Foo - Few general questions about gas engines

I have a few questions about gas (or diesel) engines.

How many moving parts do you think a modern engine has?
How much does a typical, smallish (honda or toyota sized 2L) engine weigh?
In general, how involved is the engine removal process?

Yeah, that was pretty corny.

A four cylinder probably weighs a few hundred pounds, depending on if it's an iron or aluminum block, and how much crap is bolted to it. Add at least a hundred or so more if the transmission is still hanging off of it.

With all the cruft newer cars have, the removal process is probably somewhat complex. Of course, removing it is easier than reattaching everything. ;)

Yeah, that was pretty corny.

And a tad racist.

I believe my Civic's D16Y8 w/ tranny weighs around 400 lbs. I've swapped a D16Y7 before (an economy version of the same block) and it was quite difficult. You really need someone who knows what they're doing before attempting an engine swap.

I have a few questions about gas (or diesel) engines.

How many moving parts do you think a modern engine has?
How much does a typical, smallish (honda or toyota sized 2L) engine weigh?
In general, how involved is the engine removal process?

The engine weighs about 170 lbs for a typical D series which honda has used since the late 80's all the way to 2000.

The transmission on a typical D series is 110 lbs (I know because I had to ship one lol).

They are both cast aluminum so they are pretty light. One guy and a hand truck and its no problem to move around.

Here is a pic of the engine we took out of my brothers car for a swap. Had to bring the old one back home so it rode shotgun in my car (I removed the passenger seat).

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid210/p10cac8c625aa4688d5c3db2ce8d3a4f4/ede382df.jpg

As far as the engine removal process its really not that hard. Honda's have such a large following every single problem you can encounter has been solved already. There is really no guess work involved anymore and you don't even have to do any fabrication anymore as companies release all the parts need to put any honda engine in any other honda (or even acura) chassis.

Are you interested in swapping your car?

How many moving parts do you think a modern engine has?
Approx 350
How much does a typical, smallish (honda or toyota sized 2L) engine weigh?
450-500 Lbs with the tranny
In general, how involved is the engine removal process?
In most Front Wheel Drive cars its a PITA

I have a few questions about gas (or diesel) engines.

How many moving parts do you think a modern engine has?
How much does a typical, smallish (honda or toyota sized 2L) engine weigh?
In general, how involved is the engine removal process?

1. You have many moving parts.
2. Somewhere around 200-400lbs i would say.
3. You need to remove all mounts, remove all lines going to engine, drain coolant and oil, and remove hood.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid210/p10cac8c625aa4688d5c3db2ce8d3a4f4/ede382df.jpg
Wow. A fast right turn would have been rather disastrous that day.

The engine weighs about 170 lbs for a typical D series which honda has used since the late 80's all the way to 2000.

The transmission on a typical D series is 110 lbs (I know because I had to ship one lol).

They are both cast aluminum so they are pretty light. One guy and a hand truck and its no problem to move around.

Here is a pic of the engine we took out of my brothers car for a swap. Had to bring the old one back home so it rode shotgun in my car (I removed the passenger seat).

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid210/p10cac8c625aa4688d5c3db2ce8d3a4f4/ede382df.jpg

As far as the engine removal process its really not that hard. Honda's have such a large following every single problem you can encounter has been solved already. There is really no guess work involved anymore and you don't even have to do any fabrication anymore as companies release all the parts need to put any honda engine in any other honda (or even acura) chassis.

Are you interested in swapping your car?

"There is really no guess work involved anymore and you don't even have to do any fabrication anymore as companies release all the parts need to put any honda engine in any other honda (or even acura) chassis."


^^ I disagree. Please show me a company that fabricates mounts for 1986-1989 Honda Accords. No company makes them, there for all mounts have to be custom for these Accords.

"There is really no guess work involved anymore and you don't even have to do any fabrication anymore as companies release all the parts need to put any honda engine in any other honda (or even acura) chassis."


^^ I disagree. Please show me a company that fabricates mounts for 1986-1989 Honda Accords. No company makes them, there for all mounts have to be custom for these Accords.

Well lets put it this way. From 1988 to present everything is very very easy. When you get into the older cars that still have carbs it gets trickier because not many people own them and there not much of a demand.

Anyway im assuming the car has the stock A20 engine in it?

Since its not as common you can get mounts they will just be more expensive.

Racetek Engineering makes them to swap a B16a in along with the wire harness needed.

here is a pic of it done
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/racetek82/Accord%20LX-i%20B16/Engine/IMG_0881.jpg


Also check out

www.3geez.com

Its all about the 3rd gen accord. But yes it is much more involved then the newer hondas.

Although it is probably not worth your time/money but thats up to you.

