Road Bike Racing - TdF Question...

This is the first year I've REALLY tried to understand what's going on in the race, though I've watched it many times. Is there anyplace that explains the dynamics of what is, or should be, happening? For example, the USPS team is there to protect Lance?? Why wouldn't THEY try to win? And, is L.A. sitting where he wants to be at 12th overall after stage 3?

If anyone knows of such a place, I would appreciate the link!

Thanks,

Michelle

Lance is the Captain of the team the rest of the guys ar "domestiques" there to run block for Lance bring him water food etc. If he wins the team wins that's how it works. Lance is fine in the position he's in because he typically OWNS the mountain stages and will begin his march from there. I'd be concerned if he was around 50th but in the position he's got now he will pull it out.

the best way to learn is probably to watch and listen to phil and paul on OLN, they really do a good job giving out information. also ask specific questions here.
the team protects lance by always keeping a couple of riders around him to help keep an eye out for crashes and things like that.
it's not what place he is in right now thats important he's not behind in time very much and im sure they are happy with there placement.
they arent trying to win right now. in the flat stages its very difficult to pick up large amounts of time, and i dont think the peleton would ever let Lance take off on a break away.
they will wait for the time trials and mountains to try and take over the lead. its easier to grab large amounts of time then because they dont have to battle the peleton.
hope that helps some :)

Hmmmmmm, thanks for the info. I have been learning from Phil and Paul, but I still get confused, at times. LOL

I figured his position was good, I know he's not far behind in time. :D So, theoretically, the ONLY guy from the USPS team that they would ALLOW to win would be Lance? Same with other teams? They have a big guy being served by little guys? (So-to-speak?)

Also, from the names I've heard, it seems that the USPS team is not all American; is that correct? That just seems odd to me. I also wonder how many Americans are in this race, overall? I saw that one of them was injured in the crash on day 1 and is out of the race....but he wasn't on USPS.

SIGH....thanks again!! :D

5

http://tdf.olntv.com/

Also the team members nationality should not be confusing, as the team does not represent the US like teams do in the Olympics. It's just a US sponsored team with an American team captain.

Okay, thanks for the info, Toninator! And, Joe, sorry I posted this in the wrong forum! :(

Ok i saw this posted somewhere but couldnt find it so i did some quick figureing on my own off of the gc.
6 Aus
4 Aut
8 BEL
3 COL
1 CRO
2 CZE
4 DEN
43 ESP
1 EST
39 FRA
1 GBR
16 GER
1 HUN
29 ITA
1 KAZ
1 LAT
6 NED
1 NOR
1 POR
1 RSA
5 RUS
1 SLO
5 SUI
2 UKR
5 USA
1 VEN
188

Two American's were injured, but only one is out.

Tyler Hamilton is an ex-postal member and sustained a fractured collar bone, but is still in.

Levi Liepheimer (sp?) sustained significant low back injuries to prevent him from continuing.

Too badd too! I liked Levi.

The more you watch the more you understand.

To sum up, the domestiques do most of the work, and the captain gets all the glory! The domestiques role is to keep their captain well rested, so at the finish, the Captain is fresh and can sprint to the win!

L8R

Originally posted by BikerDawg

I figured his position was good, I know he's not far behind in time. :D So, theoretically, the ONLY guy from the USPS team that they would ALLOW to win would be Lance? Same with other teams? They have a big guy being served by little guys? (So-to-speak?)


As captain, Lance is being positioned as the General Classification (Yellow Jersey) contender on the USPS squad. The rest of the team work for him. Their job is to help him win the overall GC and wear yellow in Paris.

To that end, the team may or may not want to win the Team Time Trial tomorrow. The team may also want to win the best team competition.

Other members of the USPS squad might be positioned to win individual stages, or even other jerseys (Green for sprinter, Polka Dot for King of the Mountains, White for best young rider). All of that is pretty theoretical though. The bottom line is, Lance's job is to wear the yellow jersey in Paris, and the rest of the team's job is to help him make that happen.

An interesting thing happened yesterday when Brad McGee, wearing yellow, served as lead out man for his friend and team mate, Baden Cooke. Cooke won the stage, McGee retained the yellow jersey. Cooke is the team's sprinter. It was a classy move on McGee's part. McGee can't really expect to be a contender for the General Classification win, though.

