Do you run stoplights?

[pirate golf]

I stop at all reds, all of the time. The only stop signs I run are in my neighborhood when there is no traffic. I was almost hit by a cyclist while driving my girlfriend's car a few days ago. I was about to make a right turn at an intersection (the light was red when I got to the intersection, but immediately turned green as I stopped) and a damn cyclist ran a red on the street I was turning on to. I almost pulled out in front of his dumb ass.

The way I see it, if a cyclist gets nailed while running a light, he damn well deserved it... just like any idiot car driver.

[JonathanGennick]

There are no stop lights in my county, so I don't have to stop for any :D .

Just to be pedantically correct, we do have a couple of those always-blinking lights, the ones that serve as highly visible stop signs and caution lights. I would stop for those if I ever got out to where they are. They are not where I generally ride.

In the local "big city", I stop for lights.

[chipcom]

Yes Saint chipcom I do understand the concept of law and its importance to a functional civilized society. I also know that when I am driving to work at 3:30 in the morning and there are no other cars for miles, that it's not going to make any difference whether or not I give my turn signal.

I live by the Golden Rule and it has served me well for a long time.

What does your turn signal on an empty road have to do with stopping for a light? You can throw out straw men all you like, but other than situations where the light simply will not change, you have yet to provide any valid justification for running a red...other than your own convenience, impatience or lack of respect for the law. Stop for the lights...don't be a JAB.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

... provide any valid justification for running a red...other than your own convenience, impatience or lack of respect for the law.
Chipcom my comrade, rephrase that list to "convenience, impatience, and lack of respect for anal-like compliance with (or enforcement) of the letter of the law" and I'd say you hit the Trifecta.

[Sledbikes]

i stop at them but if theres no cars coming from either way ill go

[Banzai]

I used to never run stoplights. However, I'm about to find myself agreeing with ILTB (mark this on my calendar) for various reasons.

For starters, all the stoplights on my new commute are car activated, and they are all against me. At 0500 with no cars in sight if my visibility is good, I hardly even slow...I simply blitz through, since I've discovered that the light will NEVER change for me.

When there are cars, if one isn't going the same direction as me, I'll still never get a green light. The opposite direction traffic will, but not me. So...I'll roll the red when the other guy gets a green.

I typically roll stopsigns, and only come to a complete stop when another car is there. If the other car can stop, and then go, while I slow roll without actually completely stopping and putting a foot down, I'll try to do that. Foot down is usually applicable with multiple cars at a 4 way.

Anyhow...yes, I now run red lights, and this change was brought on by a variety of technical reasons. This then "slippery-sloped" into attacking stop signs differently.

[Udman Pivnik]

I just read the first few posts and it appears most of the posters stop for red lights. I commend that. You seem to be the minority. I live in Northern Virginia and over the past 5 years I have seen maybe 3 or 4 cyclists stop for red lights. In five years of observing hundreds of cyclists.

You probally know this, but from the Virginia Division of Motor Vehicles web site:

"Bikes are vehicles, too. In the eyes of the law, bicyclists have the same rights-of-way as drivers of motor vehicles and must obey the same traffic rules and regulations. "

Then, when I'm driving and a cyclist runs a red light right infornt of me, and I honk at them, sometimes they flip me off. If I was not as easy going as I am, I would follow the cyclist and then run them right off the road for behaving that way.

Most cyclists are giving you guys a bad reputation.

I'm not a cyclist, and I have to say I would rather see bicycles banned from the roadway, or either have to be registered with license tags (big enough to be read) so cyclists can be held accountable for their actions. Its bad enough getting stuck behind one riding on the road, blocking traffic, and then to see cyclists blatanty disregard the law, is despicable.

The other unsafe practice I observe many times is cyclists weaving in and out of traffic when it is backed up. There again, not obeying the laws.

JP

[I-Like-To-Bike]

I just read the first few posts and it appears most of the posters stop for red lights. I commend that. You seem to be the minority. I live in Northern Virginia and over the past 5 years I have seen maybe 3 or 4 cyclists stop for red lights. In five years of observing hundreds of cyclists.

You probally know this, but from the Virginia Division of Motor Vehicles web site:

"Bikes are vehicles, too. In the eyes of the law, bicyclists have the same rights-of-way as drivers of motor vehicles and must obey the same traffic rules and regulations. "

Then, when I'm driving and a cyclist runs a red light right infornt of me, and I honk at them, sometimes they flip me off. If I was not as easy going as I am, I would follow the cyclist and then run them right off the road for behaving that way.

