Tactics to use during critical mass

Max

Originally posted by scarry
You can kill this tread, but CM will not die.

Some day there will be no need for the CM.

People will recall it as they recall now the movements of 60s.

In, say, 2030 the young man may ask his Dad:

- Is it true that in 90s and 10s the quality of the air in our cities was so bad that people were getting sick and dying because of it?

- Yes, son. It is true.

- Did you participate in the protests?

- Yes, I did. I cycled with the CM. First we were few, just some hundred riders, then our numbers grew...

Children understand and feel better than we think. In my son's school group they read and speak about wild life animals, about extinction of species, etc.

I do not remeber that this topic was of any interest during my school years. Children and teens understand well that the environment collapse is the main threat for their lives nowadays. Exactly as the young people in 60s realized that the main threat for them was the belligerent establishment.

The "old guard" does not care about such things, the environment will last long enough for them. But young people realize that they will receive as the heritage the contaminated planet, without many wild life species.

I think this explains why there are so many young people on the CM rides.

late

Every generation gets together to raise a little hell. The lawbreaking of the 60's protesters not only undermined the anti-war effort; it created a cultural counter-reaction that remains with us to this day. If you ever grow up and learn to think, first identify the hinge points. These are places where a small change can have a substantial effect, like the way the gas tax did in Europe.
You then need to learn politics. You are up against the highway lobby; unlike you and pals; they know what they're doing. Lastly, you need to learn how to motivate,organise, and manage a mass movement. Good luck.

Max

Originally posted by late
Every generation gets together to raise a little hell. The lawbreaking of the 60's protesters not only undermined the anti-war effort; it created a cultural counter-reaction that remains with us to this day. If you ever grow up and learn to think, first identify the hinge points. These are places where a small change can have a substantial effect, like the way the gas tax did in Europe.
You then need to learn politics. You are up against the highway lobby; unlike you and pals; they know what they're doing. Lastly, you need to learn how to motivate,organise, and manage a mass movement. Good luck.

Have you seen the movie "Postman" with Kevin Costner?

The movie is about the crook, who found the postman's uniform and started to cheat people that he is the Postal Service official of the Restored United States to get some food and shelter.

Instead he almost unwillingly became the leader of the army of the new postmen, who finally restored the United States.

I mean that when the society is ripe for a change, it needs just a hint of the leadership, and the new leaders are born.

I think this explains the phenomenon of the German Green Party leader Joschka Fischer. The man does not practically say anything, but his popularity grows with every election.

khuon

You know... the only thing that would worry me more than the damage CM does to the image of cycling and cyclists is the suggestion that we should be taking cues from a Hollywood overproduced movie on how to effect societal re-engineering.

billwatson58

too good not to share, from the Chicago CM listserve:

Last Friday was my first CM and I thought it was fantastic. There were many
moments that staggered me with the thought: "things really could be this
way". People spending the actual needed resource to accomplish a certain
task. Enjoying the environment. Moving at a pace that actually observed the
city. Not moving in a way that created a lot of waste and anger.
I moved to Chicago about four years ago. Before that I lived in Austin and
lived a bike-intensive existence as I had done since I was a kid. I have
biked in different countries and have biked clear across the US from Oregon
to NC. But since being in Chicago, I have not biked much at all.
I have had five car accidents, totaling two cars. Last year, while running,
I was struck by an SUV and had my foot almost torn off and the doctors were
fearful they would amputate. Fortunately, it did not happen, but I still
limp and deal with daily problems. Not the least of which is anger. Anger at
the man who hit me and instead of helping me merely stood on the side of the
street and screamed at me and raged at who would pay for the damage to his
car.
Since then my moral outrage at cars has increased daily. I own a car. A nice
one. An expensive one. One that is much more than I would ever desired for
myself. Why? Protection. It has lots of air bags. I still suffer a lot of
post-traumatic stress in traffic and it seemed like a good solution.
But I know it is not. Chicago bothers me and 95% of the reason is traffic.

I am an architect by trade and having read many of these messages I see a
theme which has been an interest of mine for some time. It seems as though
biking is the method of expression for a distaste of excess energy. A
distaste for excess, in general. Which is a great value, I think.
Reaction Mr. Matter's "plan"* is difficult as we all know it is both right
and wrong at once. we know that the basic assumption that we can not have
whatever we want must be true. And we believe that the waste and consumption
as it stands is moribund. His plan is not a new idea and verges on the
anachronistic, as well as overly simplistic. But although it is "utopian"
(noplace) it is not atopical and does state firmly certain core values - the
belief in which would make a highly superior environment to what we
currently have.
But how? How do the values become policy?
CM was an exciting example of that for me. I don't believe it is enough. But
is an excellent statement, practice, and implementation of an idea. This
should be a template for the other myriad concerns that we have for
consumption, from driving to housing to eating.
Moreover, CCM has taken some of the fear of getting back out in the street
and seeing that it is possible to ride and commute in Chicago. Cautiously.

* FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Contact: Bob Matter
rjmatter@prodigy.net
The Campaign for a Free and Clear Lakefront
http://www.foreverfreeandclear.org

CFCL in Winner's Circle

CHICAGO -- July 26, 2003 -- For the fourth time in as many years, the Campaign for a Free and Clear Lakefront was in the winner's circle at the Newberry Library's annual Bughouse Square Debates. CFCL speaker Bob Matter won third place from a field of twelve for his speech titled "An Enviro-nomic Recovery Plan".

The cornerstone of the plan is creation of a government jobs program reminiscent of the Civilian Conservation Corps to raze suburbs and build affordable multi-family dwellings in cities. Land formerly occupied by the suburbs would be converted to farmland or allowed to revert back to nature. The plan also calls for making many city streets car-free for pedestrian and cyclist safety, and vastly expanding and upgrading inter- and intra- city rail.

Contact Bob Matter <rjmatter@prodigy.net> for further information.

On the web:

The Campaign for a Free and Clear Lakefront
http://www.foreverfreeandclear.org

Max

Amen.

Thanks for your first hand impression.

Originally posted by billwatson58
I own a car. A nice
one. An expensive one. One that is much more than I would ever desired for
myself.

This is the only part, which you could exclude from your interesting post.

I mean - "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

scarry

A San Francisco Superior Court judge gave the Bay Area's transportation and air-quality agencies 60 days to come up with a plan to cut by about 5 percent the smog-producing pollutants spewing into the environment.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/07/30/MN184478.DTL

What's this got to do with Critical Mass you ask?
Think about it.

PaulH

. I own a car. A nice
one. An expensive one. One that is much more than I would ever desired for
myself.

Well, that seems a sufficient reason to bike-commute and just drive it on weekends. That's one reason why I do.

Paul

billwatson58

Max - Can't take credit for this, it wasn't my post. I cut and pasted it from the Chicago CM listserv.

JRA

Originally posted by scarry
What's this got to do with Critical Mass you ask?
Think about it. It has nothing to do with CM's tactics.

scarry

It has nothing to do with CM's tactics.

If you don't like the tatics used by the folks involved in your city's CM ride, feel free to show up and propose your own tatics, like obeying every letter of the law for example.

St. Louis is a very small CM ride and I'm sure you should have no trouble talking with them, and maybe getting them to agree with you.

There are no leaders, so show up and try to sway them.
There is no such thing as official CM tactics.

Here's a link to their list serve.
http://www.topica.com/lists/STLCM/?cid=13137

Looks like their website is down right now.

JRA

Hopefully, the St. Louis CM will stay small or get smaller, and organizations like Trailnet (http://www.trailnet.org/) and the St Louis BikeFed (http://www.stlbikefed.org/index2.htm) will get bigger.

There is no such thing as official CM tactics.
You say that as if it's a good thing.

Poguemahone

I've always tended to stay away from goup demonstrations, as they always tend to attract trouble. As a cyclist with 20+ years of experience riding in traffic, very few things could radicalize me enough to join a critical mass ride. Those are:
1) The complete banning of cycling in an urban area.
2) The limitation of cyclists to posted cycle paths.
In other words, anything which restricts my access to the roads my tax dollars help pay for. The only restrictions on my bike are on the interstate, and that's not an effective (or safe) route.

My relationship with cars is sufficently antagonistic (I do own one, but it's only real use is hauling kayaks around)-- a sizable minority of car drivers should be allowed to drive nothing more threatening than a Mattell Big Wheel in my opinion. Yet I don't see the point of clogging traffic to demonstrate the viability of a bicycle as effective urban transport. Cars do a fine job of slowing down traffic all by themselves; a primary reason to cycle in an urban environment is that, frankly, it's faster. They don't need our help in the slightest. I regularly move faster than auto traffic in the Fan and downtown here in Richmond. By blocking traffic, CM serves only to make worse problems already caused by the car itself, and does little (perhaps nothing) to solve said problems. (In order to get people out of their cars, the last thing you need to do is piss off motorists at cyclists. Pissed off people don't think, in my experience). CM is the sort of antagonistic behaviour I'd expect from someone driving a car, not from someone riding a bike.

The CM rides in Richmond are small (about 30-35) and consist of little more than a few college kids blocking traffic and whooping. I've had discussions with a few of the riders, mostly on bike arcana, but when asked to join, I've politely refused. The CM riders here have been gassed by the police, hit by angry motorists, and heck if I know what else. I'll pass, thanks.

The car is possibly the most effective argument for the bike in an urban setting. Cars expenisive, innefective, time-consuming, wasteful, and polluting. Bikes are none of the above. A CM ride can never make that argument effectively. Spend your time fixing a neighbour's bike so they can pedal around the hood instead of driving to the corner store. I've done this, and it's quite effective. It's a radical move on a small scale, and a smart one. You make converts one at a time, not en masse. You won't convert that guy in a Yukon to your POV by blocking him with your bike and telling him how stupid he is. You've got to make him have a realization and have him think he's smarter for it.

scarry

Got to love it, the thread that will not die.:D

Max

Originally posted by Poguemahone
I've always tended to stay away from goup demonstrations, as they always tend to attract trouble.