Also I have heard you can just swap a b16 head on and get some gains but im not to sure as im not familiar with the a series engines.

if you're ever hoisting an all steel 454 pontiac powerplant and trans out of a donor car and you hear something snap - run away.

just take my word on this.

now back to our regularly scheduled thread...

An engine swap is a piece of cake!

Remove battery!
Drain engine of coolant
Disconnect all wires and harnesses
Disconnect fuel lines
Connect engine hoist to engine and pump the lever enough to have a little lift
Remove the bellhousing bolts holding the engine and tranny together
Remove motor mounts
Remove exhaust downpipe from manifold
Lift engine out of compartment.

Piece of cake!

I saw an engine come out of an Escort in about an hour. But that guy was a pro.

It took me over a day to get a motor out of an old rusty jeep. I eventually had to give a buddy of mine that owns a welding shop a call to come cut off some bolts using an arc welder. They were the hard to get to bellhousing bolts. Small motors from small cars are easy as hell though

And, is there any market for used engines?

is the engine bad?

And, is there any market for used engines?

The junk yard I like has a rule, they will never charge more than 100 bucks for any engine. Engines tend to only be valuble if they are very rare and desirable, or if they are part of a functioning car.

In other words, not really.

I saw an engine come out of an Escort in about an hour. But that guy was a pro.At old Volkswagen shows, I think it's fairly common to have Beetle engine swap contests. The good ones can do it in about 20 minutes, I think. Of course, it's just four bolts or so, the fuel line, and some electrical before you can jack up the back of the car and drop the engine out. :)

And, is there any market for used engines?

Did you mean for YOU to buy a used engine? I bought a 4.0L inline 6 cyl. for me old Jeep with 50k miles for about $600 at a junk yard. Those little motors should be easy to find but beware.....little ******** ricers tend to beat the crap out of civics and whatnot.

I saw an engine come out of an Escort in about an hour. But that guy was a pro.

Yeah, my brother and I removed a 4 cylinder engine out of a Mazada 626 in an hour, but we used a sawz-all just has much as any wrench...

Yep, beware of engines found in cars with huge spoilers or ground effects int eh junkyard. Those are signs of a possible "ricer", which usually means that engine got ran hard.

Best engines IMO come out of the cars that looked like someone's grandmother drove them....yes theengine amy need a rebuild something awful, but at least you know that the block may not have some unnoticed damage from some jacktard throwing NOS on it (my NOS rant is pretty long...basically I think only one percent of the people that talk about it should use it, the rest probably will usually end up killing their engine within the year).

3. You need to remove all mounts, remove all lines going to engine, drain coolant and oil, and remove hood.

It usually doesn't hurt to separate it from the transmission/transaxle and exhaust system too :) Also, things like the air intake plumbing, battery tray, radiator, and manifolds can often get in the way of easy removal. Depending on the car, you might be in for a lot of work.

two hundred and sixty seven....and about three hundred and fifty pounds...can be removed in about an hour.

I do believe my VW 1.6L diesel when mated to the transmission is about 350 pounds wet. (Iron block, too.)

I know the tranny itself is about 75 pounds wet.

On these, diesel swaps are rather easy... coolant lines, fuel lines, and two wires for the engine itself.

As for moving parts, depends on the engine.

Crankshaft, connecting rods, pistons, valves (at least 2 per cylinder, as many as 5 per cylinder,) camshafts (at least one, as many as four for a V engine,) possibly rocker arms (on OHV engines or engines with one camshaft and 4+ valves per cylinder,) possibly pushrods, and some more stuff.

Here's another question:
When you bring the vehicle to redline, is the high speed bad for the engine or transmission?

It depends.

First off, "redline" speeds are almost never the maximum RPM for the engine. However, some engines are designed closer to their limits than others. Generally, engines with lower redlines have less problems at redline.

For the transmission, not USUALLY bad. However, clutches can sometimes explode if overrevved.

Brian']An engine swap is a piece of cake!

Remove battery!
Drain engine of coolant
Disconnect all wires and harnesses
Disconnect fuel lines
Connect engine hoist to engine and pump the lever enough to have a little lift
Remove the bellhousing bolts holding the engine and tranny together
Remove motor mounts
Remove exhaust downpipe from manifold
Lift engine out of compartment.

Piece of cake!

Putting it back together is a slightly different story. You need to get everything back in the right place. Generally they try to make things only fit one way, but some things that aren't supposed to go together will with a little "persuasion." One of my friends just rebuilt the head on his 4-Runner. He spent hours tracing down a pair of vacuum hoses that were swapped or something like that. Electrical harnesses are doubly important to get right.

If you're going to do an engine rebuild or something similar, it's worth the $20 it costs to buy the Chilton manual for your car. You can buy these online or from most auto parts stores.

Better to get whatever the factory service manual is.

I know VW/Audi and BMW use Bentley, and Honda uses Helm...

