A good interview on local radio, recently, with the author of this book (Lisa Margonelli):
www.oilonthebrain.com
She gets the relationship of gasoline to modern American Culture exactly right, IMHO.
As a commodity, we are very aware of the pump price of gasoline ... since the amount is displayed in huge numbers all over the place. We know, to the penny, how much it costs.
Yet its cost is almost irrelevant to the majority who use it. The Price of Gasoline is the Price of Identity, and - although consumers will look around to save a few cents - the demand is not the same as the demand for something which might be considered to be optional.
A lot of commentators talk about Motor Vehicles as though they are simply means of transportation. Motor vehicles relate just as much to identity, power, and status. This is what often jars new bicycle commuters when they take to the street.
They assume that only their mode of transportation has changed. In fact, when they were surrounded by metal, they had a status based on make, model year, and optional equipment. On a bicycle, they are transformed from a Vehicle into a Road Hazard. No one pays much attention to bicycle riders until they get in the way.
Since the ratcheting of gas prices over the last 2 years, discussion has increased about exactly how much the Identity element of gasoline is worth.
My brother-in-law has consistenly argued that consumer behavior would not be visibly influenced until unleaded hit 10 USD/gallon. I personally thought that mothers would be marching - militias would be forming - and tent cities filled with protesters would be springing up around the Capitol at around 4.50 USD.
However, I paid a visit to Birmingham, England, last year when the gas price there was hovering around 7 USD/gallon. There were no bicyclists to speak of ... and public transit was heavily used. But an enduring memory of the place was of endless rows of little tiny cars slaloming through narrow streets. The cars didn't disappear ... they just got smaller.
In closing, I'll note that rising gas prices have been the subject of some debate in the last 2 issues of ADVENTURE CYCLING. Not everyone thinks that an American gas price in the British range would be a good thing for Bicycle Advocacy in the US.
The BikeForums Team
-adv-
This is an archived thread, you can find the full version of this thread, with images, links and more content here.
Seems to me the folks who talk about gas the most are cyclists - and the less they use it (directly) the more they talk about it.
Al
Severian
Seems to me the folks who talk about gas the most are cyclists - and the less they use it (directly) the more they talk about it.
Al
Honest query...
Do you think we're trying to justify our decision to "opt out" of the culture of direct gasoline consumption to ourselves?
I-Like-To-Bike
Honest query...
Do you think we're trying to justify our decision to "opt out" of the culture of direct gasoline consumption to ourselves?
Who is this "we" and "our" you are talking about, Kimosabe?:rolleyes:
Severian
Who is this "we" and "our" you are talking about, Kimosabe?:rolleyes:
I was speaking of the "We" who are "Cyclists who talk alot about gasoline, gasoline prices and gasoline culture". I certainly identify with that group.
It's fine with me if you don't.
CommuterRun
It's not just cyclists that talk about it. I hear motorists talking about it too, but most of that is whining while they continue to drive.
Cyclaholic
Who is this "we" and "our" you are talking about, Kimosabe?:rolleyes:
It's me, and YOU as well, or aren't you a utility cyclist?
ChipSeal
"As a commodity, we are very aware of the pump price of gasoline ... since the amount is displayed in huge numbers all over the place. We know, to the penny, how much it costs.
Yet its cost is almost irrelevant to the majority who use it. " -OP
At the junction of the I-5 and hwy 46 north west of Bakersfield in California is a cluster of businesses catering to travelers. There are three truck stops, two "car only" stations and some restaurants.
As a trucker over the past three years, I was always fascinated by the way the two "car only" gas stations priced their fuel: The Arco was always 10% to 15% less than the Chevron directly across the street from it. And there was always one or two cars at Chevron's pump! Why would someone pay a large premium for fuel rather than buying across the street? A more pointed question is, why should Chevron lower it's price when people are willing to buy it at a premium?:eek:
Arco will only accept cash as payment for fuel. If you are in the middle of nowhere (this place is) and have no fuel and no cash, you buy at Chevron. This station has a great business plan!:D
My point is, fuel prices are as high as they are, because consumers won't go across the street to pay a penny less per gallon, let alone the least expensive station in town. Consumers set the price, and they can influence the price much more than they do now.
