Foo - Diploma for deceased student? Thoughts?

Hi all. I would like to hear some opinions on a subject that has recently happened in my hometown.

A high school senior was fatally shot close to one month before graduation. At the time of his death, he was maintaining a "C" average. When the final grades were calculated and averaged, the student did not meet the requirements for graduation in two classes because of his death. The parents of the deceased student asked the school district to award a graduation diploma. The school board countered with an honorary diploma for which the parents refused.

Thoughts?

Hi all. I would like to hear some opinions on a subject that has recently happened in my hometown.

A high school senior was fatally shot close to one month before graduation. At the time of his death, he was maintaining a "C" average. When the final grades were calculated and averaged, the student did not meet the requirements for graduation in two classes because of his death. The parents of the deceased student asked the school district to award a graduation diploma. The school board countered with an honorary diploma for which the parents refused.

Thoughts?That's sad--seriously, I can't imagine the devastation they must be feeling. But while I can't put myself in their shoes, I also can't imagine asking for a diploma, or turning down a well-meant gesture like an honorary diploma, which was more than the student would have received if he'd lived through the school year, it seems.

Then again, grief makes people do strange things.

Hi all. I would like to hear some opinions on a subject that has recently happened in my hometown.

A high school senior was fatally shot close to one month before graduation. At the time of his death, he was maintaining a "C" average. When the final grades were calculated and averaged, the student did not meet the requirements for graduation in two classes because of his death. The parents of the deceased student asked the school district to award a graduation diploma. The school board countered with an honorary diploma for which the parents refused.

Thoughts?



They wanted to set a good example.. If you want to graduate, make sure that you don't go get yourself killed while you have a below C avg. It's pretty simple.

I really see no harm in issuing a diploma. It will help with closure for the parents. The student spent 12 years in school and is now denied a diploma because he died a month before - seems pretty cold and heartless to me. It's not like he's going to use it to go to college.

In the graduating class after me there was a senior who died at the beginning of the year in a car accident and they had her parents come up to get her diploma during graduation. The whole crowd gave a standing ovation - they were so proud. The student was an honors student but without the last year was probably short a few credits. Was a very touching moment for the students who knew her, teachers who taught her, and all the other parents who was in some way connected. When a student dies in a school it effects everyone, the ripple is pretty fierce. I lost four classmates by the time I graduated and a few others not too long afterwards.

They wanted to set a good example.. If you want to graduate, make sure that you don't go get yourself killed while you have a below C avg. It's pretty simple.

I agree , sad case, but why is this important to the parents at this point? I don`t mean to be cold but Why does a diploma matter at this point?

It matters as a gesture, and that's what the honorary diploma was. The fact they refused that is the evidence to their grief overriding reason.

You'd think this would be the least of their concerns.

what's the harm?

seems like a big gesture at little cost to comfort a family in need.

Where do you draw the line? Do you issue diplomas to deceased 10th graders who have a D average? A diploma is something that must be earned by meeting certian requirements. Don't meet then, no diploma. Real simple.

To issue a diploma in this situation would devalue those diplomas held by the students who actually earned them. Those parents can go suck eggs!

Then again, grief makes people do strange things.

+1

- honorary degree was the correct gesture, IMHO...

what's the harm?

seems like a big gesture at little cost to comfort a family in need.
+1. It's amazing how the "small" things are so important. The child is gone forever. The parents are seeking things that mark the accomplishment of that short life. Something they can hold, since he is just...gone. I totally understand, and agree with you and Air. This is not a slap in the face of students who "earned" it. This is a gesture to the parents, and an acknowledgement of perhaps the only significant undertaking of this young person's life. The parents will never see him hold down a job, meet that right woman, have his own home, raise a family. At best, they'll walk into his room and see a piece of paper, but it will mean so much to them. I guess I just feel my loss still too acutely, but I say give 'em the diploma. He's never gonna use it. The parents will cherish it as a symbol of what could have been for that boy.

