Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Hills easier on fixed?

I'm in my 50s and just started riding fixed late last year when I built up my ghetto Schwinn conversion. Love it. I take it on all but the fastest club rides. It's mostly flat around here -- however:

On two club rides over the same hilly stretch of road I used my fixed one day & my geared roadie the other. I swear going up the hills was easier on my fixie! On my road bike I was gasping like a beached fish, while on the fixed I was tired but not overly distressed. (OTOH, spinning at 30+mph on the downhills on the FG was...bracing, shall we say.)

So, was it just me or is there something about the way a fixed gear's momentum pushes you thru the stroke that makes mashing up a hill easier? That's my hypothesis.

One variable: the club ride I rode geared was at a faster pace. But the hilly stretch was on the early outbound section of the "faster" ride where I was presumably fresher, while it was near the end of the "slower" fixed ride where I would presumably be tired.

Also worth noting that I am not by any means a strong climber.

It depends on the hill. If the hill has a linear slope that is within the torque range of your gearing, then yes it will be easier with a fixed gear. If the hill is steeper than your good torque or if the slope changes a lot it'll be harder and slower. Also, if you are mashing on the geared bike you are reducing a lot of it's advantage. Based on my experience, of course.

There's also the "can't slow down" factor. I find myself finishing some hilly routes faster on my fixed gear bike because the need to keep my momentum up pushes me harder. It's more work, though.

I only have a SS (anxiously awaiting my BF IRO to go fixed), but I can climb the small hills around here much better than on my geared bike. Mechanical efficiencies or just that you're forced to do it? I haven't decided yet.

I find climbing hills to be faster, not always easier. It's that crank momentum that makes the pedals seem like they help themselves spin. Granted, my other bike is a touring bike so I'm not in any hurry on it anyway.

.)So, was it just me or is there something about the way a fixed gear's momentum pushes you thru the stroke that makes mashing up a hill easier? That's my hypothesis.



It's a pretty ****ty hypothesis if you think about it.


Some more reasonable ones:
1. fast group ride vs by yourself.
2. You have weak heart and lungs and therefore are better off mashing.
3. Not being able to shift forces you to push through making the whole experience over faster.

It's a pretty ****ty hypothesis if you think about it.

I disagree, completely.

It's only anecdotal, but here's my experience. I've commuted on my old touring bike, my geared road bike, and my fixie. My commute isn't terribly long at 16 miles, but it is very hilly. I was concerned about commuting on the fixie because of the hills, but it proved to be no problem at all. In fact, today I set a personal fastest time getting to work on the fixie. We're not talking 30 seconds faster, we're talking almost 8 minutes. And my average heart rate really isn't any higher... maybe a couple beats faster, but nothing high enough to decide that it's a lot more work.

I think it's just easier to be lazy when you have the gears to fall back on.

Az

I disagree, completely.

Think about it carefully then.

When do you have trouble keeping your foot moving through the dead spot?
When pedalling so slow you don't have enough forward momentum to keep the bike moving and have to actually push the bike forward during the dead spot.

What is the result of letting the bike pull you through the dead spot?
You lose forward momentum.

Is there any difference between fixed and free when you are pushing forwards?
no.

Therefore if you are is a situation where you are having trouble through the dead spot you are also in a situation where there isn't enough forward momentum to pull your foot through. You are therefor pushing throughout the pedal stroke in order to keep the bike moving and there is no difference between fixed and freewheeled.

So, was it just me or is there something about the way a fixed gear's momentum pushes you thru the stroke that makes mashing up a hill easier? That's my hypothesis.

while the power advantage of this is small, i find the psychological effect to be quite significant. the fact that i'm exerting myself to get up the hill magnifies the sensation that the bike is pushing me through my pedal stroke when it's at it's weakest point.

the fact that it's pushing my feet actually makes the whole system less mechanically efficient, but if i can stay ahead of the pedals i can choose the points in my pedal stroke where i want to apply power and still maintain a smooth cadence. this is both a good and a bad thing though.

when i really notice this is after riding fixed only for an extended period of time. i really feel like i struggle on the hills on my road bike. i'll be going at a decent pace, but my pedaling has gotten lazy down there and therefore i'm hurting much more than i should be.