Most of the costs that influence the price are out of our control: world oil demand and supply, limited refining capacity, government regulations and taxes, among others. The fact that price tracks supply and demand so closely proves that the market is working, and quite efficiently.
Brian Ratliff
Actually, I've heard that if you look at actual sales statistics for the types of cars that people are buying, even the move from $2 to $3 in gas price hit the sales of SUV's hard and spawned a demand for hybrids. I think it will take $10/gal to get people to en masse move to smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles; but it only takes a dollar or two to push the trends around.
I don't think that the demand for gasoline is nearly as inflexible as we assume. It just moves on a different time scale than we are used to because even the people who change cars a lot only buy or lease a new car once a year, at most. And most people keep their cars for 5-10 years. It takes a lot of increase of gas price to push the average person who owns a perfectly well working car to buy a completely new car as an economic replacement. But... if that person is facing an aging car and/or an expensive repair, and gas prices are high, gas prices will play a big role in what car they choose. So for a specific consumer, because a car is such a significant investment, demand for gasoline is inflexible. But as a population as a whole, demand for gasoline is much more flexible.
You want to see the population move en masse to more efficient cars? Figure out how to make an efficient, non-subcompact car cost $5,000 without resulting in a rattletrap/deathtrap. Funny thing is is that the car manufacturers are starting to figure this one out; not all the decent cars have to cost over $20,000.
Brian Ratliff
As a trucker over the past three years, I was always fascinated by the way the two "car only" gas stations priced their fuel: The Arco was always 10% to 15% less than the Chevron directly across the street from it. And there was always one or two cars at Chevron's pump! Why would someone pay a large premium for fuel rather than buying across the street? A more pointed question is, why should Chevron lower it's price when people are willing to buy it at a premium?:eek:
Arco will only accept cash as payment for fuel. If you are in the middle of nowhere (this place is) and have no fuel and no cash, you buy at Chevron. This station has a great business plan!:D
My point is, fuel prices are as high as they are, because consumers won't go across the street to pay a penny less per gallon, let alone the least expensive station in town. Consumers set the price, and they can influence the price much more than they do now.
Most of the costs that influence the price are out of our control: world oil demand and supply, limited refining capacity, government regulations and taxes, among others. The fact that price tracks supply and demand so closely proves that the market is working, and quite efficiently.
Anyone who has peered under the hood will tell you that you get less fuel economy with Arco gas than with Cheveron, and Arco gas doesn't burn cleanly; it leave soot to build up in your engine. So there is a quality difference with consumer gasoline; that's why people will buy Cheveron. Given the quality difference, is a difference in 15 cents worth it? Think about it. Most people buy 'round about 15 gallons of gas. At 15 cents difference, this is $2.25 difference for a tank full. And as the price of a gallon increases across the board, from $2 to $3, the 15 cent difference is even less consequential. $2.25 is only about 6% of the cost of a $40 fillup. Going from a $40 fill up to a $60 fillup makes the percentage difference between Arco and Cheveron only about 2%. That's a small price to pay for a bit more fuel economy and a cleaner engine (with less mantainance issues in the future).
And the gas stations are hardly the ones driving the price of gasoline. Especially when there are several on a corner participating in a price war, the gas stations have all cut their prices to the bone. No, it's the price that gas costs to the gas stations which is driving the prices at the pump up. And as the prices go higher, the little, privately owned gas stations get screwed. Down the street from my house, there is a tiny market that serves mostly migrant farm workers which sells gas. They have it bad because they don't sell much gas, so when gas prices rise, they get cleaned out (because they don't have to raise the price because they are still selling off their old tank). When they are now forced to buy a new tankful of gas at the, now peak, wholesale price, and the prices now start to fall, they can't sell a drop. The little corner store was, at first, selling gas at $3 when everyone else was at $3.40 or higher. Now it is selling at $3.60 when everyone else is at $3. Last time the prices spiked and they were stuck with a tank of gas they couldn't sell, their prices remained high for half a year. Last year they were over $3 when the rest of the gas stations in town were at $2.50 or lower. Now, their main business isn't gas, so they aren't necessarily troubled by this trend, but it illustrates how little freedom the individual gas stations have over how they set their price.
And as a last comment, the cheapest place to buy gas in the Portland Metro area (I think) is a station near my work, and it is a Cheveron.
