Bicycle Mechanics - 2008 Sora...

http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/publish/content/cycle/seh/nl/en/news___info/news/new_sora_groupset.html

It's a shame they are still keeping Sora held back in the brifters.

fascinating. the groupset looks really nice, quite pretty. and then it has the Sora-specific design of the levers. Why? Shimano used to have their lowest road group (RSX) with standard-design STI levers.
I'm still curious why Shimano introduced the different design in Sora, their lowest road group for the past few years. Is it
cheaper to produce? (possible, but doubtful)
intentional down-engineering to make something worse, and give impetus to upgrade to higher groups?
actually preferable for the sort of people who'll be riding Sora-equipped bikes? (possible, I know that some people like the Sora design better than typical Shimano STI levers, and people riding Sora bikes are, on average, doing a different sort of riding than people riding Ultegra)

fascinating. the groupset looks really nice, quite pretty. and then it has the Sora-specific design of the levers. Why? Shimano used to have their lowest road group (RSX) with standard-design STI levers.
I'm still curious why Shimano introduced the different design in Sora, their lowest road group for the past few years. Is it
cheaper to produce? (possible, but doubtful)
intentional down-engineering to make something worse, and give impetus to upgrade to higher groups?
actually preferable for the sort of people who'll be riding Sora-equipped bikes? (possible, I know that some people like the Sora design better than typical Shimano STI levers, and people riding Sora bikes are, on average, doing a different sort of riding than people riding Ultegra)


Probably cheraper in the sence of a few cents. Down engineering seems likely.... The preferable bit is questionable... My girlfriend is a very casual rider (Heck, typically keeps her hands on the cross levers I put on her handlebars...) but prefers the 105s.

But who knows, maybe some people find the same direction shifts counterintuitive.

I personally love the Sora thumb shifters. Their the most crisp shifting I've ever use. The only drawback is that you can't shift from the drops. But who am I kidding, I ride probably like 80% on the hoods.

Maybe they think that by using campag style thumbshifters only on the lowest group, they make campag seem less good.

http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/publish/content/cycle/seh/nl/en/news___info/news/new_sora_groupset.html

It's a shame they are still keeping Sora held back in the brifters.

I tend to look at it the other way. Sora brifters shift similar to Campagnolo. It's a shame that Shimano is holding back everything but Sora. It's too bad that Shimano uses their best engineered brifter on their lowest level group.

Maybe it's a secret Japanese plan to slowly introduce the world to the superior Campagnolo style shifting. They'll start at the bottom and slowly integrate thumb shifters upwards. Eventually there will be thumb shifters on Dura Ace. Or, maybe I'll just stop dreaming of Campy world domination. Seems like Shimano has become the Toyota of the bicycle world. :D

Tim

9-speed, huh?

Does this mean that Shimano has officially rendered 8-speed basically extinct? Some of you may think it's silly, but that really upsets me. I am personally a fan of 8-speed. The durability, longevity...yet adequate versatility of an 8 speed drivetrain are great for my commuter. I LIKE the fact that the chain is a bit beefier. Are we soon to have everything in 10 speed? It may seem bizarre to some here, but I ride 8 speed by choice.

Hmmmph. I'm a bit upset now.

I personally love the Sora thumb shifters. Their the most crisp shifting I've ever use. The only drawback is that you can't shift from the drops. But who am I kidding, I ride probably like 80% on the hoods.

+1

I like the 8 sp, find the shifting very slick. I modified the buttons so I can shift from the drops.

fascinating. the groupset looks really nice, quite pretty. and then it has the Sora-specific design of the levers. Why? Shimano used to have their lowest road group (RSX) with standard-design STI levers.
I'm still curious why Shimano introduced the different design in Sora, their lowest road group for the past few years. Is it
cheaper to produce? (possible, but doubtful)
intentional down-engineering to make something worse, and give impetus to upgrade to higher groups?
actually preferable for the sort of people who'll be riding Sora-equipped bikes? (possible, I know that some people like the Sora design better than typical Shimano STI levers, and people riding Sora bikes are, on average, doing a different sort of riding than people riding Ultegra)

That does look nice! Sora has been my favorite STI setup, aside from the fact that it had not been available in 9-speed.