Think about it carefully then.

I'm not quite saying it's true, but I wouldn't dismiss is as as a terribly stupid hypothesis. I think any benefit would come as the result of a good pedal stroke. I think it could have a positive affect if you maintain a pretty solid stroke, there would be much less constant momentum lost rather than using the momentum to keep your feet moving.

I'm not saying it's gospel. Where are those physicists? I'll support the anecdotal evidence though and say I like climbing on my fixed more and very rarely leave the saddle.

I think any benefit would come as the result of a good pedal stroke. I think it could have a positive affect if you maintain a pretty solid stroke, there would be much less constant momentum lost rather than using the momentum to keep your feet moving.

If that was the case you would be just as well off with a freewheel.

This doesn't require physicists just people with the capacity to reasonably think about the issue. In fact people trying to apply complex physics are probably just over complicating and obscuring the basic logical flaws in their argument(see that ****ty essay).

If that was the case you would be just as well off with a freewheel.

This doesn't require physicists just people with the capacity to reasonably think about the issue.

I'm saying there's a possibility to maintain momentum.

I'm sorry I left my MENSA card at home, I'm going to go watch me some grass growin'.

I can't explain it myself, but yes. There are hills i hit a "head" wall on riding even my carbon fiber TT that i can push through without blinking on my lugged nishiki fixed road conversion beater-- with full fenders. I think it has something to do with your momentum not being "lost" as is the case with a freewheel, but i'm not completely sure. I attack hills faster on fixed, though the advantage seems to go out the window on steeper ones...

WTF is wrong with you people!!!!


if you are maintaining momentum(ie pushing through the entire pedal stroke) then there is absolutely no difference between fixed and freewheeled.

If you are letting the pedals pull you around momentum IS lost.

As far as tt bike vs conversion the difference is likely in how well you can breathe.

I'm not in my aero bars on my tt bike during a climb, but rather the bullhorns-- so breathing has 0 to do with it.

Not to start an argument with you, as we all know how unpleasant you can make that experience, but do you see something a little odd with the number of cyclists in this thread who seem to experience the SAME THING vs. the one individual who isn't agreeing?
Just sayin', maybe YOU should stop and think about it (or maybe find a hill to climb).

If nothing else, the fact that I can't shift makes it much easier to just deal with the fact that I have a hill coming up, and I have to get the hell up there somehow, so you just pound it out on a fixed gear. I also think it's a lot more fun to climb on a fixed gear rather than a road bike, up to a certain point (that point is embodied by 18th St. here in PGH; anything steeper or longer than that and I am no longer enjoying my fixed gear riding experience). So basically what I'm getting at is maybe everybody in this thread is right. dutret is right because there is little to no real mechanical advantage to fixed gear riding up hills, but rather a series of psychological advantages that make it seem easier, coupled with the fact that I know when I'm starting a hill on my fixed gears, I bomb it at the bottom so the momentum can carry me part way up the hill. Another thing with fixed gear that could maybe make it feel easier is that if you're staying enough in front of the pedals and not relying on them to throw you over the dead spot at the top, or pull you through the dead spot at the bottom, it makes it easier to turn nice little circles without jerking or wasted effort.

So, whatever, I like bikes.

I'm not in my aero bars on my tt bike during a climb, but rather the bullhorns-- so breathing has 0 to do with it.

Not to start an argument with you, as we all know how unpleasant you can make that experience, but do you see something a little odd with the number of cyclists in this thread who seem to experience the SAME THING vs. the one individual who isn't agreeing?
Just sayin', maybe YOU should stop and think about it (or maybe find a hill to climb).

so the bullhorns on your tt bike are in the same relative position to the saddle as the bars on your conversion? I never thought you would be climbing on aerobars but most TT bikes still don't have geometry ideal for climbing.