Brian Ratliff
^^^
I've also seen Arcos which take CC's, but they have a sliding surcharge scale. Some 76's have two prices listed, the price for cash and the price for credit card.
I-Like-To-Bike
It's me, and YOU as well, or aren't you a utility cyclist?
Being a utility cyclist does not require opting out of any specific "culture" that displeases this or that cycling ideologue.
dynodonn
"As a commodity, we are very aware of the pump price of gasoline ... since the amount is displayed in huge numbers all over the place. We know, to the penny, how much it costs.
Yet its cost is almost irrelevant to the majority who use it. " -OP
At the junction of the I-5 and hwy 46 north west of Bakersfield in California is a cluster of businesses catering to travelers. There are three truck stops, two "car only" stations and some restaurants.
As a trucker over the past three years, I was always fascinated by the way the two "car only" gas stations priced their fuel: The Arco was always 10% to 15% less than the Chevron directly across the street from it. And there was always one or two cars at Chevron's pump! Why would someone pay a large premium for fuel rather than buying across the street? A more pointed question is, why should Chevron lower it's price when people are willing to buy it at a premium?:eek:
Arco will only accept cash as payment for fuel. If you are in the middle of nowhere (this place is) and have no fuel and no cash, you buy at Chevron. This station has a great business plan!:D
My point is, fuel prices are as high as they are, because consumers won't go across the street to pay a penny less per gallon, let alone the least expensive station in town. Consumers set the price, and they can influence the price much more than they do now.
Most of the costs that influence the price are out of our control: world oil demand and supply, limited refining capacity, government regulations and taxes, among others. The fact that price tracks supply and demand so closely proves that the market is working, and quite efficiently.
Whenever the wife and I leave our area by car, gas prices range between 20 to 30 cents a gallon lower wherever we go, so maybe the cars getting fuel were used to higher prices elswhere and didn't mind the higher cost as compared to the station across the street, they also could be brand loyal, or maybe they didn't wish to contend with a crowded gas station.
I have been at that gas oasis a few year back, I'm not sure how long that those truck stops and gas stations have been there, might have been the lone gas station my friends and I stopped at late one night over 30 years ago with fuel gauge leaning heavily on "E". That stretch of I 5 was dark and foreboding for miles on end when we traveled it at night, and I remember think how a set of neon lights could look so good.
bragi
Honest query...
Do you think we're trying to justify our decision to "opt out" of the culture of direct gasoline consumption to ourselves?
None of us can opt out of gasoline-consuming culture. Even if you don't a car, you depend on oil for virtually everything, including a whole lot of stuff on your bike. Don't be silly.
mustang1
It's not just cyclists that talk about it. I hear motorists talking about it too, but most of that is whining while they continue to drive.
From a British perspective. We pay just over £1 per litre. To fill up my car costs £70. I only drive about 3000 miles per year, the rest is public transport. The reason Brits (espeically) complain is because approximately 80% of that price is made up of tax. So if the oil price goes up or down, we don't see real price that we pay go up by much. The 80% figure is made of up different 'taxes' designed to stop us from using our cars too much; the theory is the more we use our cars, the more we pay for it. Ok, fine.
BUT, then we pay congestion charge. And by it's name, it's designed to reduce congestion. So why would a gas-guzzler need to pay more 'congestion' charge than a smaller car (eg, we're comparing, say, a 3.0 litre mid size car with a 1.8 litre mid-size car - no more space taken up. The congestion charge is £8 per day, and they're looking at rising it to £15. Then we pay annual road tax, £205. Many districts enforce parking laws where, suppose I wanted to visit my friend and park outside his house, my friend needs to pay for my parking permit. On top of that, soon, we will need a parking permit (chargeable of course, £50-200 per year, depending where you live (read: market segmentation, how much you can afford to pay) to park outside our own houses.
The government knows very well that only very small minority of drivers will get rid of their cars but the amount of money raised with all these existing and forthcoming charges will be huge. Oh, and the accident blackspot cameras (ie, speeding cameras, which are not really installed in places of accident blacksopts, but are installed where you can drive at a higher speed, safely) are used not to generate revenue and spend it on road improvements or public transport improvements, but it seems to get absorbed in other 'projects'.