Last year, in a post-Tour race (which one, anyone???) Lance paid George Hincapie back for his loyalty and hard work by serving as his domestique. How many guy's can say Lance works for them?

Lance's position right now is very good. He doesn't have the yellow jersey yet, so he doesn't have to defend it. Watch for him to take charge in the mountains. Watch for the other GC contenders to try to keep that from happening.

Lance is a yellow jersey contender among others, like Jan Ullrich and Joseba Beloki. EriK Zabel (Team Telekom) is a contender for the Green Jersey, which he will be defending against other sprinters. Different teams may have different goals in the Tour.

Watch for opportunists to make long, heroic breakaways (their team sponsors love it--gets their name on TV for hours) and try to grab stage wins. Also watch for the strange alliances that sometimes form between individual riders across team lines.

The Tour is a great sport spectacle: part race, part circus and part soap opera.

Ah, yes. Protecting the captain means not only protecting him from crashes, but also chasing down breakaways and keeping the captain sheltered from the wind. Lance will draft his team mates most of the time. In the mountain stages when he will try to take command of the race, his teammates will take turns pulling for him until they are all spent. Then Lance, relatively fresh, will make his move, and try to drop all the competition.

Originally posted by BikerDawg
I figured his position was good, I know he's not far behind in time.

One thing to keep in mind, if you are not already aware of it, Lance is really in second or third place. Lance doesn’t care about these early leaders taking time out of him, because most of them will lose tons of time trying to haul themselves over the mountains. If for some reason Jan was to go out on a break, then you would see Postal in a frenzy to haul him back in, because Jan will not loose as much time as these other guys.

Originally posted by RegularGuy
Last year, in a post-Tour race (which one, anyone???) Lance paid George Hincapie back for his loyalty and hard work by serving as his domestique. How many guy's can say Lance works for them?

SF Grand Prix :)

Originally posted by The Toninator
Also the team members nationality should not be confusing, as the team does not represent the US like teams do in the Olympics. It's just a US sponsored team with an American team captain.

The Tour used to include national teams. The Tour, as it is now run, is made up of commercially sponsored teams. USPS delivers mail. Saeco makes capuccino machines. iBanesto and Rabobank are banks. Once is a Spanish national lottery that benefits the blind. Etc.

Originally posted by Joe Gardner
SF Grand Prix :)

Thanks, Joe! You saved me doing research!

Originally posted by Michael Marshal
If for some reason Jan was to go out on a break, then you would see Postal in a frenzy to haul him back in

Man wouldn't that be great! Talk about edge of your seat TV!
But it will more than likly not happen.:(

Originally posted by KevinG
Man wouldn't that be great! Talk about edge of your seat TV!
But it will more than likly not happen.:(

I thought that was awesome seeing the way Simoni attacked in the Giro this year (on a couple stages... early in the stage)

Originally posted by BikerDawg
So, theoretically, the ONLY guy from the USPS team that they would ALLOW to win would be Lance?

I'm sure they would let the others would win if they could (IF THEY COULD), as long as they still did their job. Heras isn't going to attack Lance in the mountains in going for a stage win, for example. He is going to stay in front of lance to clear the wind for him, until he is out of energy.

One thing is, I wish Lance focused more on winning the mountain stages rather than just gaining time on the overall contenders (because of the 20s bonus).

As of the 12th place thing... position doesn't matter (right now). Time deficit matters. If he was in 150th, but just 1 minute off of the leader, I would say he is in no trouble. (In 2001 I think he was over a half hour down from the overall leader, and in like 30th place before they hit the mountains)

Ulrich has like 5 seconds ahead of Lance right now. That 5 seconds will mean nothing by the end of the race.

What was it, 2 years ago where Lance and the other GC contenders were some 30 minutes back during the first flat stages of the race? So Lance is sitting in an almost perfect position right now.


One thing is, I wish Lance focused more on winning the mountain stages rather than just gaining time on the overall contenders (because of the 20s bonus).

The tour is very much still wrapped up in tradition and such, it's considered "bad form" for the GC leader to win lots of stages, or to "win" other jersey's. Just the same as on the last day of the tour the peleton will "wait" for the GC if he were to fall behind, etc. I think this is more of a newer tradition (considering the commercialization of the tour in the past few years/decades) though.

Andrew

Originally posted by Ajay213
The tour is very much still wrapped up in tradition and such, it's considered "bad form" for the GC leader to win lots of stages, or to "win" other jersey's.

