Originally posted by scarry
Today is the day.

8 hrs and let the fun begin.

We are not blocking traffic; We ARE traffic.....


Then perhaps CM Riders should ACT like traffic.

Hee Hee Hee. This is getting fun.
I don't know if you've ever been to San Fran, but we act far safer than most of the motorized traffic.
but we are quieter and cleaner, with much better fashion sense.

Come on Justin, loosen up, it's Friday.

Your play by the rules thing is making you sound like all the patients that Nurse Ratched from Cookos Nest had under her thumb. It took R.P. McMurphy to shake them up. Remember the last scene, the Chief threw the sink though the window and said stuff your rules.
The rules were made for cars, 29 days of the month we all play by the rules.
The last Friday of the month is our day.
The Nut House will be run by the crazies for about 2 hours.

Originally posted by scarry

Your play by the rules thing is making you sound like all the patients that Nurse Ratched from Cookos Nest had under her thumb. It took R.P. McMurphy to shake them up. Remember the last scene, the Chief threw the sink though the window and said stuff your rules.
The rules were made for cars, 29 days of the month we all play by the rules.
The last Friday of the month is our day.
The Nut House will be run by the crazies for about 2 hours.

And how is this is a way to promote cycling as a serious mode of transport? It sounds to me that people will just come away thinking that cyclists don't care about using their bikes for basic transportation and are only out there to "play in the streets" once a month for a few hours.

Originally posted by scarry
Hee Hee Hee. This is getting fun.... The Nut House will be run by the crazies for about 2 hours.

And you purport to be an advocacy group?

Well, at least you are honest that what you are doing has little or nothing to do with advocacy for cyclists and everrything to do with some "fun."

Hope you have "fun" making bicyclists look like asses.

take care,

Jester

We need to discourage the idiots among us. I am open to suggestion.

At least Scary is honest. Many CM participants are in denial about what CM is and does. Critical Mass is all about lawbreaking. CM's message is "screw the traffic laws" and screw everybody but us. Critical Mass is scary.

Scary's characterization of CM is all to accurate, and Scary's ideas all to prevalent.

Originally posted by scarry
[
The last Friday of the month is our day.
The Nut House will be run by the crazies for about 2 hours. [/B]

Yikes, you all do this ONCE A MONTH? Glad you're not in MY town. I would never, ever participate in one of these rides, and in fact am open to suggestions for openly protesting it at its annual appearance here. To me it's just another mis-application of Radical Politics. Makes you all feel good, it's easier than actively lobbying the decision-makers, it's fun, social, and you might meet someone out there, get lucky, right??? Who knows.

You can have it.

Many of the SF CM riders are members and staff of one of the most influential advocacy group in northern Cal.
SFBC.
http://www.sfbike.org/

CM is not run by SFBC. But the huge growth of SFBC is a direct result of the coesion produced by CM.

You folks are way too serious, it's Friday, I'm having fun with you.
Have a beer and lighten up.

The boot is firmly on your neck and you dis some folks who have thrown it off. I feel sorry for you.:beer:

Well,
guess I will need to get the ball rolling. A state law that required the confiscation of the bicycle of CM participants convicted of a crime during a CM would be one option. A stricter version could require the confication of the bicycle of any participant. That would serve as a disincentive. People who actually are cyclists (more than they are headbangers) would not often risk their bikes.
The second option, and a tall order, would be to license bikes and riders in a manner similar to what is done for cars. One of the best ways to get effective representation is to pay for it. Fees and taxes would get us some clout 'the old fashioned way'. It would also bring the American cycling community closer to the European style Forester writes about so eloquently.

Originally posted by scarry
Many of the SF CM riders are members and staff of one of the most influential advocacy group in northern Cal.
SFBC.


Anyone that would participate in a CM ride that egregiously breaks laws and endangers pedestrians is, IMHO, not an advocate of cycling but a hindrance no matter what decent organization they are associated with.

The boot is firmly on your neck and you dis some folks who have thrown it off. I feel sorry for you.:beer:

Perhaps you don't understand my point. People that break laws in my name and attempt to make me, a cyclist, look bad by association are doing me harm. To use your own terminology, you are not removing the boot from my neck, you are encouraging the law to put it there.