The governemt does not want to get rid of the car, if they did, they'd put the price of driving a lot higher. In fact, what the govt really wants to do (and is doing) is to keep drivers on the road, and get them to pay. The govt makes one heck of a lot of money from British drivers, why would the govt want to deny themselves of that revenue?
Cyclaholic
Being a utility cyclist does not require opting out of any specific "culture" that displeases this or that cycling ideologue.
I beg to differ, my friend. Every time we ride for a purpose like doing the shopping or getting to/from work we are opting out of the gas-burning culture, at least for the duration of that journey.
maddyfish
Mustang1- you guys need to replace your government with one that steals less of your money. Eliminate some of those taxes.
JonathanGennick
I don't think that the demand for gasoline is nearly as inflexible as we assume. It just moves on a different time scale than we are used to because even the people who change cars a lot only buy or lease a new car once a year, at most. And most people keep their cars for 5-10 years.
I agree, and I think your comment about a different time scale is insightful. We've built a way-of-life in this country that is very fuel-dependent. Huge numbers of people live in places where to do anything at all other than sit on the couch at home--whether to work, to shop, to attend a club meeting, to work out, to attend church--means that they have to jump in the car and drive. Heck, some of us even have to drive in order to ride our bikes.
Change will come from buying more fuel-efficient cars, from moving closer to work, from moving into neighborhoods that have a mix of retail within walking distance, from developing mass-transit, and from cutting back on leisure activities involving lots of travel. We'll need to make our neighborhoods more livable, because we won't be able to escape them so easily. All of these changes take time. For many people, there just isn't much that they can do short-term to escape high gasoline prices.
Over the long term though, people will begin to change. I see it already. I see people cutting back on holiday travel. Myself and my neighbors are far less likely these days to make an impulse-trip to the big city an hour's drive away. I do see renewed interest in fuel-efficient vehicles. I'm even convinced that I see more people riding bikes in my town than in the past.
People do change, but not everyone is in a position to change quickly.
ChipSeal
"Anyone who has peered under the hood will tell you that you get less fuel economy with Arco gas than with Chevron, and Arco gas doesn't burn cleanly; it leave soot to build up in your engine. So there is a quality difference with consumer gasoline; that's why people will buy Chevron. Given the quality difference, is a difference in 15 cents worth it? " -
First of all, you mis-understood my post. Chevron at this location is 10 to 15 PERCENT more expensive than across the street. 45 to 55 cents per gallon different.
Second, you err in the quality difference of gasolines. I have delivered gasoline for Texaco. I have waited in line at tank farms waiting to load with Chevron, Shell and Arco trucks, and we were all filling from the same spigot. Each outfit had their own special additives (About a quart of additive per tanker truck) to make their fuel "special". It is hard for me to believe such a small part of the fuel is worth any premium at all.
If I were managing a service station, I would love you as a customer! "Eh, what's 15 cents difference? $2.50 a tank? Hah, no biggie!" If I owned 10,000 gallons of gasoline, I would much rather sell it for $3.14 than $2.99! Just like the real world example in Lost Hills I gave, there is no reason to be competitive on price if folks are still buying it at a huge premium.
Tailwinds!
geo8rge
"Motor vehicles relate just as much to identity, power, and status." The bike sceen in NYC is about the same. The bicycle world is not classless.
"The cars didn't disappear ... they just got smaller." Bike commuting is not really a year round option. Even in NYC is the weather is really bad it is very tempting to use mass transit. I would also say that the reason the cars did not disappear is because zoning laws prevented high density housing near work and shopping areas.
If you want to support bicycle commuting you need to do something very painful. Challenge zone laws, which in the US are mixed up with educational policy and the class system. Good luck.
I-Like-To-Bike
I beg to differ, my friend. Every time we ride for a purpose like doing the shopping or getting to/from work we are opting out of the gas-burning culture, at least for the duration of that journey.
I guess so; in the sense that every time "we" go to sleep we opt out of the culture of rational thought.
jimmuter
I beg to differ, my friend. Every time we ride for a purpose like doing the shopping or getting to/from work we are opting out of the gas-burning culture, at least for the duration of that journey.
