Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - To Ipod or not to Ipod, that is the question!

I thought I would start this thread so people could vent pro or con about Ipods. The thread on "what do you think about” is an excellent thread. It took awhile for people to post, (or it seemed like it to me) because it was thought provoking.

So here’s a thread for Ipod pro or con.

I like my RCA Lyra. I have different ear pieces, one has only one “bud” so one ear is free at all times if I reasonably expect to see other cyclists. The other with 2 “buds” I use on longer rides when I doubt I will see others. I wrap the cords around my helmet straps so that I can easily reach up and drop one or both from my ears and they won’t become entangled. I always war a mirror on my glasses so I usually see cars or cyclists overtaking from the rear. I have tried some external speaker systems but have found them to be wanting.

I can’t see how someone wearing an Ipod would be anything but a minor hazard to anyone’s safety compared to people driving by at 65 or 70 mph in their air-conditioned, insulated cabins with their stereos cranked to the max. I don’t have any problem with someone wearing one or not except in a pace line or in close proximity to other cyclists (riding in or with a group) I find it rude, and in some cases hazardous in those situations, for myself those situations are the exception.

There is nothing better than the sound of the bike and the various nature sounds one will encounter on the road.

If you're in a car, you are a) really obvious to other cars, b) wrapped in a ton or so of crash-tested vehicular mass, and c) not going to hear much anyway. Ever notice how loud sirens have to be for cars to hear 'em?

If you're on a bike, you have almost no protection in the event of a crash -- a helmet (assuming you wear one) and that's it. Thus comparing cars to bikes in terms of hearing is irrelevant and moot.

If you're in on a MUP or in a city, riding with earbuds is crazy talk.

If you're in the suburbs or country, you can hear a car well in advance of seeing it. When I was in Ireland, this was very helpful in making sure I was well out of the way of large farm machinery approaching on the very narrow, very curved roads.

Now, if you're living in Nebraska and normally ride on roads that are straight as an arrow, and use a mirror, I guess it isn't a big deal.

On a side note, I don't need to hear music 24/7 and it doesn't make me ride faster. I'd rather hear the wind in the trees.

There is nothing better than the sound of the bike and the various nature sounds one will encounter on the road.+1 http://sbw.sportbikes.com/images/smilies/icon14.gif Spinning along early on a Sunday morning (before other people are even awake) is the best feeling in the world. Listening to nothing but silence with the exception of some chirping birds and blowing wind is fantastic.

I went for a 20 mile ride at 2 AM. The silence was beautiful, the sound of my wheels on the pavement pure poetry. I would whistle a little tune in the areas deer are active in so they would run away and not crash into me.

There is nothing better than the sound of the bike and the various nature sounds one will encounter on the road.

+1

Plus I've got enough to think about, and am comfortable enough being alone with myself, to ride quite a lengthy time without any other technological distractions.

That said, I have used my MP3 player on a couple recent rides (as I've mentioned in other threads). I rode the first 7 hours of each of my 400K and 600K brevets with my MP3 player tuned into a local rural station. A few comments about that:

-- I ride with one ear bud in, not both. I hate the idea of not being able to hear what is going on around me, and I get dizzy when I wear both ear buds while doing anything other than sitting quietly. I can't walk with both ear buds in, I can't ride a bus with both ear buds in, and I definitely can't cycle!

-- On the subject of not being able to hear what going on around me ............... I want to be able to hear that faint "clink" that means the farm I'm riding past has a dog. The faint "clink" occurs right before the barking starts, if the dog is a barker ... or right before you hear the pitter-patter of claws on pavement by your ankle if the dog is not a barker. ............... I want to hear the sound of a distant vehicle on a gravel road I'm approaching, because sometimes they don't stop ............... I want to hear the sound of the red-wing blackbirds so I can place them and brace myself when they start divebombing me ............... I want to hear the crunching in the forest that alerts me to the fact that a deer or moose is in there and may suddenly emerge onto the road.

I made an interesting discovery when I used my MP3 player on those two rides. Even with just one ear bud in, my ability to hear and analyze what was going on around me was diminished ... and I started to feel somewhat uncomfortable. After 7 hours, I really did not want to listen to any more radio, I wanted to hear what was going on around me.