If you can stay away from the demonstration, by all means, do this. It means that it's not your demonstration.

However if you can not stay away from the demonstration, no matter what, means that your time has come.

Originally posted by Poguemahone
Spend your time fixing a neighbour's bike so they can pedal around the hood instead of driving to the corner store. I've done this, and it's quite effective. It's a radical move on a small scale, and a smart one. You make converts one at a time, not en masse.

It sounds convincing. At the same time, to repair the bike one often needs spare parts. I can not imagine myself walking around the neighborhood repairing bikes, buying spare parts for people. I would rather buy something for my own bike, like new panniers.

Besides, to start to commute to the store, one would need also some other gear, not only the bike. One would need some basic knowledge too. All in all - the will.

Speaking of demonstrations. Please, note that the situation is not settled, it develops dynamically.

The average life span is rather high now, but this is due to the generation, which grew up during the years, when there were practically no cars and no pollution.

In 30s there were not that much cars around. Even in 60s and 70s it was OK. The hoopla started in the middle of 80s or early 90s. And it is growing. It is far from over. Such places as Africa, China, India, FSU are joining the frenzy very fast. I was recently in Kathmandu, Nepal, and even in this relatively poor nation there are already zillions of cars and motorcycles on the streets, so many like you woudn't believe.

The environmental damage, generated by the car culture, is not the local appearance for the particular street or city. It is the gobal process. We are only at the very early stage of it.

Chldren are most vulnerable to pollution. We will see how it influences their health and life span only in some decades. But there are the bad signs already now. The ilnesses caused by the environmental pressure, generally known as cancer (actually these are more than 300 illnesses bundled wrongly under one name), are getting "younger" and growing in number alarmingly.

We still have no idea how the mass motorized traffic on our streets will influence our health in the long run. Because such a bad air quality is the new phenomena, which is 10 - 15 years old. The new polluting geographical regions will be adding up to the problem.

No one says that the CM is perfect. But at least it is the good start. One has to start with something to gain the experience for future.

Dr. Manhattan

The purpose of a protest is to bring attention to an issue, PERIOD. Stopped traffic, local news crews and yes, angry motorists get attention. A lot of people see a car centered culture as inimical to a human centered one. There are many rights we take for granted that were won for us by people who were tired of "asking nicely". This "working within the system" mindset simply allows people to feel better about themselves while their energies are coopted by the very people they claim to be fighting against!

SD Fixed

Originally posted by randya
[B] "We are not blocking traffic, we ARE traffic"

This should be a dual use philosophy. I am not blocking traffic, I am traffic, and should behave as such. Other people should see me as a part of traffic, not blocking it. CM has the theory, just wrong approach.

SD Fixed

Originally posted by randya
As the saying on Critical Mass goes: "We are not blocking traffic, we ARE traffic". When 1,000 cyclists are on the road together, THEY are the ones who establish what the 'normal speed of traffic' is at that place and time.

I've seen Critical Mass rides of 1,000+ riders yield responsibly to emergency vehicles, the same as is required of all road users.

Uh, from the portland group:
OR CM GROUP SAID
At about 6:15 with 6 regulars from the Portland C.M joined by 6 never-rode-mass-before Washington Co. riders, we sallied forth, first heading west to ride around GM's regional support center. some of their employees outside cheered us while we made noise riding around the building.
Finally , just west of the last offramp west of the 217 we stopped and discussed getting off on Cedar Hills Blvd or continuing E towards Portland. We, as a group, decided to not brave the 26/217 interchange that would have been almost as dangerous as the 405/26 interchange and bombed down to McMenamins for an after-ride party instead. I originally only envisioned possibly 20 riders showing up but believed the people who told me that they were getting responses from people they were talking to that we might get up to 200. Remember, all of the Critical Masses started with just a small original ride. Another way to view this ride is that we had a 100% increase in "new" riders. Will next month's ride in Wa. County be 2 dozen? Who knows, we'll find out at 6 PM the last Friday of August at Hillsboro Stadium.

Soo.. at least 12 isn't that many to make a bad name.

jcivic00

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...no, really what's the point of CM again? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

scarry

Originally posted by jcivic00
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...no, really what's the point of CM again? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

Watch the movie, read the book.

http://www.tedwhitegreenlight.com/

SD Fixed

Originally posted by scarry
Watch the movie, read the book.

http://www.tedwhitegreenlight.com/

And what, learn that he's an advocate.. that he has ideals.. that he feels he should dictate what others do... that he is god above others in that he can decide when people should think about other solutions.

I'm all for waking up the public to the benefits of cycling. I'm all for making roads more friendly to bikes. Shoot, there's a section of Jamacha in San Diego that I think the urban planners should be strung up by thier ear hair for.

But I'm not up for street level terrorism and hostage taking and abuse of other peoples property... At the expense of other bicyclist who will suffer when they are out on their own.