I greatly prefer the Sora/Campagnolo style shift interface to the other Shimano models, because it is a different motion for upshifting than for downshifting. I find this reduces confusion.

The Sora brifters also have a unique advantage: they're the only drop-bar brake levers with a reach adjustment, making them THE best choice for riders with short fingers.

The biggest problem with Sora is dealing with snobbery and the stigma of low price.

Sheldon "Soraphile" Brown

+---------------------------------------------------------+
| The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, |
| as well as the poor, to sleep under the bridges, |
| to beg in the streets, and to steal bread. |
| --Anatole France |
+---------------------------------------------------------+

So where will we be in a few more years. All groups are 10 speed? Meaning that now I have to replace all my hubs and rebuild my wheels when my last compatible brifter breaks?

Will my choices be cheap 10 speed that has serious durability issues, and expensive 10 speed that has silly prices for the riding that I do?

Yes, the new group LOOKS nice...but I'm getting sour about everything going to 10 speed. Maybe I'm just turning into a grumpy old man before my time.

Shimano still makes STI shifters for 7 and 8 speeds, in their "high quality components" (not part of a group, but usually 105 or Ultegra-level) category. Cheaper mountain bikes will probably continue to use 8-speed gearing for a few more years.

If I build a touring bike, it'll probably have 8-speed with bar-end shifters.

So where will we be in a few more years. All groups are 10 speed? Meaning that now I have to replace all my hubs and rebuild my wheels when my last compatible brifter breaks?

Will my choices be cheap 10 speed that has serious durability issues, and expensive 10 speed that has silly prices for the riding that I do?

Yes, the new group LOOKS nice...but I'm getting sour about everything going to 10 speed. Maybe I'm just turning into a grumpy old man before my time.You're imagining a problem that doesn't exist.

Shimano 10 speed cassettes fit the same hubs used for 8- and 9-speed setups. Campagnolo 10 speed cassettes fit 9-speed hubs. No need to replace your hubs or rebuild your wheels.

To convert a Shimano 8- or 9-speed bike to 10-speed all you need is:

•10-speed shifters.

•10-speed cassette

•10-speed chain

•10-speed handlebar tape. (Rumor has it that 9-speed handlebar tape works too...)

Sheldon "Sora Doesn't Come In 10-speed" Brown

+----------------------------------------------------------+
| The people who live in a Golden Age usually go around |
| complaining how yellow everything looks. |
| -- Randall Jarrell |
+----------------------------------------------------------+

So where will we be in a few more years. All groups are 10 speed? Meaning that now I have to replace all my hubs and rebuild my wheels when my last compatible brifter breaks?

Will my choices be cheap 10 speed that has serious durability issues, and expensive 10 speed that has silly prices for the riding that I do?

Yes, the new group LOOKS nice...but I'm getting sour about everything going to 10 speed. Maybe I'm just turning into a grumpy old man before my time.


If you had Campy, you could rebuild those shifters.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the new "optical gear display." I'd think this would be the biggest upgrade for the entry-level users they're marketed for. I'll even admit to finding that handy on occasion myself.

Scott

Shimano 10 speed cassettes fit the same hubs used for 8- and 9-speed setups.
I was of the opinion that 10 speed cassettes required their own hub, but 8 and 9 were compatible. I stand corrected. However, why do hubs typically specify 8/9 speed, or 10 speed? I don't believe I've ever seen 8/9/10 speed listed for a hub.




•10-speed handlebar tape. (Rumor has it that 9-speed handlebar tape works too...)

:D

However, why do hubs typically specify 8/9 speed, or 10 speed? I don't believe I've ever seen 8/9/10 speed listed for a hub.