Yep, you can't just ahnd out graduation diplomas for any reason...that would rob others of the value of theirs, as well as open the door for all kinds of screwed up situations:

"Oh, she broke up with her boyfriend of 3 years and was too depressed to do her studies"

"Oh, he was in rehab....but he was passing fine until he got high...."

"These snozzberries taste like snozzberries...."

....I'm not trying to mock anything, but I do see the logic behind the school board's reasoning....The student was borderline to begin with. Honorary was the best way to do this.

+1. It's amazing how the "small" things are so important. The child is gone forever. The parents are seeking things that mark the accomplishment of that short life. Something they can hold, since he is just...gone. I totally understand, and agree with you and Air. This is not a slap in the face of students who "earned" it. This is a gesture to the parents, and an acknowledgement of perhaps the only significant undertaking of this young person's life. The parents will never see him hold down a job, meet that right woman, have his own home, raise a family. At best, they'll walk into his room and see a piece of paper, but it will mean so much to them. I guess I just feel my loss still too acutely, but I say give 'em the diploma. He's never gonna use it. The parents will cherish it as a symbol of what could have been for that boy.
Addressing the thoughts, not attacking the thinker.

Yes, the child is gone and through no fault of his own I presume. This is sad and I feel for their loss. But the boy didn't 'accomplish' the criteria to recieve a diploma. There's always the yearbook photo, his drivers license, Boy Scout regalia, football letter, etc. if they need something tangible.

He could have been a Congressional Medal of Honor or Nobel Prize winner to should his family be given those awards too?

Could have been... :)

At the time of his death, he was maintaining a "C" average. When the final grades were calculated and averaged, the student did not meet the requirements for graduation in two classes because of his death.

As an academic, I tend to hold things like degrees and diplomas and such in pretty high regard. In my business, these things are the currency with which people are allowed to practice a specific craft, whether it be nuclear physics or medicine or medieval history or entrance into most skilled trades. That said, it seems to me, from the OP's post, that if he were not killed, he could have been on track to graduate, and at the least an honorary diploma would have been appropriate, and depending on the two outstanding requirements, perhaps a full diploma. What were these requirements? Were they final exams or term papers? Then I think the instructors should look at his previous grades in those two courses throughout the semester or year and make a determination from that. Also, were these major courses, or electives? The former carry more weight in most schools, and should be considered accordingly.

On the other hand, I do think it's fair and reasonmable and appropriate to award a posthumous (full, not "honorary"- whatever that means) diploma if these two requirements were relatively trivial.

In short, it's a matter of degree (pun intended). How much did the missing requirements count, how close was he to actually graduating, and if he had lived, would he have completed those requirements in time for graduation? These are the questions that need to be answered before the BOE can make a decision. I hope they did that- I can't imagine they made this decision without considerable thought.

I say just give it to the parents. Be an honorable person by giving something to the parents that they will hold dear to their hearts. Its not going to matter in the long run. But for the parents it will mean tons.

I say just give it to the parents. Be an honorable person by giving something to the parents that they will hold dear to their hearts. Its not going to matter in the long run. But for the parents it will mean tons.


What she said, not like it's going to be used to get into college, job, etc - more for the parents to remember their child with - they went through school with him as well.

I tend to agree with the "Give the family a diploma" crowd. It means nothing in the long run to the world at large and everything to the parents.

As to devaluing the diploma to other students? How? The child is NEVER going to enter the working world or carry on with higher education, so awarding a full diploma isn't going to dilute the standards in any way, shape or form.

It will however, give the parents a form of a memorial that their child wasn't without some measure of accomplishment in the world.

What exactly is wrong with this?

That's sad--seriously, I can't imagine the devastation they must be feeling. But while I can't put myself in their shoes, I also can't imagine asking for a diploma, or turning down a well-meant gesture like an honorary diploma, which was more than the student would have received if he'd lived through the school year, it seems.