Most cyclists are giving you guys a bad reputation.

I'm not a cyclist, and I have to say I would rather see bicycles banned from the roadway, or either have to be registered with license tags (big enough to be read) so cyclists can be held accountable for their actions. Its bad enough getting stuck behind one riding on the road, blocking traffic, and then to see cyclists blatanty disregard the law, is despicable.

The other unsafe practice I observe many times is cyclists weaving in and out of traffic when it is backed up. There again, not obeying the laws.

JP
C'mon, which BF poster created this sock puppet? Fess up!

[Markok765]

C'mon, which BF poster created this sock puppet? Fess up!
LOL NO U ARE LIKE A SOCK PUPPET BY CHANCE. Sorry for the caps.

[wheel]

If I want to go through the red light, I will make a right turn and then do a uturn and another right turn.

Traffic conditions plays a major role and time of day.

For the most part I can just time it right or take a breather.

Here is an example of same rules BS.

AL and Rand. knows this one.
@ US 60 and Priest going southbound on Priest.

There is an off ramp for westbound US HWY 60 traffic, yet no on ramp. Which creates a traffic signaled intersection for Priest.
So think a T intersection.
There is a bike lane south bound on Priest which has a white stripe all the way through the intersection. Continous bike lane.
There is a cross walk with very few if any peds that use this due to location and nothing around it.
Now why do I need to stop at the light. For what a cyclist comming down the off ramp who is going to merge into my lane?

Yes I know safety because the auto can't control the vehicle and use ther auto lane, but come on am I going to stop and wait for what a sun tan?

[qmsdc15]

I stop or slow way down, make sure the coast is clear, then go. Much like we legally do when we "right turn on red after stop."

Me too.

[martianone]

stop light = STOP
stop sign = yield

[AEO]

Rolling stop through stop signs in residential areas and stop and practice track stands at red lights.
I did a rolling stop at the long side of a T intersection when I had red. Cop car pulled up in the opposite direction, I looked at him, he looked at me. I figured I was screwed, but I didn't get a ticket or even a warning. So now I just plain don't run reds on any vehicle.

I once saw a guy blast through a red with his bike + child trailer. He didn't even look both ways or slow down, nope, just right through. What I saw, and this guy didn't, was that a car going around 30km/h came within 1m of his trailer. No idea if he had a child in the trailer. But I've never seen someone this ignorant about his safety.

[San Rensho]

A challenge to the stop light absolutists, who say cyclists must make a full stop at all stop lights. Explain to me why is it wrong to run a stop light in a situation where doing so, you do not interfere with any traffic, car, bicycle or pedestrian in any way?

I'll dispose of two of the easier arguments.

Argument 1-You are breaking the law.

Running a stop light is not morally wrong in and of itself. Laws against running stop lights are not like laws against burning puppies alive. Laws against running stop lights are more like laws regulating what color you can paint your house. There is no moral component to it.

The purpose of traffic laws is that so there will be predictability and order in TRAFFIC, that means other cars, bikes, peds. If your actions do not affect others in any way, then you are not affecting predictability in traffic and the law simply has no meaning to what you are doing.

Argument 2. Cyclists that run red lights give cyclists a bad image, causing driver hatred of cyclists.

I have a little secret for those who espouse this argument. Car drivers hate us! Period. How many times have you (or have you read about here) been screamed at by a car driver "Get the f@ck off the road!" or "Get the f@ck on the sidewalk" when you were riding on the street, going close to the speed limit and obeying all the rules of the road. Many drivers just hate us and slavishly stopping at every light will not engender any good will from these drivers.

Ok-flame away!

[PaulH]

Argument 2. Cyclists that run red lights give cyclists a bad image, causing driver hatred of cyclists.

I have a little secret for those who espouse this argument. Car drivers hate us! Period. How many times have you (or have you read about here) been screamed at by a car driver "Get the f@ck off the road!" or "Get the f@ck on the sidewalk" when you were riding on the street, going close to the speed limit and obeying all the rules of the road. Many drivers just hate us and slavishly stopping at every light will not engender any good will from these drivers.

Before I was a cyclist, I could have cared less about cyclists running stioplights. I just figured they were on crack or something. How else could a normal person manage to overcome his or her inhibitions regarding running a traffic light? However, when you are in a car, they are not a threat -- just something to avoid.

After I started riding my bike to work every day, year round, my view of them changed. They became a potential threat. I've had to slow or turn to avoid rogue cyclists more times than I have rogue motorists. That's when I started to hate those red light people. If I hadn't started riding so much, I would have continued being indifferent to them.

