Here the law states 50 MPH and over all bikes on sidewalk. Very few folks drive 35-40 as posted.

sidewalks here are pretty narrow, busy with pedestrians and children. They are no place to be ripping around like some cyclists do. At least once a week a pedestrian gets nailed by a cyclist.

Bikes have no business on the sidewalk, unless you a small kid under 6.

nuff said.


And this situation applies to anything I wrote, how ??

Where is "here"?

It doesn't matter.

Whatever happens in any given BF poster's neighbourhood always applies worldwide.

It doesn't matter.

Whatever happens in any given BF poster's neighbourhood always applies worldwide.

You are right, I forgot.:eek: Same truism also applies to extrapolating interpretations of local laws/traffic code to the entire world.

sidewalks here are largely deserted. Nobody walks. it's legal to ride on them. what is the big deal?

And this situation applies to anything I wrote, how ??

you were talking about how wide the sidewalks were, and how empty they were. I was offering another view, from another part of the country. Not everyone has wide, empty sidewalks, hence ones views about cyclists on sidewalks will be different.

:)

Where is "here"?


BC Canada, specifically Vancouver.

Not everyone has wide, empty sidewalks, hence ones views about cyclists on sidewalks will be different.

:)


Fair enough and agreed.

I agree that motorists see bikes on sidewalks and figure that the rest of us belong there as well. As kids these bikers were probably told to stay on the sidewalk by parents, and it is what they usually did except when they were being "naughty", and it became their custom. They also teach it to their kids. They also have the spectre of a child being run over. A great re-education is needed, but in these times where everyone already thinks they have a right to "free" healthcare, even after a life of drinking, carousing, and smoking, I think we will be hard-pressed to see government spend money on it. I do enjoy bike paths sometimes to get away from cars (and I can see wanting to be away from Florida drivers where the average age may be 80-ish and avearage eyesight 20/300). However, everyone should understand that the bike is a vehicle and learn to "drive" it properly.

How many people out there who ride in the road (as they should) then abuse their position? They run stops signs (many placed stupidly addmittedly), stop lights, drive the wrong way when it suits them, drive without lights at night, come up on the side of traffic that has already passed them safely. A month ago after passing a bike, I caught a red light. The bike overtook and passed me on the left through the red light. This is the stuff that really makes motorists fume. Another guy that ran a red light at night without a headlight and forced me to stand on my brakes to miss him angered me. He weaved through traffic in both lanes and even for a second on the sidewalk to get by a truck down the main drag and ran two more lights before disappearing in the night.

I don't claim to be perfect myself, but I try to do it right. I did get some satisfaction one day watching an Ann Arbor police officer stop a bike riding on the sidewalk when he also ran a red light. And 25 years ago I arrested a bicyclist for DUI (.29% BAC believe it or not). Mostly I warned bike riders who did not cause accidents and cited a few who did riding the wrong way and failure to yield, mostly. It is a low priority for cops, and the cop who actually cites a biker usually has to justify it and catches a lot of flak.

We need however to educate the public. Thanks to all who do so!

how do you get sidewalk riders to stop riding on sidewalks?

well designed, high quality, on-road bicycling infrastructure.

how do you get sidewalk riders to stop riding on sidewalks?

well designed, high quality, on-road bicycling infrastructure.

Certainly that seems to work better than expecting cyclists to read some book that tells them to simply ignore the honking and ride on.

Although frankly the end result seems to be curb hugging cyclists.

Perhaps the missing factor is "high quality."

I'd say!

sidewalk cycling and curb hugging occurs on wide laned roads to a greater frequency than roads with high quality bike lanes, gene.

well implemented bike lanes put riders away from the curb on roads with parking. on wide laned roads with parking, some riders prefer the sidewalks, many hug curbs and dart in and out of parked cars.

how do you get sidewalk riders to stop riding on sidewalks?

well designed, high quality, on-road bicycling infrastructure.

ya mean the already existing roads? :)

ya mean the already existing roads? :)

Yeah like that is drawing those sidewalk cyclists right off the cement onto the blacktop pavement...

Go back and read the OP... and take note of what is really going on out there and how sidewalk cyclists make life a bit harder for those vehicular cyclists out there.

