Rental car insurance

[gosmsgo]

Oh boy this has been a huge pain in my buttocks.

We are now car free and are going to rent a car a few times per year when we really need one.

We do not have car insurance because we do not have a car.

I have found out that most credit card companies insurance is "secondary" insurance. That means that you must have some other type of primary insurance before their coverage kicks in. Im afraid that most people out there renting cars do not know that. Since we do not have regular car insurance that does not do us any good.

Diners club has primary insurance but the annual fee would be about $130 for my wife and I....hardly a good deal.

The rental car comanies car insurance is about $16 a day. So that is $240 a day if we rented 15 times per year. That is for collision and we would also need liability which is even more.

I have done several internet searches and found out about something called "non owners" insurance. I called every company in town and noone sells it. Most car insurance companies told me they would look into it but they never called back. I think they guess I am poor because I do not have a car.:mad:

What do you guys do?

[cerewa]

http://www.iii.org/media/updates/press.740426/

According to this site it apparently costs about $16 to $33 per day to get collision insurance and additional liability insurance above the state-required minimum. The rental company makes sure you're always insured to the minimum required by law (in liability insurance) when you rent a car.

[makeinu]

I have found out that most credit card companies insurance is "secondary" insurance. That means that you must have some other type of primary insurance before their coverage kicks in. Im afraid that most people out there renting cars do not know that. Since we do not have regular car insurance that does not do us any good.
Is this true? My understanding is that the secondary insurance provided by credit card companies only kicks in if you don't have any other insurance to cover it. In other words, if you have car insurance and they accept the claim then you're credit card insurance doesn't help you, but if your car insurance denies the claim (or if you don't have any car insurance) then you're credit card insurance covers it. It is secondary (ie it comes after any other insurance you have is exhausted). At least that's the way it seemed last time I read the agreement.

I'll take another look at one of my actual agreements when I get home and post back, but I'm pretty sure that's the way it usually is. That's the way it is with "secondary" medical insurance. For example, if you are insured through your employer then your family usually gets secondary insurance. If you wife is also insured through her employer then your insurance only kicks in for her if her own insurance won't cover it. However, if your wife doesn't have any of her own insurance then she is still insured under you; There is nothing to be secondary to.

The rental car comanies car insurance is about $16 a day. So that is $240 a day if we rented 15 times per year. That is for collision and we would also need liability which is even more.
Have you considered car sharing services like zipcar or flexcar? I believe insurance is included with them. Zipcar seems to be a ripoff, but flexcar seems reasonably priced if you need a car. I keep going back and forth over whether I should sign up for Flexcar. It would be good to have in an emergency, but why pay the annual fee if I'm never going to use it (and I've never needed to rent a car near my home since I've been car free).

[gosmsgo]

That is true. Secondary insurance means that you MUST have some type of primary insurance. Good thing you found out before you were in a wreck.

I live in missouri and I dont think we have those car sharing services.

I need a car in las vegas next week and other then that I need one about 4-5 times per year when I visit family in another part of the state.

[Platy]

I get the deluxe extra insurance package with rental cars. It increases the cost a lot.

It would be nice if car insurance weren't tied so closely to vehicle ownership, but that's the system that's evolved in the U.S.

[gosmsgo]

I think I will just buy the collison, liability and leave the medical and property ones.

I have medical insurance and if my stuff gets stolen out of the car then whoop de doo.....my bike will not be in there.

[makeinu]

That is true. Secondary insurance means that you MUST have some type of primary insurance. Good thing you found out before you were in a wreck.