Then again, grief makes people do strange things.
+1

For those of you in the "give them a diploma crowd".....isn't this what they tried with the honorary diploma? What's the difference between this and a "real" diploma? Either way it can't be used.

Where do you draw the line? Do you issue diplomas to deceased 10th graders who have a D average? A diploma is something that must be earned by meeting certian requirements. Don't meet then, no diploma. Real simple.

To issue a diploma in this situation would devalue those diplomas held by the students who actually earned them. Those parents can go suck eggs!

It's not worth much anyway. It's worth more to a college than it is in the actual world. In the work world, it's worth about the same as a GED.

It's not worth much anyway. It's worth more to a college than it is in the actual world. In the work world, it's worth about the same as a GED.
I wasn't talking it's intrinsic value in the job market, which at this point is zero. Hence a moot point. But rather the extrinsic value of the achievement to the one who has achieved it.

If my kid died...the last ****ing thing on my mind would be a diploma.

Right. Your first would be "We gots meat tonight!" :roflmao:

Right. Your first would be "We gots meat tonight!" :roflmao:
lol :rolleyes:

seriously...what the hell is wrong with people...focusing on a trivial thing like proof of the education of my dead kid. these people need psychological help.

If my kid died...the last ****ing thing on my mind would be a diploma.
Do you really believe you would have any idea what you might think? Your mind often works weird in those situations. I would give them a little slack in that regard. I mean maybe the kid knew he was going to struggle to graduate and it was the biggest goal in his life.

If my kid died...the last ****ing thing on my mind would be a diploma.
You may very well react that way. But my personal experience says: Don't be surprised at what does and doesn't seem important when that actually happens.... You'd be amazed. :o :(

1. immense grief is not a get-out clause for silly reasoning, especially when you want to push it on others.
2. for those who apparently didn't read the OP correctly, an honorary diploma was already offered.
3. the "what harm would it do" crowd: do you feel the same way about tipping? Because when people use that reasoning to justify tipping it really boils me. The concept is the same here.

The "where's the harm" crowd is pandering to silly parents. And yes, they ARE silly. They refused an honorary diploma ferchrissakes.

seriously...what the hell is wrong with people...focusing on a trivial thing like proof of the education of my dead kid. these people need psychological help.
they probably will need help to go through thier grieving time, yes...

and as far as the diploma is concern, I wouldnt be so quick to judge them..

some said "if" my kid died, that's just it, "if" ....This didnt happend to you. if it does happend, and I pray to god it doesnt to any of us, then only then can we understand exactly why this family wants something that may or may not make sense to all but is important to them.

My brother died right after high school, the first thing I wanted was his hat, I cant remember why I sat there with his hat in the dark every night, I cant remember why I picked his hat..

My mom held on to every little pictures he made her as a kid and went through them over and over again.
We dont know the whole story here, why does the diploma means so much to them, but we should respect the fact that somehow it does.

I went back into the archives and did a little more research.

*The student passed away 19 days before graduation.

*The two classes the were required for graduation were chemistry and U.S. history.

*The student passed away from being fatally shot from what police are calling a "weapons transaction".

Quote from the district superintendent-

“One of the ways you build a culture of excellence, which is what I am trying to do, is to consistently have high standards,” Thompson said. “From my point of view, it diminishes the value of it. It becomes the sympathy award. While I certainly understand the family suffered a tragic loss, at the end of the day, I have to uphold the integrity of the diploma.”

Thoughts?

I support the superintendent's decission. It's what I've been saying all along.

Do you really believe you would have any idea what you might think? Your mind often works weird in those situations. I would give them a little slack in that regard. I mean maybe the kid knew he was going to struggle to graduate and it was the biggest goal in his life.



You may very well react that way. But my personal experience says: Don't be surprised at what does and doesn't seem important when that actually happens.... You'd be amazed. :o :(

perhaps I was quick to judge the reasoning.
I apologize.