There are a few hairy spots around town where I just don't want the hassle of dealing with buzzing and aggressive pr!cks going 80-100 kph.

So yes, then I ride the SW.
Slowly, carefully, never crossing a driveway or sidestreet w/o triple checking all directions.
And always give the right of way to the peds.

If you can even do a short trackstand, then you can maneuver around just about anything.

The truth is though the places that I wimp out for the SW are places where you rarely see a ped anyway.

There are a few hairy spots around town where I just don't want the hassle of dealing with buzzing and aggressive pr!cks going 80-100 kph.

So yes, then I ride the SW.
Slowly, carefully, never crossing a driveway or sidestreet w/o triple checking all directions.
And always give the right of way to the peds.

If you can even do a short trackstand, then you can maneuver around just about anything.

The truth is though the places that I wimp out for the SW are places where you rarely see a ped anyway.

Exactly what happens around here... so the earlier comment by Bushman about "already existing roads..." Bla! :p

[QUOTE=Bekologist;


Originally Posted by John Forester
I was never a dedicated transportational bicyclist.

john talks a cruel game, but he's never walked the walk....
/QUOTE]

As always, Bekologist, you make remarks that you think are relevant and significant, but actually mean very little.

Please tell us, Bekologist, the skills and knowledge about cycling that are only available to those who are, presumably like yourself, dedicated transportational bicyclists. Oh, yes, also include in your reply your definition of "dedicated transportational bicyclist", so that we can tie together the two parts of your reply.

We await the wisdom of your instruction, great guru.

Why does you admitting never being a dedicated transportational bicyclist have any thing to do with getting sidewalk bicyclists off the sidewalks, john?

I DO find it pretty telling, john, that you've relied on the automobile (looking at bicycling from the windshield, so to speak) to the extent you've never been a dedicated transportation biker....some of us that post here choose to ride every day, and avoid their cars if they own one (I own one) as much as possible.


How to get sidewalk cyclists off the sidewalks? ample, well designed, on-road bike infrastructure.

[QUOTE=Bekologist;


Originally Posted by John Forester
I was never a dedicated transportational bicyclist.

john talks a cruel game, but he's never walked the walk....
/QUOTE]

As always, Bekologist, you make remarks that you think are relevant and significant, but actually mean very little.

Please tell us, Bekologist, the skills and knowledge about cycling that are only available to those who are, presumably like yourself, dedicated transportational bicyclists. Oh, yes, also include in your reply your definition of "dedicated transportational bicyclist", so that we can tie together the two parts of your reply.

We await the wisdom of your instruction, great guru.

Yes, this is a repetition of a previous post. Unless you can provide convincing evidence that being a dedicated transportation bicyclist provides skill and knowledge that is otherwise unobtainable through normal cycling, I call your bluff. I also say that your ignorance of the basic knowledge of bicycle transportation, and your bigoted ideas about it, speak very ill for the kind of skill and knowledge you have acquired by being a dedicated transportation bicyclist.

dodger! and calling ME a bigot? look in the mirror, john.

sidewalks here are largely deserted. Nobody walks. it's legal to ride on them. what is the big deal?

If no one walks, why does your city bother to install sidewalks?

one more time.....


how to get sidewalk cyclists off the sidewalks?

redesign of public space to better accomodate bicyclists....

" ample, well designed, on-road bike infrastructure."

If no one walks, why does your city bother to install sidewalks?

LOL no one drives the speed limits either... yet they keep putting up those signs...

one more time.....


how to get sidewalk cyclists off the sidewalks?

redesign of public space to better accomodate bicyclists....

" ample, well designed, on-road bike infrastructure."

Other nations have kept sidewalk cycling within reasonable limits. Limit it to young children on small bicycles, with the public expectation that any older person will use the roadway according to the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles.

Of course, that doesn't fit the American pattern, because America has never had a public policy that normal cycling is done on the roadway in accordance with the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles. Legally, America had to accept most of that, because there is no other reasonable choice, though America thought that it had the answer by prohibiting cyclists from using the full width of the roadway, although they still had to obey the rules of the road. Now, of course, it has bikeways to provide that restriction, though cyclists still legally (though not socially) have to obey the rules of the road.