-- One of the reasons I ride a bicycle is to get away from technology. I work with technology and am bombarded with it all day long most days. Many of us living in "western civilization" hardly spend any time at all without some sort of "noise" from our computers, the television, the stereo, etc. Riding a bicycle gets me out into nature ... away from technology. It's a relief to get away from it all.

-- After about 7 hours with the MP3 player, I really started getting annoyed with it. I kept accidentally knocking the bud out of my ear, the wires were getting in the way, every time I changed clothing (took off my jacket, put on my vest, took off my vest, etc.), I had to change the position of the MP3 player and all the wiring, I'd bump it and turn if off occasionally ... it just started being a real pain. So I turned it off and put it away.

-- But I think an MP3 player can have a place ... I chose to listen to a local rural station which told me about events in the towns I was cycling through/near, which was interesting. It also gave me some of the rural weather which was helpful. In a way it was sort of like having someone there with me for a while. I was also listening to it mainly while riding some very empty country roads around central Alberta ... there was no one out there!! :D

+1

Plus I've got enough to think about, and am comfortable enough being alone with myself, to ride quite a lengthy time without any other technological distractions.

That said, I have used my MP3 player on a couple recent rides (as I've mentioned in other threads). I rode the first 7 hours of each of my 400K and 600K brevets with my MP3 player tuned into a local rural station. A few comments about that:

-- I ride with one ear bud in, not both. I hate the idea of not being able to hear what is going on around me, and I get dizzy when I wear both ear buds while doing anything other than sitting quietly. I can't walk with both ear buds in, I can't ride a bus with both ear buds in, and I definitely can't cycle!

-- On the subject of not being able to hear what going on around me ............... I want to be able to hear that faint "clink" that means the farm I'm riding past has a dog. The faint "clink" occurs right before the barking starts, if the dog is a barker ... or right before you hear the pitter-patter of claws on pavement by your ankle if the dog is not a barker. ............... I want to hear the sound of a distant vehicle on a gravel road I'm approaching, because sometimes they don't stop ............... I want to hear the sound of the red-wing blackbirds so I can place them and brace myself when they start divebombing me ............... I want to hear the crunching in the forest that alerts me to the fact that a deer or moose is in there and may suddenly emerge onto the road.

I made an interesting discovery when I used my MP3 player on those two rides. Even with just one ear bud in, my ability to hear and analyze what was going on around me was diminished ... and I started to feel somewhat uncomfortable. After 7 hours, I really did not want to listen to any more radio, I wanted to hear what was going on around me.

-- One of the reasons I ride a bicycle is to get away from technology. I work with technology and am bombarded with it all day long most days. Many of us living in "western civilization" hardly spend any time at all without some sort of "noise" from our computers, the television, the stereo, etc. Riding a bicycle gets me out into nature ... away from technology. It's a relief to get away from it all.

-- After about 7 hours with the MP3 player, I really started getting annoyed with it. I kept accidentally knocking the bud out of my ear, the wires were getting in the way, every time I changed clothing (took off my jacket, put on my vest, took off my vest, etc.), I had to change the position of the MP3 player and all the wiring, I'd bump it and turn if off occasionally ... it just started being a real pain. So I turned it off and put it away.

-- But I think an MP3 player can have a place ... I chose to listen to a local rural station which told me about events in the towns I was cycling through/near, which was interesting. It also gave me some of the rural weather which was helpful. In a way it was sort of like having someone there with me for a while. I was also listening to it mainly while riding some very empty country roads around central Alberta ... there was no one out there!! :D
+1 ... I agree with you on all points on this one. I probably should be wearing a mirror on my glasses, but I don't. That's one bad blemish on me. I rely on ambient sounds to warn me about various conditions on the road. For example, I want to hear a pit bull barking his lungs out at me so I can kick it into high gear ... or brace myself when that logger truck comes screaming from behind me at 50+ mph and a narrow 1.5 lane road. In fact, I think the last time I wore an ipod or MP3 player while riding was listening to a podcast of click and clack, Car Talk. Wasn't even music!

I don't own an iPod or MP3 player so, for me, it's not a question at all. As others have pointed out, it's handicap to situational awareness and also I don't feel like I need to listen to music on my ride in order to be entertained.

With that said, I don't impose the viewpoint on others, so I won't tell you whether or not you should ride one ... just that, if you choose to, please wear it in such a way that you can hear me call out to you if I'm passing or informing you of a 'car back'.

I probably should be wearing a mirror on my glasses, but I don't. That's one bad blemish on me.