The book.. says nothing that thier actions don't speak louder about.

Action says it all.

scarry

street level terrorism and hostage taking and abuse of other peoples property...

Puleeezzzz, you can rant all you want. Hostage taking...ROFLMAO.
Yea, last month we had Patricia Hearst riding with us.
Next month who knows, maybe the Talaban.

Ebbtide

No one says that the CM is perfect. But at least it is the good start. One has to start with something to gain the experience for future.

A "good start", how?

Making national news by getting beat up is not good. If it is, in the name of "goodness" come over here on your bike and I'll give you a beat-down in the interest of promoting cycling (they made the news not due to the issue, but because it turned out violent).

You have some very CRAZY idea's, Max. When 99% percent of Americans watched the little news blip about CM they all laughed it up because they "got what they deserved". But then again, they all laughed at the gay pride parades and we all know how well accepted their ideals.

Max, you really need to stop making assumptions as to why people live longer, why they demonstrate, what effect pollution has people, when pollution is/was bad and worse, what is best "for the children", especially when you yourself state that you have a solution (bikes) to a problem that you admit does not exist (read your post and figure it out) This leads me to two conclusion:.

1. It shows your age and naivety, which is perfectly acceptable.

2. Shows you don't know what the heck you are talking about and make stuff up as you type.

I hope it is No. 1 as you seem very smart, just ignorant. Which can be fixed. :D

I encourage you to post some real facts about your sociological and scientific ideas about the things that "are not even known yet". I'm sure science would be interested in your findings.

Regards,

ehenz

SD Fixed

Originally posted by scarry
Puleeezzzz, you can rant all you want. Hostage taking...ROFLMAO.
Yea, last month we had Patricia Hearst riding with us.
Next month who knows, maybe the Talaban.

When a person is physically prevented from going some place they are legally allowed to go, and held for the purpose of a return of any sort.. That's hostage taking.

The cagers that have been blocked by larger groups of CM people were blocked from going where they wanted for the purpose of forcing them, and the police, and the city in general of pushing a political agenda. While there were not threats of death, there were threats of physical harm. Several CM people said "get out of your car and get beat".

Kidnapping, hostage taking, what ever you want to call it, that's wrong. And that attitude, and that type of action is what makes CM wrong on many levels.

scarry

Hey William, we can argue from now until doomsday, but you can count on one thing, the last Friday of every month will see CM carry on.
Feel free to hold your own ride in your town, make your rules to suit yourself. Obey every letter of the law. Get a permit, Ha that's funny, do cars need a permit for their daily Car Critical Mass.
If cars cause a huge trffic jam, do you accuse them of holding each other "hostage"?
Give money to your local advocacy group.
Start your own Car Critical Mass.
All you're gripping on this board is nothing but hot air.

khuon

Originally posted by scarry
Feel free to hold your own ride in your town, make your rules to suit yourself. Obey every letter of the law.

Most cyclists do that every day. They don't wait for a specific day of the month. They go out and ride their bikes in a lawful peaceful manner and it works out well for them. They love cycling and will talk to anyone about it who willing to listen. They do not however force their will upon others. This is the best form of cycling advocacy.

Originally posted by scarry
Get a permit, Ha that's funny, do cars need a permit for their daily Car Critical Mass.

The Car Critical Mass is not an intended result. It's a result nevertheless and that's another topic altogether. Congestion caused by cars happens despite intentionally following the laws to prevent it. Critical Mass congestion happens as result of intentaionally not following the laws to cause it.

Originally posted by scarry
If cars cause a huge trffic jam, do you accuse them of holding each other "hostage"?

Yes... to an extent. And that's what causes things like road rage. Is that the kind of feeling CM wishes to stir up?

Originally posted by scarry
All you're gripping on this board is nothing but hot air.

Blame that on the heat generated by all those Pentium4s and Athlons. :D

SD Fixed

Originally posted by scarry
Hey William, we can argue from now until doomsday, but you can count on one thing, the last Friday of every month will see CM carry on.

Yeah, all 12 in your town, eh?

Feel free to hold your own ride in your town, make your rules to suit yourself. Obey every letter of the law. I intend to uphold the law, and use proper channels to have it changed. I am part of society, and society has rules that should be followed until they are found to be unjust for the majority of a group.

Get a permit, Ha that's funny, do cars need a permit for their daily Car Critical Mass.

Called a car registration. Called car taxes. Called gasoline tax.

Any more dumb observations?

If cars cause a huge trffic jam, do you accuse them of holding each other "hostage"? Thier purpose is not to hold me there, as is CM's purpose. Each one of them simply wants to get front point A to point B. Even if it's an unneccesary trip from A to B,or there is a better chioce to get from A to B.

Try again with the dumb arguements.

Give money to your local advocacy group.
Start your own Car Critical Mass.
All you're gripping on this board is nothing but hot air.

All you are doing by advocating such stupid actions is making my commute more dangerous.