What you want, Bekologist, is to continue this practice of cyclist-inferiority, incompetent bikeway cycling instead of fighting against it for the welfare of cyclists as lawful, competent roadway users.

eff motorists, fight the system. get yourself a 12v FIAMM highway blaster 132db horn and USE IT.

What you want, Bekologist, is to continue this practice of cyclist-inferiority, incompetent bikeway cycling instead of fighting against it for the welfare of cyclists as lawful, competent roadway users.

:roflmao: john you so misread my intent! getting bicyclists off the sidewlalks thru redesign of public space is none of what you conjecture! you endlessly repeat that worn out, pedantic point of view of your insufferable whackjobbiness.

If I may be so bold as to post without the blessings of those that came before.:p The main problem where I live is the little brown men from south of the border. They almost never ride on the street and I live in an urban setting, no speed limit over 25mph. I frequently see helmeted bikers on the sw and wrong way riding. I'm going to start a campaign to get these people ticketed and not just a warning. maybe a $75.00 fine plus court costs will help, this is the law here.

Other nations have kept sidewalk cycling within reasonable limits. Limit it to young children on small bicycles, with the public expectation that any older person will use the roadway according to the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles.

Of course, that doesn't fit the American pattern, because America has never had a public policy that normal cycling is done on the roadway in accordance with the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles. Legally, America had to accept most of that, because there is no other reasonable choice, though America thought that it had the answer by prohibiting cyclists from using the full width of the roadway, although they still had to obey the rules of the road. Now, of course, it has bikeways to provide that restriction, though cyclists still legally (though not socially) have to obey the rules of the road.

What you want, Bekologist, is to continue this practice of cyclist-inferiority, incompetent bikeway cycling instead of fighting against it for the welfare of cyclists as lawful, competent roadway users.

John, I don't see 30 years of your effort working to get folks off sidewalks either. There are no bike lanes in the areas I am talking about. So facilities did not put cyclists on sidewalks. And nothing you are writing or publishing is getting them off the sidewalks.

And certainly motorists are not encouraging street riding... I guess not enough of them read your books.

Try again.

John, I don't see 30 years of your effort working to get folks off sidewalks either. There are no bike lanes in the areas I am talking about. So facilities did not put cyclists on sidewalks. And nothing you are writing or publishing is getting them off the sidewalks.

And certainly motorists are not encouraging street riding... I guess not enough of them read your books.

Try again. Are we forgeting that roads were paved because of the lobbying of the League of American Wheelmen? Boys, remember the history! ;)

Are we forgeting that roads were paved because of the lobbying of the League of American Wheelmen? Boys, remember the history! ;)

Don't fool yourself. American Wheelman may have lobbied for paved roads in the late 1800's, but the early roads, mostly rural, were paved because farmers had and applied the political muscle to pave all weather roads to get their products to market. Wheelmen's actual influence on these decisions is highly unlikely.

Regardless, no one gives a dang what the American Wheelman may have lobbied for over a hundred years ago. That was then, and this is now.

Sheeeoooot..... I didn't even know that Iowa had paved roads as late as WW2.:D In a state where hogs out number people no less. The wheelmen happened to include many of the wealthiest folks in the U.S.
I think this fact alone negates the graingers influence theory. As far as I know most produce/livestock went to market by rail like it should now. Sorry for the off topic snipe.

John, I don't see 30 years of your effort working to get folks off sidewalks either. There are no bike lanes in the areas I am talking about. So facilities did not put cyclists on sidewalks. And nothing you are writing or publishing is getting them off the sidewalks.

And certainly motorists are not encouraging street riding... I guess not enough of them read your books.

Try again.

Facilities put cyclists on sidewalks? Where did you get that misinformation? Motorist propaganda, continued for sixty years, is what has put cyclists on sidewalks, and I have often so written.

motorist propaganda puts bicyclists on sidewalks? :roflmao:

Motorist propaganda, continued for sixty years, is what has put cyclists on sidewalks, and I have often so written.Haha. Motorist propaganda-- good one, dude! That's worthy of adding to my sig.