Currently, I am free to ride where I wish. If CM pisses off enough people the laws here will get worse for cyclists not better. have you ever stopped to consider that your antics might get laws changed for the worse? Why do you think "corking" will make some politician go "gee bikes are great, lets make laws to help them."

I feel sorry for people that think their juvenile thrill seeking lawbreaking does anyone any good.

take care,

Jester

P.S. see the other thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32686&perpage=15&pagenumber=3) . you have yet to answer why CM trying to run over pedestrians helps anyone.

Originally posted by scarry
Hee Hee Hee. This is getting fun.

Come on Justin, loosen up, it's Friday.



Why do I take this issue so seriously ?
A very close friend of mine was killed several years ago. I was only a few meters behind her. I witnessed the truck that passed us hit my friend. It was horrific. She died only minutes later as I held her hand.

Real funny huh ???

I really didn't want to bring this experience up here at all as it is extremely painful. The image of my friend going up over this guys hood and into the windshield is one that I will never forget.
The driver was extremely hostile towards cyclists and said we shouldn't have been on the road in the first place.

This is why I feel so strongly about improving the attitude of motorists towards cyclists and this is why I feel frustrated when CM riders continue to ignore the fact that their actions may have serious consequences for other cyclists.

I'm not laughing..I don't find this issue funny at all. I am sorry that you do.

Justen

(PS ..please take note of the spelling ! - I am female - it is spelt differently)

Originally posted by Justen

The driver was extremely hostile towards cyclists and said we shouldn't have been on the road in the first place.


Wow, that is such a sad story. So sorry to hear of your loss.

Were there any consequences for the guy that hit her? With his attitude you have to wonder how careful he was being. Makes my blood boil it does.

take care,

Jester

Very funny, scary. I bet you think you really got us. Yea, we're really idiots. Everybody's an idiot but you, aren't they?

If you think your little stunt raises my opinion of you, you're wrong. I had more respect for you when you were an honest jackass. At least you were honest.

Admit it, scary, you didn't want to discuss the fact that CM is irresponsible and endorses lawbreaking, so you played a little joke on us so you woudn't have to face up to it. I'm wondering. Did you play some nice jokes on motorists at your ride? And did you have a good laugh at their expense?

Yea, we take cycling safety too seriously. We take honesty too seriously.

Originally posted by scarry
Many of the SF CM riders are members and staff of one of the most influential advocacy group in northern Cal.
SFBC.Do they admit it? Is there a mention of CM anywhere on the SFBC website? There might be but, if there is, it's well hidden. I didn't find it. If I were the SFBC (or any responsible cycling organization) I wouldn't admit any association with Critical Mass either.

The SBFC supports sharing the road. CM opposes sharing the road. The SBFC endorses obeying current traffic laws. Critical Mass opposes obeying current traffic laws. For the SBFC to endorse Critical Mass would be hypicritical, to say the least.

Face it, CM is a big party where cyclist act like idiots. If good people have gotten together and started responsible cycling advocacy orgainiztions as a result, that's great. But it doesn't change what CM is, and it doesn't change the fact that CM advocates lawlessness, and it doesn't change the fact that CM gives all cyclists a bad image.

I'm glad it's all a big joke to you, scary. I'm glad you know so much. I'm glad you have no respect for the opinions of other cyclists. I've been a cyclist as a means of transportation for over 40 years. I've been involed in protest organizations (real ones, not jackleg ones like CM that don't have a frickin' clue what they're opposed to). I know what the "boot" is, and I know what police brutality is. Critical Mass is one of the stupidest excuses for a protest organization I've ever seen. Yea, it's successful now. But if it doesn't figure out what it stands for, it's going to fail. And, as a cyclist, I can't wait, because CM stands for all the wrong things.

It's fun now, scary, but eventually, you're going to find out that shooting yourself in the foot is counter-productive.

Originally posted by Justen
Why do I take this issue so seriously ?
A very close friend of mine was killed several years ago. I was only a few meters behind her. I witnessed the truck that passed us hit my friend. It was horrific. She died only minutes later as I held her hand.

Real funny huh ???

I really didn't want to bring this experience up here at all as it is extremely painful. The image of my friend going up over this guys hood and into the windshield is one that I will never forget.


To see as someone close to you dies is very painful.

When my mom was in the hospital and I was visiting her, I saw her neighbor in the next room, the young man about 30, who was dying from the sickness caused by the environment degradation, generally known as cancer. He died earlier than my mom.