I know very little about ten speed stuff, because I've never used it. But the last three or four Shimano freehubs I've bought were listed as 8/9/10 speed compatible-

If you had Campy, you could rebuild those shifters.


That's what I've done for a few friends. I personally use my Campy Record front and Dura-Ace back by choice... at least on my high mileage roadie. My left hand seems more comfortable on Campy. And, I like the flick action for my right...call me crazy.

fascinating. the groupset looks really nice, quite pretty. and then it has the Sora-specific design of the levers. Why? Shimano used to have their lowest road group (RSX) with standard-design STI levers.
I'm still curious why Shimano introduced the different design in Sora, their lowest road group for the past few years. Is it
cheaper to produce? (possible, but doubtful)
intentional down-engineering to make something worse, and give impetus to upgrade to higher groups?
actually preferable for the sort of people who'll be riding Sora-equipped bikes? (possible, I know that some people like the Sora design better than typical Shimano STI levers, and people riding Sora bikes are, on average, doing a different sort of riding than people riding Ultegra)


I'd guess options 2 and 3. First off, it's intentional market segmentation. They don't want to give up on the low-end component market, but they want to avoid cannibalizing their more expensive groups as much as possible. So they come up with a design that no "serious" cyclist would want to use. Additionally, most of the people I see riding lower end bikes ride on the hoods anyway (even if they have the fully integrated levers). So I'd say it's a combination of the two.

So they come up with a design that no "serious" cyclist would want to use. Additionally, most of the people I see riding lower end bikes ride on the hoods anyway (even if they have the fully integrated levers).

I hope you're not refering to the thumb levers. Up until Lance Armstrong won his seven tours, Shimano didin't have many, if any, showings in the winners circle. It was all Campy. I'd say that some serious cyclists who use brifters with thumb levers. Try again

Tim

Up until Lance Armstrong won his seven tours, Shimano didin't have many, if any, showings in the winners circle. It was all Campy. I'd say that some serious cyclists who use brifters with thumb levers. Try again

Tim

That's not really correct. Shimano equipped bike won plenty of classic and other stage races well before Armstrong's Tour de France run. They just never won the Tour before then.

Ah, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Sora brifters are the only Shimano ones with the thumb lever. And I'm also pretty sure that USPS/Discovery didn't use Sora.
Top

I hope you're not refering to the thumb levers. Up until Lance Armstrong won his seven tours, Shimano didin't have many, if any, showings in the winners circle. It was all Campy. I'd say that some serious cyclists who use brifters with thumb levers. Try again

Tim

OK, I'll try again (I always love it when people end posts with that one, as if they've just prpven something fundamental).

I've never used Campy, but my understanding is the placement is different for the buttons. I never said buttons were inherently evil, but if they're placed in the wrong area they can't be used well for speed. With Sora, it seems uncomfortable to shift from the drops. If you're suggesting that serious cyclists get up on the hoods to upshift, I'd be surprised. Certainly would detrimentally affect "teh aero".

Ah, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Sora brifters are the only Shimano ones with the thumb lever.
You're right, they are.


And I'm also pretty sure that USPS/Discovery didn't use Sora.
Top
No, of course they didn't. The original comment was that thumb lever brifters (i.e. Campy Ergos) had won many major bike races and, until Armstrong, Shimano equipped bikes hadn't. I replied that Shimano STI bikes (not Sora) had won a lot of races, just not the TdF.

One point that may not be apparent to those who haven't ridden both types is that the thumb levers (aka mouse ears) on Campy Ergos are positioned quite differently from those on Sora levers. The Ergo's can easily be shifted from any hand position where as Sora apparently can't.

Hmm.. all this hype.

I'm feeling ancient with my 7-speed RSX group. But then I converted my crankset from a triple to a single. Anyone else notice the 2-piece crankset with the Sora group? Does this mean it uses outboard bottom brackets? It says integrated..