Yes, but I don't think ILTB wants to sit around and talk with cyclists about how great it is that he isn't burning gasoline and how everyone in a car is. I don't know what his reasons are for his lifestyle, but in my case I ride because it's fun. I could comfortably afford the gasoline even at double today's prices. I don't think of riding my bike as opting out of anything. If anything, I'm opting in to a culture of self-reliance, exercise, closer engagement with the world around me, and most importantly FUN!
sbhikes
The bicycle world is not classless.
Ain't that the truth.
Thomasdregos
You can live near work but you will pay a hell of a premium price for that spot! In Northern VA , to live near work, the price difference, will outweigh all benefits of living closely unless you can afford the difference in home prices easily! What helps make it worth bike commuting for me is the W&OD trail that was built from an old railroad path. It is relatively straight, level, and runs through business districts. I'd like to see separate roads like this for bicycles with appropriate rest stops and shops.
I-Like-To-Bike
Yes, but I don't think ILTB wants to sit around and talk with cyclists about how great it is that he isn't burning gasoline and how everyone in a car is. I don't know what his reasons are for his lifestyle, but in my case I ride because it's fun. I could comfortably afford the gasoline even at double today's prices. I don't think of riding my bike as opting out of anything. If anything, I'm opting in to a culture of self-reliance, exercise, closer engagement with the world around me, and most importantly FUN!
That IS what I'm talkin' about! IMO, Cycling is not about "we" and "us" disparaging those people (and their so-called culture) who do not make the same choices as "we" and "us".
littlewaywelt
And most people keep their cars for 5-10 years.
average length in the US is 5.7 years according to cartalk.
littlewaywelt
fwiw, I've noticed a dramatic difference in the numbers of ppl walking to work along the residential portion of my bike route. A few years ago, nobody. This morning I counted eight in less than six blocks.
Zeuser
Seems to me the folks who talk about gas the most are cyclists - and the less they use it (directly) the more they talk about it.
Al
I'm the only cyclist in my office and I hear plenty of water cooler talk about gas prices, gas supply, people cutting into lines at the pump, fighting at the pumps and so on from the other people at my office.
I have no idea what the price of gas is these days. The last time I filled up my "gas guzzler" was in April. And I really don't care about the "problems" of being a slave to gasoline.
The constant consumers of gasoline ***** about the pricing. I, as a biker, rave about how the oil industry is losing it's grip on me.
I do take issue with the first post though. The small cars in Europe isn't directly a function of gasoline prices, it's a function of limited space. They just don't have the same room we have in America for large cars. Ever try driving through some european cities? Scary! No wonder even some small cars come with electric folding mirrors. :eek:
Cars aren't as much a status symbol as the first post would let us think it is. Case and point: The biggest sellers are the least "status symbol" cars out there. Most people I know of are more concerned about their budget, having a reliable and comfortable car and will gladly forget about status to have a good form of transportation that suits there needs.
It's been my experience that many people out there trying to show off their "status" with big cars can't really afford those cars in the first place.
Cyclaholic
Yes, but I don't think ILTB wants to sit around and talk with cyclists about how great it is that he isn't burning gasoline and how everyone in a car is. I don't know what his reasons are for his lifestyle, but in my case I ride because it's fun. I could comfortably afford the gasoline even at double today's prices. I don't think of riding my bike as opting out of anything. If anything, I'm opting in to a culture of self-reliance, exercise, closer engagement with the world around me, and most importantly FUN!
That IS what I'm talkin' about! IMO, Cycling is not about "we" and "us" disparaging those people (and their so-called culture) who do not make the same choices as "we" and "us".
Gentlemen, we are in total agreeance. Opting out of a culture was never a concern with me, instead I choose to ride primarily for enjoyment and exercise just like you. I was just looking at it from a different perspective.
bragi
I'm the only cyclist in my office and I hear plenty of water cooler talk about gas prices, gas supply, people cutting into lines at the pump, fighting at the pumps and so on from the other people at my office.
I have no idea what the price of gas is these days. The last time I filled up my "gas guzzler" was in April. And I really don't care about the "problems" of being a slave to gasoline.
The constant consumers of gasoline ***** about the pricing. I, as a biker, rave about how the oil industry is losing it's grip on me.