60000 people per year die from the environment degradation ilnesses in the EU alone. And the number is growing alarmingly.

There is too much pollution from the cars in our cities. It is not only exhaust. It is the rubber dust from the tires, water with chemicals from washing the cars, painting, repairing, used oil, etc. We have to do something about the pollution. It seems that the CM is the good start.

Anything is better than the endless stream of cars on the street. The drivers of these cars are to be taxed heavily. I would say 10 - 20 times more than now. Everything should be taxed - registration of the car, fuel, monthly ownership tax, etc. On this money the bicycle infrastructure is to be build, hospitals, barriers around the roads with heavy traffic, etc.

Originally posted by Max
It seems that the CM is the good start.

How does CM solve the pollution problem? What CM does is cause a whole bunch of drivers to sit there stuck in the mess still spewing fumes and polluting the atmosphere while CM acts out their antics instead of those same cars being allowed to get to where they were going, parked and shut off. CM just makes the problem worse.

Originally posted by Max
To see as someone close to you dies is very painful.

60000 people per year die from the environment degradation ilnesses in the EU alone. And the number is growing alarmingly.



That is a sad story too..about that young man dying.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that scarry and his CM buddies have shown absolutely no consideration for other cyclists. They ignore our concerns about safe cycling and tell us to "loosen up".

It doesn't occur to them that their actions may have consequences for the rest of us but hey...it's all a big joke to you isn't it Scarry ?

Max..I am not sure what point you were making about environmental degradation? I do agree there should be less cars on the road but realistically - it's not going to happen so we just have to live with it. Unfortunately, the CM riders are just going to make it more dangerous for us to share the road with cars and we have that to contend with on top of all the pollution.

Justen

Originally posted by scarry
I feel sorry for you Save it. You might need it later.

Like if you ever get a frickin' clue.

Originally posted by Justen

Max..I am not sure what point you were making about environmental degradation? I do agree there should be less cars on the road but realistically - it's not going to happen so we just have to live with it.

In Germany the price of the petrol is about 1.- EUR per liter, it makes it about 4.- USD per 1 gallon (1 gallon = 3.78 liters).

They can tax fuel that much because the Green Party leader, Joschka Fischer, is the second man in the government. 9% of German voters are behind him. The green party voters are very active and visible.

My point is very simple and fair. Since the cars is the main source of the hazardous pollution in the cities, the heavy taxes are to be levied on the drivers.

Driving is to be made even more expensive via taxes and fines. The fines for the violation of the traffic rules are to be also increased. It should be the realistic money, like 500 $ per one fine.

So if the fuel costs, say, $10 per gallon and the average fine is $500, there is the chance that there will be less cars on our streets.

Politicians are always eager to increase the taxes. But they need the visible support for it. The CM is very visible and it stands for less traffic and more livable cities.

There could be other forms of action, but the CM looks good to me too.

The drivers also demonstrate. When they introduced the payment for entering the London city center by car, there were the demonstrations of the drivers in London.

Politicians could ignore drivers' demonstration, because there were counter-demonstrations.

So you drive the price to $10/gal .. what happens to the prices of goods? Does anyone (you) consider that if you make huge increases in the cost of fuel, the cost of goods are going to be driven up also due to the higher cost of delivering said goods. Get a real solutions. Not everything is solved by increasing the cost of fuel and taxing things.
Here in Taxachussetts, a speeding violation will basically cost you $1000 (fine and surcharges).

Originally posted by Max
There could be other forms of action, but the CM looks good to me too.



Sorry..I completely disagree with CM rides. They display very irresponsible and disrespectful behaviour when they are cycling and I honestly don't see how that is going to further the cause of cyclists on any level. I have yet to see a CM ride that operates in a responsible manner and therefore resent that they are claiming to respresent the rights and views of all cyclists.

It appears you completely missed my point about the exceptionally poor safety habits of CM riders which leads to motorists taking out their frustrations and anger on cyclists on the road (cyclists who were not involved in your rides and yet have to suffer for your poor judgment).

Justen

Originally posted by JRA
Save it. You might need it later.

Like if you ever get a frickin' clue.

I'm not holding my breath for that to happen..I bet you aren't either ! :-)

CM riders continually fail to see that their behaviour on the road can place other cyclists at risk. Motorists already know that we exist. They don't need to be reminded by an irresponsible bunch of cyclists who can't even adhere to basic rules of the road. How is that going to give them credibility in the eyes of those whose views they want to change ?