Perhaps what you meant to say is that decades of you and your VC-ist followers exagerating the dangers of sidewalk riding (supported by some misguided safety nannies) have failed to stem the tide. The ridiculous nonsense you've been writing for decades aside, maybe it's a good thing that the VC-ist crowd now has another red herring (bike lanes) about which to engage in fear-mongering and upon which to squander whatever credibility they may have.

You crack me up!

Yea, you've got a clue. :rolleyes:

John Forester is a great sociologist in his own mind.

Don't fool yourself. American Wheelman may have lobbied for paved roads in the late 1800's, but the early roads, mostly rural, were paved because farmers had and applied the political muscle to pave all weather roads to get their products to market. Wheelmen's actual influence on these decisions is highly unlikely.

Scholars of automotive history have noted that LAW was a significant influence, but not the sole influence, in the 'movement' to pave roads in the US.

Regardless, no one gives a dang what the American Wheelman may have lobbied for over a hundred years ago. That was then, and this is now.

LAW was started by Pope to aid in the continued sales of his bicycles and bicycle-related products. It was a marketing scheme. Still, folks claim that LAB has today become nothing but a marketing scheme for big bicycle manufacturers and needs to 'go back to its roots,' when it was supposedly more concerned with cyclist advocacy.

Robert

Haha. Motorist propaganda-- good one, dude! That's worthy of adding to my sig.

Perhaps what you meant to say is that decades of you and your VC-ist followers exagerating the dangers of sidewalk riding (supported by some misguided safety nannies) have failed to stem the tide. The ridiculous nonsense you've been writing for decades aside, maybe it's a good thing that the VC-ist crowd now has another red herring (bike lanes) about which to engage in fear-mongering and upon which to squander whatever credibility they may have.

You crack me up!

Yea, you've got a clue. :rolleyes:

John Forester is a great sociologist in his own mind.

The history is quite clear. The fact that you refuse to believe the historical record in the specific subject about which you make so many claims, is just one more clear demonstration of the cyclist-inferiority phobia that prevents you from learning the facts about your own favorite subject.

High quality, on road bike infrastructure.

?? We have nice roads? What else do you need? A bike, a smooth surface, and a rider?

Well it comes down to this... am I faring better?

Let's do a bit of comparison:

The sidewalk cyclist is perhaps moving at 10-12 MPH with perhaps an average speed of 8MPH. They must be vigilant at all intersections. They must not hit pedestrians. There is no fear of the door zone, nor does the sidwalk cyclist have to check a mirror to watch for approaching motorists. Nor does the sidewalk cyclist have to be concerned with parked cars suddenly leaving their spot.



.

Of course cars never pull into or out of parking lots, or driveways. And if they did they would always look very carefully for bicyclists riding on the pedwalk.

Of course cars never pull into or out of parking lots, or driveways. And if they did they would always look very carefully for bicyclists riding on the pedwalk.
Or open passenger side doors:eek:

?? We have nice roads? What else do you need? A bike, a smooth surface, and a rider?

quite the oversimplified analysis of roads in america. does that explain why there are still sidewalk bicyclists?

i postulate that by increasing quality, on road bike infrastructure, more bicyclists will choose the roads over the sidewalks.

Simple and apparant.

yes. you have to be doubly vigilant on the sidewalk, but a nice wide dedicated lane on the road would be nice very often on the arterials.

When they feel as safe on the road as the sidewalk. Riding on a sidewalk is a pain with all of the mini-valleys from driveway exits and such.

motorist propaganda puts bicyclists on sidewalks? :roflmao:


Maybe that's a euphemism for the motorists yelling 'get on the sidewalk!'.

I reckon, since it's apparently such an effective method of influencing cyclist behaviour, that could be the solution to Genec's question. We should take a leaf out of the motorist's book and start yeling 'get off the sidewalk!' at every sidewalk cyclist we see. You know it makes sense.

They stop them easy here in Ga. They ticket them and confiscate the bike.

So how do I get all the sidewalk riders in my part of town to stop riding on the sidewalks? It sets up the expectation of motorists that I am doing it wrong when I ride vehicularly in the street.

Thus the guys riding "wrong" feel they are doing it right, while I get the honks and yelling...