But that is exactly what Merckx did.

You will see alot more of the team action playing out in the mountains. The USPS team is just cruel there. They will kill everyone's legs, and Lance will ride away like he's going down hill.

What does it mean that his teammates chase down breakaways? How do they stop people that breakaways? It doesn't involve any breaking the knee caps of people who try to break away? ha ha.... :)

The team will move to the front of the peloton, and push the pace faster and faster, until they catch back up to the riders. They force the faster tempo on the other riders, while allowing the team captain to draft and conserve his energy still.

Originally posted by Ajay213


The tour is very much still wrapped up in tradition and such, it's considered "bad form" for the GC leader to win lots of stages, or to "win" other jersey's.

I have never heard this.

Thanks for all the inofrmation, gang. I think I'm getting it little by little. By the time it's over, I'll understand. LOL :rolleyes:

Originally posted by The Toninator
I have never heard this.

I think its an individual respect thing among riders (different than some publicized unwritten rule like not attacking while the leader is going potty)

And I can't find where I saw/read it anywhere, but basically what Brent said, it's more of a "gentleman's agreement" between the riders than something is hard and fast written in stone. And it sounded plausible considering the "group" of riders in the peleton can make life very rough for you if you collectively piss them off.


But that is exactly what Merckx did.

True, but Merckx rode in a different era than what we have today, in his day the tour didn't have the global popularity it does now, and winning stages means big things for the small teams in terms of TV/news exposure (read: making sponsors happy). Now could Lance or Ullrich or other top GC contenders do the same thing these days? Who knows, probably not.

Andrew

Bicycling Magazine has a pretty good primer on Tour basics.

Click here. (http://www.bicycling.com/tourdefrance/facts/article/0,6721,4605,00.html)

I know cross-posting is a no-no, but I think this information also belongs on the thread about OLN's tour coverage. Forgive me

Regular Guy's a cross-poster! Nah nah nah nah nah nah!! :p ;)

Anyway, I don't understand this "gentleman's agreement" thing....I feel like, if you snooze, you lose. It's all part of the strategy, no? If someone falls, oopppss! There's your chance to take a lead. If someone has to potty, eventually the guy that passed will have to pee, too. Oh, well.....see how lost I am?!

Guess all isn't fair in the TdF. :confused:

I see your frustration and question BikerDawg on this "gentleman's aggrement" thing...Actually I think a good example of it happened in the 2001 tour..They were in the mountains and headed down a mountain. Lance and Jan Ullrich were together screaming down the mountain, suddenly Jan looses control and the wheel of his teamate, and falls off the side of the road and into the ditch!! Fourtounatly he wasen't hurt at all, cause it was grassy and not rough, but lance went screaming by, but the moment Jan went off the road, Lance sat up and waited for Jan and the teamate to come back, then they started racing again...Lance said he did it out of respect for Jan, and I know that he respect Jan a lot, so I believe it...So I guess that's an example of it, good sportsmanship..

Benjamin

What else would you expect from an "American Football" fan. Particularly a fan of the Browns. :):) J/K!!!

Seriously, though, I DO think it is something a lot of (US) Americans don't get.
Lance didn't get it initially either. He does now.
Something about the Italian champion that slammed on his brakes, rather than take third at the end of a race that Lance (pre-cancer Lance) was going to win, because he refused to share the podium with the brash young "American" who had cussed him out earlier in the race. (I forget the riders name)

Originally posted by ChipRGW
What else would you expect from an "American Football" fan. Particularly a fan of the Browns. :):) J/K!!!

Seriously, though, I DO think it is something a lot of (US) Americans don't get.
Lance didn't get it initially either. He does now.
Something about the Italian champion that slammed on his brakes, rather than take third at the end of a race that Lance (pre-cancer Lance) was going to win, because he refused to share the podium with the brash young "American" who had cussed him out earlier in the race. (I forget the riders name)

Hey, now!! Not nice to make fun of one's football team! ;)

Yeah, okay....so, I still don't get the agreement. Is this not a race? You can respect someone and still kick butt if they happen to fall. Guess it makes it more challenging to slow down and wait for someone to catch up, but I don't know of any other sport where this kind of thing happens. For example, I'm going out to throw darts with a few friends tonight, but I won't throw off just so they can "catch up" and make a game of it. I'll just keep doing what I can, the best I can. Guess I'm just not a gentleman!! ;) LOL

Michelle

Another Tour Tradition is that the Captain (i.e. like Lance) splits his winnings with the whole team! Even the cooks...etc.

