General Cycling Discussion - Lance's bike...the shifter mostly

I was looking through a magazine that had a few random photos of Lance on his bike(really???:D ), anyway, I noticed that he has a downtube shifter for his front derailleur. The left brake lever is just a brake, no shifter. The rear/right brake/shifter is normal.

Has anyone else noticed this?... or is it common knowledge? Does anyone know why his bike is set up this way?

yeah i was curious about this too... i asked my friend and he told me that's just for his front derailleur shifter. he does it for weight savings in the mountain stages. basically, you rarely use the big chainring when you're climbing, and you rarely use the small chainring when you're descending. so basically he just uses the shifter once - when he reaches the top of the mountain.

i asked my friend if this was common practice and he said no... it's just a lance thing.

Many of the pros are doing this. It's more psychological than anything, but it gets the job done.

That was pretty common with the earlier versions of STI, which were heavier and which did not allow the front derailer to be trimmed.

delirou5 is right- the downtube shifter is just for the front derailleur and ONLY on Lance's mountain climbing bike. All other stages and road races, he has full STI. It is a weight saving measure and you don't shift the chainrings on a big. Beloki and some others use a climbing only bike and usually switch bikes mid-race before the big climbs.

I think his climbing bike also uses a lighter carbon fiber than the normal Trek he otherwise uses. Not sure why he weight-weenies the STI but then uses a alloy steerer tube in the fork, but there you have it. Maybe he goes full carbon on the climbing bike.

Anyway, I think it's more of a psychological thing for the competition to see he has something "special". Like his TT helmet that he unveiled JUST at the start of the prolouge of the 02 TDF. Psych out the competition.

I found this in cyclingnews.com:

Why does Lance ride a climbing bike with a downtube shifter on it?

Riders such as Lance Armstrong and Joseba Beloki choose a bike with a downtube shifter for two reasons. The first is to shave another 100 grams or so of weight in comparison to their STI or Ergo lever; the second reason is that during a mountain stage, the riders are constantly moving from the small to the large chainwheel and then back again, and sometimes the front derailleur, if not adjusted correctly, will rub against the chain - or in some instances, switching down to the small chainring will cause the chain to come off. The "manual" operation of the front derailleur allows for fine tune adjustment without the potential for these problems to arise.

Oh man, weight savings?! The freakin' shifter has got to be like .004g. Would that really make a difference?

If weight makes that much of a difference I'll start training harder and donating organs (and just to honor Lance I'll start with my balls).

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Bigwheel has the right idea. As I have said many times before, indexed shifting of the front derailleur is a stupid concept. One needs to be able to trim the cage position (one benefit of Ergo over STI), and one needs to be able to control the motion of the chain to avoid throwing it past the rings.

john E: you are dead on.... and if it didn't look stupid, i think i would much rather have that ability to fine tune the front derailleur.

my rant about brake lever/shifters (mostly about STIs):

brakelever/shifters are stupid in general, ESPECIALLY the shimano STIs. you can only shift to harder gears one. gear. at. a. time in the rear, and to shift to an easier gear in the rear the whole brake lever moves, (at least on the new 105s that i have). ridiculous. plus the $150 price tag for the components is pretty stupid too. like, "oh no, i broke some insanely delicate, yet unservicable part on my bike, time to shell out another assload of money that i don't have." crappy, horrible engineering that just makes more money for $himano.

i wish i had gone with campy components on my road bike, but i didn't have campy money, plus there wasn't a campy group that came in all black, like the 105 group. but at least the campy brake lever/shifters actually look like normal brake levers (the newer carbon record ones anyway).

oh YEAH! the other gripe i have about the shimano STIs is that everyone spends so much time trying to make their bikes more aerodynamic or whatever, so they came up with better cable routing for brake cables, the shimano introduces STIs and they still have the same routing for the brakes, but the shifter cables stick out the sides of the hoods! what the hell is the point in that!? i run bullhorns on my road bike, with 105 STIs, and the brake cable routing isn't compatible with the angle of the bullhorns, so i just have all four cables sticking out...not like it makes a difference aerodynamically, but still...

i'd much rather have downtube shifters than STIs, and actually when i had downtube shifters on my old bike, i would always keep the rear shifter set for friction shifting instead of index. the index would always miss gears, then i adjusted the derailluer and it worked fine again, just in time for me to sell the bike. DT shifters just feel better, cleaner, more active than STIs. as soon as i can find the right brake levers, i'm switching to dura-ace 9-speed DT shifters.

sorry about that...