Did you vote in the last election?

SD Fixed

Originally posted by scarry
Hey William, we can argue from now until doomsday, but you can count on one thing, the last Friday of every month will see CM carry on.

Smaller when the games on, smaller when it rains, smaller when it's not popular. Bigger when it's cool, bigger when it's trendy, bigger when the weather is better.

Fair weather advocacy.

Dude, you suck.

Max

Originally posted by ehenz

I encourage you to post some real facts about your sociological and scientific ideas about the things that "are not even known yet". I'm sure science would be interested in your findings.

I heard it on the EuroNews that the children are most vulnerable to pollution, because they move more and breath more air. And because their noses are closer to the ground and to the exhaust pipes. EuroNews is respectable enough source of information.

I also saw on the EuroNews as the inhabitants of the village in Austria blocked the autobahn (highway), which goes through their village, because the level of some harmful substances was higher than safe level 22 (!) times. It is not the typing error - 22 times. They blocked it for 2 hours together with the village major, demanding the reduction of the auto traffic on this road.

Austria is the modern and tidy country. It is not like, if it were 1.5 times higher, or 3 times higher. Then one could hope that in his place it could be only 1.001 times higher or even OK. But having the concentration of the toxic substances 22 times higher than the safety level along one road, makes it quite possible that such a concentration will be also higher than the safety level along other roads. Maybe not 22 times higher, maybe only 10 times higher, or 50 times.

I wish I were young and naive. But I am neither :eek:

SD Fixed

Originally posted by Max
I wish I were young and naive. But I am neither :eek:

That would leave just old and ignorant then? But I know you not, so I will not label you as such. But, I'm glad that you post some facts. Sadly in this day and age, there is fact and counter act... So it's hard to prove a point sometimes for either side, right Max? But, at least you're providing perspective.

Back to Scarry: some of my final thoughts:

You seem to be a very young idealist. BTDT, got the T shirt and scars. Think seriously about the methods to promote your ideals. There is a slipery slope in life, and things get out of hand. Think of the example you set, and the path that you may lead people on with this vigilanti style message broadcasting.

You unwittingly represent me, and other riders. So, as my representative, I ask you to behave in an honorable manner. I've become more aware of my actions on a bike, because I don't want to give others a name. Your actions have an indirect affect on me and the rest of us. I hope you are aware of this fact. I am not someone who beats on cars with sticks as they ride by. But, I will bear that image if you act in that manner and it's projected on the news. My fellow riders will be at risk when a cager decides he's had enough of someone in a lane in front of them, and views them as an angry protestor and feels threatened enough to do something drastic.

And if you feel strongly enough, do not whine about being arrested for crimes you commit. Do not call the police "pigs, *******s, etc".. for doing the job that public sets for in law.

Do the right thing, not the might thing.

Max

Unlawful behaviour? Come on. They "block" the road for 5 - 10 minutes most.

It is in the best case, when there are 1000 riders or so. If it is 100 riders - the "blocking" lasts about 2 minutes.

Today one of my colleagues saw as the minivan killed the man. This is unlawful. It takes not the 5 minutes from a man, it takes the life time. Let alone the time his relatives will have to spend to bury the man, etc. One this accident took out many thousands of hours. Count all the time, which car accidents take out. The CM time is negligible in comparison.

Certainly, I do not support "beating the cars with the sticks". Still I see nothing wrong that birds of feather flock together and have some fun parade.

khuon

Originally posted by Max
Unlawful behaviour? Come on. They "block" the road for 5 - 10 minutes most.

There's blocking and then there's blocking. If you're in the intersection and blocking when your traffic direction has a red then you are unlawful. Same when you run that red light. This is the case regardless of wether you are a pedestrian, on a bicycle or in a car. It is the same regardless of the time period involved. You must have entered that intersection lawfully and in the process of clearing that intersection by the time you lose your signal.

Originally posted by Max
It is in the best case, when there are 1000 riders or so. If it is 100 riders - the "blocking" lasts about 2 minutes.

In my state, it is unlawful to hold of vehicular traffic of five vehicles or more regardless of the speed limit if I can safely pull to the side and allow them to pass. This applies to both cyclists and motorists alike. Sharing the road means cyclists and motorists should make accomodations for one another to contribute to safety and free flow of traffic.

Originally posted by Max
Today one of my colleagues saw as the minivan killed the man. This is unlawful.

The question of whether what happened was an infraction of the law is probably to be determined by a judge and/or jury.

Originally posted by Max
It takes not the 5 minutes from a man, it takes the life time. Let alone the time his relatives will have to spend to bury the man, etc. One this accident took out many thousands of hours. Count all the time, which car accidents take out. The CM time is negligible in comparison.

Pointing out the failings of someone else does not make the other's similar actions right.

Originally posted by Max
Certainly, I do not support "beating the cars with the sticks". Still I see nothing wrong that birds of feather flock together and have some fun parade.

Neither do I but if that "fun" infringes upon the rights of others to not be included in those same activities then it becomes a problem.

scarry

Dude, you suck.

