Advocacy & Safety - Music while you ride?

Hi guys,

I have always held the view that audio systems with ear plugs where a no no while riding. But a friend of mine says no problem...

Any views out there?

Louis T

No problem.

No problem, if you don't mind being ran over by a Mack truck.

But if you do decide to ride with headphones, let me say this, you had better have a really nice helmet and very good insurance.

I believe that it is illegal to drive with these things in at least some provinces (I know that in BC it's illegal). Because cycling on highways brings you under the motor vehicle act in your province, you are by default, subject to the laws and regulations therein.

Legal issues aside, I agree that if you don't care about getting run over cuz you didn't hear the vehicle approaching behind you, go for it!

Just my opinion of course... :)

This is one thing I've never been able to understand. Personally, I like to go mountain biking for the exercise of course but mainly to get away from the city and the noise. I see a walkman as a way of taking the noise with you. No thanks. I'd rather listen to the wind or birds or the sounds my tires/bike makes while I ride.

I think you're not fully "in the moment", you're not really taking it all in with some unrelated noise blaring in your ears. Plus other hikers/cyclists/cars/trucks/Tractors/747's find it extremely hard to get your attention! ;)

I think earplugs or anything else that hinders a biker from getting input about his surroundings (read possibly dangerous surroundings) is a very bad idea. Cycling in any form can be dangerous without making it worse by removing one of your major warning devices. Stay safe for yourself and others.

I can listen to music when I get home. I think they would just hinder the cycling experience anyway.

Chris

From what I've seen on the roads and trails, I've come to the conclusion that people who listen to music while cycling or running:

1. hate that activity,

2. do the activity only because someone has directed them to do it,

3. are looking for anything and everything to blot out the pain and boredom of performing this distasteful activity.

Originally posted by jaques
3. are looking for anything and everything to blot out the pain and boredom of performing this distasteful activity.

Chris L does not understand. Pain and cycling are two of Chris L's favourite things.

Chris

I sing while I ride. Do a real loud version of "Back in the Saddle Again" by Aerosmith. My current favorite singalong is the new Cake song: Girl in a Short Dress and a Loooonnnnggg Jacket!

ChrisL loves adversity. Take away hills, headwinds, aggressive motorists, vicious dogs, and flats, he'd stop cycling altogether.

Really can't see myself cycling in cycling paradise either - a million cyclists peacefully trundling down wide bike paths, no cars anywhere, all the dogs chained up, run-flat tires . . . b o r i n g

Chris L is pleased that Jacques understands him. Chris L finds that this is not a very common occurrence.

Some people turn the headphones volume down low enough so that they *think* that they can hear most of what's going on around them. But when you're cycling, it's sometimes the very soft very subtle noises that can provide important warning information. For example, you might be able to hear a car coming loud and clear, but will you hear the idiot cyclist who doesn't yet know how to use their brakes properly and who is approaching from a direction that you are not expecting?

I do know of one person who when he goes cycling with a group, he sometimes has a boom box strapped to his back rack and plays it softly. I'm not advocating this, but I'm just saying that it's what some people have done instead of wearing headphones.

I have quoted from several posters to address the various concerns raised.


No problem, if you don't mind being ran over by a Mack truck.

My statement that it is no problem is based on extensive experience of actually doing it. What's yours based on?

I have actually been hit from behind. Just recently in fact and I wasn't wearing headphones at the time. What makes you think that you will be able to tell the difference between a vehicle on a collision course and one that is passing normally by hearing alone? Going on a sample of one, you simply don't have time to respond, unless you SEE them coming.


I like to go mountain biking for the exercise of course but mainly to get away from the city and the noise

I only wear headphones for commuting. It's a much more preferable sound than the noise of traffic. For mountain biking, I agree entirely.


[i]I think you're not fully "in the moment", you're not really taking it all in with some unrelated noise blaring in your ears.

This is true, however I have found that it is no more a distraction than the circling thoughts that drag me out of the moment even when I'm not wearing headphones. Also, consider this: sound is just sound. With practice it is just as possible to be in the moment with headphones on as without. If I were that practiced, I would most likely leave the headphones off, but for entirely different reasons than have been brought up so far.