Justen

Originally posted by Stor Mand
So you drive the price to $10/gal .. what happens to the prices of goods? Does anyone (you) consider that if you make huge increases in the cost of fuel, the cost of goods are going to be driven up also due to the higher cost of delivering said goods. Get a real solutions. Not everything is solved by increasing the cost of fuel and taxing things.
Here in Taxachussetts, a speeding violation will basically cost you $1000 (fine and surcharges).

The influence on the price of goods would be negligible.

If you have, say, the truck full of computers to deliver, it would not make much difference either the cost of the transportation is $20 or $100.

Besides this tax money will not be lost. They could be spent on the bicycle infrastructure, which would increase the productivity.

Have you ever worked with the duty rosters? You would be surprised to know how much working time is lost to illnesses. Cycling would eliminate these loses.

German cyclists have what they already have because they tax fuel and use the money wisely.

What it will make, it will make the obese lazy hippo to walk to the corner shop to buy his supper instead of driving for a change.

Originally posted by Justen
Sorry..I completely disagree with CM rides. They display very irresponsible and disrespectful behaviour when they are cycling and I honestly don't see how that is going to further the cause of cyclists on any level. I have yet to see a CM ride that operates in a responsible manner and therefore resent that they are claiming to respresent the rights and views of all cyclists.

It appears you completely missed my point about the exceptionally poor safety habits of CM riders which leads to motorists taking out their frustrations and anger on cyclists on the road (cyclists who were not involved in your rides and yet have to suffer for your poor judgment).

Justen

I am for the CM as the peaceful parade and holiday.

I am against damaging property or hurting people.

The police (better on bikes too) should pick up those who break windows, etc. But hooligans happen to appear in any gathering of people.

Originally posted by Max
I am for the CM as the peaceful parade and holiday.

I am against damaging property or hurting people.

The police (better on bikes too) should pick up those who break windows, etc. But hooligans happen to appear in any gathering of people.

Unfortunately, CM rides encourages poor behaviour and and people can and do get hurt as a result.

The majority of CM riders break the law everytime they go out on their rides. They seem to feel that they are above the law and boast about their antics on websites via photos and comments.

Again, it appears that they have no real intention of making changes. As another poster here said - they keep traffic backed up so it's not about decreasing pollution or getting cars off the road. They violate numerous Motor vehicle laws so it's not about promoting cyclist safety on the road.

So it seems that they are going out there for no real purpose except to annoy and agitate everybody around them and misrepresent the majority of cyclists who are generally law abiding.

Justen

Wrong wrong wrong. Last night's bike parade in Chicago was tons 'o fun. The map passed out encouraged riders to ride safely and be nice to cars: "Be nice to people in cars. Remember, we're having more fun than they are. This month's motorist could be next month's masser. Enjoy yourself!" Pedestrians and motorists alike gave us enthusiastic greetings. Most enthusiastic were residents of the housing projects in some pretty rough areas on the south side. For the first half of the ride we were led by two of Chicago's finest in blue. http://www.chinet.com/~art/july-2003-mass/ http://community.webshots.com/album/82890928MNEdCT

Originally posted by billwatson58
Wrong wrong wrong. Last night's bike parade in Chicago was tons 'o fun.

And yet, here you are running a red light en masse, endangering crossing pedestrians, and breaking the laws regarding lane usage by bicyclists.

http://www.chinet.com/~art/july-2003-mass/17.jpg

Yep, promoting the image of the responsible cyclist, good job. Why are you corking the pedestrians and trampling on their rights, what did they do to you?

It is so hypocritical beyond belief that CM gets mad cars do not respect bicyclists rights, and then turn right around and trample on the pedestrians rights.

Peas,

Jester

P.S. It can only be called a parade if you have a permit and the streets are closed, otherwise its illegal obstruction of traffic.

Originally posted by jester69
and breaking the laws


Unjust laws exist: shall we be content to obey them, or shall we endeavor to amend them, and obey them until we have succeeded, or shall we transgress them at once? Men generally, under such a government as this, think that they ought to wait until they have persuaded the majority to alter them. They think that, if they should resist, the remedy would be worse than the evil. But it is the fault of the government itself that the remedy is worse than the evil. It makes it worse. Why is it not more apt to anticipate and provide for reform? Why does it not cherish its wise minority? Why does it cry and resist before it is hurt? Why does it not encourage its citizens to point out its faults, and do better than it would have them? Why does it always crucify Christ and excommunicate Copernicus and Luther, ...