I do take issue with the first post though. The small cars in Europe isn't directly a function of gasoline prices, it's a function of limited space. They just don't have the same room we have in America for large cars. Ever try driving through some european cities? Scary! No wonder even some small cars come with electric folding mirrors. :eek:
Cars aren't as much a status symbol as the first post would let us think it is. Case and point: The biggest sellers are the least "status symbol" cars out there. Most people I know of are more concerned about their budget, having a reliable and comfortable car and will gladly forget about status to have a good form of transportation that suits there needs.
It's been my experience that many people out there trying to show off their "status" with big cars can't really afford those cars in the first place.
Have you ever been to California? I've actually met people from there who actually, in all honesty, judge people by what they drive. Sick, yes, but true.
Zeuser
Have you ever been to California? I've actually met people from there who actually, in all honesty, judge people by what they drive. Sick, yes, but true.
I've been to California and I've noticed the same thing. But I still don't think it's the majority.
I judge people by what they drive too. Examples:
Hummer : Driver has a self confidence problem.
Mercedes: Has more money than brains.
BMW: Doesn't actually have money, he just wants you to think he does.
Toyota: Doesn't give a crap how other people judge him by his car.
:D
kjmillig
As I'm sure most of us are aware if we stop to think for a moment, we ALL consume petroleum products all day. Things that contain petroleum include all rubber and plastic products, many cosmetics and other hygein products, carpet, vinyl, pens, mechanical pencils, computers and peripherals, ink, bike tires, saddle coverings, chain lube, paint, panniers and backpacks, and the ships, trains, and trucks that transport all the above. And don't forget coal burning electical generating plants, and other factories that use coal, oil, or deisel fuel. Gasoline for cars is only one part of the problem that we love to gripe about because it's so apparent on a daily basis.
littlewaywelt
Have you ever been to California? I've actually met people from there who actually, in all honesty, judge people by what they drive. Sick, yes, but true.
I thought that was standard everywhere. Having a nice car = more disposable income = better job = more successful. In DC the quality of cars in ppl's driveways seems to generally coincide with the neighborhood they live in.
Cars do in fact say a lot about the driver and how he wants to be perceived by others.
Disagree w/ this:
Hummer : Driver has a self confidence problem.
Mercedes: Has more money than brains.
BMW: Doesn't actually have money, he just wants you to think he does.
Toyota: Doesn't give a crap how other people judge him by his car.
Hummer goofball that's buying a label and doesn't realize it's a rebadged gmc (they bought the right to use the name from GM). cracks me up to no end.
Mercedes: wants simple refinement & quality
BWM: appreciates rwd. Anyone that's driven one will know/understand why they win car titles year after year
Toyota: economical, plain, boring, yawn
Zeuser
Mercedes: wants simple refinement & quality
You're kidding right? Mercs are crap! Their service is crap! Sure they look good and the finish is superb but they're pure junk on wheels.
I was actually looking at getting an E class. Then I saw all the problems with it and then I read of all the reports of terrible customer service and I came to the same conclusion that Consumer Reports did: Stay away from Merc.
Why do you think Daimler got rid of Chrysler? Their quality has been dropping every year since the merger. It's pretty clear that getting rid of Chrysler is because they want to regain the quality reputation they once had. It'll take a few years to materialize but for all the mercs built in the last 8-10 years, they're pure junk!
CB HI
Have you ever been to California? I've actually met people from there who actually, in all honesty, judge people by what they drive. Sick, yes, but true.
This from someone who judges cyclist by what they wear?:rolleyes:
You're kidding right? Mercs are crap! Their service is crap! Sure they look good and the finish is superb but they're pure junk on wheels.
I was actually looking at getting an E class. Then I saw all the problems with it and then I read of all the reports of terrible customer service and I came to the same conclusion that Consumer Reports did: Stay away from Merc.
You need to go handbuilt to see Merc's quality imo. New is a rip, buy used. :D
randya
Seems to me the folks who talk about gas the most are cyclists - and the less they use it (directly) the more they talk about it.
do ya really think? you may talk about it motorists live it
mike
Seems to me the folks who talk about gas the most are cyclists - and the less they use it (directly) the more they talk about it.