I used to wear a glasses mirror all the time when I was a young rider, and it was great. Then I didn't wear one for quite a few years, and when I tried again a couple years ago, I couldn't do it. It was very distracting and gave me a headache.

Now I use a bar-end mirror and that works quite well. It is extremely handy when I'm making lane changes to do a left turn. I check it to determine how much traffic is behind me, then start doing my shoulder checks when it thins enough so I think I can start moving over.

If you feel uncomfortable with a glasses mirror, you might try adding one to your bicycle.

There is nothing better than the sound of the bike and the various nature sounds one will encounter on the road.

I can't agree more. The sound of a well tuned bike is a lovely thing. Plus, as far as I know, here in California it's illegal.

I love the sounds of nature is one of the reasons why any of us love to bike. Riding alone is a great benefit to reviving the soul when one is peopled out (I work with the best and the worst in people....and I have a passion for helping people). However, I live in the country so nature is all around me all the time (still overwhelmed every morning looking out the front or the back door).

Ipods? I prefer old tech am/fm to take the boredom off a long ride out on the open road. I like having multiple stations and choice of talk radio or tunes. Ipods are great for hearing your faves though I prefer someone "live" in between songs.

I don't wear headphones while riding in the city. I often listen to music while riding country roads though because I can't stand the sound of the wind on longer rides. The music helps motivate me as well.

I think you should ride with and without headphones in safe environments to decide which you prefer.

great topic. i said this in another thread but i have been considering listening to tunes while i bike on longer rides. that said, though, i sincerely do enjoy hearing the sounds of biking around me. on a mass ride it's so lovely to hear everyone clipping in at the beginning of the ride and the susurration (http://www.webster.com/dictionary/susurration) of the wheels spinning on pavement. i also love hearing birdsong around me and it was a rare treat earlier this spring to hear frogs croaking. reading everyone else's comments has made me realize the folly of my ways. i'm going to forget the bike speakers after all and continue to enjoy the sound of one wheel spinning. oh wait, that would be a unicycle, followed by a big clunk as i fell off. :-)

** mp **

It's taken a while to get used to just one bud, but there's no question that one bud improves safety dramatically. NY law says one ear piece. I just need to pick up a stereo single bud.

I'm not a "sound of the tires gets me high" kinda guy, I envy those who are. I'm a musician and always have new material to learn, and music on the ride makes the pedaling seem easier.

I can’t see how someone wearing an Ipod would be anything but a minor hazard to anyone’s safety compared to people driving by at 65 or 70 mph in their air-conditioned, insulated cabins with their stereos cranked to the max.Of course not, you're saying that encountering "deaf cyclists" along the road and highways is typically not dangerous. Obviously for you, an accident wouldn't much matter, you're already significantly brain-damaged.

As a bonus - YOU WIN THE "RICHARD CRANIUM" AWARD, for posting the most asinine comment to the bike forums for June, 2007.

Of course not, you're saying that encountering "deaf cyclists" along the road and highways is typically not dangerous. Obviously for you, an accident wouldn't much matter, you're already significantly brain-damaged.

As a bonus - YOU WIN THE "RICHARD CRANIUM" AWARD, for posting the most asinine comment to the bike forums for June, 2007.

I don’t know what your ad homonym attack adds to the discussion, I don’t think it adds anything but with your non-de plume I suppose your personality requires it. :rolleyes:

This is kind of an abstract thought so I will take it slow. An SUV weighing 5000 pounds, traveling at 60 mph (that’s Miles Per Hour, Dick) is @ 25 times as heavy as a cyclist, and traveling 3 times as fast as most cyclists. To keep it simple let us use mile/ pounds of energy:
SUV 5000lbs. x 60mph = 300,000 mile/pounds of energy.
Cyclist 200lbs x 20mph= 5000 mile/ pounds of energy.

Now this is the tricky part, contact with which will do the most damage to me on my bike. 300,000 – 5,000 ( here’s a hint, how many places are to the left of the comma?) Granted contact with either is not desirable, but I think I am less worried about someone with an earbud than someone not paying close attention in an SUV. If your that worried maybe you should hang it up?

The true bottom line is that if you are not using some type of mirror, where you can check visually your going to miss stuff overtaking you be it cars, bikes or motorcycles. Most cars are not that loud, bicycles are almost silent and if there is much ambient wind noise. Do you get the picture? I think not but I tire.