Henry D. Thoreau

Originally posted by billwatson58
Wrong wrong wrong. Last night's bike parade in Chicago was tons 'o fun. The map passed out encouraged riders to ride safely and be nice to cars: "Be nice to people in cars. Remember, we're having more fun than they are. This month's motorist could be next month's masser. Enjoy yourself!" Pedestrians and motorists alike gave us enthusiastic greetings.

I don't doubt that it was tons of fun - for YOU..but what about the other people who you gave absolutely no consideration to. i.e. those trying to cross the street, those trying to get home and being stuck behind a bunch of cyclists who are acting like morons.

I don't see how ignoring traffic lights and cycling like this causes people to have respect for cyclists on the road ?

How is this being nice to people in cars ? or anybody else trying to use the road for that matter ?

Justen

Originally posted by Max
Unjust laws exist: shall we be content to obey them, or shall we endeavor to amend them, and obey them until we have succeeded, or shall we transgress them at once?

Perhaps that is our disagreement.

I find NOTHING unjust about requiring cyclists to stop at red lights so pedestrians may cross safely.

I find NOTHING unjust about requiring cyclists when moving more slowly than the speed limit to take reasonable actions not to impede traffic. (e.g if there are two lanes in the direction you are going, leve the fast lane for the cars.)

the laws regarding cyclists here where I live I find to be completely just. By and large I have more rights than cars. However, I wish the current laws were more understood and enforced.

Thoreaus words are very good and well spoken, but to apply them here is wrong. True injustice is imprisionment without habeus corpus, no access to a lawyer, having a policeman stop you without good reason and arrest you because of the color of your skin, putting video cameras in every public place.

enforcing laws designed to keep everyone safe, doesn't bother me in the least and do not feel unjust.

take care,

Jester

Originally posted by Max
Unjust laws exist: shall we be content to obey them, or shall we endeavor to amend them,

Max...I don't think Henry Thoreau was thinking about Critical Mass rides when he wrote this :-)

Please tell me - which laws do you feel are unjust ?

How do you hope to influence those that actually have the power to amend the laws you feel are unjust by continually breaking the law yourself and violating the rights of other citizens ? (i.e. pedestrians who get ambushed and trapped as they try to cross the same street the CM riders are on).

If you want to be treated equally and have the same rights as motorists, then you need to follow the same laws as the majority of motorists do. But it appears that CM Riders have little interest in anybody's rights or safety but their own and even that is questionable after seeing the above photo.

Justen

Originally posted by jester69
Perhaps that is our disagreement.

I find NOTHING unjust about requiring cyclists to stop at red lights so pedestrians may cross safely.

I find NOTHING unjust about requiring cyclists when moving more slowly than the speed limit to take reasonable actions not to impede traffic. (e.g if there are two lanes in the direction you are going, leve the fast lane for the cars.)

Thoreaus words are very good and well spoken, but to apply them here is wrong.
enforcing laws designed to keep everyone safe, doesn't bother me in the least and do not feel unjust.

take care,

Jester

Well said ! This is exactly what I wanted to convey in my most recent message. In fact, I think we said almost the same thing.

When I see Critical Mass riders like the ones in the photo that was most recently posted, I cringe.

I can only imagine how terrifying it would be for a senior citizen or a small child (or anybody for that matter) to be attempting to cross the road and be suddenly surrounded by a mass of people on bikes, yelling, shouting and swarming around them. While the CM riders boast about what a fun ride they had, they leave these scared, stunned pedestrians in their wake and then expect that everybody should treat them as equals and give them respect. I don't see motorists swarming around children en masse...and scaring the hell out of them so I wonder why CM riders think they have the right to do this ?

The laws are there for the protection of EVERYBODY. I see nothing unjust about traffic lights, stop signs, or pedestrian crossings etc.

If CM riders want to be treated as equals on the road, they need to start following the same laws as everybody else and respecting the rights of citizens around them.

