Yes I have read the threads on the subject but I still just can't decide. Must be how my wife feels when looking in her closet to pick what shoes to wear. Powertap wheel or Mavic ES........ I would like to use the power info both for what I can learn after the fact and to pace myself incase I get into a break or have to bridge a gap but I really do not want to lug around the extra weight of my PT/DT swiss wheel. I realize the ES is not a light weight wheel but it sure feels snappier and quicker than my Powertap wheel. Oh what to do....what to do.....

For me the decision is easy. If I get to the point where I honestly believe the weight/performance/whatever of the PowerTap wheel is *THE THING* holding me back (from a win, podium spot, whatever), then I will put on my "race" wheel instead. So far, I'm not even close to that happening. I think the race data is more useful than the slight benefit a race wheel might bring me.

I've found myself racing better with no powertap on board. I know there'll be a lot of opinions to the contrary, but I've kinda found that the powertap is great for training and kind of a distraction come race day.

I put the PT watts display on max watts, and ignore it. Now I have two PT's so I'll always race with one. Weight is not holding me back.

Strange as it is, unless the powertap is completely off the bike, I still start playing mind games in the race. It's very weird, but what can I say--it's my little neurosis.

Unless I'm TT'ing, I barely look at mine. What does it matter what it says? You keep up with the pack, and when you think it's time to go, you go.

The post-mortem data, though, is top notch.

My numbers have generally always been higher in training than in racing.

My bike *is* faster with Alta Races on front/rear than with the DT RR 1.1 PT rim on the rear, and an Alta Race up front.

Ergo, if I have any priority placed on winning the race - I'm using my faster wheels. If I want to see data, I can collect it during the week.

My race wheels are AC-420's and my PT is laced to an AC-420 rim. Yet . . . I still don't race with it. Call it a mental thing, but I prefer the lower weight than the data I would get from racing it. Things have worked so far so I'm not changing a thing.

you could always look at it from the other way around: if you race and think it's holding you back, you may kick yourself for racing with it. race without and leave no question.

Race data is important if you want to find weaknesses. And it doesn't hurt to be able to pace yourself if you are in a breakaway.

I raced with my PT (and now race with my Ergomo) so that I can better tailor my training to my race efforts.

I raced with my PT (and now race with my Ergomo) so that I can better tailor my training to my race efforts.

Things I've discovered in training:

-I need more aerobic base to recover quickly from hard efforts
-My 1-minute power and 5-second power are a little low
-I need to do more VO2Max work

Things I've discovered from my race data:

-I need more aerobic base to recover quickly from hard efforts
-My 1-minute power and 5-second power are a little low
-I need to do more VO2Max work

Think I will leave the PT off the bike for the RR and the Crit and just use it for the TT. Thanks for all your input guys....

I get a little too amped up during a race so it works as a great tool to tell me to back it off a little if I 'm pulling or in a break(not that this happens much)

edit* and with the srm the weight is always there so might as well.

I know your decision is made, but I feel like contributing... I leave my SRM on (either) bike 100% of the time. The data from the racing is way more important than anything I can get from training.

The data from the racing is way more important than anything I can get from training.

I'm really not trying to be a smartass here--I want to learn. What have you gotten from your race data that was 1. that important, and 2. you wouldn't have been able to figure out anyway?

I know your decision is made, but I feel like contributing .

Oh I change my mind often........It won't be set in stone till I am on the start line...LoL

pt all the time for me. i dont look at it during a race and even when i happen to glance at it i am not distracted by what i see.

I'm really not trying to be a smartass here--I want to learn. What have you gotten from your race data that was 1. that important, and 2. you wouldn't have been able to figure out anyway?

Indeed...I'd be interested as well.

As I've said several times before I almost never produce power bests in mass start races. I know what works, what doesn't, and what hurts in races though, so I can identify weaknesses and strengths through percieved exertion. Heck, I've even raced with it enough to know what I should input for a TSS value to keep my PMC in line with reality.