Plus other hikers/cyclists/cars/trucks/Tractors/747's find it extremely hard to get your attention!

I do miss out on the gems of wisdom offered by passing motorists and their passengers. I don't consider this to be a great loss :)


Some people turn the headphones volume down low enough so that they *think* that they can hear most of what's going on around them. But when you're cycling, it's sometimes the very soft very subtle noises that can provide important warning information.

Some people think they can ascertain the safety of otherwise of wearing headphones whilst riding even though they have never actually done it. One wonders what basis they have for this judgement.


For example, you might be able to hear a car coming loud and clear, but will you hear the idiot cyclist who doesn't yet know how to use their brakes properly and who is approaching from a direction that you are not expecting?

That's why you have eyes, and why you should never be lulled into a state where you expect ANYTHING. That, my friends, is the real danger.


I do know of one person who when he goes cycling with a group, he sometimes has a boom box strapped to his back rack and plays it softly. I'm not advocating this, but I'm just saying that it's what some people have done instead of wearing headphones.

I prefer not to inflict my musical taste on the general public ;) and those things weigh a ****load.

-----------------------

Perhaps I come across as overly defensive in the above comments, and I really don't intend any offence to anyone. I didn't even really want to make a debate out of this, hence my initial two word response, but the other responses have shown clear signs of prejudice which I would like to address.

My only real concern with all the responses is that people are judging an activity without necessarily having any experience of it - this is the prejudice I referred to. Well, I ride with headphones a lot and, my motives for doing so aside, in my experience the above posts overstate the risks in doing so by a significant amount.

I draw a parallel with those people that have never taken their bikes off the footpath claiming that riding on the road with traffic is dangerous. Those of us that have actual expereince of it know this to be largely untrue. Yes, there are some concerns, but nothing that is insurmountable once you know the proper way.

If you have actually done it and still consider it to be dangerous, then I can respect that, and I hope you can respect the fact that I have come to a different conclusion, but I have seen little evidence of this in the posts. I hope you can tell me otherwise.

If you're really concerned about what's happening behind you, a mirror, or even systematic shoulder-checking is infinitely more useful than your hearing.

I used to think I was the only one to come to these conclusions until I read http://www.bikexprt.com/bicycle/hearing.htm I recommend it to you.

On a final note, for those of you that hold any truck with statistics, I have had far more crashes riding without headphones than with them. Conclude from that what you will - personally I don't see a causal relationship.

Allister

Originally posted by Chris L
I can listen to music when I get home. I think they would just hinder the cycling experience anyway.

This is a case where Chris L has slipped into the first-person. Does Chris L find that things which hinder the cycling experience cause Chris L to slip into first-person?;)

The above was Chris L's 998th post (or something). Chris L has only been in the third person since post no. 1,000.

Chris L forgives this misunderstanding. ;)

(Sorry Chris L, I was distracted. It must have been the music that made me lose track of the fact that this was a post before post 1000. Yeah, that's it.)

I don't do any formal meditation at all - no zen, no yoga, etc. Biking through the streets of Chicago is probably the closest I come to meditation, as I have to keep my awareness open constantly. In Zen meditation, if the pupil gets distracted, the master might hit the pupil with a stick. When I'm cycling, if I get distracted, I might get doored. Or fail to notice a sudden swerve that a taxi is making to pick up a fair. Etc.

There's a zen koan where three pupils complain to their master that they haven't yet found enlightenment. The master said to meditate one day more and that if they hadn't found enlightenment, they should kill themselves. The next day, they all found enlightenment. In a similar vein, I know that if I don't maintain my awareness, I know that I could kill myself (in a stupid accident.)

Guilty. I ride listening to the radio or tapes all the time on my commutes. But I also wear a mirror that attaches to my glasses. And I spend as much time looking in it as I do forward.
I rarely use headphones on fun or training rides, where I'm more focused on the ride/effort, and liable to miss rear-approaching traffic. Either way, I always ride with a mirror.

FWIW, it is illegal to ride with headphones in NY, MA, PA, and the provinces of Ontario and Quebec. Wait until you get home to listen to tunes.

I love cycling !

I love music !
They are both my favorite recreations , but I do not want the two to mix.