However, I'm sneakily impressed that they are so good at deviating from societal norms and overcoming lifelong training and conditioning.

Paul

[Nycycle]

I use em to stop and huff and puff, they can be great distances apart where I ride.

[AdamJaz]

I don't know if this has been mentioned thus far in the discussion, but I blow the T-intersection stoplights all the time. My dad told me it's still illegal, but it doesn't make sense to me, there's no one coming on the right, because that is desert (I'm in AZ), and people from the left are just turning. The bike lane is fine, I don't even slow.

[Jeronimo_]

I run stoplights all of the time.

[SuperStroke]

Decrease speed, look both ways, if clear continue. Here in Brooklyn, stopping for reds with no cars coming is a suspicious activity, you may be mistaken for a terrorist utilising a "cyclist" ploy.

[JohnBrooking]

Like others, I generally go through a red only if I'm at a light with a sensor that is not sensing me, and it's safe. If turning right at the front of the line, I usually stop before taking the right on red, which is legal unless otherwise marked, although I suppose I sometimes do a rolling stop if the sight lines are good.

I also think it's important to set a good example to motorists. I don't agree with San Rensho's response to his "Argument 2". It's not that black and white. I think only a tiny minority of motorists are so hardened against cyclists that a good example will make no difference to them. Most I think are still influenceable, so it's important to do that.

I have a confession to make, though. There's one intersection on my route (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=South+Portland,+ME&ie=UTF8&ll=43.635827,-70.329891&spn=0.001355,0.002511&t=k&z=19&om=1) where the light cycle gives opposing left-turners a green arrow to themselves before giving everyone else the green. I'm going straight, and there is no right-turn only lane, so I'm waiting in the leftish half of the right-most lane. This is my regular route, so I know that every single time, after the green arrow is done, the green is given for the rest of us. So lately, if I am at the front during the green left arrow phase of the cycle, and there are no more opposing left turners, I sometimes anticipate the general green and go through while the general light is still red. I know it's about to change to green, and I can there are no more left turners, and maybe I've been influenced by those who say it's good to get out in front of the cars. This is especially supportable because I'm in the leftish half of the right lane (again, not a RTOL) so that right-turners can get by me, but it's nice to have a start on moving back over to the right before the cars start moving. And I rationalize the fact of not setting a good example by the fact that I have waited up until that point, and everyone in line behind me saw me waiting, so hopefully they'll cut me some slack on it. But I still feel a little guilty anyway... :o

[chipcom]

Chipcom my comrade, rephrase that list to "convenience, impatience, and lack of respect for anal-like compliance with (or enforcement) of the letter of the law" and I'd say you hit the Trifecta.

I'd rephrase it as lack of at least giving the perception that one obeys the law. Everybody bends em and even breaks em, but once it gets 'overt' stuff goes to hell in a handbasket. I think it's called anarchy.

[chipcom]

Running a stop light is not morally wrong in and of itself. Laws against running stop lights are not like laws against burning puppies alive. Laws against running stop lights are more like laws regulating what color you can paint your house. There is no moral component to it.

That's where you and I have always disagreed. The moral component is the perception of respect for the law. A stop sign is kinda 'self serve' - you stop, or in our case slow down, and proceed if the coast is clear. A light isn't self-serve - it means you stop until the signal allows you to proceed, rather than proceeding when the coast is clear. If the signal is broken (won't activate for the bike), cool, treat it as a sign.

My Dad was a cop...he ran lights all the time, especially when coming home in the wee hours of the morning. One morning, he didn't notice a ped who ran out into the intersection, swerved to avoid the ped and totaled his car. His injuries forced him to retire with disablity. This is where I turn the usual pro-helmet arguments right back at you...what does it hurt to stop? :p ;)

[2slo2run]

I also will only run one when I need to cross and the light refuses to trip.
This happens at one light almost daily right outside my work, if no cars come sit next to me it would never trip so I tend to run that after i make a full stop for a few seconds.

I slow down and stop signs, and for those of you who have said "much as we do in our cars"...
tsk tsk, i am more obedient to the rules of the road in my car than I am on my bike!!!

[Bekologist]

because of my bicycling, i've sometimes run red lights in my car- after seeing its clear.

but on my bike, I'm usually stopping for them. almost always.

[Daily Commute]

I always stop unless 1) it's a light that I might not be able to trigger on my bicycle and there are no cars around to trigger it, or 2) it's before 6am and absolutely no one's around. Even in those cases, I treat the intersections with extreme caution.