Al
Ha ha ha. Good one, Noisebeam. I agree 100%:D
geo8rge
"You can live near work but you will pay a hell of a premium price for that spot! "
There are zoning laws that force the price up. For example minimum plot / house sizes. No multifamily. ect
evblazer
You're kidding right? Mercs are crap! Their service is crap! Sure they look good and the finish is superb but they're pure junk on wheels.
I was actually looking at getting an E class. Then I saw all the problems with it and then I read of all the reports of terrible customer service and I came to the same conclusion that Consumer Reports did: Stay away from Merc.
Why do you think Daimler got rid of Chrysler? Their quality has been dropping every year since the merger. It's pretty clear that getting rid of Chrysler is because they want to regain the quality reputation they once had. It'll take a few years to materialize but for all the mercs built in the last 8-10 years, they're pure junk!
Ever since the W123 Mercedes 300D and SD benzes are junk :D (TD was nice but the self leveling suspension is costly to maintain on a 30 year old car)
I bought my 300D with about 200k on the clock and drove it for a few years then sold it for more then I bought it for. Never gave me a bit of trouble :) And everyone loved that car and thought it was so classy and expensive. It rode like a dream compared to any other car I've ever had.
People down here is texas are very very car centric until they are well off financially. This is especially true of my generation and the younger one. My boss and some older coworkers drive yawn boring cars that get them where they are going and allow them to spend money on other things. The younger folks are buying 50k+ cars and with two cars easily have larger car payments then mortgage payments. Which is saying alot since they overbuy their houses too and this area has never had double digit real estate growth so it isnt' like they are doing it for an investment. And they all complain about their car payments and gas prices but about half of them spend more time making fun of my riding a bike how impracticle and unsafe it is along with other stuff such as my solar hot water heater and lawnbott. Mind you the only accident I had was day dreaming into a concrete island (oops) and while I have been here at least 3 of them have totalled their cars.
Zeuser
Yup. Same here. Got a co-worker that makes less than I do, got a BMW X3 and now complains how everything is damn expensive. Blah Blah like "With car payments, insurance, gase, mortgage etc. How are you supposed to make ends meet?"
I didn't say anything but my first thought was: "Get rid of the BMW".
I suspect this is actually more widespread than one might think. There are so many luxury cars out there I suspect many people can't really afford them. Or maybe they can but they just can't afford anything else.
Not a problem with a bike. It's paid for and the maintenance costs are minimal.
bbattle
Anyone who has peered under the hood will tell you that you get less fuel economy with Arco gas than with Cheveron, and Arco gas doesn't burn cleanly; it leave soot to build up in your engine. So there is a quality difference with consumer gasoline; that's why people will buy Cheveron. Given the quality difference, is a difference in 15 cents worth it? Think about it. Most people buy 'round about 15 gallons of gas. At 15 cents difference, this is $2.25 difference for a tank full. And as the price of a gallon increases across the board, from $2 to $3, the 15 cent difference is even less consequential. $2.25 is only about 6% of the cost of a $40 fillup. Going from a $40 fill up to a $60 fillup makes the percentage difference between Arco and Cheveron only about 2%. That's a small price to pay for a bit more fuel economy and a cleaner engine (with less mantainance issues in the future).
And the gas stations are hardly the ones driving the price of gasoline. Especially when there are several on a corner participating in a price war, the gas stations have all cut their prices to the bone. No, it's the price that gas costs to the gas stations which is driving the prices at the pump up. And as the prices go higher, the little, privately owned gas stations get screwed. Down the street from my house, there is a tiny market that serves mostly migrant farm workers which sells gas. They have it bad because they don't sell much gas, so when gas prices rise, they get cleaned out (because they don't have to raise the price because they are still selling off their old tank). When they are now forced to buy a new tankful of gas at the, now peak, wholesale price, and the prices now start to fall, they can't sell a drop. The little corner store was, at first, selling gas at $3 when everyone else was at $3.40 or higher. Now it is selling at $3.60 when everyone else is at $3. Last time the prices spiked and they were stuck with a tank of gas they couldn't sell, their prices remained high for half a year. Last year they were over $3 when the rest of the gas stations in town were at $2.50 or lower. Now, their main business isn't gas, so they aren't necessarily troubled by this trend, but it illustrates how little freedom the individual gas stations have over how they set their price.