In regards to the Dick Head Award, I must say I am thrilled, I have heard so much about the high quality toilet paper it is printed on, I’m sure I will appreciate it daily, Heart felt thanks.:D

I'm a musician, I love music. When I'm not playing, I always have music playing at home, work, in my car, but NEVER on the bike.

It's illegal here in Florida to ride w/ headphones, so it's moot for me. Even if it was legal I wouldn't do it, though.....to distracting.

I think the entire notion of headphones being dangerous is completely crazy.

IF you are doing things properly (warning VC instructor showing) like scanning for traffic before moving left (not just listening:eek:) and not having it so loud that you cannot hear things you need to hear like a honk or siren then what difference does it make?

You never need to listen for anything in cycling. Could a deaf person not cycle safely?

This is just one of those things that parents say along with "wear a helmet and stay on the sidewalk."

If someone can convince me of why I need to hear traffic then I would love to listen but I cant think of any. Even if someone was reving their motor right behind me and fixing to run me down there is nothing I could do about it anyway.

I think the entire notion of headphones being dangerous is completely crazy.




Amen

Between listening for cars and looking over my shoulder I've never felt the need for a mirror. I'd also rather be able to hear the traffic comming than listen to music.

but why would you NEED to listen for cars?

What difference does it make.

Even if you dont hear a car you still need to scan.

Kimber, I appreciate you laying down the science, but I don't think it addresses the problem. The question is whether or not there is an appreciable difference in the cyclist's safety when wearing ear buds or headphones. Your comparison only highlights the need for caution.

My approach is that since the need for caution is obvious, then it's foolhearty to take any of your senses out of the picture when they can easily help.

What I've discovered after many miles of no sound, one bud, and two bud, is that having your road side ear open does give you a quicker recognition of approaching sound, much like the advantage of seeing a car in your mirror sooner than later. I use a mirror, but nobody stares at it non-stop. The extra response time is worth wearing one bud for, imho. I don't see a big difference between no bud and one bud.

Can anyone here tell me if they know the difference in sound of a car passing 12" to your left, or 3'?

Would it make a difference if they were to plow into your rear end?

Would you have the reaction time (and the mindset) to process "Wow, that car sounds like it is going to hit me, rather than pass 12" off my shoulder, I better bail out now!"


I've ridden with earbuds and I've ridden without.
I've determined that I prefer the quiet of my ride to the noise of the Pod, and I carry so much with me I don't really need another gadget on the bike, so I don't use it anymore.

YMMV


Now, headphones or music on the MUP - thats just being rude.

As I have mentioned, anyone who would argue that operating audio equipment while riding is already brain-damaged -- so basing my comments on reason is worthless. Clearly these people should be limited to riding on private property, preferably the kind surrounded by gates and guards. These people are a real danger to themselves and others as well.

I take my ipod when I ride for more than 4 hours (actually I rarely use it unless I ride all day)...and I use it for about 1 hour or so during that time. It helps me get over 'the hump'....fighting exhaustion and/or boredom.

PS If the volume is low and/or one earbud is out then there is no real hazzard here IMHO, no reason to over react.

… basing my comments on reason is worthless.

Oh Dick ! Your Freudian slip is showing!:D

I love my music as much as the next person but silence is such a rare thing where I live that when I am able to get someplace away from the cars (I mostly ride Rail Trails) I want to enjoy it. In the rare event that I do feel like flirting with danger (riding on the road around here) I don't want anything distracting me. I use the ipod for running or walking only.

I love to jump on my $2500.00 carbon road bike, wearing $500.00 worth of 100 % synthetic clothing and gear, so I can go out and commune with Mother Nature. It’s special. I just put it down to the fact that I’m complicated. You know the whole duality of man thing.

There is some irony, or contradiction in cycling. So much of the manufacturing technology responsible for modern bicycles and accessories is destructive to the environment. And of course, road-riding requires roads.

I have nothing against cyclists using Ipods while riding, I simply object to the stupidity of anyone arguing that cycling with music is as safe as paying complete attention to your riding. I won't ride near anyone wearing any kind of music player and advise others do avoid those cyclists as well.

Oh good. Another thread where we all get angry with one another for not believing in the same stuff. Must be leaking over from A&S.

FWIW, I don't care if you ride with earbuds. It's your business. I personally am uncomfortable with restricting my senses while in a dynamic environment. I do want to be able to hear horns and racing engines and screeching tires. You may not. You're a grown-up and get to make your own decisions.

