Tactics to use during critical mass

[nathank]

first off i have to say that the people on this forum seem to have completed accepted the media portrayal of CM and it's participants... as well as identifying the whole group by the radical few...

in that light i should condemn any of you who drive cars because so many motorists are irresponsible and drive drunk and kill people. why do YOU keep on driving? i mean you drive, the others kill people, so you must be one of them, huh?

CM is about a lot of things: but mostly
* fun
* riding a bike
* reminding people that cities and public space is for people, not cars
* advocating for safer places for PEOPLE and cyclists
...

I think that transportation bureaucracies throughout the US have seriously dropped the ball on bicycle safety issues and cyclists rights. Ask yourself--are they adequately educating motorists to safely share the road with cyclists or not? Are they providing adequate and safe facilities for cyclists or not (multi-use paths, bike lanes, shared lanes, bike parking, access to transit for bicyclists, connectivity of the bicycle infrastructure and safe access to commercial and other destinations)?

i think in manye ways this is right. there are some exceptions, but many advocacy groups have fallen to the "build a bike path by the lake" mentality and given up on really fighting for true cyclist's rights.

there are some exceptions like the Bicyclis Transportation Coalition (Portland) which i really recommend ANY portland cyclist joining. they do great advocacy work all through legal chanels and do great things for the community like teach bike safety courses, provide free legal advice for cyclists and sponsor bike to school programs...

but i agree that in both San Francisco and Portland the CM has really contributed to the successes that have been made. ok, maybe in small-town usa it just pissed of people, but in a place like Portland where people are ready to listen and think, CM can have a great influence. i must say i was a bike commuter for quite a few years and was never an advocate until i got invloved with CM and starting thinking about it. i then decided there were better ways than just CM (like the BTA and advocacy groups and i went to local government meetings and spoke and wrote letters), but i may have never done that had it not been for CM --- and i think many young people are like that and don't know where to start.

CM can be a great thing and has some great effects. yes, maybe some improvements can be made, but don't believe the whole media/auto establishment hype about it --- think about what they're saying and then you can decide if you want to participate or not. but please, a group of bicycles maybe blocking a little traffic is NOTHING compared to the disruption, danger, pollution and disregard for others that millions of motorists do every day as a part of their daily lives ---- it's called commuting and rush hour! who here has never been annoyed by rush hour traffic? ok, then how is CM so bad and evil?

[Chris L]

Originally posted by nathank
first off i have to say that the people on this forum seem to have completed accepted the media portrayal of CM and it's participants... as well as identifying the whole group by the radical few...


I haven't accepted the media portrayal at all. However, I am being realistic in how the general public at large will react to the media portrayal, and how politicians and council planners will react to the media portrayal. And I also take issue with your "motorists do their own disruption" point. I'm not saying they don't do it - I'm just asking how it is that the actions of somebody else affect whether a particular action by cyclists is right or wrong.

[nathank]

And I also take issue with your "motorists do their own disruption" point. I'm not saying they don't do it - I'm just asking how it is that the actions of somebody else affect whether a particular action by cyclists is right or wrong.

i've participated in CM and gotten virtually nothing but cheers and supportive honks from motorists and pedestrians... as well as a few curious people who asked for more info on why there was a party in the street.

i printed up flying to hand out to people with some info as well as signs so there was a message to the attention we were gathering.

so the media portrays it for sensationalism to sell more... so that means CM should stop? wouldn't it be better if more people got involved and we cleared up the false image in the media and got more people involved in cycling and more people thinking that maybe it is a waste to drive everywhere when cycling would be so much nicer...

of course maybe it's a lost cause, but maybe not. again, i hold a place like Portland as an example that all is not hopeless.

[DanFromDetroit]

Originally posted by Max
Actually there is the CM in the former USSR. I read the report about CM in Moscow. They were about 25 riders. They cycled in the city for a while. Nobody paid any attention to them.
...


This is pretty much the same reaction that Detroiter's have. In fact 25 riders would be considered a huge increase in popularity here. View the Detroit CM ride journal (http://www.criticalmassdetroit.org/journal.html)

Originally posted by Max
They decided to cycle to the Red Square. The bridge leading to the Red Square was cordoned by troops. There was the training for some parade on the Square. But when the officers saw the group of these cyclists, they thought it was some race, which they were not informed about, and gave them the way in.
...

This is very humorous, and also makes the point that, what really works is getting responsible cyclists on the road, both commuters and racers.

[Brennan]

Critical Mass is textbook Civil Disobedience, or mass non-violent action. Civil Disobedience has been a successful tactic in numerous causes in America and around the world.

The news of the day tells us that Congress just passed a bill to completely eliminate funding for bicycle access, despite years of efforts by cycling advocacy groups. It is obvious to me that the legal means are not working. As they say, desperate times call for desperate measures.

[Max]

All social groups have their holiday. I saw on TV even the parade of gay people in Berlin. It is called Love parade or something like this.