DUDE, YOUR POST JUST TELLS ME YOU ARE A POOR CYCLIST!


brakelever/shifters are stupid in general, ESPECIALLY the shimano STIs. you can only shift to harder gears one. gear. at. a. time in the rear, and to shift to an easier gear in the rear the whole brake lever moves, (at least on the new 105s that i have). ridiculous.

SHIFTING TO HARDER GEARS IS EASY..PAKPAKPAK 3 GEARS UP! PAKPAKPAKPAKPAKPAK 6 GEARS UP! YOUMUST BE ONE LAZY DUDE IF YOU WANT ONE SHIFT TO TAKE YOU UP SEVERAL GEARS UP. HOW STRONG ARE YOU ANYWAY?

AND WHAT'S UP WITH THE RANT ON THE "WHOLE BRAKE LEVER MOVES"???? DO YOU HAVE GIRLY HANDS?????



plus the $150 price tag for the components is pretty stupid too. like, "oh no, i broke some insanely delicate, yet unservicable part on my bike, time to shell out another assload of money that i don't have." crappy, horrible engineering that just makes more money for $himano.

WHAT DID YOU BREAK??? I'VE CRASHED MY BIKE NUMEROUS TIMES AND MY STIS HAVE HIT TEH PAVEMENT HEAD ON ALL THOSE TIMES...AND THEY STILL WORK PERFECTLY UP TILL NOW! 3 YEARS OLD!

i wish i had gone with campy components on my road bike, but i didn't have campy money, plus there wasn't a campy group that came in all black, like the 105 group. but at least the campy brake lever/shifters actually look like normal brake levers (the newer carbon record ones anyway).

YOU SOUND SILLY CHOOSING LOOKS OVER PERFORMANCE. GET CAMPY IF SHIMANO PISSES YOU OFF.


oh YEAH! the other gripe i have about the shimano STIs is that everyone spends so much time trying to make their bikes more aerodynamic or whatever, so they came up with better cable routing for brake cables, the shimano introduces STIs and they still have the same routing for the brakes, but the shifter cables stick out the sides of the hoods! what the hell is the point in that!? i run bullhorns on my road bike, with 105 STIs, and the brake cable routing isn't compatible with the angle of the bullhorns, so i just have all four cables sticking out...not like it makes a difference aerodynamically, but still...


SHIMANO STIS WERE NOT MADE FOR BULLHORNS! USE DIA COMPE BRAKE LEVERS (CHEAPOS) AND BAR END SHIFTERS. GEEZ!

i'd much rather have downtube shifters than STIs, and actually when i had downtube shifters on my old bike, i would always keep the rear shifter set for friction shifting instead of index. the index would always miss gears, then i adjusted the derailluer and it worked fine again, just in time for me to sell the bike. DT shifters just feel better, cleaner, more active than STIs. as soon as i can find the right brake levers, i'm switching to dura-ace 9-speed DT shifters.

IF YOU'D RATHER HAVE DT SHIFTERS..WHY THEN ARE YOU PLANNIN TO BUY DA STIS???? GIMME A BREAK.

altwegg, take it easy...:D :D :D :D :D


Anyway, with STI's you can just click it a few times(depending on how many cogs you want to jump from) and you're there.. You can also go to the bigger cogs 2-3 at a time(correct me if i'm wrong:confused:)...

STI levers are pretty strong.. So don't worry.. Unless you really get into a nasty crash, they will last until your next upgrade..:D

I have been using DT shifters too.. Back in the late80s/early-late 90's.. I can relate.. DT shifters are good, particularly for the front derailuer..