BwaaaaHaaHaaa.:p

scarry

You seem to be a very young idealist

LOL. I'm 50. Been riding seriously for 25 years.
Average close to 5,000 miles each of those years.
13 times veteran of the Markleeville Death Ride, 9 times complete.
Rode the La to Mono Lake Bike-a-thon 7 times, twice LA to Reno.
I've climbed every high pass in the Sierra.
Yea I wish I were still a very young idealist.

Rode in SF during the 70's when there was no CM, and no SF Bike Coalition.
Things are much better now. And yes CM has a lot to do with that.

SD Fixed

Originally posted by scarry
LOL. I'm 50. Been riding seriously for 25 years.
Average close to 5,000 miles each of those years.
13 times veteran of the Markleeville Death Ride, 9 times complete.
Rode the La to Mono Lake Bike-a-thon 7 times, twice LA to Reno.
I've climbed every high pass in the Sierra.
Yea I wish I were still a very young idealist.

Rode in SF during the 70's when there was no CM, and no SF Bike Coalition.
Things are much better now. And yes CM has a lot to do with that.

I have doubt in what you saying here to a large extent. But I can, have been wrong in the past..

I am frequently in and around CA. I'd love to have coffee with you one day to hear what you've seen, and enjoy some of your perspective. PM me.. and it'd be great to see if we can share some miles and converstaion. Deal?

scarry

I am frequently in and around CA. I'd love to have coffee with you one day to hear what you've seen, and enjoy some of your perspective. PM me.. and it'd be great to see if we can share some miles and converstaion. Deal?

You bet.
How about the upcoming High Sierra Fall Century at Mammoth.
Saturday Sept 13
http://www.fallcentury.org/

Or the Grizzly Century near Fresno
Saturday Oct 4
http://www.grizzlycentury.org/

I'm signed up and will be there with bells on.

Here's my pic at the top of the 5th summit of this years Death Ride on my new Ti Aero Recumbent. Just so you know who to look for. And yes, I know I'm not normal.

http://www.westworldimages.com/cgi-bin/infopage.cgi?PhotoFile=%0D36630&LargeThumbFile=t36630.jpg&SmallThumbFile=&EventCode=52&PhotographerCode=1&LocationCode=133&FrameNumber=DSCF2192.JPG&Date=7-12-2003&Desc=&Price=1%3d20.00*12%3d16.00*13%3d29.00*14%3d34.00*5%3d25.00*11%3d45.00*6%3d45.00*7%3d80.00*9%3d45.00* 17%3d69.00*15%3d79.00*16%3d89.00*18%3d125.00*8%3d38.50&Time=17:21+PM&Upload=*

SD Fixed

Originally posted by scarry
[B]Or the Grizzly Century near Fresno
Saturday Oct 4
http://www.grizzlycentury.org/]

I'm interested in this, and will check it out.

And yes, I know I'm not normal.

And who amongst us is?

If I'm not at one of those, I'll be in the bay area one weekend... And it'd be something of value to hear about your point of view..

Even if you do ride a bent ;) !

randya

Well, you unbelievers could look at it this way--CM makes your local bicycle advocacy group seem very reasonable in their demands.

I've just spent some time looking at accident stats, and guess what? Despite popular media opinion, most accidents involving cyclists (at least in Portland, which is already a bicycle-saavy town) are actually caused by motorists, by about 60% to 40%. The most common cause is not in fact cyclists running lights or stop signs, it is motorists failing to yield R-O-W to cyclists, in a myriad of situations, led by illegally turning both right and left in front of either same direction or oncoming cyclists, respectively.

Just today I watched some SOB in a Ford F350 pass a cyclist and then immediately turn into a driveway in front of the cyclist, almost causing the cyclist to crash (I don't call them 'accidents' anymore). And the head of the city's police traffic unit had the nerve to tell one of the local TV stations recently that "Most of the crashes that we have are due to bicyclist error."

http://www.katu.com/news/story.asp?ID=59665

And I don't think I need to tell any of you what the injury stats look like--let's just say that motorists are rarely hurt in collisions with cyclists, no matter who is responsible.

This is what drives CM, and this is why it is not going away. If you think being polite is going to change anything in today's world, you're seriously deluded. CM is is the squeaky wheel that makes your local advocacy group look reasonable and gets cyclists' rights noticed, both on the street and by your local government.

Chris L

Just to dispute that:

-- About 85% of all bicycle crashes requiring medical treatment didn't involve a moving car at all; the bicyclist simply slid, fell, or ran into something. That’s why helmets and gloves are important.

-- In the 15% that were car/bike crashes, over 9 out of 10 were avoidable; they happened with crossing and turning traffic at driveways, intersections, and in bikelanes.

Study mentioned at http://www.bicyclinglife.com/PracticalCycling/VCIntro.htm

So who do you want to believe? Fact is, all this scaremongering is only going to serve to get cyclists banned from roads completely (as will CM in the long term). Is that really what you want?

khuon

Once again, I would like to pose the question...