And as a last comment, the cheapest place to buy gas in the Portland Metro area (I think) is a station near my work, and it is a Cheveron.
That's bad business. The product you sell now is paying for next week's inventory.
littlewaywelt
You're kidding right? Mercs are crap! Their service is crap! Sure they look good and the finish is superb but they're pure junk on wheels.
I was actually looking at getting an E class. Then I saw all the problems with it and then I read of all the reports of terrible customer service and I came to the same conclusion that Consumer Reports did: Stay away from Merc.
Why do you think Daimler got rid of Chrysler? Their quality has been dropping every year since the merger. It's pretty clear that getting rid of Chrysler is because they want to regain the quality reputation they once had. It'll take a few years to materialize but for all the mercs built in the last 8-10 years, they're pure junk! You'll notice I said "customer wants" not that it's actually the case. Ppl buy cars based on perception not reality.
...and Daimler dropped Chrysler for monetary reasons, not because Merc's quality was going down.
bbattle
You're kidding right? Mercs are crap! Their service is crap! Sure they look good and the finish is superb but they're pure junk on wheels.
I was actually looking at getting an E class. Then I saw all the problems with it and then I read of all the reports of terrible customer service and I came to the same conclusion that Consumer Reports did: Stay away from Merc.
Why do you think Daimler got rid of Chrysler? Their quality has been dropping every year since the merger. It's pretty clear that getting rid of Chrysler is because they want to regain the quality reputation they once had. It'll take a few years to materialize but for all the mercs built in the last 8-10 years, they're pure junk!
Mercedes' quality and service problems had nothing to do with Chrysler. The dealer here did have a bad reputation for service and the cars' quality had been going down for years. Several Mercedes owners jumped ship and bought BMWs.
My wife had an Acura(the fancy Accord model) and wanted another but they rode very low and she couldn't even get it into our driveway without scraping the underside. So she got a BMW. Being in real estate, her car is basically her office. She's gotten so many compliments on the car from her clients that she'll probably buy another one even though she prefers Honda/Acura because their service here is stellar.
Back to gasoline. If the politicians that want to encourage mass transit had any cojones, they'd simply raise fuel taxes on gasoline and give the money back through lower payroll taxes. People would either demand more fuel efficient cars or drive less or both. Raising CAFE just increases the costs of cars and forces carmakers to build cars nobody wants to buy because the price of gasoline isn't hurting them enough to want to buy them. Big subsidies on ethanol just drives up the price of everything so the consumers are the ones subsidising the gas guzzlers through higher prices on food.
Artkansas
Seems to me the folks who talk about gas the most are cyclists - and the less they use it (directly) the more they talk about it.
Al
That's because we inhale the fumes more. It's more of an irritant to our lives, and less of a benefit.
mustang1
Mustang1- you guys need to replace your government with one that steals less of your money. Eliminate some of those taxes.
MaddyFish: Orwell, 1984.
Bushman
I could care less about the price of gas. Its just another business cost that i write off at tax time, and also bill the client as well for it (100% fuel surcharge). Its wonderful being a contractor. I also write off all my bikes as business expenses, because I use the bikes when i go to a clients home to give estimates for treework, then i use the trucks (depending on the job, small truck or the two bigger trucks) for the work.
UmneyDurak
Have you ever been to California? I've actually met people from there who actually, in all honesty, judge people by what they drive. Sick, yes, but true.
Must have been from SoCal.
oilman_15106
I could care less about the price of gas. Its just another business cost that i write off at tax time, and also bill the client as well for it (100% fuel surcharge). Its wonderful being a contractor. I also write off all my bikes as business expenses, because I use the bikes when i go to a clients home to give estimates for treework, then i use the trucks (depending on the job, small truck or the two bigger trucks) for the work.
What mileage allowance does the IRS offer for bicycles? Once you have been through a full compliance audit as our company did, you will be more careful what you try to write off. 6 weeks of IRS h**l.
Bushman
i have no idea what the IRS allows, i dont deal with them here in BC, Canada.
The industry i'm in (tree removal) has a fuel surcharge on every job. Even small one man operations have a fuel charge. Its an itemized charge on the contract agremeent. (for the record the amount i claim with the CRA is the fuel i use for truck transport only, not the amount on the contract.)