But STI's do have advantages.. One thing would be--you don't have to reach down the downtube to shift..

On the issue of aerobars: there are shifters designed for use of aerobars.. perhaps you need those.. Your can still use your dropbars and use those SLR levers if you like.. Or you can get TT bars with matching brake levers.:D

Perhaps a little practice might change you're mind.. The new Shimano 105 STIs are great levers..

Just for the record here, I've seen Jan Ullrich do the same thing on his climbing machine in previous years, I would expect to see it again this year also...When I really think about it, I think it's a smart idea for guys at that level, I mean they go soo fast up those HUGE mountains, why wouldn't you want to conserve all that you can??


Benjamin

"If weight makes that much of a difference I'll start training harder and donating organs (and just to honor Lance I'll start with my balls)."


dumpstervegan's comment on "Lance's Balls is in extremely poor taste, you are a complete idiot. And that would require you having to have them to begin with you little girl.

And that would require you having to have them to begin with you little girl.

and this is not in poor taste. two wrongs don't make a right.

have fun.

later

Do you make fun of blind people or mentally retarted people?

sheesh... it was just a joke people... chill out!!!

If weight makes that much of a difference I'll start training harder and donating organs (and just to honor Lance I'll start with my balls).

I think it WOULD be an honor!

Lighten up everyone, its a joke. And coming from someone with the same "disability" likened to "blindness and mental ***********" I take no offense and am glad people treat those with missing testicles as lightheartedly as dumpstervegan. It is not such a big deal, and to make it so, is more "insulting" than dumpstervegan's comments IMHO.

djbowen1, thanks (really) for sticking up for us testicular-ly challenged, but we don't need the "help".

Regards,

ehenz

Racers have been doing this for awhile--I saw Andy Hampsten's bike at a trade show about ten years ago that was so equipped. I imagine some of the reason for this combination of shifters is because of the poor fine-tuning inherent in an indexed front shifter--if you look at pro rider pictures you'll notice that fewer riders who are on Campagnolo equipment do this. Campagnolo Ergopower front controls are not indexed but have multiple ratchet stops kind of like Grip Shift mountain bike front shifters.

Originally posted by Altwegg
DUDE, YOUR POST JUST TELLS ME YOU ARE A POOR CYCLIST!

poor cyclist my ass, i ride for a living, most of the time i ride a fixed gear. my cadence on a road bike is better than most of those yellow jersey wannabe weekend warrior jerkoffs that i see out there, and i usually blow right past them...on a single speed, granted, they probably aren't in a race mentality, but still...plus most of them can't handle traffic for ****.



SHIFTING TO HARDER GEARS IS EASY..PAKPAKPAK 3 GEARS UP! PAKPAKPAKPAKPAKPAK 6 GEARS UP! YOUMUST BE ONE LAZY DUDE IF YOU WANT ONE SHIFT TO TAKE YOU UP SEVERAL GEARS UP. HOW STRONG ARE YOU ANYWAY?

i like products that WORK the way they should because i ride my bike for a living, it's a pain in the ass to futz with a stupid shifter that goes one gear at a time, when i need a least three most times. STIs are not dynamic enough in that respect. when i want to get from 18T down to 12T i don't want to have to hit the stupid shifter six god damn times, when if i had the campy shifters, or DT shifters i could do it in one motion. also, hitting the shifter six times in a row, will wear it out faster than if it was one smooth motion, but, like i said before, i like friction shifting because it lets ME move the derailluer into the sweet spot.-

and i'm not lazy, i prefer efficient shifting that fits my needs. remember that one shift used to take up several gears at a time in the old days, are you calling eddy mercx lazy?


AND WHAT'S UP WITH THE RANT ON THE "WHOLE BRAKE LEVER MOVES"???? DO YOU HAVE GIRLY HANDS?????

the brake lever moves to the side when i go to pull the brakes. yes, i have small hands, but i'm pretty sure there are a lot of people out there who have the same problem with the way shimano engineered their lever/shifters. i also have had problems (when the levers are mounted on regular drop bars) with shifting to an easier gear and having the brakes pulled because the whole stupid unit moves together.


