Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Wheel Build.... Decisions decisions.

I am getting ready to hopefully have a wheelset built up at my local lbs. I am wondering if the $550 it would cost to lace some deep v's to a phil wood flip flop rear and phil wood front hub with dt swiss competition spokes is worth it or if i should just buy stock deep v's from iro, ebay, etc. Gimme some feedback before I spend the rent money.

Fly Bike Shop was selling Deep Vs with formulas for $225 shipped, I think that is the best bet.

Deep V + formula + Phil-grade bearings + $300 = Phil + Deep V. I like $300 more than I like the Phil logo, but that's just me, and I'm cheap.

how do the formulas compare with the phil wood stuff?

Both are precision-machined fancy aluminum cylinders with pressed-in cartridge bearings and hardened steel axles. Formulas have a slight problem with the locknuts being so hard they're brittle, but you can replace then for a few $ if you crack them, and when they do go you don't fall down or anything, the pieces stay locked in place by the tension on the axle. Phils have a hex key axle system that is kind of nice, but they're also rather heavy and take a less common lockring. Mainly, phils have a nicer finish and a longer pedigree.

I will bring this to the attention of the wrenches at the lbs. To be honest though they are confused by the amount of money I am putting into what was originally a $100 bike.

Deep V + formula + Phil-grade bearings + $300 = Phil + Deep V. I like $300 more than I like the Phil logo, but that's just me, and I'm cheap.

Exactly. Buying Phils because of the perceived quality is
generally a false economy, because the same effective
hub can be had for a fraction of the price. Most people
tell themselves that's why they bought Phils, but the truth
is that they just wanted blingy hubs, which is fine.

Juuuuussst like a Chris King headset.

Exactly. Buying Phils because of the perceived quality is
generally a false economy, because the same effective
hub can be had for a fraction of the price. Most people
tell themselves that's why they bought Phils, but the truth
is that they just wanted blingy hubs, which is fine.

Fair enough, but I found my Phil/Open Pro wheels on CL for $250. It was kind of a no-brainer.

Juuuuussst like a Chris King headset.

$60 slightly used on CL.

Exactly. Buying Phils because of the perceived quality is
generally a false economy, because the same effective
hub can be had for a fraction of the price. Most people
tell themselves that's why they bought Phils, but the truth
is that they just wanted blingy hubs, which is fine.

Another personal opinion masquerading as credible information.

I had a set of Deep V's laced to Paul's recently for waaaay to much money and while they are super nice wheels I may sell them. I was getting slippage the other day and almost had a heart attack because I though I may have stripped my hub. I am totally paranoid about messing them up and am using a torque wrench religiously. And I am totally paranoid about them getting stolen which is influencing where I ride to, and where I lock up. Surlys or Formula's or whatever would be a ton cheaper and the performance difference would be minimal if any at all. I vote for cheaper hubs.

With the money I save on the hubs I can finally afford that slightly used chris king headset! So formulas? What should I have the LBS order instead of the phil wood's?

Another personal opinion masquerading as credible information.

Certainly my conjecture about wanting "blingy hubs" was personal
opinion, but that obviously was not meant to be taken as "credible
information." Anyone who interpreted it that was is just... stupid.

As for the hubs, what part of that is opinion?

Maybe I need some bling if I want to live up to my sig...

Exactly. Buying Phils because of the perceived quality is
generally a false economy, because the same effective
hub can be had for a fraction of the price. Most people
tell themselves that's why they bought Phils, but the truth
is that they just wanted blingy hubs, which is fine.


yes, phil hubs are pretty, and :
- you can find them fixed/fixed easily, which is not true for Formula/deep V's found on ebay.
- their lockring reduces chance to strip hubs as they are easier to tighten IMO
- you can probably save a few $ if you get them at thebikebiz ($450 w/o shipping)
- life is short, so if you have the $s, don't think too much and go for them : they are really nice.

Fair enough, but I found my Phil/Open Pro wheels on CL for $250. It was kind of a no-brainer.

Of course, but an eBay deal hardly invalidates my argument.
I won a pair of "Durace" brand track hubs for $50-something
about a year ago, but I couldn't possibly claim that means
means Dura Ace hubs are a better value than Formula.