Justen

That I witnessed last night no pedestrians were scared or stunned or blah blah blah. On several occasions I did witness riders stopping to allow people to walk across our path. Also seen were a lot of people on the sidewalks smiling, waiving, and cheering us on. Remember, the theme is "bikes are fun", not "bikes are good way to harass pedestrians".

Last nite CM report from SF.

Good times for all.
Motorists waving and giving the thumbs up.
Pedestrians doing the same.
Those Peds who wished to cross the street were given safe passage by cyclists who would accompany then across.
Close to 1,000 cyclists safely using the road.

The most awsome thing I witnessed last nite was this.

The mass was together and had completely occupied Kerny, a one way 3 or 4 lane main thoroughfare, for about 4 of 5 blocks, moving smoothly at about 12 mph due to the excellent job of 'corking' (bless you guys and gals).
This 12 mph, mind you is well above the average motor car speed on a normal day.
In the distance, behind, is heard the sound of an emergency vehicle's horn sounding.
A shout went out, "everyone move to the side", and in a flash the roadway was clear.
With a huge roar, horns blaring, the fire engine raced through the open avenue at a good 45mph.
Now folks, can you imagine the fire trucks progress if the street had been clogged with cars. All this took place in matter of seconds.

All you nay-sayers sound like a bunch of motorist trolls who have infiltrated a cyclist message board.

Your prediction of dire consequences, negative impacts on cycling advocacy and safey, and the demise of CM are bunk.
This event has been going on for over 10 years in SF.
The ride has learned over the years that 'corking' results in a smoother event for everybody, cyclist and motorist alike because it allows the mass to move along and exit any given area quicker.
The police are present and allow this because they too are experianced with CM and know it serves everyone better this way. If the 'corking' becomes unreasonable, the the police step in and take care of it. Some motorists do become enraged, but these are the same ragers who annoy and endager other motorists and cyclists every day.

There are no leaders, just as there are now leaders of mass movments of smog-mobiles which clog city streets, killing peds cyclist and each and other every day.

Every city's CM has a different flavor, and is run by the folks who show up. If the riders decide to follow the letter of the law, then it will be thus. Austin has a ride called Courteous Mass.
A small CM ride has no need to 'cork' as the group can get through intersections together safely.

SFBC does mention CM in it's calender, check it out.
http://www.sfbike.org/events_and_rides/calendar/
next CM is aug 29.
See all you lovely velo folks there.

Scarry,
9 times finisher of the Markleeville 'Death Ride'
http://www.deathride.com/
Bike Commuter.
I ride 5,000 miles a year and done so for 30 years.
Any one who would like to chat in person can find me on the Shasta Century, look for the silver Bacchetta Ti Aero.
Aug 3. http://www.shastahome.com/summit-century/

or the Eastern Sierra Fall Century September 13, 2003
http://www.fallcentury.org/

or the Grizzly Century October 4th 2003
http://www.grizzlycentury.org/grizhome.htm

Until the, See Ya

Originally posted by billwatson58
That I witnessed last night no pedestrians were scared or stunned or blah blah blah. On several occasions I did witness riders stopping to allow people to walk across our path. Also seen were a lot of people on the sidewalks smiling, waiving, and cheering us on. Remember, the theme is "bikes are fun", not "bikes are good way to harass pedestrians".

Whatever. I have no respect for CM Riders - regardless of whether you have fun or not - you still show no respect for others so don't expect any from those of us who cycle responsibly.

Some words forwarded from Jym at NY Critical Mass, Bike Summer in NY.

http://www.bikesummer.org/2003/

=v= There are those who think rides should follow traditions,
and I do believe it's traditional for July 25th rides in San
Francisco to have some sort of police riot. Perusing the
headlines this morning, though, I see a shocking disregard
for tradition. (Then again, it was also the 107th anniversary
of the Great Bicycle Parade of 1896:

http://www.shapingsf.org/ezine/transit/index.html

and there's a shocking shortage of tatterdemallions and bloomer
girls overall these days.)

=v= At any rate, I know *I* had a great ride. We took the
bridge east, all the way over, then we took it back. I saw
Jason at the tail end of the Mass, trying to talk sense to
someone in a big black car. It was just like being in San
Francisco except, you know, it was New York City.

=v= So, how did the San Francisco ride go? :^)
<_Jym_>

For those who would like to do further reading about CM.
Get the book. Get the video.

http://www.akpress.org/

Critical Mass: Bicycling's Defiant Celebration

Search for Critical Mass,

or Author
Ted White

See the video "Return of the Scorcher "

and
We Aren't Blocking Traffic, We Are Traffic!