At the end of the day, it's where I finished, not what numbers I put out that I care about.

I'm really not trying to be a smartass here--I want to learn. What have you gotten from your race data that was 1. that important, and 2. you wouldn't have been able to figure out anyway?

for me i have learned about the course from the pt and how to approach it next time.

ive also been able to better taylor my training to my race performance.

the most important factor for me is being able to more accurately relive the race afterwards which helps me understand how and why things happened.

I'm really not trying to be a smartass here--I want to learn. What have you gotten from your race data that was 1. that important, and 2. you wouldn't have been able to figure out anyway?

How much power the yo-yo-ing saps out of you at different locations in the peloton.

We all know that effect is there... I was a little surprised by the magnitude.

I'm really not trying to be a smartass here--I want to learn. What have you gotten from your race data that was 1. that important, and 2. you wouldn't have been able to figure out anyway?

I have been surprised at the discrepancy between my perception of various parts of races versus what the data were actually showing (in a post-race analysis -- I don't find it difficult to ignore the display during the race, 'cause I'm focusing on the race). That kind of info is extremely useful for the mental game. Were I to rely on my perception alone I would come to different conclusions about what I need to work on. I consider that somewhat important.

I have been surprised at the discrepancy between my perception of various parts of races versus what the data were actually showing (in a post-race analysis -- I don't find it difficult to ignore the display during the race, 'cause I'm focusing on the race). That kind of info is extremely useful for the mental game. Were I to rely on my perception alone I would come to different conclusions about what I need to work on. I consider that somewhat important.


+1. I'm surprised by how easy some quick, ten second efforts feel - but when I look at the data it's pretty clear I burned a match.

I really like have the race data to share with my coach. I think it helps make the post mortums amuch more valuable, and not just dependent on my subjective impressions.

On the other hand, my race wheels, Zipp 303 tubulars, just feel so good handling and accelerating compared to the PT wheel (Zipp 404 clincher) that I hate not to use them. I'm sure a good portion of it is subjective, if not outright placebo.However if it makes you feel confident, that's a benefit in its own right.

OP, For A races use your Mavic ES, for B and C races use the PT. Problem solved... carry on. ;)

I haven't ever looked at wattage during a race (TTs excluded), but I like having the record of what happened. I think it has helped me race smarter--but I can't prove that.

--Steve

I'm really not trying to be a smartass here--I want to learn. What have you gotten from your race data that was 1. that important, and 2. you wouldn't have been able to figure out anyway?

My coach assigns workouts by wattage targets (generally), which have generally been increasing. Every race I do, though, is more of a "real" maximal test -- I find out what I can really do under pressure, then we can increase the training load. Something to that effect.

I guess the point of this is.... I'm really good about staying dead on my pacing during TT's, and use the SRM for that. I don't really use it so much in RR's or Crits, but I also don't ever really look at it then. Because of that, there's no reason to NOT put it on the bike. The weight penalty is almost nothing (and i'd be using the cranks anyways), and it's very useful data for the above posted reason.

My coach assigns workouts by wattage targets (generally), which have generally been increasing. Every race I do, though, is more of a "real" maximal test -- I find out what I can really do under pressure, then we can increase the training load. Something to that effect.

I guess I'm in a different boat. I've been able to hit higher numbers in training because the training rides are more targeted. It makes sense that my 5-second power will be higher in a sprint workout than it will be at the end of a mass start race.

That's true I suppose, but all of my best sprints have been in races.

The stuff i'm better at (5 min and longer efforts...i'm mostly a TT rider if you haven't figured that out) is stuff that i'm going to get better measurements out of races.

Man............ I'm mad, at least you all have the opportunity to worry about what you do or do not do or have or don't have on your bikes during a race. I would kill for an active racing scene near me. All races around me are on average 3-4 hours away.