Nancy Grace doesn't **** puppies anymore due to a copyright claim.

youre doing the nishiki conversion right? why would you put a 550 dollar wheelset on a 75 dollar road bike?

get these (http://shop.greatdealsonbikes.com/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=GDOB&Product_Code=TR03&Category_Code=TR)

yes, phil hubs are pretty, and :
- you can find them fixed/fixed easily, which is not true for Formula/deep V's found on ebay.
- their lockring reduces chance to strip hubs as they are easier to tighten IMO
- you can probably save a few $ if you get them at thebikebiz ($450 w/o shipping)
- life is short, so if you have the $s, don't think too much and go for them : they are really nice.

phil hubs are not that pretty and :
-fixed/fixed formula hubs are everywhere
-im sure tightening lockrings is the same on both hubs
-thats still ridiculously expensive
-do something more productive with the money : they aren't that nice

youre doing the nishiki conversion right? why would you put a 400 dollar wheelseat on a 75 dollar road bike?

get these (http://shop.greatdealsonbikes.com/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=GDOB&Product_Code=TR03&Category_Code=TR)


I have big plans for that little bike. Also, I am pretty sure the arraya/ weinmann combo I have on there now are better than those sun rims. I also don't sell any of my parts so if I wanna learn my way around the conversion thing with the nishiki and transfer my bling to a nicer frame i'll have just one more rideable bike.

p.s. update on the build power grips and flip and chops <3

I couldn't possibly claim that means
means Dura Ace hubs are a better value than Formula.

For most people no, but it depends on the intended use.

Nancy Grace doesn't **** puppies anymore due to a copyright claim.

Back in action http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-JgTnR2jkk

As for the hubs, what part of that is opinion?

Unless you can present factual evidence, it's just that.

Sorry you couldn't afford them.

$60 slightly used on CL.

Why is it that someone always has to chime in about how cheap they got a CK headset when someone says what crap value they are.

Some people will spend $200 to shave 100 grams off their wheelset. What if you could save $200, AND shave 100 grams?

Buy the Formulas.

Unless you can present factual evidence, it's just that.

Evidence? This kind of thing hardly warrants "evidence," but
if the dozens of people who say with experience "Phil bearings
in Formula hubs provide effectively the same performance,"
doesn't do it for you, then what does? Do you want a god
damn lab report?


Sorry you couldn't afford them.

I knew it was going to come down to this. What a stupid and
petulant thing to say. Grow the **** up.

Oh, and I'm sorry you wasted your money on trendy hubs.

Oh, and I'm sorry you wasted your money on trendy hubs.

No, trendy is faux-phils cause you can't afford the real thing.

Like I said, petulant.

IM SOLD! formulas it is. beer money>Phils

Evidence? This kind of thing hardly warrants "evidence," but
if the dozens of people who say with experience "Phil bearings
in Formula hubs provide effectively the same performance,"
doesn't do it for you, then what does? Do you want a god
damn lab report?



I knew it was going to come down to this. What a stupid and
petulant thing to say. Grow the **** up.

Oh, and I'm sorry you wasted your money on trendy hubs.
formula hubs dont come with a lifetime warranty.
and chris king headsets also come with a ten year warranty.
so... if you strip your phil hub you get a new one.

yes, part of the money you drop is spent on a name, but that can be said about most components, frames, cars, clothes, watches, furniture, computers, and the list goes on.

I wouldn't be buying phil hubs to be trendy because to be honest no one in this ****ty town has any idea what the hell I am doing with this bike anyway. If the quality is top notch and the warranty will allow me to replace the hubs if I have any problems then why does it make more sense for me to have formulas and beer money. I appreciate the input and from what I can tell it seems like for the most part you get what you pay for. I still don't know what hubs I am getting but I can say for sure that it isn't because I am impressing anyone that will actually see them in person. Also, why do inquery threads always get derailed the minute some two people that aren't the OP have a small difference of opinion? Thanks for your help though I appreciate the advice I hope that regardless I will have a fast new wheelset in the near future.

Get the cheaper ones. Or ill sell you a set of black machined deep v's laced to Paul's. Maybe. :)

There is nothing wrong with formula hubs. Just because Phils have a warranty doesnt mean the formula would explode.

I was just saying that that is a reason for the price increase, that and a name.

But I'm also not discouraging you from getting Phils.

too bad I want silver hubs with silver spokes to a white rim...

Deep V is too heavy IMO. I would get a pair of Open Pro/formulas I think you can get those in the 275-300$ I saw them on-line at some store. I wish I could remember. Phil Wood hubs are nice and pretty machined. But if you are going to blow good hard earned cash on phill components get a Phil bottom bracket. They are where its at for a lifetime part.

i have a deep-v/phil wheelset and they are great. its possible
that the formulas w/phil bearing would roll in a similar fashion,
but as stated before, i think the extra cash for the phils goes into
things like waranty and quality of material and craftsmanship.

people tend to forget that some of the extra costs go into the hubs
being manufatured in the u.s.. i don't live in the states anymore, but
i still would rather spend money on a product which is made in
california than a product made in ...taiwan or where ever formula
hubs are made.

i also agree that there are better rims on the market, but i haven't
had any problems with the deep-v

This for me is about form and function which might seem misguided to some people but this is the first bike I have been able to have some true input on. The BB suggestion is a good one but this wheelset is not going to be my last purchase so I will keep that in mind.