If you run a red light and get creamed (or a ticket), it's all on you. No whining allowed.

[Sandwarrior]

Argument 1-You are breaking the law.

Running a stop light is not morally wrong in and of itself.

Every time I tried to respond to your first argument I got really angry and wrote some really nasty stuff. Then I deleted it all and started over, again, and again, and again.

So I'll leave it at this, from my point of view, Yes it is MORALLY wrong to run a stoplight. Your argument is false and shows that you are morally bankrupt.

[ivegotabike]

i stop at red lights, but ones with weight sensors only get about 30 seconds before i decide its hopeless and start looking for a gap in the traffic.

[donnamb]

I've never "run" a red on my bike. That is to say, I have always come to a complete stop first. I've never had a sensor coil at a signal here in Portland not register me, but there is a certain set of conditions that would make me decide to proceed through the red. I am riding alone, it's always at night, dark outside, often in the wee hours, and I'm either coming home from working late (from downtown) or coming home from some other event like a party, possibly even the grocery store. The cars all around me are full of people who have either been drinking or are just people looking for trouble. Often they are both. I do not sit at a stoplight in the dark and wait to be harassed or worse. I prefer to keep myself a moving target instead of a sitting target when the drunks and disorderlies are out and about. Once I'm in "my" neighborhood where the likelihood of encountering someone who is going to decide to be unpleasant to be is very, very low, I do stop and wait. After all, the signal coil always figures out that I'm there.

[Sandwarrior]

Have you ever broken any law?

Do you see "Jesus" in my name anywhere? Yes I have broken the LAW both intentionally and unintentionally. The difference is that I know it is morally wrong to do so. The OP obviously doesn't

[San Rensho]

Every time I tried to respond to your first argument I got really angry and wrote some really nasty stuff. Then I deleted it all and started over, again, and again, and again.

So I'll leave it at this, from my point of view, Yes it is MORALLY wrong to run a stoplight. Your argument is false and shows that you are morally bankrupt.


Aha! I got a live one!

So how is running a stop light when you are affecting nobody else, not interfering with thier right of way, morally wrong, other than your saying so.

The fabric of society will not disintegrate because of running red lights. If violating traffic laws were the cause of the downfall of moral society then we would all be living in hell, because the vast majority of car drivers do not make complete, full stops at every stop sign, and last time I checked, I couldn't find Bealzebub.

Hey, write the nasty stuff, I can take it.

[rando]

wow, this thread has taken a fun turn...

[Daily Commute]

Pete Fagerlin and Sandwarrior, we all get your point. One of you thinks it's always morally wrong to violate the law (even if he admits to being imperfect). The other thinks it's OK to violate the law on a no-harm/no foul basis. We get it. You won't persuade each other, and the personal insults won't persuade anyone else.

Edited to correctly spell "Fagerlin."

[bentstrider]

I pull CA stops at most of my lights when no one else is around.
Most of the lights have these hokey sensor systems that seem to work on demand.
Sometimes I'll set them off, others I'll be sitting at the intersection looking like a J@ck@$$.
That's when I open throttle and take off.

[Dchiefransom]

I don't run any stoplights unless I can't trigger them. If I had the money to pay the ticket, I'd be out buying a low end bike for around town right now.

[donnamb]

Pete Fagerlon(sic) and Sandwarrior, we all get your point. One of you thinks it is always morally wrong to violate the law (even if he admits to being imperfect), the other thinks it's OK to violate the law on a no-harm/no foul basis. We get it. You won't persuade each other, and the personal insults won't persuade anyone else.

If the interchange bothers you then don't click on the thread or skip the posts.

Simple, eh?
I've got an even simpler solution. Pete and Sandwarrior take their little morality debate elsewhere. No one here wants to hear about it.

[Blue Order]

It is technically illegal right?What do you mean "technically"?

[Blue Order]

150-300 pounds of bike and bicyclist are a minimum threat to the safety of automobiles at an intersection.What kind of threat are they to other cyclists? What kind of threat are they to pedestrians?**












** If you don't know, maybe you should ask the family of James Gould. (http://www.woj.com.au/2007/05/01/vic-hell-ride-crash-inevitable/)

[Blue Order]

I ignore all intersection control devices and only go when it is safe and when doing so, I do not interfere at all with other traffic.

So, when I approach an interesction and the light for me is red, I look, if there is no traffic, I proceed without stopping.

Likewise, when I approach an intersection and the light for me is green, but there is traffic, I will very carefully guage the traffic and make sure I position myself so that no left turning or right turning traffic can hit me, and slow down or stop to avoid getting myself in a dangerous situation.Do you ride your bike according to these rules as well?