There is nothing more pleasurable for me than to go for my regular cycle run , come home . have a bath or shower then crash out in my favorite armchair .after putting on a Mozart Opera or perhaps a Mahler symphony
AHHHHH PURE BLISS!

God bless you all
willic

What about the poor souls who pick up radio waves on their fillings or braces?

I use my rides to contemplate. Sometimes, to contemplate nothing. For hours.

Music is on when I return home.

When I was 19 or so back in the early 1980s, I had a college friend who rode everywhere on his newfangled moped thing and he always wore headphones wherever he went. He was a big music
fan. Then one fall semester he did not come back,
because he had been hit and killed by a truck.
I can't say that the headphones caused it, but
I can say this: It's 20 years later. I'm married, with a kid, years of fun behind me. I kept going. He stopped. Sometimes I used to think, wow, luck, fate, there but for the grace of something etc, enjoy my time because I could lose it all in an instant. Then again, I never rode around on a moped with headphones. I am still pissed off at him. But do whatever you want. Your life.

Wearing headphones while riding in traffic is a good way to qualify you for a Darwin Award. This is a yearly occasion, in which people are honoured for actions which resulted in their removal from the gene pool. Previous winners include a guy who welded a JATO to the trunk of a 66 chevy, as well as an honourable mention to that nut who got airbourne with 6 dozen baloons and a lawnchair a few years ago (he was not qualified to win, because he actually survived that stunt). If you are trying to make a social statement rather than musical one, may I suggest doing something quicker and more drastic? The result will be the same, but people will worry about you for a shorter time, that way.:eek:

We in U.K are considered to be crazy people (at least thats what severel postings on forums tell me) but i must admit i dont recall or certainely never noticed any other cyclist i have come across with any musical transmission implement plugged in.
That must be beyond even crazy peoples contemplation!
willic.

Originally posted by Pat O'Malley
I sing while I ride. Do a real loud version of "Back in the Saddle Again" by Aerosmith. My current favorite singalong is the new Cake song: Girl in a Short Dress and a Loooonnnnggg Jacket!

I sing too, but currently favour Bacharach and David selections and Elvis' "The girl of my best friend"

I wear earplugs under my crash helmet when motorcycling, but would never think of listening to music as I cycle. Blots out the hiss of the tyres on the road and my creaky left pedal :)

I must confess, that I too, have been known to sing Bacharach songs while cycling.

Just curious: there have been a lot of claims on this thread about how dangerous it is to ride with headphones.

My question is simple: How do you know?

Consider the question carefully before answering. I'm not asking why you think it's dangerous, or why you think hearing is so important, but how you know that simply by listening to headphones a crash is therefore inevitable.

Like I said: just curious.

Oh, and you guys who sing Bacharach songs - sick, sick b*stards ;)

Variety being the spice~~ I always, ALWAYS, use helment, eyes and ears when in traffic~~ On trails, I enjoy the sounds encountered that nature provides~~ However~~ in support of the fellow music lovers~~ I do use headphones/music for training rides which consist of repetitive circles on paved track, or helment/earphones on trails that are tainted with unpleasant noises~~ For grins, (and when in safe area) do try a ride to music~~ Yanni~~Enya~~ Experience the high of both soul moving music and biking at the same time~~ awesome~~

So ChrisL, do have a secret for coming to love pain? A little tipity do dah that we could all try and see if we come to love pain in the same manner you do?

Originally posted by fubar5
So ChrisL, do have a secret for coming to love pain? A little tipity do dah that we could all try and see if we come to love pain in the same manner you do?

I think I was just born that way. The thing is, the pain of hills or rain really isn't that bad once you actually do it. I think most people are just afraid of some imaginary thing that might hurt them or something.

As far as singing goes, this is something I do very badly, and it depends what sort of a mood I'm in at the time. My range of musical tastes extends from Elton John to Bodycount. There's plenty of choice there.

Chris

Allister: It's simply common sense that masking one of your senses while engaged in a risky activity adds to the risk. Will you inevitably crash? No. But I don't ride with a blindfold on, either, even if I can peek around the edges a little. Sure, I can hear the cars coming, but I'd rather see them, too.

