Utility Cycling - What's up with the low riders?

Some thoughts:

First, most people don't know any better. They don't understand "proper" bike setup and are not prone to experimentation.

Second, I think some people are uneasy with a high seat. My wife, to this day, thinks it is a problem that she is on her tip-toes when seated on the saddle and believes the bike is too large for her as a result - despite how many times I assure her that it is not.

Finally, a low saddle creates the upright seating position people are initially more comfortable with.


My parents had no clue how to setup a bike, and as a kid I rode however they assembled the bike for me. It wasn't until about 6th grade, when my scout troop was preparing for the cycling merit badge that one of the asst. scout masters, an avid cyclist, taught me how to set the seat height "correctly".

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I've never given much thought to standing. I can climb a hill either way, and choose to upshift and stand or downshift and sit depending on my mood that minute. I would speculate that some people who aren't comfortable standing are riding bikes too small for them. The closer the bars get to you, the harder it is to keep keep your weight centered. I've ridden bikes with aggressive positions for so long now, that I imagine I would be quite uncomfortable on a classic 3-speed style bike with high bars and a short reach - for anything more than a casual spin around the block that is.

I would speculate that some people who aren't comfortable standing are riding bikes too small for them.

I'm certainly NOT included in that list - if anything, my bike's too BIG for me...

I'm certainly NOT included in that list - if anything, my bike's too BIG for me...

As a disclaimer, when I wrote that, I was specifically thinking of all the kids and adults I see riding around my neighborhood with their seatposts slammed to the bottom. I wouldn't expect any posters here to be quite that bad.

As a disclaimer, when I wrote that, I was specifically thinking of all the kids and adults I see riding around my neighborhood with their seatposts slammed to the bottom. I wouldn't expect any posters here to be quite that bad.


As an interesting note, my 15 yr old son rides his dual suspension mtb with the seat as low as he can get it so he can do "mono's", but when we ride together I constantly tell him to put the seat up to get more power in his stroke so he can keep up to me.

Well my problem is I can't find the damn clutch.
You would think that a bicycle required double-clutching and goosing the throttle to shift, given the efforts made to avoid the task of shifting taken by some enthusiasts.

There seem to be a lot of younger (as in high school/college age) riders around here that put their saddles so low their knees are nearly hitting their chins. I can't figure it out at all - the bikes are MTB types, and the frames look many sizes too small for the riders (standover would put the top tube about 3" above their knees). The only thing I can think of is that it's a kind of attempt at a return to the BMX bikes of my own youth...

You mean like this?

http://www.pointhappy.com/gcf/MeOnMagnaSm.jpg

I bought it in Santa Cruz at the Salvation Army last week. I was in Santa Cruz for 5 days and wanted something to ride. This was the only bike at the thrift stores that was rideable straight out of the store. It was fun. Most of downtown Santa Cruz is pretty flat so you can do most of the riding in the seat, though for hills you have to stand. After I was done with it, I donated it to the Bike Church, a local coop.

As far as returning to my youth, they didn't have BMX bikes when I was young, and that little bike is actually the first bike I've ever had with suspension and an aluminum frame.

You would think that a bicycle required double-clutching and goosing the throttle to shift, given the efforts made to avoid the task of shifting taken by some enthusiasts.

My problem is I always forget to shift down before a stop, so I end up trying to start in a higher gear than I'd like, and shift down after (inevitably making horrible noises). I have a derailleur - almost makes me want to get an internal hub that can shift while stopped!

I'm getting better at remembering though. (And no, I can't drive a manual-shift car)

My problem is I always forget to shift down before a stop, so I end up trying to start in a higher gear than I'd like, and shift down after (inevitably making horrible noises). I have a derailleur - almost makes me want to get an internal hub that can shift while stopped!

I'm getting better at remembering though. (And no, I can't drive a manual-shift car)

I can highly recommend internal gears and this is only one reason;) :p

Aaron:)

My problem is I always forget to shift down before a stop, so I end up trying to start in a higher gear than I'd like, and shift down after (inevitably making horrible noises). I have a derailleur - almost makes me want to get an internal hub that can shift while stopped!

I'm getting better at remembering though. (And no, I can't drive a manual-shift car)
Internal gear hubs! That's the ticket for shifting convenience. No fuss, no muss, no need to remember nuthin'. Your problem would be solved for good.