WHAT DID YOU BREAK??? I'VE CRASHED MY BIKE NUMEROUS TIMES AND MY STIS HAVE HIT TEH PAVEMENT HEAD ON ALL THOSE TIMES...AND THEY STILL WORK PERFECTLY UP TILL NOW! 3 YEARS OLD!

maybe you're the poor cyclist here, crashing all the time. i see your point, but people who live in glass houses should not throw stones...i've crashed maybe twice on a road bike or a fixed gear, and one of those times was when a car sideswiped me.

admittedly, i have not broken anything yet, but that's because i barely ride the stupid bike anyway, partly because of the shifters, but mostly because a friend has my wheels. a good friend of mine works in a shop and about twice a month someone comes in whining "i broke my STI shifter, i broke my STI shifter what do i do!?!" and then they have to replace it.


YOU SOUND SILLY CHOOSING LOOKS OVER PERFORMANCE. GET CAMPY IF SHIMANO PISSES YOU OFF.

i spent a long time planning out what components i was going to put on this bike, comparing prices, durability, functionality, and finally, looks. i decided i wanted an all black parts group because well, it looks different from everyone else's bike, plus the bike i have is a pretty dark color already. i went with 105 because it was under the price cap that i set for myself for building up this frame. i'm not going to spend $1000+ on parts for a $300 used frame, that i'm probably not going to ride very much. i looked at a lot of reviews of STI shifters and most of them had good things to say, so i went for it. i got a pretty sweet discount at my friend's shop too, i didn't have to pay for labor for setting it up.

i was also not going settle for anything less than campy chorus if i got campy anything, and at the time i didn't have the money for it, i probably could have gotten dura-ace, but then i'd be in the same boat, wouldn't i...the main reason i decided to go with 105 is that i wasn't building the road bike thinking i'd be on it all the time, seeing as i have two track bikes set up with top of the line components. THOSE are the bikes i care about. THOSE are the bikes that i like to keep running because those are the bikes that i ride most often and depend on the most.


SHIMANO STIS WERE NOT MADE FOR BULLHORNS! USE DIA COMPE BRAKE LEVERS (CHEAPOS) AND BAR END SHIFTERS. GEEZ!

you didn't get my point. i know STIs weren't made with bullhorns in mind, i'm not ********. my point was, if they're going to go to such great lengths to make everything aero and slick looking, but then have the shifter cables come out and screw it all up, then shy bother with aero routing in the first place? and FYI, we made the aero brake cable routing work with the bullhorns that i have, but then i saw how heinous it looked with the other cables sticking out, so i said F-it. i planned from the beginning to use bullhorns, which is another reason why i went with shimano instead of campy, the campy shifters use a thumb button which would be inaccessable riding with bullhorns. also, i use bullhorns without aero bars, so if i used bar end shifters, and put them at the ends of the bullhorns, the cables would get in the way of the brak cables on the inside of the bars, also there wouldn't be an exit hole for the shifter cables unless i drilled one, and i'm not about to ruin my handlebars.


IF YOU'D RATHER HAVE DT SHIFTERS..WHY THEN ARE YOU PLANNIN TO BUY DA STIS???? GIMME A BREAK.

in case you're so thick that you didn't get this by now, i'm not PLANNIN TO BUY DA STIS!!!!! i already have them. i didn't have an opinion on them before i got them, so i decided to try them out. in my OPINION, they blow goats in functionality. next time i set up a road bike, if i actually care about it this time, i'll get campy, or i'll try to find downtube shifters and SLRs that match my scheme. sorry that i don't follow what the pros use as gospel, they ride the components they ride because they are paid to, and my guess is they get free replacements when something breaks down.

my bike looks pretty sweet, BTW, it's a dark purple steel lugged pinarello with all black components (everything 105 except the crank, which is an FSA gossamer cross crank with the 48T/38T chainrings). i got the smaller rings because i'm riding in the city, and i have to slow down a lot and i don't want to blow out my knees on a start in 53T/15T. i prefer the looks of a 53/39, but i went for what suited my purpose, and i saved a little weight too. currently the bike is sitting upside-down sans wheels because the jerkus who built them (me) didn't tension the spokes properly....oops. everything worked fine for a few weeks, then i noticed my rear wheel was in pretty bad shape, so off to the shop it went....i should have it back by the end of the week though.

oh yeah, learn how to use the quote tags. it'll increase your posts' readability by 20%.