I do care, at least a little bit, if you wear earbuds while in my paceline/pack. In close quarters I want to be able to communicate with you if necessary and I want to know you're giving your full attention to the matter at hand. I'm not the kind of personality that gets into people's faces, but if you're listening to the iPod or (insert rolleyes icon here) yakking on the cell phone while riding close to me, I'm going to ensure that you're not riding close to me anymore.

As a personal matter, one of the reasons I enjoy the bike is to get away from the technology overload that comes with being alive these days, so I really don't understand the folks who want to take it with them wherever they go. Again, though, my personal preferences have absolutely zero impact on your personal preferences, so if you prefer Snoop Dogg over wind whispering in the pines, knock yourself out. :p

As for the insults? You're in the wrong forum. :mad:

Oh good. Another thread where we all get angry with one another for not believing in the same stuff. Must be leaking over from A&S.

As for the insults? You're in the wrong forum. :mad:

...but if I ride VC I'll be respected just like a vehicle, and therefore I can be riding, eating, beating the kids, talking on the phone, putting on my make-up, and listening to the iPod...


;)

There is some irony, or contradiction in cycling. So much of the manufacturing technology responsible for modern bicycles and accessories is destructive to the environment. And of course, road-riding requires roads.

I have nothing against cyclists using Ipods while riding, I simply object to the stupidity of anyone arguing that cycling with music is as safe as paying complete attention to your riding. I won't ride near anyone wearing any kind of music player and advise others do avoid those cyclists as well.

I would like to challenge you to tell me exactly what makes you safer by being able to fully hear traffic.

If you arent scanning before changing positions in the lane and relying on your ears then you will soon be dead anyway.

Im being serious about this. Lets speak about facts and not just vomit back up crap that dummies tell us all the time like, "wear a helmet and stay on the sidewalk."

This is not the place for discussing "VC", IMO. I think "VC" is foolish and have gone into great detail about why over in A&S.

Regardless, I have relied upon my ears while cycling for the last 20 or so years and am not, as far as I am aware, dead.

By being able to hear, I can tell when cars are approaching from behind. I can tell from the engine note if they are travelling at much higher speed than average. I can hear horns indicating some type of emergency, and I can hear the screeching of tires. I can hear an engine idling in a "parked" car, so I know to pay extra attention in case he pulls out without looking. And I can hear the motor of a car pulling out from a hidden driveway, which is invisible regardless of how many mirrors you're wearing.

In a pack or a paceline, I can hear shouts from riders in a dangerous situation, or calling out hazards. And I can hear instructions about unanticipated turns, or someone behind me calling out a flat tire. (I can't count the number of times I have seen iPod wearers react to a group change with stupid astonishment.)

Hearing, to me, is an important part of the "sensory array" while riding. It isn't the be-all, end-all, magic solution, but it isn't irrelevant either, and I'm not willing to throw it away for the sake of a few tunes. You may be different, and again, that's cool with me.

Moreover, it isn't just about hearing, it's about attention being diverted from more important things. Are you scanning for road hazards or are you grooving to Sting? Maybe you can do both. Or maybe, like legions of cellphone yakking motorists, you just think you can. Again, not my business -- as long as you're not hazardous to me -- but I know where I want my attention while riding.

Hope that's a bit of perspective, and I sure hope this doesn't turn into another VC hatefest.

For commuting, I routinely wear a single earbud and listen to books on tape; on brevets, I'll occasionally listen. Out of 38 hours riding this year's 600K, I may have listened for two or three. Helps to pass the time on sections where you'd rather not commune with nature, e.g. when you're bonking, or fighting the wind, or climbing yet another ridge. I usually switch it off and pull out the earbud as soon as any other cyclists are around, not because I'd be endangering them in the slightest, but because it just ain't friendly. But there have been occasions where I've forgotten to do that, and I can carry on a conversation with no problem at all with the earbud in.