I don't believe you. This description of benefits for any visa signature card says:
Within your country of residence, Visa Signature Auto Rental CDW supplements, and applies excess of, any valid and collectible insurance or reimbursement from any source. It does not duplicate insurance provided by or purchased through the auto rental company; it will not pay for losses reimbursed by your own insurer, employer, employer’s insurance, or any other valid and collectible insurance; however, it will pay for the outstanding deductible portion or other charges, including valid administration and loss-of-use charges not covered by your applicable automobile insurance policy. Outside your country of residence or if you do not have automobile insurance, this benefit is primary in those countries where it is available, and in that case, you do not have to claim payment from any other source of insurance before receiving the benefits.
http://usa.visa.com/personal/cards/credit/visa_signature_benefits_auto_rental.html

Of course, you have to refer to the actual agreement for your card to know for sure, but I believe that most credit card rental insurance applies to people without car insurance.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

I don't believe you. This description of benefits for any visa signature card says:

http://usa.visa.com/personal/cards/credit/visa_signature_benefits_auto_rental.html

Of course, you have to refer to the actual agreement for your card to know for sure, but I believe that most credit card rental insurance applies to people without car insurance.
Yes you do need to read the fine print. CDW only covers collision damage to the car; it does not provide coverage for injury of anyone or damage to anything inside or outside the rental vehicle.
. http://usa.visa.com/personal/cards/benefits/bft_dmg_waiver_personal.html

[makeinu]

Yes you do need to read the fine print. CDW only covers collision damage to the car; it does not provide coverage for injury of anyone or damage to anything inside or outside the rental vehicle.
. http://usa.visa.com/personal/cards/benefits/bft_dmg_waiver_personal.html
Yes, which is itself a complicated issue that I haven't sorted out for myself. Some states require that liability insurance be included in the price of every rental regardless of whether or not you have your own insurance (although if you ask, the rental company may still try to sell you additional liability coverage over the minimum mandated by law), some states pin the liability on the rental company (and so they always include liability insurance in the price of the rental), some states require the rental company to check that you have liability coverage before renting you the car (but a customer without liability coverage might be such a rare occurance that they fail to do so); You may be insured for liability by renter's insurance, homeowner's insurance, accident insurance (from your CC company), or uninsured/underinsured insurance held by the rental company. You may be insured for liability by one of these insurances, but it still may be illegal for you to drive, in which case your primary concern is not being insured in the case of an accident, but getting in trouble with the police. I'm not sure how police check for proper insurance on a rental, but it probably varies by state.

Has anyone figured this part out? Most credit card companies don't offer liability insurance for rental cars at all, not even secondary.

[Slow Train]

What do you guys do?

I have Flexcar which insures me when driving one of their cars. Other than that I never, never drive someone else's car as that would expose me to significant liability.

You are on the right track with the non-owner insurance policy. Try calling one the nation wide insurers. I suspect your first attempt reached lazy small town brokers who didn't what to deal with such an "exotic" request.

Also look into Umbrella insurance. It's designed to be secondary to auto insurance but might work for your situation.

[gosmsgo]

I don't believe you. This description of benefits for any visa signature card says:

http://usa.visa.com/personal/cards/credit/visa_signature_benefits_auto_rental.html

Of course, you have to refer to the actual agreement for your card to know for sure, but I believe that most credit card rental insurance applies to people without car insurance.


Im not trying to lie to anyone. That is the way I understand it from what I have read and what the person I talked to from Chase (our credit card company) told me.

I HOPE I am wrong because that would save me a couple hundred dollars.

[makeinu]

Im not trying to lie to anyone. That is the way I understand it from what I have read and what the person I talked to from Chase (our credit card company) told me.

I HOPE I am wrong because that would save me a couple hundred dollars.
Don't listen to anyone you talk to at the credit card company. 99% of them are massive idiots. Dig out your original credit card agreement (along with any amendments they may have sent you over the years) and read it. If you don't have it then call the credit card company, ask them to send you another copy of the agreement, and pray that they send you the right one.

If your particular credit card doesn't cover you (an otherwise uninsured driver) for collision then get another credit card. Most, if not all, credit cards offering rental coverage cover uninsured drivers for collision.

...Then there is the issue of liability insurance. What state do you live in? New York apparently requires the legal amount of liability insurance to always be included in the rental price of the car (regardless of whether or not you have your own coverage): http://www.oag.state.ny.us/consumer/tips/auto_rental.html. I'm not sure about my own state (Maryland) and I haven't been able to find a comprehensive source for this information on all states.

[gosmsgo]

I think I am going to purchase the $1,000,000 liability coverage from the rental car insurance.

You can never have enough liability when driving a 3000 pound cage at 70 mph.

