Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - To Ipod or not to Ipod, that is the question!

As I have mentioned, anyone who would argue that operating audio equipment while riding is already brain-damaged

So you're brain damaged. What's new?

A few of you have mentioned vehicles as being the danger we have to watch out for if/when we wear ear buds and listen to music. That may be the case some of the time, but when I'm riding in the middle of the night, vehicles aren't my biggest worry.

Much greater worries are the deer and dogs. Deer and dogs don't have headlights and they tend to blend quite well in the forests, especially at night. Deer have this habit of suddenly running out onto the road right in front of you, and dogs have this habit of sneaking up on you and suddenly barking ... then pursuing.

If I were to wear earbuds and listen to music at night, I would miss the faint crunching noises the deer make moments before they appear directly in front of me. And I would miss the tell-tale "clink" of the dog collar which I can (and have many times) heard while the dog is still about 30 metres off.

You guys are too much.

Listening for deer, the clinking of a dog's collar.

No wonder <1% of Americans ride to work.....it SOOOO dangerous.

Im gonna take it a step further and wear hearing aids. Sure I can hear fine now but why risk it there might be a deer in the next county taking a dump and I want to hear that.

;)

It sounds like there is a lot of over generalizing going on here, I just bought my first mp3 player with the intention of using it on my next ride. If I do stick with it, it will be only when conditions are safe to do so, when I'm riding a long distance on roads that are not busy and have good visibility and space. That means I won't be using it at night or on rural Irish roads or on my daily commute to work, only when I don't have to rely on my ears (and even then I should be able to hear a oncomming cars). Not everything has a yes or no answer, just be smart about it.

Listening for deer, the clinking of a dog's collar.

No wonder <1% of Americans ride to work.....it SOOOO dangerous.
I recommend you stop ascribing false assumptions to the people with whom you disagree. It only sabotages your own credibility.

It is very clear that long distance riders do not regard cycling as an inherently dangerous or risky activity. Why would you ride a bike for 8 or 12 or 24 or 36 hours in a row if you believed that it was a life-threatening activity? I can't imagine why an LD rider would even consider operating a vehicle while sleep-deprived if they thought it was "dangerous by default."

We are simply pointing out how blocking your hearing and distracting yourself has a few risks -- even in the bucolic countryside -- that are not usually worth the alleged benefits.

As I have mentioned, anyone who would argue that operating audio equipment while riding is already brain-damaged

Very interesting. If you don't mind me asking, which medical journal did you get this from?

I've done a little riding with my ipod, but again, it's just one more thing in a jersey pocket and too much hassle for the likes of me. Then again i'm never out for more than a couple hours at a time.

You guys are too much.

Listening for deer, the clinking of a dog's collar.

No wonder <1% of Americans ride to work.....it SOOOO dangerous.

Im gonna take it a step further and wear hearing aids. Sure I can hear fine now but why risk it there might be a deer in the next county taking a dump and I want to hear that.

;)

You might take a less derisive tone. It doesn't establish any credibility, nor is it persuasive. In fact, it makes you sound like someone who's done very little night riding, never almost been hit by a deer, and never been attacked by dogs while riding. Not many serious long-distance riders would fit into that category.

So how many miles did you ride last year? How many miles on brevets? What's your RUSA number so we can look up your RUSA/ACP ride totals? How many miles commuting?

You guys are too much.

Listening for deer, the clinking of a dog's collar.

No wonder <1% of Americans ride to work.....it SOOOO dangerous.

Im gonna take it a step further and wear hearing aids. Sure I can hear fine now but why risk it there might be a deer in the next county taking a dump and I want to hear that.

;)


this is the LD forum, not the road, SS, or advocacy forum.
we tend to speak and discuss a bit more constructivley here.

sorry,

I will take my non brevet riding butt elsewhere. :eek:

For the record I ride every day and every night since I am car free.

My longest ride is 150 miles and no I do not know how many "K" that is and I have never done a brevet. In fact I did not even know what a brevet was until 30 seconds ago when I looked it up.