Uh.... Austin is 3 hours from Dallas, 3 hours from Houston, and there aren't a whole lot of races in Austin.

Just do it.

No car, No licesne= parents would need to drive= no go

Gotcha :)

Alternatively, you could take my route and get a job, then buy your own car, your own college education, and your own bike. Not quite as much fun, but you end up with more schwag in the end.

True, maybe when I'm old enough to have my own car and drivers license.

DrPete- By looking at the numbers after it allows me to see how much energy is used riding near the front and out of the wind or near the front and still being exposed(like outside line and cross wind). I though they felt like the same amount of effort but were very different.

A couple of other ideas for using race data, as put forth by Coggan and Allen (haven't been able to use these yet, but for the sake of edification)

- determine when you are using too much energy (pedaling when you should have been sitting in)

- used energy unnecessarily in parts of the race that were not decisive (made a tactical error but didn't realize it)



They also say that "often your best data will come from races, as you always go harder in races than in routine training", which I think is an important point. If you are not using your power meter during a race, you do not know whether you are performing at your potential. True, the race result is the only thing that really matters, and if you're winning races while still performing below your potential, then hats off to you. But if you are not winning/not upgrading, and not performing at your potential during races, something's wrong.

Dr. Pete, without seeing your data, I can tell you this - you have already learned quite valuable info - you are wasting too much energy in races. You are able to hit higher numbers in training because you are fresh, but towards the end of a workout, your sprint numbers will drop. How much lower are your sprint numbers in a race? If they are a lot lower, perhaps you need to either work on conserving energy in a race, or tiring yourself out more in training. Regardless, having the obvious difference IS important if you use it to make yourself better.

What does power tell me in a race? Well, during the race it tells me how not to blow up in a paceline (because I know what I cannot reasonably do from training). It also tells me when I am fried (for instance, dehydrated, need a gu or something when 280 watts feels like 450).

In hindsight I can compare what my RPE was (I was dying in the break but my norm power was 320 watts...Need to work on that) or I can see that though I thought I was conserving enerfy, the fact was, I was going too hard (need to back off even MORE next time). Also, many times, it tells me the important stuff. What can I expect to do at the end of a race? Sure I can pop off 700 + watts for a minute if I am fresh in a workout, but the fact is, at the end of 2 hours of racing, a 570 watt effort is going to be about it. If I know that I can do that for a minute and others look lik ethey are suffering at 350 watts, I know I can solo break away about a minute out for the easy victory.

Finally, in examining the file, I know how stupid I was. How many matches did I burn unnecessarily? How many attacks was I capable of before the attack power just was not there? Knowing this for me helps me plan future races. I am sorry, but a five pound penalty I would gladly take for that kind of info.

Since most of my race scene is with a large portion of the same competitors (which I imagine is the truth for a lot of us), I also know what I had to do to "stick with them" on such and such climb, or keep the paceline, stay away, or break away.

My best example:
I'm able to look at my race data from my May 20th 1st placing and see what we were climbing at for ~6 min of climbing for 9 laps/ How did the pace change from lap to lap (mid laps way low @ 300-305 for 6 minutes, but last lap was 370 for 5 1/2 minutes). Then how much it took to break away and then stay away on the last lap. (20 sec @ 600 to bridge, 35 sec @ 490 to drop the bridged rider, and 327 for 5 min to stay away, a paltry amount really but mostly descending hairpin turns to an uphill finish).

I may/may not do another race on this course at the end of September. I'll be pretty happy to have this data if I do though because come end of August I'll be on the course training for the race and be able to replicate the general course requirements accurately.

Really, having the power meter on is all about post-race analysis. I'm excited to have a second wheelset that is slightly lighter now that mentally, weight really isn't an issue. It's not some uber-light wheelset, but it's lighter than what I had so the placebo effect will work its magic.