There was a rumor that Lance did not do this last year, but Lance publicly stated he did.

Another example of the "Gentlemen's schtick" is during 2002 tour (I think, I may be wrong, I'm bad at remembering dates). Marco Pantani and Lance battled up a climb, just before the line, Lance sat up and let Marco take the win.

Also, sometimes it becomes evedent that the Domestique is a stronger rider than the captain. Greg LeMond won his first Tour in controversy because he felt he was stronger and he went against his Team Manager's decision.

L8R

Originally posted by BikerDawg
I don't know of any other sport where this kind of thing happens.

In real football (soccer), if someone on team 'Z' gets injured but the ref hasn't called anything, it is customary for team 'Y' to kick the ball out of bounds in order to stop the game and let the injured player recover. Then, it is customary for team 'Z' to throw the ball in to a member of team 'Y' when the game is back on.

Simple sportsmanship and gentlemanly play. It really is hard for Americans to get this, as we live in an extremely competitive culture.

That said, I do see your point, BikerDawg, that a contest is a contest, and you're there to win. I wouldn't let my friends catch up to me in darts either. I just think some sports and competitions are built around more of a respectful nature than others. It is what makes sports like bicycle racing and [soccer] so classy.

Originally posted by BikerDawg
Hey, now!! Not nice to make fun of one's football team! ;)

Yeah, okay....so, I still don't get the agreement. Is this not a race? You can respect someone and still kick butt if they happen to fall. Guess it makes it more challenging to slow down and wait for someone to catch up, but I don't know of any other sport where this kind of thing happens. For example, I'm going out to throw darts with a few friends tonight, but I won't throw off just so they can "catch up" and make a game of it. I'll just keep doing what I can, the best I can. Guess I'm just not a gentleman!! ;) LOL


There is a big difference between letting someone catch up because they are weaker, and letting someone catch up because they got taken out by someone.

Attacking when a rider is relieving himself is kind of cheap play, I think... Just like intentionally trying to injure an opposing player in football. You figure fellow athletes would have more respect than that.

Beating a man to the finish line, while he is stopping to pee, isnt beating him. :D

They want to win on equal terms. They dont allow get offs and equipment failures to steal a race from a strong rider. I think it is very honorable. Our American way of thinking, is to win at all costs.

Okay, so let me think....smell the burning??

If biker A see's biker B, um, relieving himself, he will slow down and wait for biker B to catch up. Now, what if bikers A & B are racing for 1st place? Does biker A really give biker B the chance to kick his rear?? You are all saying YES, and I do see the class involved, but I still don't "get it." Guess I'll have to watch some more of this TdF and really try to figure it out. LOL

If you haven't noticed, I can be VERY stubborn sometimes. (Thanks, Dad!)

Good riding,

Michelle

I think cyclists get to know each other alot better than alot of athletes do as well. They spend hours together in the Peleton. They talk and mingle as they ride, so they become friends while they compete. It's not like football, where you are trying to kill your opponent.

Remember, the TdF is close to 3 weeks long. It's not the individual Stage win that's critical, so a lot of courtesy comes into play.

Plus, many times the Mailloux June is already decided days before the finish, the last couple stages are "usually" a formality. The race is won days before during the climbs.

If the race "IS" close between two riders, you'll see less courtesy and more competition.

L8R

Originally posted by BikerDawg
Okay, so let me think....smell the burning??

If biker A see's biker B, um, relieving himself, he will slow down and wait for biker B to catch up. Now, what if bikers A & B are racing for 1st place? Does biker A really give biker B the chance to kick his rear?? You are all saying YES, and I do see the class involved, but I still don't "get it." Guess I'll have to watch some more of this TdF and really try to figure it out. LOL
Michelle

Riders usually relieve themselves in the first couple hours of a race or when there isn't a lot of action going on. You'll never see a situation where there are two men in a break with 10K remaining and one stops to take a leak. They know when to hold it.

And it's not so much that riders slow down when someone has to go. It's more that they won't attack an incapacitated rider.

Originally posted by BikerDawg
If biker A see's biker B, um, relieving himself, he will slow down and wait for biker B to catch up. Now, what if bikers A & B are racing for 1st place?
Biker A doesn't necessarily slow down, but he won't take advantage of the opportunity to attack, either. B will still have to hammer to rejoin the peloton. If he's the team leader or in contention for the GC, one of the team domestiques will pull him back to the peloton.