In the ozarks we would just call that a "long ride." We are simple folks here.

see ya,

It's not that you aren't a randonneur. It's that you've been kind of rude. As far as I'm concerned you're welcome to stay, but snarky posts will get you short replies, as we're mostly grow-ups here. :)

I saw a pair of phones in Popular Scinece that are basically small speakers you mount to your helmet. Ive never tried them. I used to cycle with the supplied ipod earbuds (didn't fit right, thus allowing me to hear the outside world) but, I kinda grew out of that. I'd rather be able to hear what's going on around me.

I guess I'm sorry for not being sorry about wearing earphones.
Yes I love the sound of the bike on the road,
-but I also love the sounds of a Bela Fleck solo- or a Jimmy Page riff!
Cycling if a form of freedom to me and as long as you're responsible, you should feel free to enhance your ride as you see fit.

I recommend you stop ascribing false assumptions to the people with whom you disagree. It only sabotages your own credibility.

It is very clear that long distance riders do not regard cycling as an inherently dangerous or risky activity. Why would you ride a bike for 8 or 12 or 24 or 36 hours in a row if you believed that it was a life-threatening activity? I can't imagine why an LD rider would even consider operating a vehicle while sleep-deprived if they thought it was "dangerous by default."

We are simply pointing out how blocking your hearing and distracting yourself has a few risks -- even in the bucolic countryside -- that are not usually worth the alleged benefits.

"The Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) estimates that over 500,000 persons suffer bicycle-related injuries serious enough to require hospital emergency room treatment each year. "

http://www.momsteam.com/alpha/sports/cycling/risks_types_bicycling_injuries.shtml

It really doesn't matter how you "regard" cycling, I think it is foolish to ignore the fact that there are risks associated with cycling, I do not understand how you could reasonably assert otherwise. Read the first line of your post again, maybe you could take your own advice.

As to the “alleged” benefits of an Ipod. If I turn it on and music comes out I have accrued the benefit I seek. What’s alleged about that?

If you don’t like it don’t wear it, nobody’s forcing you. Each to their own. It seems that is the attitude of the “I use Ipods sometimes” group. The “I hate Ipods.” Group will now attempt to shout me down with their self-righteous indignation because I pointed out that Bacciagalupes’ post was unreasonable.

It's not that you aren't a randonneur. It's that you've been kind of rude. As far as I'm concerned you're welcome to stay, but snarky posts will get you short replies, as we're mostly grow-ups here. :)

Well gee there Six, where were you when...
"As a bonus - YOU WIN THE "RICHARD CRANIUM" AWARD, for posting the most asinine comment to the bike forums for June, 2007."

Hummm, strangely mute for one so quick to call someone down for being "kind of rude." Oh but then you agreed with Richard, so that was OK. If your not going to try to have an even hand maybe those comments would be better left unsaid. You ran that guy right off this forum, because you didn't agree with him, yeah, pretty adult there.

I think it is foolish to ignore the fact that there are risks associated with cycling, I do not understand how you could reasonably assert otherwise.
Walking across the street carries a degree of risk (especially in New York, which has a high pedestrian death rate). Eating Pop-Tarts has a degree of risk. Sitting on your couch, day after day, has a degree of risk, as inactivity will increase your chance of heart disease.

As for cycling, less than 800 people in the US are killed in a typical year while riding a bicycle. More than seven times more people die from non-steroidal drug (e.g. asprin) usage. So if 2,403,351 Americans died in 2002, (http://www.the-eggman.com/writings/death_stats.html) about 0.0003% of that is attributable to cycling. (It's also rather small compared to the 43,000 or so annual motor vehicle deaths.)

And to whatever extent the exercise you get from cycling counteracts one of the more common causes of death (notably heart disease, ~35-40% of annual fatalities) cycling is most likely in the "plus" column.

So, I'm thinking, cycling is a reasonably safe activity. (Assuming you obey traffic laws. Which just happen to include injunctions against wearing headphones, by the way.)

Also, I find it slightly amusing that you play up the dangers of cycling, and then advocate a practice that introduces additional risks to said activity....