Originally posted by Aemon_
and this is not in poor taste. two wrongs don't make a right.

have fun.

later

I think DV was making a joke.

Originally posted by OneTinSloth





i like products that WORK the way they should because i ride my bike for a living, it's a pain in the ass to futz with a stupid shifter that goes one gear at a time, when i need a least three most times. STIs are not dynamic enough in that respect. when i want to get from 18T down to 12T i don't want to have to hit the stupid shifter six god damn times, when if i had the campy shifters, or DT shifters i could do it in one motion. also, hitting the shifter six times in a row, will wear it out faster than if it was one smooth motion, but, like i said before, i like friction shifting because it lets ME move the derailluer into the sweet spot.-

and i'm not lazy, i prefer efficient shifting that fits my needs. remember that one shift used to take up several gears at a time in the old days, are you calling eddy mercx lazy?

[/b]


THEN WHY BOTHER WITH STI IF THAT'S WHAT YOU PREFER?

the brake lever moves to the side when i go to pull the brakes. yes, i have small hands, but i'm pretty sure there are a lot of people out there who have the same problem with the way shimano engineered their lever/shifters. i also have had problems (when the levers are mounted on regular drop bars) with shifting to an easier gear and having the brakes pulled because the whole stupid unit moves together.

[/b]

YOU KNOW THAT THIS HOW SHIMANOS WORK. IT'S NOT A PROBLEM FOR ME. SO KNOWING THIS, WHY DID YOU STILL GET SHIMANO??? BECAUSE IT WAS ALL BLACK????


admittedly, i have not broken anything yet, but that's because i barely ride the stupid bike anyway, partly because of the shifters, but mostly because a friend has my wheels. a good friend of mine works in a shop and about twice a month someone comes in whining "i broke my STI shifter, i broke my STI shifter what do i do!?!" and then they have to replace it.

[/b]

YOU BUILT THE BIKE...IT'S NOT THE ONE THAT'S STUPID.



i spent a long time planning out what components i was going to put on this bike, comparing prices, durability, functionality, and finally, looks. i decided i wanted an all black parts group because well, it looks different from everyone else's bike, plus the bike i have is a pretty dark color already. BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH
[/b]

IF YOU REALLY HATE HOW STIS WORK, THEN (IF YOU ARE SENSIBLE) YOU WOULD HAVE GOTTEN VELOCE WHICH IS MORE OR LESS AT THE SAME LEVEL AND PRICE POINT AS 105.

you didn't get my point. i know STIs weren't made with bullhorns in mind, i'm not ********. my point was, if they're going to go to such great lengths to make everything aero and slick looking, but then have the shifter cables come out and screw it all up, then shy bother with aero routing in the first place? and FYI, we made the aero brake cable routing BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH[/B]

BOTTOMLINE IS. YOU HAVE A BIKE THAT YOU BUILT WITH A LOT OF RESEARCH BEFOREHAND, AND NOW, YOU HATE IT.

I HOPE YOUR FRIENDS DON'T ASK YOU FOR ADVICE WHEN THEY BUY BIKE PARTS.

Isn't this an interesting thread.:D

Originally posted by Altwegg
BOTTOMLINE IS. YOU HAVE A BIKE THAT YOU BUILT WITH A LOT OF RESEARCH BEFOREHAND, AND NOW, YOU HATE IT.

I HOPE YOUR FRIENDS DON'T ASK YOU FOR ADVICE WHEN THEY BUY BIKE PARTS.