At least they're low riders, and not those "one of a million" "riced out" Jap bikes! :D


Long live the Rice Burners!

http://www.tradebit.com/usr/manual/pub/9002/HONDA-CB400F-1.jpg

I can highly recommend internal gears and this is only one reason;) :p

Aaron:)

+1......... I use a S/A 3 speed on my wife's modded R20 to ride to work and a S/A 8 speed on my highly modded R20 for blasting around on. Most younger guys don't even know what an internal gear hub is and look even more perplexed when you try to explain it to them, they look at the hub and think it's a single or fixed gear.:rolleyes:

Long live the Rice Burners!

and the German, um, sauerkraut-brewers ;)
http://www.cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/hercules/images/Hercules%20W2000%201974.jpg
gotta love the Wankel:D

and the rice-burning version:
http://www.suzukicycles.org/photos/suzuki-history/1977/1977_R5_rotary_450.jpg

But anyway your self.:rolleyes: I replied to two other posters (Not you) who specifically posted about the skill required/desired for standing on their pedals to ride or for extra power. Fine. Your posting is still silly. There are many good reasons people want to stand on the pedals for extra power.

Most younger guys don't even know what an internal gear hub is and look even more perplexed when you try to explain it to them, they look at the hub and think it's a single or fixed gear.:rolleyes:
But some know how to stand on the pedals and ride at the same time, woo-hoo!

But some know how to stand on the pedals and ride at the same time, woo-hoo!


:lol: :roflmao: :lol: :roflmao:

Definitely a generational issue. Old sit-down fogeys vs. young pedal stompers.

Definitely a generational issue. Old sit-down fogeys vs. young pedal stompers.
Don't you mean Wise-Old-Men-with-Years-of-Experience vis-à-vis Young-Punks-Who-Don't-Know-Poop-from-Shinola?;)

Don't you mean Wise-Old-Men-with-Years-of-Experience vis-à-vis Young-Punks-Who-Don't-Know-Poop-from-Shinola?;)
In your case, maybe. In my case, Wise Middle-aged-Men....what you said. :p

When climbing I stay in the saddle and spin, only rarely do I stand, then only if the gradient gets anything over vertical ;).
BUT if out on a loooong ride I will occassionaly stand to stretch the pins or if racing and attacking on a long hill, or at the start of a sprint, or balancing at the traffic lights, (even then I usually sit), or if my seat post bracket snaps.

I too tend to remain seated most of the time but stand up to accelerate from a stop or uphill since I ride a SS. Besides, it's always fun to see the looks on drivers' faces when you do a trackstand at a light on an old road bike with fenders and panniers. :D

As far as standing in the pedals goes, I got a lot of practice on a BMX bike as a child. I always find it amazing how I could seemingly ride for hours and hours on that little bike and never get tired.

Speaking of BMX bikes, since I live in an apartment and occasionally transport my rather large bike by car, I was toying with the crazy idea of turning a BMX into a compact commuter. I'm only 5'6" so I thought that with a long seat post I'd have good leg extension. I'd also likely add some clip on fenders, though I'm not sure a rack would be possible. :(

Of course, my other options would be to buy a bike rack for the girlfriend's car or buy a folding bike, but I thought a used BMX would be cheaper. Am I completely out to lunch? What says the forum? And before anyone asks, yes I checked both the Commuting and the BMX forums on this topic.

How about those Electra bikes (http://www.electrabike.com/06_new/flash_index.html) with "flat-foot technology"?
You're supposed to get good leg extension but still be able to put your foot flat on the ground. they have a weird geometry with a raked back seatpost, for one thing.

Anybody try one? Are they good for people who are scared to be high in the saddle?

How about those Electra bikes (http://www.electrabike.com/06_new/flash_index.html) with "flat-foot technology"?
You're supposed to get good leg extension but still be able to put your foot flat on the ground. they have a weird geometry with a raked back seatpost, for one thing.

Anybody try one? Are they good for people who are scared to be high in the saddle?

The Sun pedal forward bikes are nice. Great price too.

Speaking of BMX bikes, since I live in an apartment and occasionally transport my rather large bike by car, I was toying with the crazy idea of turning a BMX into a compact commuter. I'm only 5'6" so I thought that with a long seat post I'd have good leg extension. I'd also likely add some clip on fenders, though I'm not sure a rack would be possible. :(

Of course, my other options would be to buy a bike rack for the girlfriend's car or buy a folding bike, but I thought a used BMX would be cheaper. Am I completely out to lunch? What says the forum? And before anyone asks, yes I checked both the Commuting and the BMX forums on this topic.