As to the “alleged” benefits of an Ipod. If I turn it on and music comes out I have accrued the benefit I seek. What’s alleged about that?
Some people believe that hearing music produces better cycling performance, a claim for which I have seen zero evidence, nor is there any scientific or objective reason to believe that is the case. If there was, the Road Race forum would be loaded with posts contending that listening to Anthrax boosts power output by 4 watts and Celine Dion sucks out 10.



Read the first line of your post again, maybe you could take your own advice.
I'm afraid you get a "D-" for reading comprehension. Gosmsgo was saying that anyone who points the risks associated with using earbuds believes that "cycling is highly dangerous;" but this is clearly not the case. That particular claim is a common form of fallacious thinking used by VC advocates, and I'm calling him on it.

Since I do not appear to be indulging in false choices, misattributions of positions or other fallacious procedures, I do in fact seem to be "taking my own advice." ;)



If you don’t like it don’t wear it, nobody’s forcing you.
I see nothing wrong with attempting to convince someone to abandon a type of behavior where in many (albeit not all) cases the risks strongly outweigh the benefits.

And if you don't like reading those type of posts, you don't have to read them, no one's forcing you. :D

Hi this is Todd,
you must E-mail me about the most amazing sounding external bike mounted speaker system that is just now availible in the USA. This is not a joke. E- mail me at :
bosie@comcast.net for all the bells /whisles

p.s I have done a qualty control check on this system for about a month- AMAZING!

Walking across the street carries a degree of risk (especially in New York, which has a high pedestrian death rate). Eating Pop-Tarts has a degree of risk. Sitting on your couch, day after day, has a degree of risk, as inactivity will increase your chance of heart disease.

As for cycling, less than 800 people in the US are killed in a typical year while riding a bicycle. More than seven times more people die from non-steroidal drug (e.g. asprin) usage. So if 2,403,351 Americans died in 2002, (http://www.the-eggman.com/writings/death_stats.html) about 0.0003% of that is attributable to cycling. (It's also rather small compared to the 43,000 or so annual motor vehicle deaths.)

I guess that for those 800 people cycling was pretty dangerous? Well in your mind it wasn't dangerous , it was just fatal. If you climb Everest and have no problems does that mean it's not dangerous? When used responsibility I don't think that using an I pod adds appreciably to the risks. Your argument that cycling is dangerous only when using an I pod is ridiculous on its face...:rolleyes:

And to whatever extent the exercise you get from cycling counteracts one of the more common causes of death (notably heart disease, ~35-40% of annual fatalities) cycling is most likely in the "plus" column.

So, I'm thinking, cycling is a reasonably safe activity. (Assuming you obey traffic laws. Which just happen to include injunctions against wearing headphones, by the way.)
Some places this is true, some places don't speak to it and some places allow one ear bud. So again you overstate. This is pretty subtle but intellectually dishonest.

Also, I find it slightly amusing that you play up the dangers of cycling, and then advocate a practice that introduces additional risks to said activity....

Also I find it slightly amusing that you take such a superior tone when setting up your straw man argument. I didn’t “play up” the risks of cycling, I haven’t seen any of the (I’m going to call them “Free Will” cyclists [those who think it is OK to make your own choice based on conditions] ) play up the risks, I for one acknowledge the risks of cycling and of the possible increase in risk using an I pod, but feel the possibility of injury is outweighed by my love of the activity, that’s a realistic choice we all make, not some pie eyed “ it’s not in the least dangerous”… bah! Have you ever read on Machkas site about her hallucinations? There’s no danger there.

Some people believe that hearing music produces better cycling performance, a claim for which I have seen zero evidence, nor is there any scientific or objective reason to believe that is the case. If there was, the Road Race forum would be loaded with posts contending that listening to Anthrax boosts power output by 4 watts and Celine Dion sucks out 10.