Judging from your posts your "caps lock" key is stuck/broken. Please get that fixed.

Originally posted by don d.
Isn't this an interesting thread.:D
Recess time at kindergarten...

I have three bikes, three different shifters -- downtube (front and rear), STIs and RapidFire (MTB). I like them all for what they do.

The one real advantage of STI on a road bike is being able to shift while standing on pedals. I can't do that with downtube shifters. And you can shift three gears at a time when going to a larger cog (lower gear).

STIs can be a bit finickity with cable adjustments, but at least you can do it from the seat while pedalling with the in-line adjusters. The larger size of the hood area can be uncomfortable at times, even more so for smaller hands. The bike with downtube shifters has Sora levers that are quite nice in that regard.

And just as an observation, Armstrong's time trial bike is equipped with a bar-end shifter for the rear derailleur, on the aero bars. So he's got all three types to use on his different bikes -- STI, bar-end and downtube. They all obviously do the job he wants, and that's what counts.

FWIW

R

Originally posted by Bigwheel
I found this in cyclingnews.com:

Why does Lance ride a climbing bike with a downtube shifter on it?

Riders such as Lance Armstrong and Joseba Beloki choose a bike with a downtube shifter for two reasons. The first is to shave another 100 grams or so of weight in comparison to their STI or Ergo lever; the second reason is that during a mountain stage, the riders are constantly moving from the small to the large chainwheel and then back again, and sometimes the front derailleur, if not adjusted correctly, will rub against the chain - or in some instances, switching down to the small chainring will cause the chain to come off. The "manual" operation of the front derailleur allows for fine tune adjustment without the potential for these problems to arise.

Back to the original thread, I'm not sure I buy into the above explanation by cyclingnews. First, the bikes have a minimum weight of 15.5 lbs. Is it really that hard to meet the 15.5 lb weight goal??? (maybe so...) Secondly, if a rider is constantly shifting (front or rear) I would think they'd want to keep their hands on the bars rather than reaching to the downtube all the time. ..this type of shift (on the downtube) requires the rider to be in the saddle.

I guess I could believe that it's done to save weight and to provide the adjustability of a friction shifter, but not if this includes the need for continuous shifting. That'd be a nightmare. ...know what I mean?

Other sources say that they use a DT shifter for the front ring because they don't shift the front much during big climbs.

i bought the SITs because i wanted to try them out, now i know what i needed to know. i had to actually use them for more than a half hour test ride to actually get acquainted with —and form an opinion on them.

see my previous post to see why i didn't choose campy over shimano, i listed a couple pretty good reasons there, apparently though, they whizzed right through your head, alwegg.

about shifting while standing up: the last time i did this, the chain didn't grab the cogs and i nearly went over my handlebars....it was a brand new chain and brand new cogs. i dunno, maybe i flipped the lever wrong or something...*rolls eyes* ;)

oh my god, this is the part where i actually say something good about STIs:

shifting is super smooth with the STIs, once you get them adjusted properly. i have no problem with changing gears. i wish they were more dynamic in that i wish i could adjust them to shift more than one gear at a time (going from large to small). that's my biggest problem with them. for that reason, they don't suit my needs, i had no way of knowing that they wouldn't suit my needs until i actually got to go out and put the bike through my own tests. i most likely will not buy shimano road components again, unless they refine their system. they probably won't, because shimano doesn't care what i think. shimano 105 brakes work SOOO well, oh my god, they're so smooth and responsive it's like being in heaven.

i ride a lot of different bikes. i set up most of them myself. all of the bikes i've set up myself are in perfect working order, with parts that function the way they're built to function. i pick quality parts for my projects, parts that are manufactured by respectable companies. technically, there is nothing wrong with STIs, they work the way they're built to work, and a lot of people like them...i think a lot of people would like them a lot better if they could adjust how many gears they could shift with them, buuuut i digress...

i know how to build a good bike that will turn heads, whether or not i like the way said bike functions is a different story. i don't HATE the bike...i don't HATE much of anything, i just don't like the shifters on it. the bike performs beautifully. it's just not what i'm used to.

you know, once i get my wheels back, and i get back on the bike, maybe, just maybe, i'll learn to love STIs...

jesus christ it took me almost an hour to write this post...and this is the editted version...i need to get out on my bike more...