I have passed out fliers at local bike shops and the library, that point to the Bike Expert (http://www.bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/index.htm) web page... But I doubt that these utility riders and students even go to bike shops.

Certainly I can't stop each and every one and try to convince them to ride correctly...

So I bear the brunt of the motorists opinions that the "other cyclists" are doing it right and I am doing it wrong.

This is one clear case where more butts on saddles does NOT pay off.

BTW for the record, there are no bike lanes involved. These are narrow old streets lined with parked cars.

The unanswerable question.... how does one change behavior that the changee does not think or know needs to be changed.
The posters on this forum are either dedicated to cycling or internet communication. Assuming that it's cycling; maybe we ought to consider the average bicyclist:

The majority of cyclists, by a large margin, do not have Madones, helmets or lycra shorts. They ride on the sidewalk when there are bike lanes ( sometimes because all the walkers are using the bike lanes). They completely ignore any traffic signals or rights of way. They ride against traffic. Then there are the kids...chaos.
I'm not complaining about them, believe it or not. I'm just highlighting why it is so hard to make a difference. It does take crusaders and extremists and is still almost an impossible task.

My suggestion is to continue setting good examples and hoping people are watching. Even if they aren't, it's the safest way to ride.

:beer:

ITs a situation there is no good solution for.

No one wants to ride on a sidewalk, but sometimes you have to.
If you are an adaptable, intelligent human it is no more problematic
than any other reasonable situation you encounter on your bike is.

I am actually allowed by law in my state.

Generally ... be corteous and careful.

If too crowded, dismount.

Look it up, do not believe me if you don't want to.

Summer sucks. You get all the people riding to get in shape around here and they ride the wrong way down the sidewalk and don't stop at intersections. I have nearly gotten creamed twice this summer when I stopped at a light and some cyclist come flying across the crosswalk and I was moving over to hit the cross button (there are some intersections that will never trigger for my bike) They dont' slow down. They are coming from a blind corner since the fences go right up to the intersections.
I saw one get hit a few weeks ago, well I should say hit a car. The car stopped was looking left had a clear road and moved out. Cyclist rams her and tumbles over the hood. He got a few yells out before noticing me on my bike walking up and tried to garner my support. I cut him off and told him it is illegal to ride on the sidewalk. It is illegal to cross a sidewalk riding a bike. It is illegal to cross a with dont' cross light lit on the signal and that I had dispatch on the phone and they were sending out a policeman to take statements so he should plan on waiting a few minutes. He was absolutely stunned and then starting ranting on how I was wrong and how I should support cyclist since I am one and what was I doing, he was going to get even with me.
The lady was very thankful that I was there and supporting her as was the policeman he was worried I was going to blame the motorist. After a few minutes the policeman ended up giving the guy a ride home with the bike as he wasnt' riding with ID. Not sure what happened after that but I never saw it in the police blotter. So I have one motorist who supports VC only a 250 million or so to go in this country and we are all set :-)

Wow. :roflmao2:

It's not illegal to bike on the sidewalks in TX, nor is an ID required. You and the police officer should try reading the laws you're trying to enforce on people.

Of course, the cyclist was riding like a dumbass so I don't feel sorry for him.

They've resolved that issue in my neck of the woods. There are no sidewalks where I live. Rural Central Bucks County, PA. This isn't a great thing for pedestrians, but it has made it clear that Bicyclists and their machines belong on the street.

The issue we are trying to handle at this point is that more often that not, they ride in the street against traffic. There are also so many roads in this area which require cyclists to take the lane preemptively 15-25 m ahead of time solely because of the hill crests and hairpin turns.

I think that people will eventually stop cycling on the sidewalks, but at what rate is dependant upon the whole culture in that area. I'm not speaking specifically the cyclists themselves, but as the town/city becomes more and more cyclist friendly, those who skirt the law (for which they may not even realise exists) will fall into line with proper legal practices.

As always, the best way to help create change is to lead by example.

Eric G. Elinow
www.bucksbicycling.com

LOL at this thread. It's legal to ride on the walk here, and I'm glad to have the option. I see so many more cyclists here than I did in the town where I used to live, and I'm sure the network of sidewalks makes the difference.