How exactly do the actions of Critical Mass go about reducing cyclists-motorists accidents?

Clogging the streets illegally because there are bike-car accidents seems to me to be a form of vigilante retaliation and not advocacy. As a cyclist, I just want to be treated like any other road user... no better... no worse and certainly not as a soldier for some radical fanatical political war.

Max

Originally posted by khuon

The question of whether what happened was an infraction of the law is probably to be determined by a judge and/or jury.

That yesterday's accident was the ped crossing the street and the shuttle van hit and killed him.

The driver - most probably a harmless shmo, who lost concentration for a fractin of a second.

It seems to me that the whole transportation model, which makes it possible, is the infraction of the law.

Leaving home for work people are not sure if they return home and find their children alive. Because the casualties of the car violence exceed far and wide the war casualties.

It seems that the transportation system, as one of the participants put it, "sucks".

I envision in not so distant future the lawsuits against the industries, which make it possible, like we see now billion lawsuits against tobacco companies.

khuon

Originally posted by Max
It seems to me that the whole transportation model, which makes it possible, is the infraction of the law.

I think you need to look up the meaning behind the word "law" and fully grasp its concepts. You seem to be confusing law with justice. Laws are primarily protocols, procedures, a way of placing boundaries upon actions. A van striking a pedestrian is not inherently a violation of law. It is many things but until proper cause can be determined, saying it's an infraction of the law is premature.

randya

Originally posted by Chris L
9 out of 10 were avoidable; they happened with crossing and turning traffic at driveways, intersections, and in bikelanes.

Sure they were avoidable: the motorist turning in front of the cyclist could yield the ROW, like he's supposed to. But, who is educating the motorist? Certainly not the state....

Deny it if you want, but CM raises the visibility of cyclists' rights, and in a positive way, despite the media's best efforts to descredit CM.

I feel no less safe from (or more threatened by) motorists knowing that CM rides monthly.

Max

The law is written in letters. But the law shall also have the spirit. I am talking of the loss of that spirit.

Because the situation on the roads has changed significantly in the last 10 years. Congestion, pollution, violence are becoming widespread and omnipresent.

The law is begging to be modified.

The high taxation on the gas and cars (not high enough yet), which we can see in some European countries, the creation of car-free zones in the cities, are only the beginning of this process.

randya

Originally posted by khuon
Clogging the streets illegally because there are bike-car accidents seems to me to be a form of vigilante retaliation and not advocacy. As a cyclist, I just want to be treated like any other road user... no better... no worse and certainly not as a soldier for some radical fanatical political war.

Sometimes it seems like this discussion is just going around in circles...

1. It is not illegal to cycle in a large group. It's called traffic. Motorists do it all the time. At least twice a day, motorists clog the streets by doing it in an organized fashion. It's called 'rush hour'. Last time I checked, participating in rush hour was not illegal.

2. Treated no better or worse than any other road user? That often means dead. Cyclists are among the most vulnerable road users. There are 40,000 + road deaths a year in the US due to automobile violence, plus countless additional injuries, health, social and environmental problems caused by our automobile-based way of life. It seems to me like you've completely bought into it and you're completely desensitized to it. Very sad. The modern motor vehicle has only been around for a hundred years. People did fine before the arrival of motorized transportation as we know it and will continue to do fine after the cars stop running. The real question is, will we as a species survive the auto age?

3. Although I dislike the military analogy, if you want to view CM as a war against motorized violence, fine. If you don't want to be a soldier in that war, fine also--no one's going to draft you. All we're asking for is some solidarity.

khuon

Originally posted by randya
Sometimes it seems like this discussion is just going around in circles...

I'm sorry Dave... This conversation can serve no purpose anymore.

Originally posted by randya
1. It is not illegal to cycle in a large group. It's called traffic. Motorists do it all the time. At least twice a day, motorists clog the streets by doing it in an organized fashion. It's called 'rush hour'. Last time I checked, participating in rush hour was not illegal.

I never said that cycling in a large group was illegal. Traffic has rules too. Cycling legally (in my state) means that riders must among other things:

Ride as far to the right as is safe and practicable
Ride no more than two abreast except on paths or in designated bike lanes and shoulders
Obey all traffic signals and road markings

In every Critical Mass event I've seen, these laws were openly and blatantly ignored.

Originally posted by randya
2. Treated no better or worse than any other road user? That often means dead.

Try your scare tactics on a different crowd. I and many others have been cycling for much of our lives and we're still alive and kicking. We follow the rules of the road. We ride consistantly and assertively.

Originally posted by randya
Cyclists are among the most vulnerable road users. There are 40,000 + road deaths a year in the US due to automobile violence, plus countless additional injuries, health, social and environmental problems caused by our automobile-based way of life.