Originally posted by Palafo
Allister: It's simply common sense that masking one of your senses while engaged in a risky activity adds to the risk. Will you inevitably crash? No. But I don't ride with a blindfold on, either, even if I can peek around the edges a little. Sure, I can hear the cars coming, but I'd rather see them, too.

Well, firstly, I don't consider cycling to be a risky activity.

Second, common sense is not the same thing as knowledge, even if I thought the principle you referred to was in fact common sense. In support of an absolute statement such as 'it's dangerous to ride with headphones on' it's as persuasive an argument as 'it's company policy'.

Thirdly, does blocking my nose, thus masking one of my senses add to the risk?

I ask again. How do you KNOW?

If you're not quite sure why I'm asking this question, or what I mean by 'know' read Green Eggs and Ham by Dr. Seuss. If it's still not clear think on this: How do you know how to ride a bike?

Regards,
Sam, I am.

ps. It's interesting to me that I asked this exact same question regarding a totally different subject on rec.bicycles.misc recently and received exactly the same 'it's common sense' answer in response. So, here's the same question I asked back (and have yet to receive an answer for): What is common sense? Is it the same as truth?

Testing is complete~~ I just returned from a training ride~~Used studio quality headphones, completely covered my ears~~ I heard the following sounds in addition to the CD playing~~ crickets chirping, dogs barking, lawn mowers running, doors slam, kids playing, cars crank, and the foot noise of one runner.
(no partridge in the pear tree, but several pecans fell undetected)
b

I don't like wearing headphones while I ride... the wires get tangled in my antlers.

I with those who prefer not to be distracted with music or radio when I ride. I know I am more aware of whats around me without the extra noise and gadget to play with.

Moose

I'm with Moose on this one. Dangerous or not, it's just not something I feel comfortable with.

Why is it no one addresses the extensive research and scientific facts referenced by Allister in his earlier post? It's wrong to criticise someone because they disagree with your personal opinion, especially when that opinion has no basis in fact. I, for one, never ride without headphones, to the tune of 6000+mi/yr., and have never had a problem.

Yanni??
I do believe that I'm going to hurl!

Originally posted by Allister
Oh, and you guys who sing Bacharach songs - sick, sick b*stards ;)

Come on Allister, "Wives and Lovers" is a great non pc song, and anybody who can listen to "A house is not a home" without feeling emotional isn't human.

We can't all listen to the Minogue sisters and Men at Work :D

I don't need to jump off a bridge to know it's not a good idea.:)

Originally posted by chewa
We can't all listen to the Minogue sisters

Now I'm going to puke!

Allister:

The sense of smell is not nearly as critical to riding as hearing, which is not as critical as sight. And it's not cycling that is dangerous,
but cars, and I would strongly suggest not using headphones in traffic; as noted in an earlier post, a friend of mine was killed in similar circumstances.

I have less of a problem with people wearing headphones on trails or paths, but I have had to yell at enough bikers, runners and bladers wearing headphones to know that they were not aware that I was approaching them while they bobbed and weaved erratically to the beat.

Originally posted by Palafo
Allister:
The sense of smell is not nearly as critical to riding as hearing, which is not as critical as sight..
I was merely responding to your statement that 'masking one of the senses adds to the risk'. Clearly not all senses are equally important for cycling. Hearing takes a long, long second place to sight, so comparing headphones with a blindfold is a non-argument, just as weraing a peg on your nose is.



And it's not cycling that is dangerous,
but cars,
Ok, let's take this assertion and run with it. Let's say cars are in fact dangerous. What are the potential situations where hearing alone could be of assistance in avoiding a collision with one? These would be situations where you couldn't see them. The only one I can think of are cars approaching from behind.

Now, any advocate of vehicluar cycling, and anyone expereinced in the art knows that a rear end collision is an exceedingly rare occurence. This is the primary argument in persuading people that are frightened to ride on the road that it's not as dangerous as they think. It is an irrational fear that can readily be expelled by experience.

But now I hear the same fear being voiced by apparently experienced vehicluar cyclists regarding wearing headphones. This is even more irrational because I would expect these cyclists to at least some incling of how unlikely a rear ending is.