[gosmsgo]

Don't listen to anyone you talk to at the credit card company. 99% of them are massive idiots. Dig out your original credit card agreement (along with any amendments they may have sent you over the years) and read it. If you don't have it then call the credit card company, ask them to send you another copy of the agreement, and pray that they send you the right one.

If your particular credit card doesn't cover you (an otherwise uninsured driver) for collision then get another credit card. Most, if not all, credit cards offering rental coverage cover uninsured drivers for collision.

...Then there is the issue of liability insurance. What state do you live in? New York apparently requires the legal amount of liability insurance to always be included in the rental price of the car (regardless of whether or not you have your own coverage): http://www.oag.state.ny.us/consumer/tips/auto_rental.html. I'm not sure about my own state (Maryland) and I haven't been able to find a comprehensive source for this information on all states.


Thats a problem. The chase card is the only one that is not in credit card hell. Cut up, burned, buried and forgotten.

I agree with you 100% that credit card company folks are idiots. The biggest problem with this is having to deal with companies that I feel are 100% evil.

[makeinu]

I think I am going to purchase the $1,000,000 liability coverage from the rental car insurance.

You can never have enough liability when driving a 3000 pound cage at 70 mph.

I personally wouldn't do that. Most people on the road have their own insurance (auto and medical). You probably have your own medical insurance. Unless you run over an uninsured bum I think you'll have a pretty hard time racking up $1M of liability (and even then it's possible you might get some coverage from your credit card company).

But that's just me personally. I'm not a lawyer, I'm not an actuary, I'm not an insurance professional. I'm just some guy on the bike forum.

[gosmsgo]

My wife was told in vet school that you should never, ever have under 1 million dollars worth of liability insurance on your car.

I agree. People sue etc.

Liblility insurance is cheap considering the hell your life would become without proper coverage.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

You may be insured for liability by one of these insurances, but it still may be illegal for you to drive, in which case your primary concern is not being insured in the case of an accident, but getting in trouble with the police.
IMO your primary concern should be that you may find yourself uninsured and liable for the costs of a catastrophic injury or damage incurred while operating the rental vehicle. Of course if you have nothing of value to lose, maybe that isn't such a problem.

[makeinu]

My wife was told in vet school that you should never, ever have under 1 million dollars worth of liability insurance on your car.

I agree. People sue etc.

Liblility insurance is cheap considering the hell your life would become without proper coverage.
Yeah, but that's assuming you drive every day like most people do. If you only drive 15 days out of the year then your chances of getting into an accident are lowered by a factor of 15/365=0.04. Whatever the price of auto liability is, if it is a reasonable price for an average individual then it's 25 times higher than reasonable for you.

I mean, would you buy the insurance if you were renting one day a year? One hour a year?

IMO your primary concern should be that you may find yourself uninsured and liable for the costs of a catastrophic injury or damage incurred while operating the rental vehicle.

If you are insured, but due to some legal loop hole not street legal then why would your primary concern be that you may find yourself uninsured?

Of course if you have nothing of value to lose, maybe that isn't such a problem.

Is this supposed to be yet another veiled insult about car free people being hippies? Back on ignore you go.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

I personally wouldn't do that. Most people on the road have their own insurance (auto and medical). You probably have your own medical insurance. Unless you run over an uninsured bum I think you'll have a pretty hard time racking up $1M of liability (and even then it's possible you might get some coverage from your credit card company).

But that's just me personally. I'm not a lawyer, I'm not an actuary, I'm not an insurance professional. I'm just some guy on the bike forum.
Just because the other guy has insurance doesn't get you off the hook for your own liability if the incident is considered your fault. And the other guy's insurance company will make it their business to get you found at fault. Who do think is going to pay for your legal representation?

[I-Like-To-Bike]

Is this supposed to be yet another veiled insult about car free people being hippies? Back on ignore you go.
You are right. You are not a lawyer, you are not an actuary, you are not an insurance professional. You are just some guy on the bike forum who can't stand to have his hot air rhetorical ballons punctured by barbs of reality.

Too bad for someone else if you cause an accident, eh? Is your trust fund protected from such possibilities?