Everyone in this thread is comparing climbing on a geared bike to climbing with a fixed gear. It is my opinion that there is a much bigger difference in the lack of gears then the freewheel. Even if that wasn't the case and there is some advantage to fixed it is easy to see that all this keeping momentum smooth pedal stroke thinking is bull****. It simply doesn't make sense since if you are using the pedals to pull you around you are sapping forward momentum and if you are pushing through the entire pedal stroke then there is no difference between fixed and free.

Another thing with fixed gear that could maybe make it feel easier is that if you're staying enough in front of the pedals and not relying on them to throw you over the dead spot at the top, or pull you through the dead spot at the bottom, it makes it easier to turn nice little circles without jerking or wasted effort.

No it doesn't. Is everyone being deliberately obtuse and trolling? If you are keeping up with the pedals it is just like having a freewheel. Why is this hard to understand.

I was trying to be diplomatic at least.

Everyone hates you. Just leave.

http://z.about.com/d/math/1/0/I/D/Obtuseangle.jpg

F*** the facts, whatever they may be. I like riding fixed up hills more than my geared.

So I just bought a Pista (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=314461) yesterday. It has 78.8 Gear Inches. 48x16T.

Am I screwed on the hills? Should I get a larger cog or a smaller ring?

Am I screwed on the hills? Should I get a larger cog or a smaller ring?

not necessarily, give it a shot before buying stuff.

i'd probably gear down, but i like to spin.

So I just bought a Pista (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=314461) yesterday. It has 78.8 Gear Inches. 48x16T.

Am I screwed on the hills? Should I get a larger cog or a smaller ring?

larger cog is cheaper. Not screwed but something closer to 70 is probably better.

Larger cog.

Dura Ace? Can I add a bigger cog with the same chain - say 18T?

No. You'll need to expand the size of the chain, most likely. Get the 18T though, it'll be worth it.

it depends where the wheel is in the track ends now. Likely not.

Dura-ace is not made over 16t.

I got an 18t EAI cog for my Pista (Im assuming you mean Bianchi) and it fits nicely. I had to screw it on backward to get a decent chainline though.

Depends how far back in the dropouts your wheel is now. Each tooth will move it up [I forget, like 1/4"?], so if you have that much room, you're alright, if you don't, you'll need a new one.

Not to start an argument with you, as we all know how unpleasant you can make that experience, but do you see something a little odd with the number of cyclists in this thread who seem to experience the SAME THING vs. the one individual who isn't agreeing?
Just sayin', maybe YOU should stop and think about it (or maybe find a hill to climb).

Being in the majority doesn't make you right. This is a matter of fact, not opinion.

There's no inherent mechanical advantage to climbing hills on a fixed. The perception that there's a mechanical advantage probably comes from one of two factors:
Psychological: You can't wimp out and downshift.
Physiological: Not downshifting on hills over time builds stronger legs.

I guarantee that it would be just as easy on a geared bike with the same geometry and gearing.

Being in the majority doesn't make you right. This is a matter of fact, not opinion.

There's no inherent mechanical advantage to climbing hills on a fixed. The perception that there's a mechanical advantage probably comes from one of two factors:
Psychological: You can't wimp out and downshift.
Physiological: Not downshifting on hills over time builds stronger legs.

I guarantee that it would be just as easy on a geared bike with the same geometry and gearing.



Fixed for (e)Fficiency
Fixed-gear bike is considerably lighter than a multi-speed bike of comparable quality, due to the abscence of the rear brake, derailers, shift levers, and extra sprockets. A fixed-gear bike also has a substantially shorter chain.

A properly set-up fixed gear has a perfectly straight chainline. This, plus the abscence of derailer pulleys, makes a real improvement in the drive-train efficiency, an improvement you can feel.