All that said, I'd have to say that anyone who thinks that they are precisely as safe with an earbud as without is fooling themselves. The ability to hear a car coming is a useful signal to check our road position, check in the mirror for how the car is approaching, etc. It does potentially give a tick more time to dive off the road. I'll admit that there have been plenty of times when I wasn't wearing earbuds when cars snuck up on me without me hearing them. Yes, I'm ahead of them in the road, and if they follow the law it should make no difference if I'm deaf, or listening to an earbud, or whatever. Under no reasonable legal standard should wearing an earbud (or being deaf) imply any sort of contributory negligence if someone runs into you. There is no requirement that we get out of their way, whether we heard them or not. Unfortunately, cars occasionally interpret the law in their favor, not in mine, and I'd rather not be "dead right". I can hear cars nearly as well with the earbud as without. But not precisely as well. So there is a slight chance that a car I would have heard without the ear bud wouldn't be heard with it. I'm increasing my risk, slightly, by wearing the earbud. Randonneuring (and life) are full of risk, so I don't think this is a big deal.

I think you should quit counting on your ears to tell you when cars are coming from behind and use your eyes instead.

None of the other things you said make much sense to me.

If you are using your ears in place of your eyes you will eventually get hit. I have been passed by cars I didnt hear until they were beside me before. And no I was not wearing headphones at the time. :)

I think it could be distracting but not anymore distracting then listening to the radio when driving a car.

Do you drive a car? If so do you listen to the radio?

For commuting, I routinely wear a single earbud and listen to books on tape; on brevets, I'll occasionally listen. Out of 38 hours riding this year's 600K, I may have listened for two or three. Helps to pass the time on sections where you'd rather not commune with nature, e.g. when you're bonking, or fighting the wind, or climbing yet another ridge. I usually switch it off and pull out the earbud as soon as any other cyclists are around, not because I'd be endangering them in the slightest, but because it just ain't friendly. But there have been occasions where I've forgotten to do that, and I can carry on a conversation with no problem at all with the earbud in.

All that said, I'd have to say that anyone who thinks that they are precisely as safe with an earbud as without is fooling themselves. The ability to hear a car coming is a useful signal to check our road position, check in the mirror for how the car is approaching, etc. It does potentially give a tick more time to dive off the road. I'll admit that there have been plenty of times when I wasn't wearing earbuds when cars snuck up on me without me hearing them. Yes, I'm ahead of them in the road, and if they follow the law it should make no difference if I'm deaf, or listening to an earbud, or whatever. Under no reasonable legal standard should wearing an earbud (or being deaf) imply any sort of contributory negligence if someone runs into you. There is no requirement that we get out of their way, whether we heard them or not. Unfortunately, cars occasionally interpret the law in their favor, not in mine, and I'd rather not be "dead right". I can hear cars nearly as well with the earbud as without. But not precisely as well. So there is a slight chance that a car I would have heard without the ear bud wouldn't be heard with it. I'm increasing my risk, slightly, by wearing the earbud. Randonneuring (and life) are full of risk, so I don't think this is a big deal.

I can hear a lot of inferiority in this post. Do you feel comfortable on the road?

My bike is my car and if I rode the way you speak I would never get anywhere.

I think you should quit counting on your ears to tell you when cars are coming from behind and use your eyes instead.

You're welcome to think whatever you want. I'll continue to do what has worked for me for several decades.


None of the other things you said make much sense to me.

Okay. Without further explanation, there won't be any debate. But again, you are welcome to whatever opinions you like.


If you are using your ears in place of your eyes you will eventually get hit.
It's not a binary equation, mate. I use both my eyes AND my ears. And unsubstantiated blanket statements like "you will eventually get hit" are, at the very least, unhelpful.


I have been passed by cars I didnt hear until they were beside me before. And no I was not wearing headphones at the time. :)
And? I like blue. What were we talking about again?

I can hear a lot of inferiority in this post. Do you feel comfortable on the road?

Oh. Now I get it. You're one of those hardcore "I have rights!!!" VC types. :rolleyes:

Somebody needs to check the padlock on the A&S gate. One got out. :lol:

Oh. Now I get it. You're one of those hardcore "I have rights!!!" VC types. :rolleyes:

Somebody needs to check the padlock on the A&S gate. One got out. :lol:


my point exactly, with my snarky comment a few posts back.
ride what you love, love what you ride, stay safe out there.



just remember that this here is the internet, and we can argue all day long, or get out on our bikes... hmmm... thats where i'm heading.

Right. Guess I'm slow on the uptake today. :)

I don't mid debating the concepts of VC -- although I've already said my piece on it over at A&S -- but the attitudes of some of the more ardent supporters grate on me a bit. Some of these guys really do seem to believe that they hold the secrets to safe riding and that anyone who isn't following their precepts will shortly suffer a messy death.