Again with the Strawman, Is that all you have?. Who has claimed "hearing music produces better cycling performance" The question is where has any I pod user advocated using Ipods, when road racing, in a paceline or in group rides? Haven't seen it. The only people to bring it up are the ones in need of a Straw Man argument. The Rigid Controllers [people who feel the only danger in cycling is not letting them decide what is safe, I imagine you are behind the ban on quick release skewers in New Jersey also]. Pretty good straw man huh? Whipped that in on you now everybody hates you!

I'm afraid you get a "D-" for reading comprehension. Gosmsgo was saying that anyone who points the risks associated with using earbuds believes that "cycling is highly dangerous;" but this is clearly not the case. That particular claim is a common form of fallacious thinking used by VC advocates, and I'm calling him on it.

I don't know about your VC, argument. I think you misattributed. It's hard to have a good straw man if you don't.

I think cycling can be dangerous even fatal. You statistic above prove that, How can you quote statistics showing fatalities and then say the above? “Not dangerous, can be fatal.” That does not stand to reason.

I don't think that used responsibly I Pods add much additional risk. Since I do not appear to be indulging in false choices, misattributions of positions or other fallacious procedures, I do in fact seem to be "taking my own advice." ;)

Right, no false choices, misattributions of positions or other fallacious procedures here... "keep moving nothing to see here, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain." Move your hands real fast and no one will see.

I see nothing wrong with attempting to convince someone to abandon a type of behavior where in many (albeit not all) cases the risks strongly outweigh the benefits.

This is wonderful!! We agree totally on this! I believe that I can make the decision when it is appropriate to use my Ipod, and when it is not.

And if you don't like reading those type of posts, you don't have to read them, no one's forcing you. :D

Who's forcing you? The voices are telling you to "Take their QR Skewers ! Right?":D

I've been wrong this whole time.

I dont have an IPOD. I have a 4 dollar radio from walmart that I use to listen to talk radio.

This might things different because I never have the temptation to "rock out" to talk radio and drown out all traffic noise.

;)

time to unsubscribe from this thread


(now back to our regularly scheduled LD programming)

time to unsubscribe from this thread
+1

Well gee there Six, where were you when...
"As a bonus - YOU WIN THE "RICHARD CRANIUM" AWARD, for posting the most asinine comment to the bike forums for June, 2007."

Well, actually, I was right there asking that we knock of the insults. Guess you missed it.


Hummm, strangely mute for one so quick to call someone down for being "kind of rude." Oh but then you agreed with Richard, so that was OK. If your not going to try to have an even hand maybe those comments would be better left unsaid.
Actually, I don't agree with him on this, or much of anything else. And how was it not "even handed" of me to say "I don't use them, I think they're a bad idea and this is why, but if you want to wear them, suit yourself"?



You ran that guy right off this forum, because you didn't agree with him, yeah, pretty adult there.

He said he was leaving. I said he's welcome here. What thread are you reading?

Another +1 on "unsubscribe", I guess. :rolleyes:

I didn't manage to unsubscribe, but will after this post.
I'm a bit alarmed at some of the divisiveness, derision, and sarcasm that has been leaking into the LD forum.

While we do not always agree with each other, up until about a week or two ago there seemed to be much more respect and civility going around.



Whenever I meet folks at events (my experience is with Brevets) there is a certain camraderie that is evident - and while folks will ride carbon or steel or ti or a bent, and some will race off to the next control and others will debate the merits of fenders, there is, for the most part a civility and sense of community to the rides, riders, routes, and organizers. I hope we return to that here in LD land.

(now, for real, I'm unsubscribing)

I probably am to blame, a bit. I spend time at A&S and bring some of that attitude back here with me. It won't happen again.

I'm a bit alarmed at some of the divisiveness, derision, and sarcasm that has been leaking into the LD forum.

While we do not always agree with each other, up until about a week or two ago there seemed to be much more respect and civility going around.

Me, too. Between this unfortunate thread and Mr. Head's rude behavior in pretty much any thread, I'm pretty bummed about the state of the LD forum. So I'm checking out of here for a while. Hope to run into some of you folks in Paris!

What's going on in Paris?;)

What's going on in Paris?;)

That would be the Paris-Brest-Paris at the end of August which several of us are riding. :)


And I hope you aren't serious about leaving, The Octopus, you're a great asset to this forum!