I went back into the archives and did a little more research.

*The student passed away 19 days before graduation.

*The two classes the were required for graduation were chemistry and U.S. history.

*The student passed away from being fatally shot from what police are calling a "weapons transaction".

Quote from the district superintendent-

“One of the ways you build a culture of excellence, which is what I am trying to do, is to consistently have high standards,” Thompson said. “From my point of view, it diminishes the value of it. It becomes the sympathy award. While I certainly understand the family suffered a tragic loss, at the end of the day, I have to uphold the integrity of the diploma.”

Thoughts?

perhaps the student should have been studying instead of selling or buying guns.

perhaps the student should have been studying instead of selling or buying guns.
+1

Now that this information comes to light...I think they were generous in offering the honorary diploma.

+1

Now that this information comes to light...I think they were generous in offering the honorary diploma.

+1 on that!

note to self; when in need of emotional support, avoid bf.net like the plaque!

It is never easy to lose a loved one. People deal with grief in different ways. The parents refused an honorary diploma and who am I to judge them.

I believe the school acted appropriately by offering the honorary diploma.

Are the parents planning to try forcing the school into giving as diploma?

note to self; when in need of emotional support, avoid bf.net like the plaque!
Meh, the folks here are quite supportive when one is emotionally fragile. They're just also rather opinionated. ;)

I loves me my Foo family! :love:

Meh, the folks here are quite supportive when one is emotionally fragile. They're just also rather opinionated. ;)

I loves me my Foo family! :love:

hey...I resemble that remark! :rolleyes: :p

hey...I resemble that remark! :rolleyes: :p
Yeah....you and that remark do have similar eyes.

Where do you draw the line? Do you issue diplomas to deceased 10th graders who have a D average? A diploma is something that must be earned by meeting certian requirements. Don't meet then, no diploma. Real simple.

To issue a diploma in this situation would devalue those diplomas held by the students who actually earned them. Those parents can go suck eggs!

Agreed.

The honorary diploma was the right gesture.

I don't understand why dying makes someone a hero in and of itself. Or why it entitles someone to something they didn't earn.

Yeah....you and that remark do have similar eyes.
:lol:

I went back into the archives and did a little more research.

*The student passed away 19 days before graduation.

*The two classes the were required for graduation were chemistry and U.S. history.

*The student passed away from being fatally shot from what police are calling a "weapons transaction".

Quote from the district superintendent-

“One of the ways you build a culture of excellence, which is what I am trying to do, is to consistently have high standards,” Thompson said. “From my point of view, it diminishes the value of it. It becomes the sympathy award. While I certainly understand the family suffered a tragic loss, at the end of the day, I have to uphold the integrity of the diploma.”

Thoughts?


Well, this certainly puts the whole thing in a different light, although I'm not sure what "weapons transaction" means, exactly. Is this a "gun deal gone bad" or a drug deal gone bad where he was shot, or something else? Was it an illegal transaction? Evidently, the fact that the student died in the course of a "weapons transaction" colored the superintendent's decision, and I'd bet that so too did the recent tragedy at VCU. Those students were completely innocent victims, while it's arguable that this student was not. In any event, the super made a value judgement here, and one that was not inappropriate, in my view. If the kid was involved in an illegal activity at the time, why should he, or his parents, be rewarded with a posthumous diploma.

I'd feel very differently about this if he had been killed in a crash or a drive-by where he was an innocent party.

I may be a bit stubborn but I'd like to see more of the backstory as it comes out. Did he buy a gun because he was mugged and felt the need for protection? Or was he a dealer and a proponent of violence?

Also, disregarding that last bit of information (let's say he was in a car accident for the moment) - if his grades were on track to finish I still wouldn't see a reason to deny that diploma. Was he passing and do his teachers feel he would have passed? If he was failing everything and would have required summer school or another year than an honorary diploma would be appropriate and a gift.