And one gets the feeling that, if it actually happens, there will be several rounds of self-congratulatory "I told you so's" at A&S.

</rant>

I can hear a lot of inferiority in this post. Do you feel comfortable on the road?

My bike is my car and if I rode the way you speak I would never get anywhere.

if this is 'thebulls' i think it is, you don't know bull.
there's no inferiority in the man, so far as i know.

if its not thebulls i think it is, i could be wrong... but... again... you must be superior because you call your bike your car, which is an outrage, if you ask me!

Bacciagalupe (http://www.bikeforums.net/member.php?u=37529) "If you're in the suburbs or country, you can hear a car well in advance of seeing it. When I was in Ireland, this was very helpful in making sure I was well out of the way of large farm machinery approaching on the very narrow, very curved roads."

WOW, I thought the speed of light was a lot faster that the speed of sound. Maybe I am wrong on this issue but I seem to remember learning this when I was like 10 years old.

I strongly recomend u begin to practice a scanning technique. Keep your eyes looking well down the road. If you can see the car before hearing it then seriously maybe you should have your eyes checked. The light reflected off the car should reach you well inadvance of the sound!

Everything has some level of danger. Its a personal decission we all make. Why bungie jump? Its Dangerous! Why do anything but live in a giant padded room? Wouldn't it be safer to just stay in your own personal safe padded space and have your food and pills delivered?:D

if this is 'thebulls' i think it is, you don't know bull.
there's no inferiority in the man, so far as i know.



Yeah, anyone who can ride a 1200K (last August) and all the qualifiers for the PBP this year has got to have some confidence out there! I rode with him on the 1200K last August, and didn't notice a bit of inferiority. :D

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We have to remember that this is the LONG DISTANCE forum, not the commuting forum. We're talking about rides that take us a good portion of the day, all day, or many days one right after the other with very little sleep. And that 'very little sleep' aspect is something to keep in mind. We're riding tired ... exhausted. We've already got one strike against us in terms of safety. Do we really want to take away one of our 5 senses, or part of it, too?

As I've mentioned before, I'll ride for a while early on in a ride with one earbud, but after a while I can't be bothered, and I don't want to be distracted by something I can control ... something I can turn off and put away.

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In answer to the question: Can anyone here tell me if they know the difference in sound of a car passing 12" to your left, or 3'? -- yep.

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And in answer to the comment in the post above about seeing the light of the farm vehicles before we hear them. We don't just ride at night, we ride during the day too, and during the day, farm vehicles don't use their lights.

WOW, I thought the speed of light was a lot faster that the speed of sound.
Have you ridden on narrow, twisty lanes with high hedges on both sides (like many parts of Ireland)? You can see about 100 m ahead, if you are lucky. Ears count in those situations.

Lay off the heavy-handed humour, you might want to start with the light-hearted stuff first.

This really has nothing to do with VC.

If I had a car I would tear all my mirrors off, throw my radio out the window and just "listen" for passing cars. :)

Sound stupid?:p

Yeah, anyone who can ride a 1200K (last August) and all the qualifiers for the PBP this year has got to have some confidence out there! I rode with him on the 1200K last August, and didn't notice a bit of inferiority. :D
...

Thanks, Machka, I'm the same "thebulls". It was a great pleasure riding with you at the end of BMB. We were riding at such awesome speeds, almost thirteen miles an hour in places. Longest 25 miles of my life.

"Inferiority" seemed like a weird take on my post. I'm just trying to survive, so anything I can do to increase my odds is helpful. All I was trying to say in my post is that I think that sometimes listening to an earbud is a reasonable risk, but it's impossible to claim that it does not increase your risk at all. We are out on roads where there are plenty of hazards, even without including multi-ton chunks of metal speeding past us, driven by potentially-inebriated drivers who just left the bars at closing time, 2 a.m. on Sunday. If hearing an engine coming up behind you gives you one tick more of time to check your line and check your mirror, then it might just save your life. Might, if you're lucky.