Originally posted by Bikesick
Back to the original thread,

oh yeah, sorry about derailling this thread. i didn't mean to.

Originally posted by OneTinSloth
about shifting while standing up: the last time i did this, the chain didn't grab the cogs and i nearly went over my handlebars....it was a brand new chain and brand new cogs. i dunno, maybe i flipped the lever wrong or something

i wish i could adjust them to shift more than one gear at a time (going from large to small).

for that reason, they don't suit my needs
There is an art to shifting with STIs while standing and it's applying the same principles when sitting -- ease the pressure on the pedals to allow the chain to slacken just enough so the derailleur can move it over. Doesn't matter if its front or rear. The hard part when standing is timing the change with that eased pressure on the pedals... you still have to keep spinning the pedals.

The second point, about going large to small is the thing, I suppose, about this sort of shifting set-up. And I am not sure I can explain this well. But the system relies on gravitation and springs to get the chain to jump from larger cogs to smaller cogs. The chain literally drops down to each neighouring small cog. But the thing is, the end result is different front and rear -- on the front you go to a lower gear (smaller chainring) and on the back you go to a higher gear (smalleer cog). Built into the system is a ratchet system that enables you to wind the cable back up, dragging the derailleur so it repositions the chain over a larger cog.

That's why newbies have trouble understanding the shifter functions for front and rear. Logic says that if you push on one lever and you go from Gear 2 to Gear 3, you should be able to do the same on other lever, but instead you go from Gear 2 to Geaer 1. I gather the ratchet system is what prevents the movement over multiple cogs that you desire.

Who knows? Maybe Shimano developed its MTB shifters to make use of the strongest digit we have -- the thumb -- to do the hard work of winding the cable back up against the resistance of the springs and gravity, and thought it was a good idea to apply a similar ratchet system it to road bikes on the basis that it made shifting that much easier.

Of course, friction, bar-end and SIS-type downtube shifters overcome all this, and yes I can do very fast clean shifts with my downtube levers than I can with the STIs.

And if it didn't suit your needs... well there is nothing in this world that is everything to everyone.

" most likely will not buy shimano road components again, unless they refine their system. they probably won't, because shimano doesn't care what i think."

I agree. The status quo is excellent.
However, I don't think Shimano needs to refine much of anything. I can climb on the hoods and SHIFT, I can sprint on the drops and SHIFT too.

:)

Rowan, yeah, the ratchet system is definitely what prevents it. i understand fully what the functions do, i just don't like how they do it...maybe i'll take it all apart and "modify" it some day (THAT'S the other thing, they're not servicable!! if you make a part that does two separate things, make it serviceable so that you can take it apart and put it back together again so people like me who like to take things apart can learn how it works mechanically) when i have the money to replace a broken lever/shifter...of course by then it'll be a whole new system and the lever won't be compatible with what's on there now and won't come in black anymore. ;)

the more i talk and write about that stupid bike (it's a term of endeerment, really) the more i want my wheels back so i can ride the crap out of it! it's the only bike that i have that's capable of covering long distances comfortably, (although i need a longer stem) and i want to go see friends in the suburbs. it's only 15 miles, and i could do it on a fixie, and i've done it before, i'd just like to be able to let my mind wander a little while i coast down some hills. also i want to be able to walk once i get to where i'm going.

a little background on my road bike:

the day after i built it up i was on my way to santa fe for a little vacation and touring without my parts collection and a lot of my tools. so i rode it for a couple weeks and figured out what needed to change, then came home and never made any of the changes. and now i've been off the bike for a few weeks and i've forgotten how it felt, so i'll have to begin the whole process again. eventually it'll feel right to me...maybe i should just go buy some new ksyrium wheels instead of waiting for the friend to return my 105s...hmm...now THERE'S an idea...*maniacal laughter*