That would be the Paris-Brest-Paris at the end of August which several of us are riding. :)


And I hope you aren't serious about leaving, The Octopus, you're a great asset to this forum!
Ya I know,I was just trying to stop the insanity for awhile:)

Ya I know,I was just trying to stop the insanity for awhile:)

I suspected as much, but I thought I'd help to redirect the conversation. :D

I think someone was taking about bicycles,maybe I-pods...I can't remember now

Let's talk about Paris again.....I hear she's getting out of jail soon;)

I often ride with my iPod, with noise cancelling headphones that completely seal out external noise (even when the music isn't playing). It's nice to shut out the noise of the idiots, and there's just something about grooving to Al Green while riding that makes it so enjoyable for me. I've never felt unsafe doing this because I never rely on the behavior of the driver. Also, my iPod seems to know when I'm dragging and need some inspiration, and it'll play Muddy Waters' 10-minute live version of Kansas City to get me pumping hard again.

Update: I had my first ride with my new mp3 player (sensa m200). I used it when I felt it was safe which ended up being about a third of the ride (120km). I had it off when I was in a small town, big city, and when I was on a major highway (got lost and had to ride on a 110kmph hwy in the hail). When I was first getting used to it I had a few cars suprise me from behind but I soon learned to keep a better eye on traffic (hopefully I'll keep this up when I don't have music playing). I found it did help hous pass and my average speed was higher (which isn't such a good thing for LD). One earbud died halfway through but I didn't find much of an advantage of just having one in.

I'd say if you're going to do it, just be smart about it, know when to turn it off, use your eyes more, and make sure you don't bonk yourself out.

Hey! I saw some guys in the Tour de Fance wearing some type device in the ears. Not sure what brand but I saw both something with 2 ear buds and another that looked like a blue tooth style cell phone. Hmmmm What do the pros do?

The pros are not listening to Ipods ... they are listening to their coaches telling them that so-and-so is coming up from behind, and so-and-so in the breakaway ahead is about to be caught by the peloton, that the team car is going to have a bottle of water ready for them in a minute, and that there is a crash which has taken down 20 riders about 2 kms ahead of them, etc.

Bring your i-pod, watch the latest news/american idle (pun) on your fancy cellphone, text message with SO and drink a latte while you're at it.
If you think you're safe, go do it . . . but stay out of my way when I holler 'on your left'!

The pros are not listening to Ipods ... they are listening to their coaches telling them that so-and-so is coming up from behind, and so-and-so in the breakaway ahead is about to be caught by the peloton, that the team car is going to have a bottle of water ready for them in a minute, and that there is a crash which has taken down 20 riders about 2 kms ahead of them, etc.

True. But in the Lance Chronicle, during his training ride around LA, or was it Austin, he was listening to his iPod. Granted he had a training vehicle watching his six.

When riding alone, which is most of the time, I always have my Ipod with me. I have never had a problem not hearing anyone or anything. I dont see a problem with not hearing my surrondings. I mean, if one day i wake up deaf I am not going to stop riding.

Paul B

So listening to other people talking isn't a distraction at all but music is? Music or peoples words. An alert mind is whats important. Day dreaming when riding doesn't require music or words from another. Nothing is more important that being very aware of ur surroundings. U can open ur eyes and be alert and scan as u ride.

If u r n a car or on a motorcycle or bicycle. Using the alert mind and scanning for problems constantly is whats important.

Yes, I listen to a mp3 player and I use a rear view mirror and am almost paranoid about getting hit. I watch constantly and pay attention. I use same concept when I ride my motorcycle or drive a car.

He who lives life with head in ass is destined to smell poop. U must pull ur head out to smell the coffee or the roses. Live life with blinders and u will only see whats before u.

I listen to my ipod when I am solo but I don't listen to it when I am on club rides because we ride so close to each other and I would endanger the lives of my fellow riders. I believe that people should be able to do what ever they want if it only endangers them (Helmet laws are lame even though I always wear mine, if people want to kill themselves, let them). Now if I am riding in a paceline and I am listening to music, then I can seriously affect the safety of those I am around.