I've ridden 4800 miles so far this year, of which more than 2000 were on RUSA or ACP brevets (5x200K, 3x300K, 400K, 600K, and a fleche). During that time, I know two extremely-experienced tandem riders who were sideswiped by a truck (but only slightly injured), plus there was the New Yorker who was killed by a pickup truck on a Texas 400K. A week after I heard about that, I got hit head-on by an inexperienced cyclist who mis-timed an attempt to sprint across my path. I ended up with a fractured cheekbone, nerve damage to my face and teeth, and a fractured tooth that had to get a crown. Plus, my newly-rebuilt Trek 400 with Reynolds 531 tubing was destroyed! (I was able to ride a 400K the weekend after the crash, and the damage seems to be healing up very well, though the teeth on the upper right are still somewhat numb.) On that 400K, I was right next to someone who crashed -- riding at dawn, a moment's inattention looking at their bike computer, combined with the road's shoulder suddenly turning into gravel and a curb (he tacoed a wheel and got some scrapes and bruises, but straightened the wheel and finished the 400, probably before me).

What we do is not without risk. But from what I've heard, plenty of people in cars get killed every year, people get injured in their baths, or playing soccer, or walking their dog. I even hear that it's possible to get seriously injured while putting on a sweater :-)

So I'm pretty confident that I'm taking reasonable risks. I'm pretty confident in my bike-handling skills, etc., and in my experience at riding on all kinds of roads in all kinds of weather and traffic conditions. In the last three years, I've ridden further than the circumference of the planet! But I don't want my kids to have to say "He died doing what he loved to do", so I do try to minimize risks. And it is absolutely indisputable that an earbud increases risk.

Be careful out there, everyone. Take 'er easy and get 'er done.

Nick

Sound stupid?
Yes, but probably not in the way you meant it.

There are laws against driving with headphones. There's a reason for that. And no one here has suggested that you should ride without mirrors. That's just another one of your binary universe strawmen. In the real world, some people use mirrors and others don't, and I don't see anything wrong with that.

And again, you are welcome to deprive yourself of one or more of your senses while riding, as far as I'm concerned. It's your business, and if you happen to end up in the same pack or paceline as me, you'll just be one more low-level hazard to be dealt with.

If I had a car I would tear all my mirrors off, throw my radio out the window and just "listen" for passing cars. :) Sound stupid?
This is a false choice. No one is saying you should not look at all and only use your hearing.

The point is that in many situations it is helpful to use the full range of applicable senses for the task at hand, especially since vision is highly directional and hearing is much more omnidirectional. The more congested the area, the greater the risk is from a) blocking your hearing and b) the minor distraction of the music.

Vision is obviously the primary sense for humans, but it's far from perfect. Read up on change blindness and inattention blindness and you may start to realize that vision is not exactly infallible.



You never need to listen for anything in cycling.
I take it you've never done a group ride of any sort, let alone cycled in County Clare....




I strongly recomend u begin to practice a scanning technique. Keep your eyes looking well down the road. If you can see the car before hearing it then seriously maybe you should have your eyes checked....
As LWaB pointed out, road visibility is very limited in some parts of rural Ireland. Tall overgrowth and walls, narrow and winding roads, lots of little hills. And in quite a few spots, you'll hear a dog barking at you before you see it bounding towards you.

Edit:

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u191/bacciagalupe/18_Irish_Superhighway.jpg

Can you see over that hill? :D

Now, picture a road that narrow, with a sharp bend to the left, greenery about 7' high. I didn't take too many pictures of stuff like that, what can I say, it wasn't scenic. ;)



Why do anything but live in a giant padded room? Wouldn't it be safer to just stay in your own personal safe padded space and have your food and pills delivered?
Again, another false choice.

As I ride regularly on the streets of NYC and equally congested areas of New Jersey, it's slightly ridiculous of you to assert that I'm some kind of safety nut who insists on using a personal force field at all times. Nor do I regard cycling as an inherently unsafe activity -- that is, as long as I pay attention, obey traffic laws, and recognize that sometimes cars do not expect and/or see cyclists.

Rather, the point is that wearing headphones introduces a small risk that, in most cases, is not worth the (alleged) benefit.

Obviously that risk will be lower if you're in a flat area with few intersections and long-range visibility. And if that's the case, I'd think a bike ride would be so boring that even music couldn't help. :D

I take a small radio so in my tent I can listen to the local stations for awhile.

Once in Alberta I heard of this Church Pancake Breakfast the next morning,it took a little to get there ,but damn they were good,and the people so wonderful

Take a radio,listen to what the locals listen to

(I realize this is the LD forum and I'm just visiting from the Touring forum...but its my two cents worth......now back to regular programming)