"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Take 2: This "Cat 6" discussion I started....

Had a long talk with "Coach Jerry" today, who explained a lot about this to me. He is involved in organizing races here, and has been for some time now.

I asked him why it's usually a 4/5 race...because IF there was actually an entry-level "5" event, then that would be fine with me.

He agreed that 4/5 can be intimidating and not a good start place for racers. He also agreed that it should be more important to allow these entry-level racers a place to get started in a 'true' 5 event. But it's not a perfect world....

Why doesn't it happen?
The promoters.

They want large fields.
They want programs that aren't too long.

How to change it?
Get a groundswell of people like me that would like to get into a true "5" event as beginner racers to voice that to the people who promote races.

Solution: A whole race day geared at development. Senior 5s, Master 5s, Women 4s and 5s and Juniors.

Solution: A whole race day geared at development. Senior 5s, Master 5s, Women 4s and 5s and Juniors.

If you could sell it to the promoters it could work....but they need to know that the #'s are out there to fill the fields, otherewise they have no interest.

I don't think that's good for the growth of the sport in the big picture though.

Why doesn't it happen?
The promoters.

They want large fields.
They want programs that aren't too long.

How to change it?
Get a groundswell of people like me that would like to get into a true "5" event as beginner racers to voice that to the people who promote races.

That's pretty backwards, but I'm not surprised. If they wanted larger fields, they'd find a way to get more people involved. To get more people involved, you need to open it up to more new people. New people, (intimidated, unsure if they're ready, or otherwise anxious about getting out the first time), are going to be the last people contacting race promoters to advocate a true citizens/beginners class. Promoters should be encouraging growth and participation by welcoming more new folks in.

we dont have this issue in the DC area. plenty of 5 only races here so i dont think this is as a big an issue as you are making it. supply and demand

That's pretty backwards, but I'm not surprised. If they wanted larger fields, they'd find a way to get more people involved. To get more people involved, you need to open it up to more new people. New people, (intimidated, unsure if they're ready, or otherwise anxious about getting out the first time), are going to be the last people contacting race promoters to advocate a true citizens/beginners class. Promoters should be encouraging growth and participation by welcoming more new folks in.

Shemp....
That was EXACTLY my argument to Jerry. But for whatever reason, the powers that be are not interested at that level. Short-sighted I think.

I'm a promoter and also advise promoters on a very infrequent basis.

Cat 5 races are actually good for promoters if they have a lot of time. By definition you can't give anything worth anything (money, merchandise) to 5's - so a no-prize list Cat 5 race is a requirement. The promoter collects money and keeps virtually all of it.

There is a 50 rider limit, but that's okay. With a lot of time, you have two Cat 5 races.

With 4/5 races, you're limited to 75 but now you're obligated to give prizes.

If you're time limited, then a 4/5 race might be the only way to have both the 4's and the 5's race.

The series I promote is designed for early season legs. It's geared towards 3's, 4's, and 5's. We short under 40 year old Cat 1-2's as they only have one race. Pros only have one race too. We know that our paying racers are Cat 3-5 for the most part, and we know that if given the opportunity, many of them will race twice. So we make it possible for this to happen.

The only way to change a promoter's mind is to have a lot of racers ask for something. It may be that the promoter, looking at the field sizes, thinks things are perfect, but it may not be the case.

For example, we always combined the M40/Women/Junior in one field. Last year we had a "new" race, and we tried two different fields - M30 and Womens (on alternating weeks). We got a lot of women and killed our Pro/1/2/3 field as the Cat 1-2 M30's chose one race or another. This year we had a separate women's race and it was very successful. It took three years to do this - one to think about it, another to try it, and a third to make it permanent.

Promoters ultimately need a decent ratio of racers per field. If you can convince the promoter they'll get enough racers to not lose money, the promoter will think about it.

a promoter and a racer,
cdr

*edit* I should add that a promoter that emphasized 4's and 5's has struggled for two years, even though he has a 3's race. Without the 2's and a second 3's race, it's difficult to attract teammates of the beginner racers.