On the same topic, I can recommend Immortal Class: Bike Messengers and the Cult of Human Power by Travis Culley
http://btobsearch.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=375SL4S8DS&btob=Y&isbn=0375760245&itm=1

If the above link doesn't work, just do a search in google for Travis Culley

If you look at some of the pictures, they are also riding on the wrong side of the road toward oncoming traffic ... real good way to promote cycling.
:rolleyes:

Whatever. I have no respect for CM Riders - regardless of whether you have fun or not - you still show no respect for others so don't expect any from those of us who cycle responsibly.

You may not respect us, but we still love you, because you ride.

Maybe someday, we all ride together:cry:

Originally posted by billwatson58
That I witnessed last night no pedestrians were scared or stunned or blah blah blah.

That is a bit of a jerky thing to say. Sounds like a car driver talking about a cyclist.

"Sure I was driving drunk and running red lights, but I didnt see any cyclists scared or stunned or blah blah blah."

Just because no-one was impacted or harmed this time does not make your action any more legal or right. That is similar to saying that driving drunk is fine on any trip no-one gets run over. Compeltely wrong, and indefensible logic.

The very act of running the redlight steps on the pedestrians right, just as a car running a redlight steps on the right of the cyclist to go the other way on green.

Since you cannot recall any scared or stunned pedestrians at your CM ride, here are two captured on film at another CM ride:

Lady in crosswalk with walk sign being almost run over by CM (http://www.monkeyview.net/id/56/criticalmass2002/IMG_6283.vhtml)

man caught in same crosswalk looking scared (http://www.monkeyview.net/id/56/criticalmass2002/IMG_6282.vhtml)

I think I am done with you CM folks and this thread. I have made my point where any reasonable person reading this will conclude that CM is a bad idea. Unreasonable persons like you and scarry et al. will continue to willfully disregard the rights of others in the name of "activism" wether I make a logical point or not.

You cannot trod on the rights of others to try to get them to respect your rights. it does not work, respect is a two way street. That is the critical flaw of critical mass, and why I will not participate.

take care,

Jester

Originally posted by jester69
I think I am done with you CM folks and this thread. I have made my point where any reasonable person reading this will conclude that CM is a bad idea. Unreasonable persons like you and scarry et al. will continue to willfully disregard the rights of others in the name of "activism" wether I make a logical point or not.
Jester

I too am tired of this thread. It is clear that the CM Riders will not accept any responsibility for their absolutely selfish and inconsiderate behaviour. I would liken them to drunk drivers who kill people - they are in such a state of denial that they won't admit there is any problem and ignore their impact on other people. In any case, their arguments lack logic and a fundamental concern for other's rights.

So..that's it for me on this thread. All the CM Riders here can pat themselves on the back for being idiots and for putting the rest of us at risk.

Justen

Here's another link to info on SFPD Police Riot at the July '97 SF CM ride, and the City of San Francisco's efforts to discredit CM (hint--it didn't work...).

http://brasscheck.com/cm/

Other cities' police forces (Portland, OR, Santa Cruz, CA, Buffalo, NY) have belatedly taken up the now discredited SFPD tactics of ramming bicycles with police cruisers and motorcycles, body-slamming cyclists to the ground, using a variety of painful restraint holds, 'non-lethal' rubber bullets, pepper spray and electoshock (taser) weapons, and fabricating traffic violations and other more serious charges against peaceful cyclists whose only 'crime' is participating in a CM ride.

Last time I checked, the Bill of Rights was still in effect and free speech was still a Constitutional Right, and, as much as the police and motorists wish it were so, the flow of traffic does not have priority. Guess what--if the cops followed any motorist around closely for an hour or two, I'm sure that motorist would eventually make a mistake resulting in a ticketable offense. This routinely happens on CM rides in Portland that are attempting to ride completely legally!

If you're not outraged then you're not paying attention.

PS--Generally, after one of these illegal police riots, the next month's ride is even larger...

Originally posted by Stor Mand
How about if the large group rides courteously and lawfully. I think that might promote their cause a little more. Could you get a group of CMers do do that or is that not what they stand for?