There were thousands of participants and even more spectators. It did not look like there could be a police riot against this parade. Maybe one or two hooligans were arrested, but in general there was the atmosphere of the holiday. Maybe "strange fruit" holiday, but still a holiday.

Why it can not be like this with the CM?

It looked like that Love parade blocks the traffic for hours in the city, because it moved with the speed of the turtle. How long can CM block the traffic? 5 - 10 minutes. Still the CM riders are chased by police.

Well, however, there could be no police action agains cyclists' ride in Germany. There are way too many cyclists there, besides Germans are very tolerant.

But there is the Rose Parade in Pasadena, CA, it blocks traffic all right. For hours. Still the police did not beat the Rose Parade.

[JRA]

Originally posted by nathank
first off i have to say that the people on this forum seem to have completed accepted the media portrayal of CM and it's participants...I don't think so. Personally, I don't accept the media portrayal of much of anything. By the same token, I don't accept reasoning that is quite clearly flawed simply because it is presented by a cyclist. And I don't accept the portrayal of events presented in clearly biased articles in favor of Critical Mass.

Certainly, there are many well-intentioned people in Critical Mass. But the concept behind the organization seems fundamentally flawed, and their tactics are quite clearly flawed.

I've got news. I'm a life-long cyclist and not an establihment type at all. I'm all for a little protest if it's well organized and has a purpose. Unfortunately, CM's tactics have no purpose. CM has not defined what it stands for, only what it's against, and most of that is irrelevant.
Originally posted by nathank
as well as identifying the whole group by the radical few...You are quite wrong about that. It is Critical Mass itself that has allowed itself to be defined by the radical few. CM prides itself on not being an orgainzation. Well, you get what you pay for.

CM has only itself to blame for being portrayed the way it has been.
Originally posted by nathank
CM is about a lot of things: but mostly
* fun
* riding a bike
* reminding people that cities and public space is for people, not cars
* advocating for safer places for PEOPLE and cyclistsCM also advocates breaking the law. To a certain extent Critical Mass prides itself on that, thereby losing any moral high ground it might otherwise have had.
Originally posted by Max
But there is the Rose Parade in Pasadena, CA, it blocks traffic all right. For hours. Still the police did not beat the Rose Parade. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the Rose Bowl Parade has a parade permit.

CM is too lame to be bothered with such things, not to mention the fact that some people in CM want confrontations with the police. As long as CM goes looking for trouble, then no responsible cyclist should support it.

(by the way, isn't the subject article of this thread all about looking for trouble? - you see, my low opinion of CM comes not from the mass media, but from stuff like that)

[SamDaBikinMan]

Critical mass is an exercise in moronic behavior that will do more harm than good folks.

You are not going to win friends by being stupid and acting like an ***** by annoying others.

[Dave Stohler]

Whenever I hear about there being a Critical Mass ride near me, I use this tactic: I stay the heck away from it!

[scarry]

See you Friday.
Justin Herman Plaza, SF. 6pm.

[Chris L]

Originally posted by nathank
so the media portrays it for sensationalism to sell more... so that means CM should stop? ...

Yes it does, it means we need to find another way of promoting cycling, something that the media can't sensationalise or manipulate.

Originally posted by nathank
wouldn't it be better if more people got involved and we cleared up the false image in the media and got more people involved in cycling and more people thinking that maybe it is a waste to drive everywhere when cycling would be so much nicer...

How likely do you think that is to actually happen?

[gonesh9]

Originally posted by Chris L
Yes it does, it means we need to find another way of promoting cycling, something that the media can't sensationalise or manipulate.



How likely do you think that is to actually happen?

I am with you, Chris, that the cycling community needs to find a more positive approach to this, but playing the devil's advocate here:

Watching the CM riders around here actually did help me to decide to lead a more bicycle oriented life..... At the time I respected that they made such a bold statement. Obviously they were passionate about cycling, and it did make me think. I think maybe they are unknowingly focusing on people like myself a year ago, who are easy to get the point across to.

That said, I think I would have made the choice sooner or later myself. I do agree that what they are doind is essentially pi$$ing off the average person, and giving cycling a bad name. However, they HAVE been putting a lot of effort into their cause, so we should give them credit for that. What we, the responsible cyclists, need to do is gather that much enthusiasm and power for our cause and turn this automobile culture upside down!