Sheldon thinks it's easier and so do I.

Sheldon thinks it's easier and so do I.

with the exception of the 300g wasted on a rear brake not of those are exclusive to a fixed gear.

when i really notice this is after riding fixed only for an extended period of time. i really feel like i struggle on the hills on my road bike. i'll be going at a decent pace, but my pedaling has gotten lazy down there and therefore i'm hurting much more than i should be.
+ a whole bunch. I used my fixed gear all last fall and winter for commuting. When I switched back to my road bike, any hill climbing ability I had was completely gone. I find it much easier to climb hills on a fixed gear bike.

There's no inherent mechanical advantage to climbing hills on a fixed.

What you mean to say is, "there's no inherent mechanical advantage that anyone in this thread has correctly considered".
Seing as how the same person (in my example) is riding fixed as is riding geared/freewheel, physiological difference in leg strength isn't an option.
And, since i don't usually downshift on the hills in mention (steeper ones yeah, but i have a harder time w/ fixed on these particular climbs as i mentioned earlier), the posed downshifting scenereo isn't an option either.
This "phenomenon" is something i noticed as very apparent and discussed quite awhile ago when i first attacked the hilly loop i had been doing on a geared bike on a fixed gear bike. It was remarkably easier; i was zipping up the hill at a faster pace, and actually recovered faster at the top. Weight isn't an issue, as the geared bike is a full carbon fiber tt beam frame (trek y-foil), and weighs like nothing. Geometry COULD be an issue, but the fixes i've done that climb on are similar enough where i can't imagine that being an issue. Some people say that things like increased chain length and a derailer eat a percentage of the power being transferred to the cassette. Dunno if that's true or not.
I also know that the power i just put into a crank is going to come back to help me in the back wheel's momentum, if just a little bit. When you're attacking a hill and you stop moving on a freewheel bike, you momentarily coast a little. Not a lot, but a little. That momentum, when on a fixed gear bike, translates into your crank turning a little. Again, not a lot-- just a little. You don't get this on a freewheel, period. If you factor these things together, assuming they're true, the little bit of direct force not being absorbed by the drivetrain and derailer + the momentum (that while small IS there) does make for a little bit of "edge" when pushing up a hill. This momentum disappears when the hills are steeper (or at least is shrunken into irrelevance), which might explain why the geared bike provides the advantage.
Granted, this is all theory; i don't even own a power meter, and really don't know enough about physics to know if this is possible. What i do know is, without downshifting, hills are easier for me and others in this thread on a fixed gear, but tougher on a geared bike w/ freewheel, and i doubt it's in EVERYONE'S head.

Too many variables. Some hills may appear to feel easy on a fixed gear. But when you're talking long major climbs, nothing beats a geared bike, regardless of how you're geared on fixie.

with the exception of the 300g wasted on a rear brake not of those are exclusive to a fixed gear.

I am referreing to the mechanical efficiency from the lack of pulleys in the derailer. In that sense, a SS has the same benefit. It's admittedly a marginal gain however it is tangible.

+ a whole bunch. I used my fixed gear all last fall and winter for commuting. When I switched back to my road bike, any hill climbing ability I had was completely gone. I find it much easier to climb hills on a fixed gear bike.

Then you are likely getting weaker cardiovascularly on the fixed or you are developing bad pedal habits.

Too many variables. Some hills may appear to feel easy on a fixed gear. But when you're talking long major climbs, nothing beats a geared bike, regardless of how you're geared on fixie.