If you're losing races by less than a bike throw, maybe weight/aerodynamics is an issue. I've yet to be in to win/lose based on that distance so I know weight (on the bike) is not my problem (something about a 5 second sprint close to that of a sloth might be that problem). And I can just about piss away more weight than the difference in a set of wheels (or this time sweat it off by the end of the race).

I guess I'm in a different boat. I've been able to hit higher numbers in training because the training rides are more targeted. It makes sense that my 5-second power will be higher in a sprint workout than it will be at the end of a mass start race.

Now it's my turn to *NOT* be a smartass: Then perhaps you're doing your sprint workouts wrong?

If your mass start sprints are more gradual, or just longer, perhaps you should emulate that in training?

Just a thought.

DrPete- By looking at the numbers after it allows me to see how much energy is used riding near the front and out of the wind or near the front and still being exposed(like outside line and cross wind). I though they felt like the same amount of effort but were very different.

But once you've discovered that in a training race or on a group ride, is it necessary to re-learn this on race day?

Now it's my turn to *NOT* be a smartass: Then perhaps you're doing your sprint workouts wrong?

If your mass start sprints are more gradual, or just longer, perhaps you should emulate that in training?

Just a thought.

No, my mass start sprints are neither long enough nor explosive enough, and it has more to do with my endurance at/above LT than with my actual sprint power. I have a good sprint in me but I lack the anaerobic endurance to bring it to the end of a race. That's not something that I need to re-learn on race days either.

Funny that no one has talked about how this translates into team duties/race stages... you're lead TT, take every edge, so no PT. My slow skinny ass sometimes rides one though (aero-shielded). I'm 5 back, baby-birded and chugging anyway- the training potential makes me more of an asset than a few less seconds do.

On the other hand, I am not putting a damn thing extra on my bike when hills are on the plate, as I have the unfortunate responsibilty of towing the climbs... and our TT specialist might be more of an asset if he's getting the maximum future benefits from the climbs with a PT rather than being negligibly quicker up the mountain.

For college, where specialty duties are a little more loosely orchestrated, and every race should be looked at as a learning experience anyway, I tend to agree with UT Dude... if you're not distracted by it, it's a good way to get realer numbers than training can afford...

I for one find a little "extra" on race day that isn't normally there during training sessions- it's the next step of that potential which must be trained for.

This has actually been helpful/educational. I still don't think I'll use the PT for my higher-priority races, but I might keep it on a bit more often.

I'll freely admit that really going over my files with a fine-toothed comb is a big shortcoming with my use of the PT so far, as I've already mentioned. So I guess as I become more savvy I'll have an excuse to pick up a PT SL/404 tubular wheel. :)

as I become more savvy I'll have an excuse to pick up a PT SL/404 tubular wheel.

Now you're talkin' ;)

Hahaha.... Option 2: Sell your old PT wheel, and pick up an SRM on eBay or Slowtwitch for like... $1400.

Funny thing....I just held my Mavic ES wheel fully dressed with cassette and tire and my PT wheel also fully dressed and I had a hard time feeling a weight difference. The PT is back on the bike for this weekend's Omnium. Thanks for all the GREAT replies guys.

Funny thing....I just held my Mavic ES wheel fully dressed with cassette and tire and my PT wheel also fully dressed and I had a hard time feeling a weight difference. The PT is back on the bike for this weekend's Omnium. Thanks for all the GREAT replies guys.

I had a similar thing when I still had my Fulcrums. Just buy some Zipps and you'll feel a big difference. ;)

please do not use your PT to pace yourself in breakaways or TTs. I choke every time someone says something like this. Watching power fluctuate is such a distraction from what you should be concentratin on: going hard.

please do not use your PT to pace yourself in breakaways or TTs. I choke every time someone says something like this. Watching power fluctuate is such a distraction from what you should be concentratin on: going hard.

I don't think anybody's talking about watching real-time data (at least I really hope they aren't).

They just want to have a log of their race performance to break down later and study for training.