[nathank]

well i think i understand what most of you are saying in criticism of CM...

yes, there is unfortunately some negativity that comes with CM -- and yes it would be better if there were less. although _some_ shock-effect is necessary to get the attention that the movement needs to achieve its goals (i try to explain below)

but, ok here's the key:

say you are a cyclist who belives the infrastructure for cycling is lousy and the government is only making it worse (with YOUR tax dollars), you can do one of 3 things:
1) b$tch and complain about it and basically do nothing
2) get involved in an advocacy group to try and improve the most significant problems
3) make a statement like through CM and try and really CHANGE things

well, method one is relatively unlikely to have much effect -- basically you just hope someone sees you cycling and decides to try it or listens to your complaining (highly unlikely)

method 2 is working WITHIN the system which requires that you believe the system basically works but it just needs to be kicked in the right direction. this also includes people who would say there's really nothing wrong -- "i can cycle just fine as things are" - ok

method 3 is appropriate when you think the system is so screwed up that change through normal chanels is not going to have any effect. in this case, more radical methods are necessary because you are trying to effect MASSIVE fundamental change --- completely change people's attitudes and perspectives and motivate and inspire the PEOPLE so they demand a change. CM has the POTENTIAL to do this.

now if you are a method 2 camp person, you think method 3 is NEGATIVE because the radical stuff reflects badly on those trying to work within the system, which is what much of the criticism of CM here on this thread entails.

and if you are a method 3 kind of person you think method 2 people are wasting their time because the system's never going to change. so what if we get more bike lanes or a couple of dollars for a bike route sign? the SUVs are still going to be running people down in masse and we're still unnecessarily polluting the world and ruining our quality of life and pumping our tax dollars into all the subsidies and encouaring all the problems...

ok, i personally fall in between these 2 and i see the value in both --- plus i have devoted a fair amount of my time and passions to both types of advocacy/demonstration.

anyway, i guess i'm not trying to really convince anyone that one is better than the other, but (for those in the advocacy camp 2 since in think the CM supports more or less understand this?) think about it:: if you begin from the perspective that the current auto culture is inadequate for our soceity and the number of people killed and the pollution generated and then swept under the rug is unacceptable, then how is CM not something in the right direction? while in my opinion very valuable, going through advocacy and legal chanels to get more bike paths and better treatment under the law is not going to change America's love affair with the auto and our massive expenditure of public funds on auto infrastructure and the dominance of auto culture... CM _could_ possible achieve that -- maybe it won't, but the people involved are trying the best way they know how. it is a great dream and effort and i respect that! and in order to TRY and do that it has to reach the most people and make a bold statement --- and the best way to do that includes a little non-violent civil disobendence which if you look at history _HAS_ been an effective tool at effecting change and almost NO fundamental change in our society has come from within the system, but been brought on my external factors involving some civil disobedience that INSPIRED and MOTIVATED people to demand change.

now if you think the vision of CMers is wrong and you don't share the vision of safe cities where people can cycle and we as a society are less dependent on foreign oil and generate less pollution and cities are designed for people and bikes instead of cars, then well, ok, you're one of those Americans enjoying the fruits of the auto/oil industry at the expense of others and the environment, but ok, i understand at least WHY you don't like CM...

otherwise, you are probably a camp 2 advocacy work-through-legal-chanels kind of person... and think about it: is this method ever going to create fundamental change of our transportation system and end our dependence on autos and oil? probably not... now of course you probably don't think CM will achieve this either b/c you think it's never going to change b/c people are too lazy/stubborn/selfish/whatever --- ok, fair enough, but some people find that unacceptabe and want to work towards something better than the ugly auto culture of pollution, death and traffic misery we currently have.

so hopefully someone can find some value in all that i wrote...

lastly: i _do_ think CM has already had some major positive impacts for cycling that would have been very difficult to achieve through normal legal advocacy chanels. as i said in an earlier thread, seeing and experiencing CM first hand was what first got me motiviated to try and change things... and i think it is possible to limit the negativity of CM, and the potential benefits outweigh the negative press so i would ride again.

[Chris L]

Originally posted by nathank
say you are a cyclist who belives the infrastructure for cycling is lousy and the government is only making it worse (with YOUR tax dollars), you can do one of 3 things:
1) b$tch and complain about it and basically do nothing
2) get involved in an advocacy group to try and improve the most significant problems
3) make a statement like through CM and try and really CHANGE things

method 2 is working WITHIN the system which requires that you believe the system basically works but it just needs to be kicked in the right direction. this also includes people who would say there's really nothing wrong -- "i can cycle just fine as things are" - ok

It's all a question of numbers. Somehow I think if all the people who showed up at critical mass rides wrote just one letter a month to their local council about whatever cycling issue is on their mind, it might just make a difference. However, most people are more concerned with appearing to be "kewl, man!" than actually doing something.

Originally posted by nathank
method 3 is appropriate when you think the system is so screwed up that change through normal chanels is not going to have any effect. in this case, more radical methods are necessary because you are trying to effect MASSIVE fundamental change --- completely change people's attitudes and perspectives and motivate and inspire the PEOPLE so they demand a change. CM has the POTENTIAL to do this.

There comes a time when potential becomes just another excuse for failure. I believe CM has long passed this point. Again, how many things have actually been achieved by CM. How many politicians have actually changed their policies after witnessing it?