If you don't want to buy an expensive folding bike, look for a 1970's Raleigh Twenty folding or non folding bike. You can get them fairly cheap...just add modern rims and tyres, the 3 speed Sturmey Archer hub works fine on a commuter or you can get adventurous and get an 8 speed. You can get heaps of modification info from the folding section on BFs. They're a blast to ride and they handle loaded panniers no problems......hey, my wife paced me behind our car at 50+ kmph. :eek: :eek:

How about those Electra bikes (http://www.electrabike.com/06_new/flash_index.html) with "flat-foot technology"?
I'm guessing you mean the Townies.
The Townies move the cranks about 6" forward, which is an improvement,,,, but it's not nearly forward enough. Ideally you'd want to be able to use the biggest widest saddle there was, and the Townie isn't quite there yet. Regular bicycle frame companies are limited in terms of what they can do inexpensively by the range of adjustment in the production tooling they have. This is why the Giant Revive costs so much--the frame had to be produced on custom tooling.


The Sun pedal forward bikes are nice. Great price too.
Not sure which ones you speak of here. The comfort bikes seem to be nothing special, the BB's only pushed about 3 inches forward of the seat tube, which isn't very much. Listed in the recumbents is the SunRay, which is a semi-recumbent bike that uses a recumbent-type seat. The Actionbent Mantaray is a very-similar design to the SunRay.
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The first commercial example of a performance bicycle with the cranks shifted far forward seems to be the Vision Thorougbred from around year 2000. Vision went out of business a couple years later and the only info left online of this model seems to be in the Hostelshoppe archives:
http://www.hostelshoppe.com/atp_archives/thoroughbred.pdf
Not very many Thoroughbreds were ever made, and they generally don't stay on the used market very long.

RANS has the sport series bikes available now; these are the most performance-oriented "flat-foot" bikes available in the US. I have a Fusion ($950) and it's quite nice, so much so that I've sunk a bunch of money into better parts for it since I got it:
http://www.ransbikes.com/Fusion07.htm
The RANS bikes come with a custom seat, and conventional cycling padded shorts aren't necessary or even much of a help.

Day6Bicycles makes a flat-footed bike for $650-$700:
http://www.day6bicycles.com/

Lightfoot makes the Surefoot bike, for either $800 or $1300 depending on the model:
http://www.lightfootcycles.com/surefoot.htm

One matter with the last two bicycles is that they may not be that good for any sort of aggressive riding. One of the problems with moving the pedals of a "regular" bicycle far forward is that when you pedal hard, you tend to slide backwards off the seat--so the seat either needs a seatback, or the handlebars must be rigid enough to pull hard on while pedaling.

Vision new this with the Thorougbred, because they used a long steerer tube and flat handlebars, so that the bars would be placed at the proper height for effective pulling and rigidity wouldn't be a problem. RANS uses shorter steerer tubes but the extension risers they use are rigid enough to withstand being pulled quite hard on during pedaling. ...Conversely, the Day6bicycles uses medium-height bars, and the Surefoot uses tall bars, and these would tend to slip in the stem if you pulled on them very hard--particularly the Surefoot.
~

Sure, lack of gears could improve strength training; and if that is your goal in cycling, go for it. So could under inflated tires, dragging brakes or over tight bearings. Or carrying cinder blocks in a back pack too. My goal is to make cycling as enjoyable and as easy as possible, my needs for comfort and ease outweigh any need for maximizing speed or strength training. A skillful/knowledgeable cyclist will get the equipment/use the techniques that fulfill their personal requirements and won't be swayed by the Conventional Wisdom.

As far as Fixed gear folk; if some people like to make life more difficult for themselves, or like to be different as a mark of honor, or enjoy masochistic pleasures, who am I to deny their fun?


I am obliged to point out here that the strength gains from cycling are very minimal, even on steep hills, since you essentially are able to perform and enormous amount of repetitions. This doesn't imply no strength gains, but maximal strength gains occur in about the 3-6 repetition range. What we commonly notice as strength gains are probably really stamina gains. You appear stronger because you can exert more force for a sustained period of time, rather than tiring more quickly and feeling labored.

If you want stronger legs you're far, far better off doing squats and calf raises a few times a week with pretty decent intensity and riding a bike with more appropriate gearing.

Speaking of BMX bikes, since I live in an apartment and occasionally transport my rather large bike by car, I was toying with the crazy idea of turning a BMX into a compact commuter. I'm only 5'6" so I thought that with a long seat post I'd have good leg extension. I'd also likely add some clip on fenders, though I'm not sure a rack would be possible. .

Why don't you add a little style. Go out and get a 20" Schwinn Speedster. It was the model that they made Sting Rays from. It should already have the fenders.