over, photo's not real big but welds and decals look a bit too cheap for what its supposed to be.

Just for reference, here's (http://bushlibrary.tamu.edu/photos/images/HS584.jpg) a kid on his 9th birthday riding his new three speed with 26" (ISO590) wheels.

TCS

My little guy turned 7 a week ago. Perhaps the smartest thing is to get a really lightweight single speed and let him ride it. I can always convert it to a geared bike later.
It's really straighforward to add internal gears to a single speed. The three speeds, the SRAM five speed and the Sturmey 8 are available in N.A. with compatable OLDs.

My nephew bridged through these years on a flat bar three speed BMX racer until he was tall enough for the smallest road bikes.

TCS

Here we go. Something like this (http://www.redlinebicycles.com/bmxracing/bikes/images/proline/hi-rez/PL-Micro-Mini-Wht.jpg) with a front brake and three or five speed hub. Easily under 20#.

HTH,
TCS

There's the nifty Electra Townie 7D 20".

http://www.electrabike.com/kids/

You should know it's a crank forward, if you have any concerns that might twist the kid and he'll grow up riding recumbents.

HTH,
TCS

WHOA.... I'd be giving that little Colnago more than a once over, photo's not real big but welds and decals look a bit too cheap for what its supposed to be.

The picture on the website looks like a stock photo from somewhere. (like here: http://www.chicagolandbicycle.com/colnago_juniors_bicycle.htm )

Here's another pic (a real one) of a Colnago Junior:

http://www.pbase.com/sdukes/image/5598245

People keep suggesting putting gears on BMX race bikes, has anyone seen this done?
The rear spacing is 110 mm at most on the little bike and I am pretty sure that most geared hubs, even internally geared are 125mm and up even if you leave out spacers on the axle, most are 135.
The frames are rigid aluminum so can not safely be spread 15 mm. You may be able to spread a chromoly frame enough to make this work but it seems a little looney to try.

People keep suggesting putting gears on BMX race bikes, has anyone seen this done?
I've done it.


The rear spacing is 110 mm at most on the little bike and I am pretty sure that most geared hubs, even internally geared are 125mm and up even if you leave out spacers on the axle, most are 135.
I've got a brand new Sturmey Archer SRF3 in my hands and it measures 117mm OLD with a 6mm thick nut on the left end of the axle and a 4mm nut on the right. Two 3mm nuts and it's at 113mm. You think the welds will crack on the frame if the stays are spread 1.5mm each?

TCS

Interesting, I had no idea they still made internally geared hubs that narrow, I recall some ancient ones that seemed pretty narrow but the more recent ones all struck me as quite wide. It would be interesting to see a BMX race bike built this way if you have any pics.

The picture on the website looks like a stock photo from somewhere. (like here: http://www.chicagolandbicycle.com/colnago_juniors_bicycle.htm )

Here's another pic (a real one) of a Colnago Junior:

http://www.pbase.com/sdukes/image/5598245


I agree with the real one (2nd link) the quality of materials and finish standout but if I saw that yellow thing with its differing welds and small dia. tubes on cheabay I'd be thinking knockoff.

A bit suprised Colnago would produce that bike.

From my experience of coaching kids from 4+, they don't (with a v. few exceptions) really begin to get hold of using gears correctly until 8-10, so if he's using them correctly he's doing very well.

Even so, a single speed non-suspension bike of whatever sort may well be a good buy as long as your regular route isn't to heavy.

And as other posters have said, it will teach him to spin.

Altho' if you want to go green with envy, I remember an interview with the great Nicole Cook in which she described a visit to the Colnago factory where there were lines of road bikes from 16" wheels upwards. You might possibly strike lucky on your state lottery if you have one.

I'd also recommend Islabikes in spite of the expense - not been one critical review of allthose I've read and a number of the kids at my Saturday club are delighted with them.