Yup, I noticed. It looks like the new Tiagra one, that is to say awful. Pity, because the old one was lovely. I have one on my bike, and the finish is great.

I suspect that the Sora mechanism is much cheaper to make, hence it's use. The price differential between Sora and Tiagra sti's is best explained that way.

Yup, I noticed. It looks like the new Tiagra one, that is to say awful. Pity, because the old one was lovely. I have one on my bike, and the finish is great.


I personally like the new Tiagra, and the "capless" look they've trickled down there. Plus I thought the alloy/titanium color was also a nice touch. But that's just me.

One point that may not be apparent to those who haven't ridden both types is that the thumb levers (aka mouse ears) on Campy Ergos are positioned quite differently from those on Sora levers. The Ergo's can easily be shifted from any hand position where as Sora apparently can't.
The Sora thumb-levers are much further ahead on the lever body than the Campy thumb levers. Which makes them more comfortable to shift from the hoods, but it's very difficult to reach them from the drops. This isn't too much of a problem for riders who spend majority of their time on the hoods, as has been pointed out, which is Sora's main market.

The Sora thumb-levers are much further ahead on the lever body than the Campy thumb levers. Which makes them more comfortable to shift from the hoods, but it's very difficult to reach them from the drops. This isn't too much of a problem for riders who spend majority of their time on the hoods, as has been pointed out, which is Sora's main market.

People talk about riding the hoods as if it is more common with novices than experienced roadies. Is this really true? I've been riding for 40 years and do the huge majority of my riding on the hoods, I'm thinking 80-90 percent. I've always been this way, even in the 70s.

Look at a random sampling of photos of pro riders - what percentage show them riding the hoods? A very large percentage.

I'm only saying, that riding the hoods, imo, is the most common position for all road bike riders, not just beginners.

That said, I have Shimano ultegra STI levers and do indeed shift from the drops, and not having that ability would be a detriment for me, but a relatively minor one.

On the other hand, my hands are kind of small, and sometimes I struggle to shift from the drops; one of my next improvements might be shorter reach bars or repositioning the levers to rectify that.

Can campy ergos be shifted from the drops? If not, isn't this a problem for racers?

Can campy ergos be shifted from the drops?

Yes they can be. It's actually quite easy to downshift from the drops i.e. using the "mouse ears". I have Ultegra and Sora STI and Campy Record shifters and don't really like one over the other. They all get the job done. Racer may feel differently.

That does look nice! Sora has been my favorite STI setup, aside from the fact that it had not been available in 9-speed.

I greatly prefer the Sora/Campagnolo style shift interface to the other Shimano models, because it is a different motion for upshifting than for downshifting. I find this reduces confusion.

The Sora brifters also have a unique advantage: they're the only drop-bar brake levers with a reach adjustment, making them THE best choice for riders with short fingers.

The biggest problem with Sora is dealing with snobbery and the stigma of low price.

Sheldon "Soraphile" Brown


A small addennum to that, New Tiagra comes with Reach adjusting shims, I don't know if any OEM bike manufacturers bother including the shims in the box tho'. :(

Sora shifters are the ONLY STI shifters that are as fast and precise as old-time downtube shifters. I hope Sora shifters NEVER change, and I hope Dura-Ace and Ultegra shifters get "upgraded" with the Sora thumbshifter.

Sora is as close to "Campy" quality as Shimano has ever gotten.

People talk about riding the hoods as if it is more common with novices than experienced roadies. Is this really true? I've been riding for 40 years and do the huge majority of my riding on the hoods, I'm thinking 80-90 percent. I've always been this way, even in the 70s.

Look at a random sampling of photos of pro riders - what percentage show them riding the hoods? A very large percentage.

I'm only saying, that riding the hoods, imo, is the most common position for all road bike riders, not just beginners.
That's very true. Partly this is 'cause so many newer bikes with threadless headsets wind up with the bars too low for comfort. Far too many bikes are sold with the steerers cut too short.