Driving an hour or two (sometimes more, sometimes much less, of course) and paying thirty bucks to ride for thirty minutes doesn't appeal to a lot of people. You don't even get free bagels or a t-shirt or anything. And your race, for all intents and purposes, could be over before the first corner.

But take an event like the Horrible Hilly Hundred that our friends to the south just completed. That's a challenge too... much more challenging than a 50 minute criterium, IMO. And it's also an event... one that lasts hours. You get your money's worth, so to speak. And no one cares if you come in first or last. It's something to participate and finish... like a marathon or a triathlon. In a criterium, if you're not in the money (to paraphrase Ricky Bobby), you're last. I'm 'last' a lot. I enjoy criteriums, but that's me.

So the people, some of them strong, very capable riders, who enjoy longer events like the HHH have no real motivation to do a shorter race where they might end up with trashed bikes and a trip to the hospital.


JMHO.

Hip it seems to be the conundrum of cycling and racing specifically: We want more racers to grow the sport and make it better but do plenty to discourage it and little to promote it. They really need to bridge over to some of the folks who only do challenge rides and such. Considering the huge amount of coin even non-competitive riders drop, you'd think there would be a little business sense in there somewhere. Then again, there's a reason road races are pushed out the B.F.E. these days.

^Agreed.

And as carpediemracing pointed out, as did Coach Jerry to me today, promoters would get to keep ALL the entry cash in a "5"...no prizes. What's not to be interested in there from a promoter's standpoint?

From a racer's standpoint, no prizes is fine to me because the reward is actually trying a race as a beginner in a fair "5" field.

what is a fair 5 field?

what is a fair 5 field?

A) First of all, it's for 5's only, not 4/5's. This means that it really is an entry-level, beginner race.
B) There is a system in place that forces upgrades to cut down on sandbaggers as well.

face it... its never going to be easy. stop making excuses and just go race.

What about triathletes/mountain bikers/velodrome racers who may be fit but just don't have the experience to race as 3's or 4's?

face it... its never going to be easy. stop making excuses and just go race.

See here's part of the problem right here....

I'M NOT MAKING EXCUSES!!!!!!!
I'm simply trying to better the particpation in the sport...fix something that from the outside anyone with half a brain could see is not working as well as it could....at least not around here.

i guess i just dont see it as a problem. shrug

i guess i just dont see it as a problem. shrug

No, that's cool....and that's because it isn't a problem in your neck of the woods I guess.

The real irony in all this is that as 'recursive' pointed out earlier, there actually IS a Cat 5 only race as part of an event being held about 40 miles from where I live....and I can't race this weekend. :(

I dont think it was a problem if there were no races for cat 5s. If the races here were mostly 4/5 the only problem I would have is how fast they sell out.

I've wondered the same thing about 4/5's. I also understand that it has to do with wanting to keep the field large instead of having 4 or 5 individual races going on. At one race earlier this year in WA State, the wife of one of my team mates was telling me that she (as a Cat 4 lady) ended up in a race where ALL of the women's fields were combined. In other words, 4's were racing with 1's and all were graded as if they were the same.

To me, that sounds like a waste of an entry fee.

I've wondered the same thing about 4/5's. I also understand that it has to do with wanting to keep the field large instead of having 4 or 5 individual races going on. At one race earlier this year in WA State, the wife of one of my team mates was telling me that she (as a Cat 4 lady) ended up in a race where ALL of the women's fields were combined. In other words, 4's were racing with 1's and all were graded as if they were the same.

To me, that sounds like a waste of an entry fee.


if its a difference between 2 or 3 cat 4 women racing against each other or 20 1/2/3/4 women whats more of a waste?

Dude... If you spent as much time racing as you do typing on your keyboard, you'd be a Cat 3 by now.

A) First of all, it's for 5's only, not 4/5's. This means that it really is an entry-level, beginner race.
B) There is a system in place that forces upgrades to cut down on sandbaggers as well.
Just doesn't seem feasible.