Originally posted by nathank
and if you are a method 3 kind of person you think method 2 people are wasting their time because the system's never going to change. so what if we get more bike lanes or a couple of dollars for a bike route sign? the SUVs are still going to be running people down in masse and we're still unnecessarily polluting the world and ruining our quality of life and pumping our tax dollars into all the subsidies and encouaring all the problems...


Which might mean something if method 3 was actually going to fix any of that. I'm still not convinced. Basically the media will just run another "cyclists hold up traffic" story with a couple of photos from CM, and call for us to be banned from some road or other. How is this fixing any of the problems you describe above?

Again, find a more positive message. Instead of saying "cycling is dangerous so more people should ride" (has there ever been a greater contradiction in terms?), why not focus on the relative safety of cycling (and statistically it has been shown to be safer than auto travel, even in the US)? Why not focus on saving a few dollars? Or saving a few minutes (or longer) being immune to traffic jams? In other words, let's learn something from the autos, let's promote ourselves better. Who knows, a few people might just decide to give it a try.

[nathank]

hey Chris i agree with you and all of your ideas are good

Somehow I think if all the people who showed up at critical mass rides wrote just one letter a month to their local council about whatever cycling issue is on their mind, it might just make a difference. However, most people are more concerned with appearing to be "kewl, man!" than actually doing something.
the point i was trying to make is these are the kind of people who DON'T do that. why? either they're young and never thought of it or too lazy or most likely they believe the system is broken, nobody will listen to them so it won't do any good ---- yes, apathy is the biggest political problem (in the US). the large majority of young people think their vote or view doesn't matter and things are too screwed up to fix so they don't try. well, for these people, CM is doing something, and i see that much more positively than a young kid who just says "oh, well i'll just go shopping and play nintendo and who cares"

as to your other complaint: i content that CM HAS and DOES have positive effects for cycling. now could it be better or improved? yes.

[scarry]

From Portland.

Monster Truck kill bike.

A critical mass participant was nearly run over by an aggressive motorist on Grand Ave. He escaped only at the expense of his beloved orange Peugeot, which fell victim to three-foot tires and an enlarged ego.
In a symbolic(and literal) victory of US aggression over European pleas for peace and progressive policy, a 1970's-era orange Peugeot road bike was run over by silver, king-cab, long-bed monster truck Chevrolet(license#ZEH364) at the intersection of Grand Avenue and SE Belmont as part of a pro-peace Critical Mass ride.
Several riders attempted to halt the driver in order to make the roads safer for cyclists and all other traffic, but the driver dismissed them as a "spineless debating club". More cyclists gathered in front of the vehicle as he inched his way forward with no regard for the 200+ riders with whom he shared the road.
"We must confront cyclists, pedestrians, and fuel-efficient cars with resolve," shouted the motorist from his perch ten feet above the roadway. "By backing down, we only play into the hands of cyclo-terrorists, maniacal bus riders, and un-patriotic drivers of Japanese hybrids. Evil shall not triumph."
Cyclists tried to reason with the motorist, but the diplomatic voices were drowned out by the revving of his ten-cylinder diesel engine. With a final push on the gas pedal before shifting into gear, the driver had delivered his ultimatum to the cyclists.
"We must rid the roads of these vehicles-of-less-consumption once and for all so that streets will again be safe for drivers of large American cars. By acting now, we are ushering in a new era where Ford and General Motors prevail, so that all citizens of the world can enjoy the privilege of increased horsepower and an elevated roadway status."
With these words, the motorist made good on his promises and pushed forward with his plans. As cyclists, pedestrians, motorists, and police watched with horror, the truck rolled forward, and the bicycle met its death beneath the wheels of the Chevy, the owner of the bike narrowly escaping a similar fate.

:confused:

[Stor Mand]

This has to be a fake story or at least exagerated ... a lot.

[Allister]

Originally posted by scarry
As cyclists, pedestrians, motorists, and police watched with horror, the truck rolled forward, and the bicycle met its death beneath the wheels of the Chevy, the owner of the bike narrowly escaping a similar fate.

:confused:

Was the driver laughing evilly and twirling his moustache?

[JRA]

Originally posted by Stor Mand
This has to be a fake story or at least exagerated ... a lot. Agreed.

At the very best, it's horrible reporting. Without verification and without knowing who wrote it, I don't believe a word of it.

[randya]

Originally posted by scarry
From Portland.

Monster Truck kill bike.

A critical mass participant was nearly run over by an aggressive motorist on Grand Ave. He escaped only at the expense of his beloved orange Peugeot, which fell victim to three-foot tires and an enlarged ego.
In a symbolic (and literal) victory of US aggression over European pleas for peace and progressive policy, a 1970's-era orange Peugeot road bike was run over by a silver, king-cab, long-bed monster truck Chevrolet (license#ZEH364) at the intersection of Grand Avenue and SE Belmont as part of a pro-peace Critical Mass ride.
Cyclists tried to reason with the motorist, but the diplomatic voices were drowned out by the revving of his ten-cylinder diesel engine. With a final push on the gas pedal before shifting into gear, the driver delivered his ultimatum to the cyclists.