Even if it were a frequent occurence your hearing simply isn't accurate enough to determine whether a car coming from behind is going to hit you or not. Believe me I found this out the hard way. Wearing headphones or not makes no difference. If you really want to alleviate your fear of a rear-ending, get a mirror; it's infinitely more usefull than trusting your ears.

Apart from all that, it seems most nay-sayers underestimate how much noise cars actually make, and overestimate how much of it is blocked out by headphones playing at a reasonable volume. It's revealing that those on this thread that have actually worn headphones know that it's not dangerous, and those that haven't think that it is.

If you don't want to wear headphones that's fine. I'm in no way saying that you should. But DON'T try and tell people it's dangerous when you have no way of knowing whether it is or it isn't.


and I would strongly suggest not using headphones in traffic; as noted in an earlier post, a friend of mine was killed in similar circumstances.
It wasn't at all clear from your description that wearing headphones was a contributing factor.


I have less of a problem with people wearing headphones on trails or paths, but I have had to yell at enough bikers, runners and bladers wearing headphones to know that they were not aware that I was approaching them while they bobbed and weaved erratically to the beat.
That's weird. I would never wear my headphones on the recreational path near my home. This is a social experience as much as anything and headphones only isolate you from that. The opportunity for social intercourse while commuting, on the other hand, is extremely limited. In that situation I like the company of a bit of music. It's certainly a more pleasant sound that the dull roar of traffic :)

What the h*ll? Who cares if you ride with or without headphones? I do both, sometimes I don't want to hear anything but the surrounding noises and sometimes I want to hear Limp Bizkit so I have a great beat to get me up that hill. I have asthma and sometimes to hear myself breathe is really annoying.

I figure that if God pulls my number, and I get hit by a Mack truck, so be it.

Just last week a guy I knew died in a car accident and left behind a wife (stay at home mom) and a 6 year old daughter. He was the kind of guy who could out-work anyone. He worked for the electric company (a dangerous job) and was just coming home from work when someone hit him head on. The man upstairs needed a hard working guy and pulled his number.

So I think that it is a personal preference. No, I do not have a death wish, but I have never had a crash or near miss with the headphones on. Besides, it drowns out the people that honk and hoot and holler out their car windows.

Just a side note:

I had a long disussion with a police officer this weekend concerning the numerous bike laws that basically benefit everyone but the bikers due to lack of enforcement (a theme for a future rant) and she informed me that in my town wearing headphones while riding a bike is illegal.

I'm not one to wear the plugs while riding but the fact that I can't by law p*sses me off!

If you don't want to wear headphones that's fine. I'm in no way saying that you should. But DON'T try and tell people it's dangerous when you have no way of knowing whether it is or it isn't.

If you want to wear headphones, that's fine. I'm not saying you shouldn't. But don't tell me what to say and when to say it. Wearing headphones on a recreational path and in traffic is hazardous, and I know it both from observation and experience.
I never said I hadn't tried it. It's a distraction, because I do rely considerably on hearing cars and, particularly, other bikes. And I do have a mirror, but I'm not checking it constantly unless I hear something close behind me that I wasn't expecting.

Most of the people I see wearing headphones are on rec paths, not streets. And I will grant the point that some of them do seem able to hear warnings and so forth, so they aren't listening too loud. But there are many that are oblivious to those around them.
After reflecting on your post, I would have to conclude that is a more dangerous situation than in street traffic, which tends to be more predictable, cars tend to be noisier, etc. But I live in a city of 8 million people where I share the street with: cars, trucks, vendors pushing lunch carts up the middle of the street, untold numbers of jaywalkers, wrong-way bicyclists delivering food, ambush bike-theft experts, etc. Wearing headphones in these conditions is hazardous. Perhaps not as risky as riding without a helmet or with a blindfold, but it is a risk. It is simply common sense. And your vociferous protests and extensive rationalizations to the contrary suggest you subconsciously understand this.

Who cares if you ride with or without headphones?

If your risky behavior creates a hazard for me, then it is my concern. If you are oblivious to your surroundings, and I am part of your surroundings, you are oblivious to me, and I must take protective measures. Now, on the scale of hazards, are you in your headphones a major one? No... you're not a wrong-way bicyclist or a drunken driver or a huge hidden pothole, but the occasional headphones-equipped bicyclist is indeed a minor hazard. Actually, it's the rollerbladers with headphones that are the worst in this small category.