Yes, a lot of deaths can be attributed to the automobile. You're preaching to the choir. Please tell me how riding illegally, blocking traffic, enraging motorists (and pedestrians and other cyclists alike) will help make cycling any safer. The solution is not to go out and antagonise people. The solution is create more fuel efficient and cleaner burning vehicles, advocate a buildup of mass transit options, work to raise the level of driver training, call for greater enforcement of driving laws with stiffer fines and punishment for infractions, persuade and participate in programs to encourage businesses to support cycling as a form of commuter transportation... I could go on. All these methods are far more direct and less negative than Critical Mass.

Originally posted by randya
It seems to me like you've completely bought into it and you're completely desensitized to it. Very sad.

It seems to me you've bought into your own propaganda and you're completely out of touch with reality. Very sad.

Originally posted by randya
The modern motor vehicle has only been around for a hundred years. People did fine before the arrival of motorized transportation as we know it

One could say the same about the bicycle... or about any piece of technology.

Originally posted by randya
and will continue to do fine after the cars stop running. The real question is, will we as a species survive the auto age?

Motorized transportation will always be around in one form or another. There are quite legitimate needs for it. The solution to the problems generated by the side-effects of the automobile is not to ban it or get rid of it but to pursue the positives and mitigate the negatives.

Originally posted by randya
3. Although I dislike the military analogy, if you want to view CM as a war against motorized violence, fine.

What I call it matters not. Actions speak louder than words. If CM continues to be belligerent towards motorists and public authorities conflicts will continue. I still have not seen how CM will reduce "motorized violence". I have not seen one direct or indirect result of CM's actions that has gone to make cycling safer.

Originally posted by randya
If you don't want to be a soldier in that war, fine also--no one's going to draft you.

The actions of CM indescriminantly not only targets all motorists without prior circumspect but also bleeds over onto those cyclists trying to go about their own business in a lawful and cooperative manner. Critical Mass has a goal of being public and broad reaching in its efforts and in that respect they're effective. They're certainly noticed... but not in a good way. If you take a dump in a public pool and your crap spreads far enough then everyone is effected regardless of who they are, what side they're on and how much they try to avoid you.

Originally posted by randya
All we're asking for is some solidarity.

Solidarity implies an acceptance of the values for which Critical Mass holds. I think it's safe to say that there's a schism amongst the cycling community over CM because not everyone is willing to embrace the values of Critical Mass. If one of the goals of CM is to gain solidarity, I think it needs to change its tune.

nathank

hey scarry, randya and max:

i'm glad there are guys like you out there trying to make things better.

i've already commented a lot on CM and what i think, so i won't repeat myself... ok, a little... CM may have a few rought edges, but all in all in improves the safety of cyclists FAR more than it decreases cyclist safety by (supposedly) pissing off motorists -- again, mostly media hype as MOST motorists i have witness around CM support and view it as a parade/celebration.

on a similar note: how many motorists get pissed off when they have to wait for a parade or a funeral? ok, maybe some but they really shouldn't i don't think. is it "legal" for a funeral procession to hold up others? do they have a permit? do they run red lights? (often) does society now have built up animosity for dead people riding in herses? (ok, joke, couldn't resist)

to claim that CM significantly slows down motorists or contributes sigificantly to traffic is ridiculous! and then think if every CMer were in a car: there would actually be MORE traffic and MORE delay...

CM draws attention to some issues "society" wants to sweep under the rug (b/c there is so much money to be made from oil/cars): namely how many people are killed and how most people just blindly "accept" these dangers as collateral damage for the "right" to drive.

CM tries to improve communities and make them safer for cyclists, pedestrians AND motorists as well as reducing pollution (anyone like breathing dirty air?) and promoting fun and community enjoyment of the social sphere (sorry driving in a cage is not usually a social act, but riding a bike, especially in CM often is)

nathank

Originally posted by randya
2. Treated no better or worse than any other road user? That often means dead.

originally posted by Khuon
Try your scare tactics on a different crowd. I and many others have been cycling for much of our lives and we're still alive and kicking. We follow the rules of the road. We ride consistantly and assertively.

yes, i agree -- i have been cycling safely for many years and many miles and the "bicycling is dangerous" myth we should not believe...

but, that does not change the fact that driving is FAR too dangerous and that many people do not cycle because of real or perceived dangers of the auto.

the typical American driver does not expect or look out for cyclists and drives with an attitude of "oh, a few fender-benders aren't so bad. i have insurance and my desire(need) to get somewhere fast and comfortable is worht any risks"... maybe they don't think conscioulsy about, but that is about the normal attitude...

and yes, enforcement of driving laws and responsibilty for actions (so called "accidents") needs to be done too... as is the work done by advocacy groups and others...

but there is a REAL problem and "society" doesn't see it. thus, going through status-quo "proper" methods is most likely not going to effect real change --- i.e. we can get a few bike lanes and a little more bike awareness through advocacy groups, but a) governments won't spend the money and b) people won't care unless there is a SOCIAL need/reason/awareness that there is a major problem that needs change. THIS is something CM tries to do --- now mabye the motoring zombies won't listen, but at least it's an attempt. ok, i hope that made some sense. i am posting without editing it just b/c