Life is all a matter of risk. If I want to greatly reduce my chances of being hit by a car on my bike, I would only stick to bike paths. I know that I am taking a greater risk of listening to my ipod on my bike, but I am willing to take that risk. I mostly listen to audio books which still allows me to hear cars coming up from behind and other noises on the road.

If you are going to listen to your ipod, I think it is very important that you can control the functions of your player fairly quickly. I have a wireless remote that is hooked up to my ipod with the controls right on my stem so I can control the volume and pause the music when a situation presents itself that I need to be fully alert such as when I am coming up on people walking their dog without a leash taking the entire bike path. This also allows me to tuck in all the wires under my jersey so there are no issues of wires getting in the way.

Here is a photo of my set up.

http://www.barncow.com/bike/ipodremote.jpg

Yeah, Richard? This isn't the place for rational (not to mention properly spelled) posts. Please leave this thread and don't come back. :lol:

I find that its better to use the headphones that have a head band... what I do is put the headphones around my neck and turn the volume so I have some background music... I can still hear cars and such but it is nice to listen to some music during the more monotonous stretches on the route.

So if any of you do risk life and limb with an iPod, especially a larger one like the video, I've found that the Speck Toughskin is a great cover.

http://www.speckproducts.com/vid-toughskin.html

When I'm on a safe ride, I clip my ipod to a cable housing on the front of the frame and ride off into the sunset. I have actually run over my 30Gb ipod in the Speck case TWICE on pavement, once with both wheels, and it still works fine.

I'll add my two cents to this conversation though most others have chimed in that they think it's not dangerous.

So far all except one cyclist or runner I've passed this year has fail to jump when I've (or my group) has passed them. I'm not known for being quiet, I don't wait until the last minute to call out and I don't pass close (another of my pet peeves, cyclist who pass but fail to call out, I'll save that for another thread). Anyway I'll yell out "on your left". One guy had the nerve to be angry with the group for passing, Idiot! I never wear anything that covers my ears to the point of blocking out sound. And yes I play in traffic, to get from point A to the prettier places to ride I'm required to ride through traffic and I've got several thousand miles this year alone. I think I may post a sign on my back that says "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!".

Pretty sure this has been mentioned so before in the thread, so +1 for the Slipstreamz (http://www.slipstreamz.com/). I have been using them for over 6 months. Got them pretty shortly after they hit the US market I think. I use an iPod Shuffle clipped to the back of my helmet, attached all the wires to my helmet straps, zip tied the extra wires. The set up works flawlessly. I never have to worry about wires or unclipping when taking my helmet off. Plus I can still hear people talking or cars approaching from either direction. I find the set up no more dangerous than listening to music in my vehicle at a normal volume.

I like debate about issues. Sometimes I change my beliefs. This is why I involve myself in debates or discussions. I pretty much ignore the individuals who don't seem to be able to keep it on that level.

I haven't read anything here that makes me believe I am acting in an unsafe manor when using my mp3 player. (My wife has an iPod I have an mp3 player) I do feel that wearing a helmet is much safer and so do wear a helmet. Safety glasses as well.

As my speeds near the speed of sound...............................

I can think of two situations in which restricted hearing has caused problems for me personally.

1) Passing riders on the bike path. They don't hear me call out "on your left" and wander into my path.

2) Riders on group rides. These folks are hazards as they often don't hear warnings and group directions.

And I personally ride in an area with a lot of blind driveways, where being able to hear the car approaching is worthwhile. I wouldn't say it's saved my life or anything, but at the least there have been several occasions where being able to hear the car allowed me to slow and/or move, thereby preventing a nasty surprise.

So again, I'm not up on my soapbox or anything, and the above reasons may or may not be "valid" in your personal circumstance, but there you go. I'd rather be able to hear, and I'd rather you be able to hear me when my safety depends upon it, but none of it is earth-shattering. Just don't get pissy when I treat you like a safety hazard if we meet on the road. :)