:confused:

The story is true. I was there helping to cork this idiot. This article exagerates the motorist's 'quotes'; but this event did indeed transpire on the Day the Iraq War Started, March 20, 2003--the Day of the LIARS (my apologies to George Romero). I've even got a photo of the Zombie..er..driver behind the wheel, but I can't figure out how to open and post it with Netscape Mozilla?

[orguasch]

Originally posted by Chris L
I still say that the best tactic to use during critical mass is to be somewhere else.
I like that idea:D :D

[JRA]

The best idea is to have nothing to do with CM unless CM cleans up it's act. The story about the guy who ran over a bike only emphasizes that point. The article is so biased that it distorts what happened.

It was a CORKING incident, initiated and escalated by Critical Mass. I did not get that at first since the article conviently fails to mention corking. Low and behold, CM succeeded in pissing a guy off to the point that he ran over a bicycle. Sure, the guy is an idiot. He obviously wasn't the only idiot there.

From the article:
Several riders attempted to halt the driver in order to make the roads safer for cyclistsThe problem with that is that pissing off motorists makes the roads more dangerous for cyclists, not safer.
and all other traffic,..."All other traffic", except that CM doesn't allow any other traffic. The words "all other traffic" are just bull.
More cyclists gathered in front of the vehicle as he inched his way forward with no regard for the 200+ riders with whom he shared the road.That's bull too. If he had no regard for their safety, he wouldn't have "inched" forward. But there's more to it than that. CMers had no regard for their own safety.

Where the article says "shared the road", that's bull too. CM doesn't share, CM takes over.

The reason that story looks made up is that the article is so transparently biased.

The problem is not media distortion. The problem is CM's distortion of their highly questionable and counter-productive confrontational tactics.

[Justen]

Originally posted by scarry
As cyclists, pedestrians, motorists, and police watched with horror, the truck rolled forward, and the bicycle met its death beneath the wheels of the Chevy, the owner of the bike narrowly escaping a similar fate.
[/B]

This is clearly exaggerated. If the police were present, why did they not do anything to intervene before it reached this point ?

My main problem with CM rides is that they do not represent the majority of cyclists as responsible or safe. Instead, they come across as belligerent and defiant, blocking traffic and sqawking about all the rights they should have on the road.

As I mentioned before - they could use their "mass" much more effectively by demonstrating safe cycling and just bringing motorists attention to our existence on the road instead of blocking traffic and agitating them.

The result of their blockade like tactics :
The rest of us have to share the road with the motorists they irritated and held up during the CM ride and we have to deal with retaliation. How is that helpful to cyclists ?

Justen

[SamDaBikinMan]

The result of their blockade like tactics :
The rest of us have to share the road with the motorists they irritated and held up during the CM ride and we have to deal with retaliation. How is that helpful to cyclists ?

Justen



AHHH, logical deduction is still alive and well. I agree and resent the possibility of dealing with an angry motorist who targets me in retaliation of what some bunch of morons did at some other place and time.

[scarry]

Exaggerated, no doubt.

Car commercials never exaggerate, right??

Every Car commercial shows drivers happily crusing down roads empty of traffic, speeding, 4x4's trashing the wildlands, car buyers having their ego's inflated, etc.

No exaggeration there, fer sure.

Nice CM pics from SF here.
http://chromoly.net/CM/

[Stor Mand]

Originally posted by scarry
Exaggerated, no doubt.

Car commercials never exaggerate, right??

Every Car commercial shows drivers happily crusing down roads empty of traffic, speeding, 4x4's trashing the wildlands, car buyers having their ego's inflated, etc.

No exaggeration there, fer sure.

Nice CM pics from SF here.
http://chromoly.net/CM/

What do car commercials have to do with this?



(edited for typo)

[Justen]

[i]Where the article says "shared the road", that's bull too. CM doesn't share, CM takes over.
[/B]

Yep..and that is where they lose respect from motorists and other cyclists alike.
They take over, they violate numerous traffic laws and they agitate and provoke motorists and the police.

The whole "claiming the road" thing is BS. Although cyclists do have a right to be on the road, they still have to SHARE it with others in a responsible manner - something that CM riders don't seem interested in.

Justen

[Justen]

Originally posted by nathank
3) make a statement like through CM and try and really CHANGE things


I honestly don't understand what "statement" CM riders are trying to make.

I am all for changing things, particularly when there is a large group that could positively effect change.

However, this is NOT what is happening with CM rides. You do not conduct yourselves in a responsible manner and you misrepresent the majority of cyclists who ride with due diligence and care and are willing to share the road with motorists.

All I ask as a cyclist is that motorists are made more aware of the presence of cyclists on the road and that they treat me with the same respect I show them.
As I said in my other post, by cycling appropriately and not "taking over" an entire lane, 95 % of motorists give me plenty of room and are courteous in return.