Originally posted by Palafo

Wearing headphones on a recreational path and in traffic is hazardous, and I know it both from observation and experience.
I never said I hadn't tried it.

Now we're talking. I'm interested in the specifics of your expereince. What experiences led you to the conclusion that wearing headphones is dangerous? This is a genuine question. Did you notice an actual increase in hits or near misses that might have been less severe/scary had you been able to hear better?



It's a distraction, because I do rely considerably on hearing cars and, particularly, other bikes. And I do have a mirror, but I'm not checking it constantly unless I hear something close behind me that I wasn't expecting.

I've never denied that it is a distraction, but I also say that it is no more distracting, perhaps less so, than the thoughts I engage in with or without the headphones.



After reflecting on your post, I would have to conclude that is a more dangerous situation than in street traffic, which tends to be more predictable, cars tend to be noisier, etc.

I guess I can see that, although I was only saying that I prefer not to wear headphones in this environment for purely social reasons.



But I live in a city of 8 million people where I share the street with: cars, trucks, vendors pushing lunch carts up the middle of the street, untold numbers of jaywalkers, wrong-way bicyclists delivering food, ambush bike-theft experts, etc.

Yikes! Ever considered moving somewhere less, erm, exciting ;)



Wearing headphones in these conditions is hazardous. Perhaps not as risky as riding without a helmet or with a blindfold, but it is a risk. It is simply common sense. And your vociferous protests and extensive rationalizations to the contrary suggest you subconsciously understand this.

I never said is was completely devoid of risk, merely that the risk is all to often grossly overstated - this thread has provided some choice examples of this. It also seems to be often the case that the risks are being evaluated without the benefit of experience.

I'm not even particularly interested in the arguments for or against wearing headphones. What concerns me most is prejudice - that my fellow cyclists, who must stand up to prejudice every day on the road, are just as succepitble to it's siren call. Even on a subject of such minor consequence as this it saddens me that this can happen. I guess I've still got a ways to go.

All I'm saying is, if you like to listen to music while you ride, don't necessarily believe all the hype about how dangerous it is. Try it out and make your own decision. You've obviously done that, Palafo, and I respect your choice, but what right have we to try and discourage others from making that choice based on their own experiences that will most likely be very different from yours or mine?

Allister

Originally posted by Palafo

If you are oblivious to your surroundings, and I am part of your surroundings, you are oblivious to me, and I must take protective measures.

It takes more than headphones (or any external factor) to make one oblivious to the surroundings. It takes a completely introspective mental state. It takes being completely captured by anything other than what one is doing at the time. It takes a dreamlike state that is almost scarily common these days. True, wearing headphones can sometimes encourage this state, but only in those likely to enter that state in the first place, and this is especially true in activities such as walking which we unfortunately tend not to give much attention to anyway. However this state is just as attaintable to people in apparent full use of their faculties.

However it is not necessarily true that someone merely wearing headphones is 'oblivious to their surroundings', a fact which you yourself pointed out in your previous post.

Allister

Allister:

The specific experience of riding with headphones... they were a distraction, as was the fumbling with the device at crucial moments. I did feel I was taken by surprise by people overtaking me on a couple of occasions. This was in a park, which I have since concluded is in many ways a more dangerous situation than the street.



Yikes! Ever considered moving somewhere less, erm, exciting

I can't imagine living anywhere but in New York. But I hear what you are saying regarding "prejudice" -- though I wouldn't use that word, exactly. I have had many people, including two doctors, look stunned when I told them I ride a bike on the streets. I do not think the risks are that great, though. There are many hazards, including, in my opinion, people who are not so careful as you say you are with their music listening/riding habits.
I just try to avoid them. I can't convince people not to talk on cell phones when they ride (seen it many times), listen to music, ride the wrong way on the street, run red lights etc etc. I can only ride defensively.

But again, this thread and the one on helmet-not-wearing seem to be aimed at getting the rest of us to condone some risky behaviors. Do whatever you please, and we'll ride around it,
but don't expect us to condone it.