There is nothing wrong with formula hubs. Just because Phils have a warranty doesnt mean the formula would explode.

I was just saying that that is a reason for the price increase, that and a name.

But I'm also not discouraging you from getting Phils.

One can argue the Honda and the Acura are the same. But they're not. Same difference.

formula hubs dont come with a lifetime warranty.
and chris king headsets also come with a ten year warranty.
so... if you strip your phil hub you get a new one.


If formulas cost 5 times less then Phils..if your formula hubs exploded or stripped 3 times (never going to happen), and you bought new ones you'd still be saving with the formulas.

If formulas cost 5 times less then Phils..if your formula hubs exploded or stripped 3 times (never going to happen), and you bought new ones you'd still be saving with the formulas.

yea, that's a better way to look at it. 'hmm, i'd like to buy parts that might fail,
concidering that i can just buy the part over and over again. this is much
better than buy one part which has a better chance of not failing only once;
conserving on resources like energy and raw materials.'*

*(this comment in no way contains factual critque concerning the quality of formula's hubs nor its business practices.)

yea, that's a better way to look at it. 'hmm, i'd like to buy parts that might fail,
concidering that i can just buy the part over and over again. this is much
better than buy one part which has a better chance of not failing only once;
conserving on resources like energy and raw materials.'*

*(this comment in no way contains factual critque concerning the quality of formula's hubs nor its business practices.)

That's totally illogical. The quality is generally the same,
and if you manage to strip either, then you've wasted some
measure of natural resources when you replace it.

youre doing the nishiki conversion right? why would you put a 550 dollar wheelset on a 75 dollar road bike?

get these (http://shop.greatdealsonbikes.com/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=GDOB&Product_Code=TR03&Category_Code=TR)

hell yeah.
those sun's are way better looking than deepV's.

yea, that's a better way to look at it. 'hmm, i'd like to buy parts that might fail,
concidering that i can just buy the part over and over again. this is much
better than buy one part which has a better chance of not failing only once;
conserving on resources like energy and raw materials.'*

*(this comment in no way contains factual critque concerning the quality of formula's hubs nor its business practices.)

Your missing the point...the formulas and phils are basically equal in durability and funtionality..perhaps different by a tiny tiny bit. The point is, given nearly equal durability and functionality, the warranty of phils does not make them the better deal. Neither are likely to fail and given the cost differential, the formulas are a far better bargain even without a warrantee.
No ones mentioned Surly hubs...they offer a warrantee of some sort, do they not?

formula hubs dont come with a lifetime warranty.
and chris king headsets also come with a ten year warranty.
so... if you strip your phil hub you get a new one.

yes, part of the money you drop is spent on a name, but that can be said about most components, frames, cars, clothes, watches, furniture, computers, and the list goes on.

Aren't you the one who claims to owe about $90K in student loans? It's like the Stockholm Syndrome!

Originally Posted by drewcifer
youre doing the nishiki conversion right? why would you put a 550 dollar wheelset on a 75 dollar road bike?

get these


hell yeah.
those sun's are way better looking than deepV's.


eye of the beholder

Why would anyone need high performance hubs for everyday street riding? For racing I can understand forking over the dough, but for riding in the city you're not going to notice much of a difference if any. And yes, I've ridden on high-wheelsets before. My everyday bike has Formulas and they are just fine.

yes yes yes, there isn't a world of difference between phil
and formula. they both make hubs and both hubs spin on
sealed bearings ...but

i think it's funny, that no one touched on my comment about
where the hubs are produced. i guess such things just really
aren't important to most individuals.

yes yes yes, there isn't a world of difference between phil
and formula. they both make hubs and both hubs spin on
sealed bearings ...but

i think it's funny, that no one touched on my comment about
where the hubs are produced. i guess such things just really
aren't important to most individuals.
For those of us without a Swiss salary the 5x more that the Phil costs makes a huge difference. And it's not just labor costs which make the price higher, it's also the fact that you are buying a boutique product.

BTW, where do you think your Soma Rush was made?

For those of us without a Swiss salary the 5x more that the Phil costs makes a huge difference. And it's not just labor costs which make the price higher, it's also the fact that you are buying a boutique product.

BTW, where do you think your Soma Rush was made?

i wish i had a swiss salary, i'm just studying here racking up debt...

actually, i was waiting for someone to call me on my taiwanese made
soma rush frame …totally busted, i'm such a hypocrite.