[gosmsgo]

we were having a decent conversation.

:(

[I-Like-To-Bike]

we were having a decent conversation.

:(
A nice conversation about liability where at least one of the parties doesn't know diddley about the subject and is giving all sorts of advice that could prove to be financially ruinous for anyone dingy enough to follow it.

[gosmsgo]

I did not agree with his advice either but I listened and did not make fun of him. I said why I disagreed and went from there.

That is the difference between me and you.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

I did not agree with his advice either but I listened and did not make fun of him. I said why I disagreed and went from there.

That is the difference between me and you.
And I didn't make fun of him either. He made a fool of himself; and for toppers got all whiney and pizzy about facing up to the fact his dangerous (and ignorant) advice about auto liability may only be good for somebody with no concerns about losing anything of real monetary value. If he thinks that only applies to dippy hippies, that's his problem.

[Wogsterca]

Yeah, but that's assuming you drive every day like most people do. If you only drive 15 days out of the year then your chances of getting into an accident are lowered by a factor of 15/365=0.04. Whatever the price of auto liability is, if it is a reasonable price for an average individual then it's 25 times higher than reasonable for you.


Insurance of any type, is intended for that one-in-a-million chance, that you might be in a collision and sued. There are people who drive every day for decades, and pay that insurance every year, and never use it, there are people who get behind the wheel the first time, and are in a collision and sued. People who own cars, and drive every day, pay considerably more then $15 a year, in fact my last renewal for insurance has $1,000,000 liability and a premium of over $500 a year, just for liability.

Now insurance companies, might insure just about anything, you just need to word it right, at $15 per rental, if I were renting more then 34 times, I would consider going to an insurance company, and buying just the liability insurance, no collision, no comprehensive, just liability.

[Artkansas]

What do you guys do?

Well, my current solution is that I own an old car. It's parked. It's registered. Its insured. Costs me about $350 a year to maintain it in that condition. All the authorities are happy.

[Platy]

Maybe some junkyard should reduce junker cars to the legal minimum (serial number plate?), provide covered secure parking for them (in a safe deposit box or mini storage), and sell them to us carfree types so we can own fictional cars for insurance purposes.

[Slow Train]

Read this - I think it answers the subject quite well:
http://www.iii.org/individuals/auto/a/rentalcar/

[makeinu]

Insurance of any type, is intended for that one-in-a-million chance, that you might be in a collision and sued. There are people who drive every day for decades, and pay that insurance every year, and never use it, there are people who get behind the wheel the first time, and are in a collision and sued. People who own cars, and drive every day, pay considerably more then $15 a year, in fact my last renewal for insurance has $1,000,000 liability and a premium of over $500 a year, just for liability.

Now insurance companies, might insure just about anything, you just need to word it right, at $15 per rental, if I were renting more then 34 times, I would consider going to an insurance company, and buying just the liability insurance, no collision, no comprehensive, just liability.
Yeah, but even without getting the extra liability you'd still have the state mandated minimum. If you're going to get extra then why stop at one million? Why not 10 million, or 50 million? Considering how little driving we're talking about I'd be happy with the standard liability plus collision from my credit card company (and possibly "accident" insurance from my credit card company).

In the one in 25 million chance I get sued for a million dollars (or, for that matter, 10 million)....perhaps my wife would be disgusted by my recklessness and suddenly want a divorce. But there's always hope to get back together in the future....perhaps 7 years from now?
;) ;)

[Slow Train]

makeinu,

I can't disagree more with your viewpoint. You are arguing for no less than a complete abrogation
of any responsibility for one's actions. The fact is that existing state minimums on insurance are woefully
inadequate. The damage a car can do in an accident can easily exceed them. Which leaves you personally
responsible. And while no amount of money is compensation for grievous injury or death people who are injured by another's negligence deserve, at least, some compensation to be able to try to put their lives back together.

[wahoonc]

Some states (North Carolina is one) require you to have liability insurance to get and maintain a driver's license. IF you sign an affidavit stating you will not use it for driving personal vehicles they will issue you one without the insurance requirement, but it is stamped "commercial vehicle only" and there are penalties if you are caught driving anything other than a commercial vehicle. But given the fact that nearly 1/3 of the drivers in NC are either illegal, driving on suspended licenses/no licenses, improper/illegal tags, no insurance or...