A) There really isn't that much of a marked difference between 4's and 5's, in terms of fitness. It's really a short jump. 10 mass starts, that's it.

b) There will always be sandbaggers. We all deal with it. Unless race results are consolidated and universially reported, there's no way to track people perfectly.

I'd be very interested to know the rules for all of this.
I'm an over 40 type and would like to try some crits, but have no clue as to how.
There is a summer series within a couple miles of where I live, but like i said,
how does one get into it?

I also don't want to be racing a bunch of hyper-fit 18 year olds.
A noob class would be the thing for me.

Anyway, any info would be really nice.
Thanks!

I'd be very interested to know the rules for all of this.
I'm an over 40 type and would like to try some crits, but have no clue as to how.
There is a summer series within a couple miles of where I live, but like i said,
how does one get into it?

I also don't want to be racing a bunch of hyper-fit 18 year olds.
A noob class would be the thing for me.

Anyway, any info would be really nice.
Thanks!

Where do you live? In Fl, just go to www.floridacycling.com

We almost always have cat5 only races.

I Live in Seattle, Wa.
The crits near me are at Seward Park, which is just east of me.
Anyone have any ideas?

Practice races seem better for beginners than 4/5 races. We have some here in Madison. There are some in other places, I'm sure, too.

How to change it?
Get a groundswell of people like me that would like to get into a true "5" event as beginner racers to voice that to the people who promote races.

I'm not sure I agree, but let's assume for a moment that this statement is true. The only way you are going to do that is to consistently fill (overflow...have waiting lists) for any existing combined 4/5 events that might be there now.

Indeed, race promoters want the fields to be as full as possible, so they can maximize profits. They have to pay out, whether the field is the minimum or max. But they profit more when it's maxed out. If there were not maximum field sizes set by USCF/USA Cycling, I guarantee some idiot promoter would come up with some kind of 1,000 person Pro/1/2/3/4/5 field and pay out 10 deep. I suspect stuff like that is the reason the Category system was devised to begin with.

But step back a minute. Cat 5 is the entry point...for everyone. That means, in a Cat 5 race, you may encounter people whose true ability level is Cat 3 or maybe even better than that. But because of the way the Category system is set up, everyone has to start there, so you never know who you're going to be up against. And it's like that all the way up the ranks. A Cat 4 field may consist of a lot of people whose true ability is Cat 2, but they have to put in their time and get their upgrades. I have found that even in Masters 4s, there is a significant presence of former 3s and higher, who have downgraded because they are "no longer competitive" in that category. Is it "fair"? Maybe, maybe not, but that's the way it is.

It will never be "fair" in the sense that you can come up with some system that guarantees people of some ability level will always be able to finish with the pack -- someone will always figure out a way to sandbag and make life difficult for newcomers.

I suspect a number of the same folks who complain about idiot newbie riders causing problems are ironically the same folks who don't think there should be a true citizen/cat5 to introduce new riders to the sport.

Had a long talk with "Coach Jerry" today, who explained a lot about this to me. He is involved in organizing races here, and has been for some time now.

I asked him why it's usually a 4/5 race...because IF there was actually an entry-level "5" event, then that would be fine with me.

He agreed that 4/5 can be intimidating and not a good start place for racers. He also agreed that it should be more important to allow these entry-level racers a place to get started in a 'true' 5 event. But it's not a perfect world....

Why doesn't it happen?
The promoters.

They want large fields.
They want programs that aren't too long.

How to change it?
Get a groundswell of people like me that would like to get into a true "5" event as beginner racers to voice that to the people who promote races.

call your local radio station and get them to talk about it.

All this talk about making bicycle racing 'fair' is like a discussion about making war 'nice'.

If you want a kinder, gentler cycling experience go to your local Bicycle Touring Club and go on the friggin 'B' ride. There will be a deli stop and donuts will be served.

All this talk about making bicycle racing 'fair' is like a discussion about making war 'nice'.

If you want a kinder, gentler cycling experience go to your local Bicycle Touring Club and go on the friggin 'B' ride. There will be a deli stop and donuts will be served.