Of course, but I think the discussion is assuming the same gear inches in both road and fixed gear bikes. If that is not the assumption, then it should be. Obviously, it is more advantageous to have lower gears on command. When I climb, I like to have a steady 90 rpm cadence, regardless of speed - not possible on the fixed.

interesting discussion here-- I ride fixed and road about equally (distance-wise) on an annual basis. This year, I have done about 80% of my riding fixed because I took my fixie to "Ride the Rockies"-- a week long 400+ mile ride. I was with comparable riders who were on geared bikes. On the flats and rollers, there was no noticable difference in speed. On the uphills, there is one guy who is a goat--and he was off the front, but I stayed with everyone else without a problem--evn on long (2+ mile hills). On Independence Pass (22 miles), I dropped a little after the halfway point, but I think that was mainly due to not being able to coast (rest) at all...It was tough, but it wasn't impossible. I only dropped below 6 miles an hour once on the hill--right before the top, where it ramps up.

Going down, on the other hand, is a different story... everyone passed me going down the hill (15 miles)

did this add to the conversation? probably not. I tend to think it is easier to climb fixed unless the hill is really steep or really long. I ride a 48x18.

train safe-

I live just off the divide and there are precious little flats up here. I believe it is all in my head, like Sheldon says, fixed, single speed and geared for going up. In that order and going down anything will do, thank you.

I have to agree with Sheldon. At the same gear ratio the fixed gear as a mechanical system is more efficient. Therefore on the same upslope grade (and same weight bike), it would be somewhat easier on the fixed gear.
On a fixed gear, your legs take the place of the rear derailleur, so if your muscle fibers are better conditioned for power than speed, it will be more efficient for you to push harder on a fixie than spin in a low gear.
At best the fixed gear is a compromise. I ride 42x15 in a hilly area. Downhills are the limiting factor (max spin) for me. The other night I was gaining on a roadie going up hill. But coasting down the other side, he pulled away- until the next hill, where I passed him sitting down as he stood up on his pedals in a low gear.

Then you are likely getting weaker cardiovascularly on the fixed or you are developing bad pedal habits.
I'm sure it's both, actually. I was never spinning enough to get the CV benefit. And it's quite easy to become a lazy pedaler on a fixed-gear.

I think my legs got stronger, which is good, but it took a while to get the whole system working together. It still doesn't work as well as I'd like it to, but that's a completely different thread.

Hills are easier on a geared bike as you're able to gear up/down to optimize your pedal stroke versus that of the gradient that you're climbing up. I will admit that riding fixed up a hill seems easier, due to the fact that you've got to suck it up and crank it up the hill, lest you have to get off and walk. I'm no mechanical engineer, nor do I know much about the mathematics of inertia, but I'm fairly certain that a fixed-gear bicycle drivetrain assembly doesn't hold much inertial force, well, at least enough to make a significant difference on a hill.

I'm going to say it's not easier, but faster. Can of worms?

while the power advantage of this is small, i find the psychological effect to be quite significant. the fact that i'm exerting myself to get up the hill magnifies the sensation that the bike is pushing me through my pedal stroke when it's at it's weakest point...(remainder removed for brevity)

This reply (including the parts I edited out) strikes me as the most reasonable. One of the things I like about riding fixed is the sensation, even if much of it is psychological, that the bike's momentum is helping me maintain a smooth stroke and to pedal in circles.

Whether standing and mashing (I also pull up on the stroke with the opposite foot) or simply applying more power in the saddle with "circle" technique (though I do not claim to have great pedal technique), it just feels less "jerky" on a fixed than a geared bike. I like it, whatever the reason! Moreover, I felt I had to do less standing and mashing on the fixed. But maybe I was just having a good day.

I really didn't expect to start such a contentious exchange but to reply to a couple of points made by another:

1) Both rides were group rides.

2) True, my cardio fitness isn't the greatest. I have never been especially athletic. And at this stage of my life I'm probably as good as I'll get. And (ahem) let's see how some of you whippersnappers are doing in your mid 50s! :)

As for the type of hills, they were fairly steep but short. This part of Michigan is mostly flat, with some low glacial moraine hills in our western 'burbs (my ride skirted the edge of that landscape), and you guys who live in places like the Alleghenies or Rockies would justifiably sneer at them as glorified molehills.