CM is perfectly capable of riding legally and at times does just that. Traffic tieups are even worse when you've got a large group of cyclists spread out for blocks and stopping at every red light, so if tying up traffic and pissing motorists off (rather than just riding your bike with the group) is your goal, a legal 'by the book' ride is just the way to accomplish that. So, when the police force the ride to go legal, they are just making things worse for everyone. I'm not sure if that's the officers' intention, or if they're just too stupid to get it.


Riding a 'legal' CM also doesn't stop the police from putting every aspect of the riders behavior under the microscope and issuing numerous traffic tickets for bogus violations, in an attempt to discourage attendance; and has at times resulted in seriously unsafe conditions such as when large numbers of police on motorcycles attempt to block and squeeze hundreds of cyclists into a 4-foot wide bike lane on a busy downtown street. BTW--cyclists are not legally required to be in the bike lane in Oregon.

This post is just another example of Stor Mand's ignorance of Critical Masses' goals, tactics and accomplishments.

Originally posted by randya

If you're not outraged then you're not paying attention.


I am outraged. I'm outraged that CM'ers seem to think that breaking the law and trampling the rights of others is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, and that it helps anyone.

Originally posted by randya
CM is perfectly capable of riding legally and at times does just that. Traffic tieups are even worse when you've got a large group of cyclists spread out for blocks and stopping at every red light

...snipping the blah blah blah ...

This post is just another example of Stor Mand's ignorance of Critical Masses' goals, tactics and accomplishments.

Yes, I'm the ignorant one thinking I'm above the law and can do whatever the hell I feel like doing when out on my bike :rolleyes: . I think the ignorant one is quoted above if you can't see where riding courteously and lawfully might promote bicycling. Better yet, get an effing permit if you want to clog the street with your self-serving cause. :rolleyes:


(edited for typo)

Still I think that CM is much better than other movements with similar agenda.

Have a look at this site www.earthliberationfront.com and you will see what I mean.

I am surprised that the ELF is still on-line.

I can not understand how burning big buildings can improve the ecology.

Originally posted by randya
CM is perfectly capable of riding legally and at times does just that.Exactly. CM chooses to ride illegally. And it's not for a principle, but for mere convenience. In the process, CM practices and, in so doing, endorses breaking the traffic laws.

CM tactics run counter to the idea of sharing the road. If CM supported sharing the road, it would practice it.

Many CMers are in denial about what lawbreaking means and what it represents. CMers can try to justify it all they want. It's a disgrace to them and a disgrace to cycling - not to mention an insult to cyclists who ride legally all the time, not just when it's convenient.

Riding a 'legal' CM also doesn't stop the police from putting every aspect of the riders behavior under the microscope...No but, by riding illegally, CM loses any moral high ground it might otherwise have. By breaking the traffic laws, CM gives justification to enforcement by the police.

Besides, since when did two wrongs make a right?

CM doesn't get any bonus points for riding legally "at times". That just means that CM thinks it's above the law and can pick and choose when to obey the law, and when not to. That's no different than what any other lawbreakers do. It's not classic civil disobedience, as someone claimed in another thread. That's just silly. Classic civil disobedience involves violating an unjust law. CM makes a point of violating a just law. It's lawbreaking simply as a means of convenience, and it's a silly position for CM to take, no matter how CMers rationalize it.

I wonder if CMers really want to make a stand on this issue. I wonder if it's really worth it just so rides will run more smoothly. I wonder if they really endorse lawbreaking, or if they've just been backed in to the corner of defending lawbreaking by the fact that CM practices it.

On most things I agree with CM. In endorsing lawbreaking, CM is wrong. It's a mistake and I will not support it. As long as CM practices lawbreaking, I will not support CM.

Originally posted by JRA
On most things I agree with CM. In endorsing lawbreaking, CM is wrong. It's a mistake and I will not support it. As long as CM practices lawbreaking, I will not support CM.

I just happen to think that many of the things CM says they try and accomplish are better done by other groups that do ride their bikes lawfully and do show positive aspects of cycling. As such, I don't see why any cyclist would want to waste their time on something as counter-productive as CM rides when other avenues (no pun intended) achieve their goals better... unless of course their goal is simply to go out there and act like jack*****es.

hmmm....
cm thread....
anthing new being said?.... <read read read read read read read read>
<scroll scroll>
<read read read read read read read>
nope....
move along

somebody kill this thread