Aaron:)

[makeinu]

makeinu,

I can't disagree more with your viewpoint. You are arguing for no less than a complete abrogation
of any responsibility for one's actions. The fact is that existing state minimums on insurance are woefully
inadequate. The damage a car can do in an accident can easily exceed them. Which leaves you personally
responsible. And while no amount of money is compensation for grievous injury or death people who are injured by another's negligence deserve, at least, some compensation to be able to try to put their lives back together.
For 15 days a year of driving I think that you're more likely to cause he same amount of damage by accidentally blinding another driver with the reflector on your bike. Why not get insurance against that instead? You could get sued.

If it weren't for the fact that car insurance is so widely available and commonly used I don't think that any of you would even entertain the thought of insuring yourself for this kind of blue moon activity. The thought would probably never enter your mind. For goodness sake, the OP is probably going to spend more time this year seeking and applying for insurance than he will performing the insured activity.

[crazybikerchick]

Its been a very long time since I've rented a car because now I just hate the stress of driving and prefer to figure out a way that someone else will do it :)

But for the "just in case" scenarios I have a VISA Gold card with no annual fee that offers the CDW insurance. I'm in Canada but I'm sure there must be no fee credit cards there that offer this feature. In Ontario the rental car cost includes liability insurance. I have rented cars in the US with my VISA card and yeah had to purchase the liability insurance for places where it was not included. (California I think?)

But just taking away the rental companies CDW fees is a big help.

[gosmsgo]

I read the info that came with our chase card and it says what was posted earlier.

Now how can I find out that the United States is one of the countries where it is allowed.

Remember it says something about becoming primary insurance if you do not have car insurance in countries where this is allowed.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

I read the info that came with our chase card and it says what was posted earlier.

Now how can I find out that the United States is one of the countries where it is allowed.

Remember it says something about becoming primary insurance if you do not have car insurance in countries where this is allowed.
Remember too that it was only addressing collision damage to the rental car, not personal liability.

As for advice maybe you can find one of the 1% of credit card personnel who is not an alleged total idiot; or you could ask a fellow car free/credit card averse expert for advice (and as a bonus an ideological rant) on car insurance and credit card coverage.

[gosmsgo]

I know.

I am going to purchase the $1,000,000 liability policy from the car rental agency.

Thank you for everyones help on this.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

I know.

I am going to purchase the $1,000,000 liability policy from the car rental agency.

Thank you for everyones help on this.
Have a pleasant accident free trip; and consider your foolish outlay on liability insurance not used as money well spent for piece of mind.

[makeinu]

I read the info that came with our chase card and it says what was posted earlier.

Now how can I find out that the United States is one of the countries where it is allowed.

Remember it says something about becoming primary insurance if you do not have car insurance in countries where this is allowed.
When and where am I covered?

This benefit is available on a 24-hour basis, in the United States and most foreign countries. No benefit is provided for motor vehicles rented in Israel, Jamaica, the Republic of Ireland, or Northern Ireland.

Additionally, this benefit is not available where precluded by law or in violation of the territory terms of the auto rental agreement or prohibited by individual merchants. Because regulations vary outside the United States, we recommend you check with your auto rental company and the Benefit Administrator before you travel to make sure Visa Signature Auto Rental CDW will apply.

This benefit is in effect while the rental vehicle remains in your control or in the control of a person permitted to operate the rental vehicle in accordance with the rental agreement between you and the auto rental company. This benefit terminates when the auto rental company re-assumes control of the rental vehicle.
Does your agreement say that?
http://usa.visa.com/personal/cards/credit/visa_signature_benefits_auto_rental.html

[gosmsgo]

yes.

and it also says this,

"Outside your country of residence or if you do not have automobile insurance, this benefit is primary in those countries where it is available, and in that case, you do not have to claim payment from any other source of insurance before receiving the benefits."

Does that mean that I can use it as primary insurance in the United States?