There's a similar agreement regarding attacking in the feed zone. These guys ride elbow to elbow nearly every day for 3 weeks in the TdF, to say nothing of all the other races they compete in. I think what drives these gentlemens agreements is the fact that everyone is subject to crashes, everyone has to take a nature break at times, everyone has to eat. They're providing a courtesy that they expect in return, when they need it.

Originally posted by BikerDawg
Guess I'm just not a gentleman!! ;) LOL

Michelle

:roflmao:

Attacking while someone is stopping to pee is what started the Lance vs Robbie McEwen fracas last year. Lance accused Robbie of attacking while some riders where tacking a "break". Robbie later said that he didn't realise a few riders had stopped as they were at the back of the peleton and he was up the front, so he how was he to know. He apologised for attacking, but the argument between him and Lance was already public by this stage.

So attacking while riders take a break is tres uncool.

While I'm at. Attacking after sitting on someone's wheel for 5km/3miles and not doing ANY turns is also uncool.

CHEERS.

Mark

Hi everyone... I'm Spanish and see that you american people are very interested on road cycling, due to, for sure, the fact there has been great american racers in the past years -Greg Lemond, Andy Hampsten, who won the Giro d'Italia- ...and now that great champion who is Armstrong...

Here in Europe we all are accustomed since years to watch every evening the stage and every body consider TdF one of the best TV shows for the summer... but I'm curious about if there in the US you can view TdF stages live in TV (obviously early in the morning) or just short reports on Sport dedicated channels...? How?

Cheers :)

ps: ummmmh... I'm afraid this year Armstrong will reach the record of 5 consecutive TdF currently owned by Indurain.... :(

I think that's why the Tour is so fascinating, As well as being a race, tactics are important and gentlemanly behaviour too.

If you saw one of the riders crash in the breakaway earlier this week when he hit a camera, you'll have noted his partner (opposing team ) in the breakaway waited to let him catch. part of that was 2 work better than 1 but also the European cycle fans would not like him taking advantage of anothers misfortune.

There are loads of traditions. it's common for someone who has a birthday to be allowed to ride ahead into his home town if the race passes to be first there, to have photo's with his family etc.

team cars from other teams will assist other riders with mechanical problems to get back to the peloton and there have been instances in the past of other riders giving up wheels to contenders.

Also, the political wrangling between teams to control stages is great.

Think of it as chess at 40mph!

Hey there Palmix, actually we are quite lucky here in the states, if you subscribe to a cable channel called OLN, if you have there here, you can watch the final 2 hours of each day's stage of the Tdf, then that same channel rebrodcasts that at various time during the rest of the day...Phill Ligget and Paul Sherwin are the commentators, they are great!!..Oln came on about 3 years ago I think and most of us here just love the cycling coverage that they provide of the racing over there in europe...That same channel also covers the Giro and the Vuelta, its great!!


Benjamin

You know BikerDawg, something else just dawned on me here as I'm reading the live updates on cyclingnews about the stage...You might if you have time, want to check in and this goes for anybody else out there who wants to learn more about what's going on inside the TDF race and each days stage, log onto cyclingnews.com and go to the live race updates..They are pretty good there, because they tell you what's going on, and I just read some commentary that they put on it, explaining some of the tacticts going on..You can learn a lot from those, maybe that along with OLN and asking people and just getting exposed to these races, will help you and us understand what's all going on.....The live updates on cyclingnews, you have to scroll down just a tad, and it's on the left hand side.....If you're ok with reading about what happens during the day, and then watching it later and knowing what goes on on the TV, then you can learn from those updates..But if you're like some of my riding buddies, they won't follow the live updates on the net, cause they want to find out on the TV and not know in advance..It's all how you want to approach it..But check that out, maybe that'll help also..

Benjamin

Thanks to everyone for explaining the "gentleman's agreement." It's starting to sink in through my brainwashed American skull. ;)

And, caadman, thanks for the suggestion. I usually watch live in the morning, so updates don't bother me. I'll go check it out!! :D

No problem BikerDawg, the day I found that out, I was really excited, because I ride in the evenings after work, and I can't always get to watch the OLN after the ride, so it's good to know befor I go to bed..

Enjoy and I hope it gives you good info..

Benjamin