[San Rensho]

Do you ride your bike according to these rules as well?


I was talking about what I do when I ride my bike. When I drive a car, I don't go through red lights if its clear.

[Blue Order]

I was talking about what I do when I ride my bike. When I drive a car, I don't go through red lights if its clear.:lol:

That's what I thought.

[Brian]

Pete, go ride your bike. Or go stir things up in P&R, where everyone likes to argue.

[Brian]

I have been riding my bike. Lots. In fact I just got back from a family MUP carving to shopping district vehicular cycling lane taking , sidewalk hopping to a pub ride (Russian River IPA is quite good).

A better suggestion would be to buy Donna a clue or two so she doesn't box herself into such silly positions.

Or you could just give us all a break. By the way, our local brew, Squatter's Full Suspension is rather nice when it's hovering just under 100 degrees.

[ghettocruiser]

What kind of threat are they to other cyclists? What kind of threat are they to pedestrians?**


Also a minimal threat. No, not a zero threat, but minimal.

Motor vehicles seem to be a larger threat to pedestrians, at least locally. Ask any of the 2,300 people struck and injured by cars a year here. Stats in your town may differ.

[chipcom]

Hey, write the nasty stuff, I can take it.

OK fine. YOU HAVE HAIRY LEGS! :eek:

[Blue Order]

Also a minimal threat. No, not a zero threat, but minimal.You're speaking statistically, which is irrelevant when a pedestrian is struck.

[RahTx]

I stop at lights (I don't mind a little trackstand practice or unclipping if necessary) but roll through stop signs if there are no cars that have the right-of-way, I don't go through at full speed, though. I basically ride as I drive (which includes taking the lane when I can), except when I drive I do come to a full stop at signs.

Although the other day I accidently went through a light on red - I'm new to road biking and I misjudged the light.

While I don't plan on making a habit of it, I know some lights in the area are controlled by sensors, so if I happen to be out at a time when there are no other cars around to trip the sensor, and it's obviously clear and safe to do so, I guess I wouldn't be above intentionally going through on the red. This hasn't happened yet, though...

Anyways, I figure being out there at all is enough of a calculated risk. Why add to that by disregarding traffic control?

Plus, I seem to have really bad luck in cars. I've been in 2 pretty significant accidents where cars involved were totaled (once driving and it was my fault, once as a passenger) and 4 minor fender-benders (once while driving and it wasn't my fault). All of these were "accidents" in the true sense of the word and were not the result of reckless driving or blatant disregard for the law. However, I almost always wear a helmet while on my bike and I always wear a seatbelt (and insist that passengers do the same) while in my car. Basically, I'm doing all I can to avoid my bad luck in cars carrying over to bikes ;)

Edit: Oops, I didn't read a couple pages of this...I don't really feel like chiming in on the morality issue. Did I accidentally rerail this thread? :p

[pmseattle]

I have 123 lights between my house and work ( I counted them one morning ). Due to the "traffic calming" scheme, in the morning almost all of them will be red for me. They will not change to green until a car approaches. At 5:30 AM there is almost no other traffic besides me. For an experiment, I sat at a few of the lights and measured the time it took for a car to arrive and change the light for me. Average time ( at 5:30 AM - 6:10 AM ) for a car to arrive = 4 minutes and 30 seconds. Multiply that by 123 lights and you get 9.2 hours of sitting at lights on my morning commute. Otherwise, my commute involves 40 minutes of riding time.

Needless to say, I treat every light as a stop sign.

[JohnBrooking]

Wow, pmseattle, that's an extreme case! Even if they all sensed you, you'd probably have to stop for the majority of them due to the timing issue! :( For you, maybe we can grant a special dispensation! :) (I'll be that's the most direct route, too, isn't it?)

[pmseattle]

Wow, pmseattle, that's an extreme case! Even if they all sensed you, you'd probably have to stop for the majority of them due to the timing issue! :( For you, maybe we can grant a special dispensation! :) (I'll be that's the most direct route, too, isn't it?)

After living in Seattle for so many years, I know almost every light in the city like an old friend:) . If I roll up to one that I know will sense bicycles, I approach slowly enough to give it time to switch. If I hear a car behind me I let the car pass and do the job for me.
In the afternoon, it's no problem since there is plenty of traffic going my way.

[Raiyn]

LOL NO U ARE LIKE A SOCK PUPPET BY CHANCE. Sorry for the caps.
No you aren't. If you were, you wouldn't have used them (or would have edited them out).