I just wish the CM riders would put their efforts into more positive endeavours that would actually benefit their fellow cyclists instead of putting them at further risk on the road from those who they have agitated during a CM ride.

Justen

[scarry]

You all can bad mouth CM all you want, it's not going to stop.
I ride year round, club rides, century's, solo, mountain bike.
I own a car, and sometimes use it to transport my bike.
I commute on my bike and ride to the store on my bike.
My car gets cobwebs on it.
And I love Critical Mass. It is the best I ever feel on a bike.
It's been going on in SF for over 10 years (last Sept was the 10 year anniversary, 10,000 riders showed up including a rolling band pics here http://www.monkeyview.net/id/56/criticalmass2002/index.vhtml) and cycling conditions have only gotten better in the city in that time.
So say what ever you want. This is a movement and history will show that we are going in the right direction. Oil production is going to peak soon, in spite of Bush's oil war.
http://ogj.pennnet.com/articles/EdPro_Article_Display.cfm?&Section=Articles&SubSection=Display&ARTICLE_ID=152444&PUBLICATION_ID=7&VERSION_NUM=1
See you Friday. Justin Herman Plaza, SF. 6pm
http://chromoly.net/CM/
And see you in Mt. Shasta City for the Shasta Century
http://www.shastahome.com/summit-century/

[Justen]

Originally posted by scarry
You all can bad mouth CM all you want, it's not going to stop.
So say what ever you want. This is a movement and history will show that we are going in the right direction.

Despite their protests to the contrary, CM riders appear to have little care or concern for fellow cyclists. Your actions as CM riders put the rest of us at significant risk on the road.

How is that going in the right direction ?

Justen

[gonesh9]

Originally posted by Stor Mand
This has to be a fake story or at least exagerated ... a lot.

Not fake. I was there. The only exageration was the creative wording that the motorist used.

[billwatson58]

Scarry - We have similar riding habits. I've attended 3 CM rides in Chicago, and they are tons of fun. It is hoped that tomorrow's CM in Chicago will draw 1,000 cyclists. IMHO, any negatives created by CM are far outweighed by the positives. My experience with CM rides has been that the emphasis is on having fun, meeting others that share pro-cycling beliefs, and spreading the gospel according to St. Velo. I've not seen the agitating and provoking stuff Justen mentions, nor do I really care to or be a part of it.

[scarry]

Justin sounds like someone who is bitter because he missed the party.

As far as CM being against bikes, that is a hoot.

Keep riding.

[Justen]

Originally posted by scarry
Justin sounds like someone who is bitter because he missed the party.

As far as CM being against bikes, that is a hoot.

Keep riding.

I didn't miss anything by not attending one of your rides.

Furthermore, I didn't say CM rides were against bikes - I said that you have little understanding of the consequences of your actions. I am simply maintaining that you and your CM ride buddies therefore show little insight or understanding into the results of your irresponsible behaviour.

Don't expect to get pats on the back when you act irresponsibly, with no sense of concern whatsover for cyclists who have to contend with the drivers that you have piss*d of during a ride.

Justen
(BTW..I am female)

[Justen]

Originally posted by billwatson58
Scarry - We have similar riding habits. I've attended 3 CM rides in Chicago, and they are tons of fun. It is hoped that tomorrow's CM in Chicago will draw 1,000 cyclists. IMHO, any negatives created by CM are far outweighed by the positives. My experience with CM rides has been that the emphasis is on having fun, meeting others that share pro-cycling beliefs, and spreading the gospel according to St. Velo. I've not seen the agitating and provoking stuff Justen mentions, nor do I really care to or be a part of it.

All the CM rides that I have witnessed or heard about have tied up traffic. CM riders have boasted about provoking police and blocking 2-3 entire lanes of traffic. I guess I just wondered how that kind of behaviour encourages motorists to share the road with us ?

I have no problem with cyclists getting together and enjoying cycling together. I think that's a great idea. My issue is with the provocation of motorists and police.

Justen

[Stor Mand]

Originally posted by Justen
All the CM rides that I have witnessed or heard about have tied up traffic. CM riders have boasted about provoking police and blocking 2-3 entire lanes of traffic. I guess I just wondered how that kind of behaviour encourages motorists to share the road with us ?

I have no problem with cyclists getting together and enjoying cycling together. I think that's a great idea. My issue is with the provocation of motorists and police.

Justen

No need to add to this. :thumbup:

[JRA]

Originally posted by scarry
As far as CM being against bikes, that is a hoot. That's not what Justen said.

What Justen said was: CM riders appear to have little care or concern for fellow cyclists.

That's aboslutely true.

You, for example, have so little regard for others that you can't even quote them accurately.

Sure, Scary, go to you "parties". Have a good time. Don't pay any attention to what others say. Hide your head in the sand with all the others who think your silly "parties" are doing cycling any good at all.