I believe that the low-handlebar trend has a couple of causes:

It _looks_ racier and faster.

Modern "aero" brake levers permit powerful braking from the hoods. This was not so of the old-style drop bar levers where the cable came out the top. Back when those were the norm, people needed to keep the bars high enough to use the drops, because from the drops was the only place the brakes were truly effective.

Sheldon "http://sheldonbrown.com/handsup" Brown

+---------------------------------------------+
| If your bike has drop handlebars, but you |
| rarely or never ride on the drops, it's a |
| sure sign that your bike is not properly |
| fitted or is not properly adjusted! |
| See: http://sheldonbrown.com/handsup |
+---------------------------------------------+

I like my Sora! After a good 10000k my brifters still work very well and sit perfectly at home on my touring/commuter bike. IMHO they shift slightly better than my 105 9sp brifters but don't seem to apply as much power to the brakes. 105's are slightly better for shifting from the drops though my medium sized hands don't struggle too much with the Sora mouse ears from that position. The mouse ears are very convenient for shifting in the aero postion (clip ons). For racing I prefer having an extra cog with 9sp but for touring/commuting 8sp Sora brifters with a triple crank rules. I can go into any hardware store to get an 8sp chain (9sp chain works too) and I enjoy super fast up-shifts...down-shifts have a better feel IMHO as well. I sincerely hope Shimano continues to develop the Sora-Ace line...:0).
N.B. Sora derail's are garbage and should be avoided...hubs work OK.
TM

9-speed, huh?

Does this mean that Shimano has officially rendered 8-speed basically extinct? Some of you may think it's silly, but that really upsets me. I am personally a fan of 8-speed. The durability, longevity...yet adequate versatility of an 8 speed drivetrain are great for my commuter. I LIKE the fact that the chain is a bit beefier. Are we soon to have everything in 10 speed? It may seem bizarre to some here, but I ride 8 speed by choice.

Hmmmph. I'm a bit upset now.
Everytime a new product is introduced, there is a wave of panic "I won't be able to keep my old setup!". There isn't a 7-sp police going around picking up 7-sp (or 8-sp, or 6-sp, or whatever) bikes... No, you are not "soon to have everything in 10 speed", you are "soon to be able to get 8-sp stuff for even cheaper". You can still buy cassettes + chains + brifters for all that stuff.

Yep....might be time for you to start buyin' yer 8-speed stuff up now....get some bargains!

Yes they can be. It's actually quite easy to downshift from the drops i.e. using the "mouse ears". I have Ultegra and Sora STI and Campy Record shifters and don't really like one over the other. They all get the job done. Racer may feel differently.
(Pro) Racers race what sponsors give them to race. Notice how all members from pro teams have the same preferences in equipment? And how their preferences all change at the same time when a new sponsor signs up? And how this year's setup is always the best they ever had?

Everytime a new product is introduced, there is a wave of panic "I won't be able to keep my old setup!". There isn't a 7-sp police going around picking up 7-sp (or 8-sp, or 6-sp, or whatever) bikes... No, you are not "soon to have everything in 10 speed", you are "soon to be able to get 8-sp stuff for even cheaper". You can still buy cassettes + chains + brifters for all that stuff.
Yep. See: http://sheldonbrown.com/carapace.html#thin

Sheldon "Carapace" Brown

That new Sora looks really nice. Makes me wonder how polished and/or carbon fiber widgety the high-end is going to have to get to justify all the guys who scoff at Sora. I ran Sora when I started road cycling and it all worked fine, and this is when I didn't know how to work on my own bike very well. Didn't look near as nice as this stuff, though.

That looks very nice, and 9 speed will offer a much better upgrade path. The blurb also says that the RD has a 31 tooth capacity. That is 4 higher than the standard 27t claim, if I remember correctly. That seems very sensible to me.

Yep. See: http://sheldonbrown.com/carapace.html#thin

Sheldon "Carapace" Brown

Okay, okay...you win. Perhaps I'm making mountains of mole-hills.