Well lets put it this way. From 1988 to present everything is very very easy. When you get into the older cars that still have carbs it gets trickier because not many people own them and there not much of a demand.

Anyway im assuming the car has the stock A20 engine in it?

Since its not as common you can get mounts they will just be more expensive.

Racetek Engineering makes them to swap a B16a in along with the wire harness needed.

here is a pic of it done
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/racetek82/Accord%20LX-i%20B16/Engine/IMG_0881.jpg


Also check out

www.3geez.com

Its all about the 3rd gen accord. But yes it is much more involved then the newer hondas.

Although it is probably not worth your time/money but thats up to you.

Also I have heard you can just swap a b16 head on and get some gains but im not to sure as im not familiar with the a series engines.
I know that website, i am a member. I own and daily drive a 1989 Accord LX with a carb and love it. And i don't know where you got that Racetek makes the mounts, because from what i read on that forum, people cannot track down mounts from any manufacturer.

P.S That forum is 1st, 2nd, and 3rd generation Accord now.

Who knew there were so many gearheads and greasemonkeys on BF!

Who knew there were so many gearheads and greasemonkeys on BF!
Proud of it:D

Here's another question:
When you bring the vehicle to redline, is the high speed bad for the engine or transmission?
your meant to shift just before the redline. The redline is a.....suggestion from the manufacturer...a line not to be crossed. The truth is that most vehicles stop making usable power alittle before the redline, why this fixation on the redline anyway? redline...redline....dont they make a 29er now? :D

I was under the assumption that redline is the point where the car, as designed by the manufacturer, is not longer able to effectively cool the engine (heat output of combustion vs thermal conductivity of the cooling loop)....so if you run it at redline, engine failure WILL occur if given enough time.

What happens if you feed a car gatorade, cytomax, or hammergel ... :D

Bad things happen if you put sugary fluids in the tank....ever seen the movie Gremlins? :)

....usually it just plugs up the fuel filter, unless it's dense snough that it just sits at the bottom of the gas tank.

Water isn't good on stuff, either - corrosion is BAD, as is water in the combustion chamber (unless you know damn well what you're doing - water is incompressible, so it increases the compression forces in the cylinder, and can cause conrods to bend.)

The most common problem with exceeding redline is valve float. A condition in where the valve springs aren't able to keep up with the camshafts closing ramp profile and the valves don't close fully. Worst case scenario involves valve to piston contact which can be lethal to the engine.

if you're ever hoisting an all steel 454 pontiac powerplant and trans out of a donor car and you hear something snap - run away.

just take my word on this.

now back to our regularly scheduled thread...

You should always run if there's a 454 Pontiac powerplant, cause someone stole it from a Chevy!

Good catch.

I would say that valve to piston contact is ALWAYS very expensive. Even if there's no apparent damage, the valve stems have been fatigued, the valve guides are probably damaged, the lifters are probably damaged, etc., etc.

Wankel engines like the Mazda

That's an L at the end

has only 3 moving parts , IIRC

george

Bad things happen if you put sugary fluids in the tank....ever seen the movie Gremlins? :)

....usually it just plugs up the fuel filter, unless it's dense snough that it just sits at the bottom of the gas tank.
I don't know how much of that is true because Mythbusters tested that and found out that sugar doesn't have any affect on the cars performance.

That's only for a 2-rotor model.

Mazda has 3- and 4-rotor models (although, the 26B was just for racing, I believe.)

Better to get whatever the factory service manual is.

I know VW/Audi and BMW use Bentley, and Honda uses Helm...
There is absolutely no substitute for the factory service manual. I haven't bought a car for more than 10 years, but the time you save by having MUCH more accurate and detailed information is well worth the extra cost over those Chilton's and Haynes manuals.

I would say that valve to piston contact is ALWAYS very expensive. Even if there's no apparent damage, the valve stems have been fatigued, the valve guides are probably damaged, the lifters are probably damaged, etc., etc.Yeah, depending upon how much float there was, the valves may be bent and pistons damaged:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e346/DannoXYZ/AutoTech/Pistons-951interference.jpg

In a case like this, it's typically cheaper to replace the entire engine than pull out the engine and rebuild it with new pistons and valves.

Besides valve-float beyond redline, the shear mass of the pistons' mass reciprocating back and forth adds tremendous loads on the con-rods. I've heard figures in the range of 7000-8000lb on the rods. Rod-failures are usually caused by high-RPM operation.

Heck, I wasn't even thinking about the pistons - I'm used to VW TDIs, where piston damage from interference doesn't really affect how well the thing runs after repairs.

Of course, then again, I haven't heard of valve float on any TDIs, either. ;)

(The valve springs in the TDIs are good for 7000+ RPMs, as they're (IIRC) the same part as used in the 8-valve gasoline engines. TDIs max out at 5100 RPMs.