Justen, by the way, made more sense in a single post than all the CM supporters have made in all of their posts combined.

[scarry]

Well like I said, no use arguing, CM will continue.
And by the way, it's not MY ride. I participate 2-3 times a year, the ride belongs to whomever shows up.

Some links about 6 years ago when the SFPD rioted in response to CM and several hundred Massers were arrested.

Later all charges were dropped, and some folks won $$ judgments against the city. Yaaay.

http://www.bclu.org/cm/july25.html

Since we ARE cyclists, it's ridicules to suggest that we are not concerned about cyclist safety.

I suggest you get your information someplace else besides the Oil/Auto sponsored lies peddled as news.

[jester69]

Originally posted by scarry
I suggest you get your information someplace else besides the Oil/Auto sponsored lies peddled as news.

Not everyone that disagrees with CM is "the man" or "a facist."

I read all sorts of news, and am WAY left of center. That being said, I oppose organizations that do me more harm than good. Until proven otherwise CM is one of those organizations.

I mean, I am open to having my mind changed, but so far i'm not impressed. If CM became a bit more rational in its positions, maybe. But just think, my politics are at the far left of the US dial, heck I think NPR is to the right. If you guys can't reach me how the heck are you going to get the rest of the US?

take care,

Jester

P.S. Leftist news sources can lie too, the truth is in the middle somewhere.

[Justen]

Originally posted by scarry

Since we ARE cyclists, it's ridicules to suggest that we are not concerned about cyclist safety.

I suggest you get your information someplace else besides the Oil/Auto sponsored lies peddled as news.

Well, you have not shown any evidence to demonstrate that CM riders are concerned about cyclist safety. Honestly, how does riding around in huge groups - blocking several lanes of traffic promote the idea of sharing the road ?

As for my information - I have watched several critical mass rides and have read about many others on CM ride websites.
I don't have a problem with huge groups of cyclists going out and having fun but not when it comes at the expense of others.

Justen

[khuon]

Originally posted by scarry
Since we ARE cyclists, it's ridicules to suggest that we are not concerned about cyclist safety.

I think someone failed their logic classes. One does not imply the other.

As far as CMers being concerned about cyclists' safety, the effects of Critical Mass are likened to that of someone who hates bees walking into a public park and throwing rocks at every beehive they can find.

My message to the CMers: Do us a favour... stop doing us any favours.

[nathank]

originally posted by Justen
The result of their blockade like tactics :
The rest of us have to share the road with the motorists they irritated and held up during the CM ride and we have to deal with retaliation. How is that helpful to cyclists ?

originally posted by Justen
All I ask as a cyclist is that motorists are made more aware of the presence of cyclists on the road and that they treat me with the same respect I show them.


ok, here i think is one problem i see in the *logic* of those not in favor of CM: you guys seem to think that a few motorists will get pissed off and maybe take out road rage against _YOU_ because of feeling developed against cyclists b/c of the actions of CM...

i contend that THE biggest problem/danger to cyclists is motorists lack of awareness that we exist. CM helps this - even if it's bad publicity, motorists are without question MORE aware of cyclists after CM.

other big problems:
* government/political lack of concern/awarenss for cyclists -- here CM may or may not help in that it should increase AWARENESS that things need to be improved, but the government and public at large may or may not listen

anyway, i still agree with scarry and some of the others that the benefits to the cycling community, namely through increased awareness, increased participation (more cyclists) and increased motiviation to get involved politically, FAR outweigh the small negative that the media portrays CM as "crazy and law-breaking" and a few motorists might develop a grudge against cyclists at large

also, as i said before and scrarry claims for SF, the towns which have the most active CM rides tend to be the ones with a) more cyclists, b) more motorist awareness and repsect and c) more government attention for cycling --- heck, look at San Francisco where in the last 10 years cycling has gone from a very fringe activity unsupported by the government or local people (bikes were banned from many bridges, busses, rail, police ignored bikes in bike-car accidents, etc.), to one of the places with the strongest support for cycling facilities and one of the highest levels of cycling participation... i am pretty confident a lot of that is due to CM

if the anti-CM claims here were true, then places like San Francisco with huge CM rides should be full of motorists who hate cyclists and cyclists should have seen reductions in government/community support and an increase in hostile action from motorists... well, the opposite has occured. i know it's a fuzzy area, but other than the bogus slanted media reports and the radio callers on right-wing radio shows talking about how thex want to run cyclists down, where is the "evidence" that CM really makes things so much worse for cyclists?

CM gets more people on bikes, it empowers them to demand more facilities and not cower to the powers that be AND most importantly increases awareness and lets motorists know cyclists are out there, and politicians know that cyclists are part of the constituency too (and politically involved). again, i contend that the positives are much greater (and tangible) than then supposed negatives...