However, my concern is not simply that I will be completely unable to acquire 8 speed parts. My concern was mainly with the quality of those parts if certain manufacturers cease making them. I will be relegated, perhaps, to a second rate replacement part, or a more expensive conversion.

However...all the new Sora stuff looks really nice. And perhaps by the time my tank-like durable 8 speed stuff wears down, I'll be ready for an expensive re-build/conversion anyway.

Okay, okay...you win. Perhaps I'm making mountains of mole-hills.

However, my concern is not simply that I will be completely unable to acquire 8 speed parts. My concern was mainly with the quality of those parts if certain manufacturers cease making them. I will be relegated, perhaps, to a second rate replacement part, or a more expensive conversion.

However...all the new Sora stuff looks really nice. And perhaps by the time my tank-like durable 8 speed stuff wears down, I'll be ready for an expensive re-build/conversion anyway.
FWIW, I'm still riding a 7-sp config, with Shimano cassettes still available, any Shimano FD or RD being ok for replacement, and a whole choice of chains to pick from. And any Shimano chainrings can be used, since chains have gone narrower, not wider. Or you can use FSA, or TA, or Sugino, or... Only tight spot is brifters, where Soras are the only game in town. The day I get real paranoid, I'll buy a set in advance in case they get cleaned up the surface of the planet.

I like my Sora! After a good 10000k my brifters still work very well and sit perfectly at home on my touring/commuter bike. IMHO they shift slightly better than my 105 9sp brifters TM
They shift better because they are better adjusted.

Sora-level compact crankset? Wonder what that'll run price-wise.

Query-

RE: 7 speed Sora, are shimano 7 speed cassettes spaced the same as standard (ie. you can buy new) 7 speed freewheels? I saw on Harris Cyclery the Sora 7 speed shifter and said compatible with both, but sheldon's cribsheet on spacing seems to suggest otherwise.

I'm curious because I've got a NOS bike I want to use for cyclocross that has a 6 speed freewheel drivetrain. I switch back and forth between the original wheels with the knobbies and modern cassette wheels with slicks and just use the bar-ends in friction for the modern wheels. It'd be cool if I could put a 7 speed freewheel on the original wheels and a 7 speed cassette on the new and have indexing for both. Plus I'm feeling I might want brifters if I race it.

Shimano 7-speed freewheels (yep, there are still a couple of them in production) are spaced the same as their 7-speed cassettes. Nashbar sells a house brand 7-speed freewheel (Made by Sun Race, I believe) that should also be compatible with Shimano 7-speed shifters.

I thought all modern 7 speed freewheel, SRAM, Sunrace, IRD, were spaced the same as shimano freewheels (in other words, I thought freewheel spacing on new freewheels had become standardized). Is that not correct?

That's very true. Partly this is 'cause so many newer bikes with threadless headsets wind up with the bars too low for comfort. Far too many bikes are sold with the steerers cut too short.

I believe that the low-handlebar trend has a couple of causes:

It _looks_ racier and faster.

Modern "aero" brake levers permit powerful braking from the hoods. This was not so of the old-style drop bar levers where the cable came out the top. Back when those were the norm, people needed to keep the bars high enough to use the drops, because from the drops was the only place the brakes were truly effective.



Worse yet, it seems to me that the manufacturers put the bars low (for the sexy effect), but then put the brifters high on the bars (to make them usable as the dominant hand position). The end result seems to be that the brake levers are almost unusable from the ergo position on the drops.

I've seen some setups where one simply could not possibly use the drops without 10 inch fingers. Seems like the usual factory setup results in a lot of bad hand positions and no particularly usable ones.

Really, I don't understand why people get a bike with drop bars if they don't want to ride in the drops.

wait in a year or 2 when everything switches to 11 speed and they eventually have to give MTB spacing in the back to fit it. That will throw everyone for a loop.