Anyway, the bottom line for me is that riding fixed has been a great discovery. I think I might even do a century on my fixie someday. I would have thought that crazy talk a short while ago.

WTF is wrong with you people!!!!


For one thing, we lack the social skills and charm that make you such a popular character both online and in real life.

I personally find that going uphill on my fixie isn't exactly easier but is usually faster as long as the hill is not terribly steep.

If its moderately steep, but short, no problem, just stand up and sprint, this usually means I pass all the geared bikes who had previously geared down in preperation for the climb. My heart rate will get really high, but I can usually hold this kind of effort for about 2 minutes if I have to. I'm usually quite spent at the top.

If on a shallow grade, I try to keep my cadence the same as it was on the flat and conciously use the entire pedal stroke. This usually means I pass all of the geared bikes who keep their cadence by gearing down and thus slowing down.

There is one big exception, the really steep hills. These hills require me to crank really hard at a very slow pace. I sometimes end up weaving back and forth over the road (in a switchback manner). It requires a lot of quad strength and a lot of up-stroke effort. And once, I even had to walk. In these situation, I usually end up slowing to about 6 mph or slower (sometimes almost standing still), and the gear bikes can usually gear way down and keep pedaling at closer to 10mph.

I agree with dutret: there is no reason to suppose that riding fixed gives you an advantage in climbing due to "momentum". When you think about it the idea just doesn't make sense.

All the other arguments about chainline and derailleur wheels are a separate issue and it seems like people in this thread are mushing them together.

That said, I love fixed climbing! It's the longer descents I find really tough.

...I ... know that the power I just put into a crank is going to come back to help me in the back wheel's momentum, if just a little bit. When you're attacking a hill and you stop moving on a freewheel bike, you momentarily coast a little. Not a lot, but a little. That momentum, when on a fixed gear bike, translates into your crank turning a little. Again, not a lot-- just a little. You don't get this on a freewheel, period. [emphasis added - BC] ...[It]...does make for a little bit of "edge" when pushing up a hill. This momentum disappears when the hills are steeper (or at least is shrunken into irrelevance), which might explain why the geared bike provides the advantage.
...What i do know is, without downshifting, hills are easier for me and others in this thread on a fixed gear, but tougher on a geared bike w/ freewheel...

That nicely expresses what I was groping for and what I seem to experience on the typical small, mild to moderate hills around here. My OP basically was asking as one fairly new to fixed gear riding, do others experience this and if so, was this a likely reason?

Whatever the reason, I like it.

BTW, a prior post to the contrary it seems that physics has everything (or very nearly everything) to do with the question, rather than being a needless complication or impediment to clear thinking. Thanks all.

Had a nice easy ride on a flat MUP shortly after my OP with my young niece who's been begging me to take her biking. Just mooching along on a fixed gear is pleasant, too. (But I dropped her like a rock on the last 1/4 mile sprint :) )

it is easy to see that all this keeping momentum smooth pedal stroke thinking is bull****. It simply doesn't make sense since if you are using the pedals to pull you around you are sapping forward momentum and if you are pushing through the entire pedal stroke then there is no difference between fixed and free.

yeah, except its not. on a freewheel you have to apply 100% positive force to keep the cranks spinning at the same (relative) rate as the drive wheel. what happens when you dont? well, you lose momentum, but also your feet stop moving, or they move slower than your current gear ratio.

if you don't apply 100% force on a fixed gear, you still lose momentum, and thus speed, but your feet still keep moving around. So you can slack a bit and your feet will still be in the right motions to provide more power. I think this is what people notice. you're right that if you push through the whole stroke it wont make a difference on fixed/free, but in practice a lot of people obviously don't do that. and if you stop pedalling on a freewheel and have to reposition your pedals to get a good downstroke, that's another factor to take in.

To be fair, this effect is probably pretty small, but obviously it's not so small that people riding fixed don't notice it.