I saw too many classmates when I was in high school, I admit I'm probably skewed a bit.

However if it was one of the bullies I wouldn't have shed a tear and would have no problem denying it.

Here is a link to one of the nine stories/updates on this tragic situation.

Diploma (http://www.rrstar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070613/NEWS03/106130023)

Tough crowd. I'm a university administrator and we issue diplomas to anyone who dies while enrolled. I fail to see how it devalues the degree since I am assuming the dead person isn't going to be competing for a job with any of the current living degree holders. Its a nice gesture to the family.

And you also don't end up with the type of publicity that this idiot administrator is now getting.

Addressing the thoughts, not attacking the thinker.

Yes, the child is gone and through no fault of his own I presume. This is sad and I feel for their loss. But the boy didn't 'accomplish' the criteria to recieve a diploma. There's always the yearbook photo, his drivers license, Boy Scout regalia, football letter, etc. if they need something tangible.

He could have been a Congressional Medal of Honor or Nobel Prize winner to should his family be given those awards too?

Could have been... :)

Yes and no. People frequently die while earning the medal of Honor but they did earn it while alive and the next of kin can be given the medal. For the Nobel you may have done the work that merits the award but if you are not alive the day it is awarded, tough luck.

If your going to demand something in public and through the press you better make damn sure you have "clean hands"

an honorary diploma, which was more than the student would have received if he'd lived through the school year, it seems.

I think you misunderstood the OP. Had he lived he would have graduated. It was only because he missed the last month that he didn't.

I think you misunderstood the OP. Had he lived he would have graduated. It was only because he missed the last month that he didn't.


So what is the cut-off? If 1 month is okay, then how about 3 months? How about a year? What if he had straight Ds? How do we know he would have graduated? What psychic was consulted? Perhaps he was really planning on going into the illegal drug biz and dropping out of HS. Does that change things? Does it change things if he was a model citizen? What is a model citizen?

We have objective criteria for a reason. When we give people things they have not earned it devalues that thing. It also makes it nearly impossible to then decide who is worthy and who isn't of a diploma that doesn't even end up meaning anything anyway because you no longer have criteria. It becomes a meaningless piece of paper.

And a HS diploma is already a meaningless piece of paper when you factor in how many kids end up with one who can't even read. Why devalue it even further?

Or perhaps, since it already means nothing, why not just hand them out in cracker jack boxes? I mean, people somewhere are sad, we must help by handing out meaningless pieces of paper to boost their self esteem. To hell with the people who actually worked hard and accomplished goals in their life. To hell with the people who have enough sense not to be involved with shady characters and criminals.

Wow, from some of the comments here, it is clear to me that several thread participants have neither ever had children, nor had a loved one die. Suffice it to say that it is a life-changing event, for the worse, when a child of yours dies. Until this happens to you, you have no idea how you will react, and there are a wide range of ways to handle grief.

So what is the cut-off? If 1 month is okay, then how about 3 months? How about a year? What if he had straight Ds? How do we know he would have graduated? What psychic was consulted? Perhaps he was really planning on going into the illegal drug biz and dropping out of HS. Does that change things? Does it change things if he was a model citizen? What is a model citizen?

We have objective criteria for a reason. When we give people things they have not earned it devalues that thing. It also makes it nearly impossible to then decide who is worthy and who isn't of a diploma that doesn't even end up meaning anything anyway because you no longer have criteria. It becomes a meaningless piece of paper.

And a HS diploma is already a meaningless piece of paper when you factor in how many kids end up with one who can't even read. Why devalue it even further?

Or perhaps, since it already means nothing, why not just hand them out in cracker jack boxes? I mean, people somewhere are sad, we must help by handing out meaningless pieces of paper to boost their self esteem. To hell with the people who actually worked hard and accomplished goals in their life. To hell with the people who have enough sense not to be involved with shady characters and criminals.


Wow indeed. Misses the point entirely. But its easy to rant on the internet.