Tell them Pcaddy!


http://homedir-c.libsyn.com/podcasts/66627ed2725a3432067c73f93718a633/467a3994/myleftwing/images/Network_rage.jpg
(http://img671.libsyn.com/img671/4721009b2c2d125482f23d791a5ccfb9/467a39c5/8368/3969/Mad_As_Hell.mp3)

He agreed that 4/5 can be intimidating and not a good start place for racers. He also agreed that it should be more important to allow these entry-level racers a place to get started in a 'true' 5 event. But it's not a perfect world....



I'd rather race in the 4/5's than just the 5's.....things just seem a bit smoother, as there's usually a pretty good mix of both cats (around here anyway), and I think it may intimidate some of the 5's into not doing anything really dumb.

I suspect a number of the same folks who complain about idiot newbie riders causing problems are ironically the same folks who don't think there should be a true citizen/cat5 to introduce new riders to the sport.

how would adding another cat change this? Other riders in those newbie fields would still complain.

Dude... If you spent as much time racing as you do typing on your keyboard, you'd be a Cat 3 by now.

Nah...I do most of my best typing while on the air at work!

All this talk about making bicycle racing 'fair' is like a discussion about making war 'nice'.

If you want a kinder, gentler cycling experience go to your local Bicycle Touring Club and go on the friggin 'B' ride. There will be a deli stop and donuts will be served.

....again, for the how many-eth time....that's NOT what I want.

You'd be making it more of a PITA for talented riders who need not be racing below cat3. Make cat6 elective and permanent.

You'd be making it more of a PITA for talented riders who need not be racing below cat3. Make cat6 elective and permanent.
Elective, sure. Permanent? I don't know. Win too much and you're automatically moved up. Decide you want more of a challenge, make an appeal. That might work.

You'd be making it more of a PITA for talented riders who need not be racing below cat3. Make cat6 elective and permanent.

even better, stage all of the cat6 races in Guantanamo Bay.

serious mischief maker

Elective, sure. Permanent? I don't know. Win too much and you're automatically moved up. Decide you want more of a challenge, make an appeal. That might work.

While I can sympathize with the op, it is racing after all. Aligning the entire field to the lowest common denominator isn't really the intent given we have cat5 now. Not ripping the op, but what is the proposed difference between 5 and 6 again?

The only other option is to waive certain riders like semi-pro mountain bikers from cat5 maybe cat4. These guys don't want to be there either and the officials have the power to do this, but to be fair to everyone they don't. So, what is more fair? Not sure, but racing with guys much better than you isn't a bad thing.

So, what is more fair? Not sure, but racing with guys much better than you isn't a bad thing.
I agree. And around here the 4s race with the 5s. Even during big events like Superweek. So we usually have larger fields, which is a good thing.

I don't see a real reason that races couldn't have one citizen's race - a twenty to thirty minute race with an open field where anyone who wants to give it a shot can give it a shot. Not USCF related, no points, no prizes, very early in the morning. More races mean more money for the club anyway. And the guys who show up to a Cat 5 race only to get dropped one lap in can race in a less intense atmosphere.

If people want to keep racing, they can either move up to Cat 5, or they stay in the citizen's class. Obviously this race would be entirely up to the individual club since it would have nothing to do with the USCF.

Around here, a lot of the bigger events do have separate 5 classes, that run by themselves. We even have cat 4 women's races separate from the Women's open events at a few races. It's nice to see actually. There are usually some sandbaggers who run away and win... but no big deal. They never pay money to the 5 races, just some medals or trophies.

Here in Austin we normally have two cat 5 races and a 35+ cat 4/5 race and they are full.

Ours are pretty full too. The Land Park Cat 5 race sold out in a half hour. And so my only option that day was in the Masters 35+ race that was open to all cats. Talk about being in over my head!

Anyway, I like the idea of practice crits. There's an early bird series in the East Bay that seems to be well attended. It might be worth it to have a mid-summer practice series as well since bike racing just doesn't seem to be on the radar of the racing-curious until the weather warms up.