[DanFromDetroit]

Originally posted by nathank
CM gets more people on bikes, it empowers them to demand more facilities and not cower to the powers that be AND most importantly increases awareness and lets motorists know cyclists are out there, and politicians know that cyclists are part of the constituency too (and politically involved). again, i contend that the positives are much greater (and tangible) than then supposed negatives...

I completely agree with the aims of CM, but I believe their methods to be ineffective at best and counterproductive at worst. I think the best way to accomplish this conscience raising is by putting more responsible cyclists on the road. I think that holding more road rallies and criteriums and getting commuters on the road would raise awareness and dispel the common stereotype of cyclists as irresponsible crazies who are different from the public at large. CM does almost nothing but reinforce these stereotypes.

Dan

[JRA]

Thanks, nathank, for some rational comments from a CMer for a change. You seem to be alone on these forums in that.

But I respectfully disagree.
Originally posted by nathank
an increase in hostile action from motorists... well, the opposite has occured.We were talking about an article concerning a pissed off motorist who ran over a bike. The article is quite biased, but I don't doubt that it happened, or that the guy is a loon. But that incident is inconsistent with the claim that "the opposite has happened". It's just one incident, but it's proof that motorists can and do get pissed off by CM's tactics.

The point of that article, I presume, is to portray CMers as victims. Well, I don't buy it. CM can't have it both ways. CM goes out and intentionally antagonizes people and then, when a bicycle gets run over, CMs claims to be a victim. That's a crock. That bike got what CMers asked for. That's what CM seems to want: more incidents so people get more stirred up. In this case a guy ran over an innocent bike and no one was hurt. No thanks to CM. It's quite possible innocent cyclists (non-CMers) will be run over because of CM's irresponsible disregard for others. I have no proof it will happen, but neither you nor CM have any proof it won't.

To be fair, the previous quote was not all you said. You continued.
Originally posted by nathank
i know it's a fuzzy area, but other than the bogus slanted media reports and the radio callers on right-wing radio shows talking about how thex want to run cyclists down, where is the "evidence" that CM really makes things so much worse for cyclists?You're absolutely right. It's a fuzzy area. If media reports (which you dismiss), and callers to radio shows aren't enough, what do you want? Is one crushed cycle enough? How about one crushed cyclist. How much worse is "so much worse"? What has to happen?

But my real questions is, "Where is CM's concern about this?"
i contend that THE biggest problem/danger to cyclists is motorists lack of awareness that we exist.You're wrong. People know cyclists exist. In fact, most motorists a quite courteous to me. No thanks to CM, that's for sure.
even if it's bad publicity, motorists are without question MORE aware of cyclists after CM.Yep. More aware and more hostile. Shoot, I'm a cyclist and I'm a little hostile toward CM. If CM can piss me off, I'd hate to think how much they could piss off a non-cyclist.

[JRA]

Originally posted by khuon
... the effects of Critical Mass are likened to that of someone who hates bees walking into a public park and throwing rocks at every beehive they can find.That's hilarious!

Unfortunately, it often isn't the rock-thrower who gets stung.

[Justen]

Originally posted by nathank
i contend that THE biggest problem/danger to cyclists is motorists lack of awareness that we exist. CM helps this - even if it's bad publicity, motorists are without question MORE aware of cyclists after CM.


Motorists are already well aware that we exist. They see us everyday on the road and for the most part, are pretty courteous towards us overall.

CM deserves no credit for this whatsoever. I don't want motorists to be aware of us because of the stupid stunts that CM pulls to attract attention and provoke police and motorists.

I want motorists to be aware of us because we are cycling responsibly and SHARING the road with them. Something that CM does not promote. CM rides instead encourage cyclists to "take the lane"...and that is not what I consider sharing the road.

If you (CM) want to do the rest of us a favour, start behaving responsibly and promote safe cycling. Otherwise, don't claim to be representing the majority of cyclists. We can do just fine without you.

Justen

[Stor Mand]

How about if the large group rides courteously and lawfully. I think that might promote their cause a little more. Could you get a group of CMers do do that or is that not what they stand for?

[khuon]

Originally posted by JRA
That's hilarious!

Unfortunately, it often isn't the rock-thrower who gets stung.

Exactly. That's what I was trying to imply but forgot to add. CM makes a situation much worse than it was and leaves it for other people to clean up the mess.

[khuon]

Originally posted by Stor Mand
How about if the large group rides courteously and lawfully. I think that might promote their cause a little more. Could you get a group of CMers do do that or is that not what they stand for?

I have a sneaking suspicion that would be counter to most CMers' agenda. Large lawful and courteous group rides would only get them recognised by the public as just another bike club out for a ride. And that doesn't seem to be their goal. They want to "wake up the people" by being radical and drawing attention onto themselves. "If I hit people over the head with this bat, they're sure to notice me!"

[scarry]

Today is the day.

8 hrs and let the fun begin.

We are not blocking traffic; We ARE traffic.....

See you at Justin (Pee Wee) Herman Plaza.
6pm.
Beers at Lavash.